posted 02-24-2011 06:43 PM ET (US)         

Suppose, for example, this April I go into an Evinrude dealer to buy (as I am told) a 2011 Evinrude. After I get it installed, I see the manufacturing date of September 2010. Now I have an engine a year old, and it will always be considered a 2010, especially when I go to sell it 5 or 10 years later. The buyer will only believe the MFG tag. Isn't this deceptive, if he didn't tell me I was buying last year's engine? Under this exact scenario, a Mercury dealer would tell me they don't use model year anymore, so I look at the tag and see it's a 2010 mfg engine, and I could, if I was smart, get a lower price for last year's engine.

The poor fellow who started this post didn't make any mistake at all. He correctly indicated the engine year as 2008 (assuming that's what the MFG tag says). What's wrong about that? I don't think he ever used the term "model year". That was Jim's incorrect assumption.

We have this model year vs manufacturing year confusion with the old Whalers too. And it still exists, confusing as ever, today. As boats get old and change hands several times, most often people consider a boat's age the age that is shown by date of manufacturing on the VIN. I have a 1975 "Model year" Whaler, but it was "manufactured" in October of 1974. Here the model year designation is hurting me, since all other things being equal, it now would be more valuable as an older '74 instead of a newer '75. With classics and antiques, age counts.

posted 02-24-2011 11:06 PM ET (US)            

You can say, "I bought a Mercury FOURSTROKE motor in 2008," but this means nothing about the motor, when it was made, or what model it might be. You could have bought a motor in 2008 that was made in 2006.

When Mercury wants to clearly identify their motors with a particular year, they'll go back to the old way of doing things and put a model year identifier on the motors.

I get a laugh out of people trying to cover up for them with such inventive rationalization. Please, just imagine what consumers would say if Cadillac tried this nonsense with their cars.

posted 02-25-2011 12:11 AM ET (US)            

Why pretend your outboard was made one year when it was made the year or two before? Now you just know when it was actually manufactured and can discern what features and improvements it has by its serial number.

In this thread it is relevant when the motor in question was manufactured (2008) and the original subject line and post indicated this until Jim removed it.

posted 02-25-2011 08:57 AM ET (US)            

http://www.mercurymarine.com/_media/pdfs/productbrochures/ 4928_MY_elimination.pdf

How could it be more plain? A simple glance at the engine identifcation plate and you get not only the year, but the month in which the engine was made. This is a clear step towards honesty and accuracy, not the other way around. Abandoning "model year" designations also allows for more rapid product modification implementation. These sorts of changes are also noted in the "Production Era code" on each engine.

posted 02-26-2011 01:55 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

"Another Mercury "model year" thread. Who cares?"

---

Actually this was a thread about fitting a propeller for a Mercury FOURSTROKE. It only turned into a discussion about model years when people insisted that the motor could be identified by model year when clearly it cannot. I try to abide by Mercury's policy: no model year designation or identification for their products after 2007.

I also find it ironic that some people have a notion that it is critical to identify the Mercury FOURSTROKE motor down to the precise day it was manufactured. From this I infer they want to know this information in order to differentiate one Mercury FOURSTROKE from another, perhaps made on a different date. I am willing to believe that Mercury might change some features or details of their FOURSTROKE engine, and they have actually they said they will do this. What I do not understand is how anyone could possibly know when these changes occurred and what the changes were. I have never seen any literature on a Mercury website that provides any information about running changes in their models, and certainly no information in a well-organized manner where one could look up a particular engine and find out precisely how it fit into the evolution of manufacturing of that model. Actually, I think this is precisely the purpose for Mercury's decision: they want to make it difficult if not impossible for customers to differentiate their products in any way beyond the model name, in this case "FOURSTOKE EFI 60-HP." That is all the identification Mercury wants the customer to have, and they are doing a good job to make sure that is all the customer is going to get.

posted 02-28-2011 03:16 PM ET (US)            

"Your Mercury dealer can help you identify
the model code(s) on the engine(s)."

I'm going to go out on a limb here (not really) and assume that not only can your Mercury Dealer help you identify your model and Production Era codes, but as representatives for the builder of the engine they can actually tell you what updates are associated with each new code, if you ask them.

None of this is new. It wasn't long ago when I was at the Honda dealer looking for a part for my 18 year old (1993 "model year") car. Darned if the parts man didn't ask me to please go out and check the actual manufacture MONTH and YEAR (Sept. 1992; located on a tag on the door frame) to enable him to supply me the correct part. Using manufacture dates (and serial numbers) as a tool to track specific equipment features and components has been widespread for many, many decades. Precisely knowing this information can absolutely be critical for the consumer or repair person when ordering parts, performing diagnostics, making adjustments, etc. "Model Year" designations are best suited for convenient consumer consumption, sales, marketing, etc.

posted 02-28-2011 04:35 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

I recommend a 10-1/2" x 12" Stiletto Triad 3.5 or Turbo Hot Shot 3.5.

---

posted 02-28-2011 06:36 PM ET (US)         

Maybe now that 80% of the outboard industry (Mercury and Yamaha) is using the "date of manfacture" (calendar year)convention, Evinrude, Suzuki and Honda will eventually catch up and do the same. In the meantime they continue to use this automobile marketing gimmick to confuse outboard buyers, and not doing mid-model year upgrades?

I am glad to see that Mercury, and presumably Yamaha also, is contiually updating and improving their engines at any time, which is why manufacturing date and serial number are so important, as they should be. In addition, the major EPA mandates are all based on calendar year requirements. This catches Evinrude, Suzuki and Honda mid-model year, a real problem for the consumer.
Jim is telling us that the other guys, like Evinrude, don't do it EXCEPT at July 1st model year changeovers. Mid-model years changes can't happen since they peg their upgrades to model years beginning arbitrarily on July 1st, and to do so during the July to July model year would be deceiving customers, and they would not know if they were getting an earlier, non-upgraded engine. My guess is that they all do continuous upgrades anyway, particularly when a problem is discovered. I would hope they would not wait for the model year changeover to do these. So there goes that argument down the toilet.

posted 02-28-2011 08:58 PM ET (US)            

The entire purpose of dropping model year designators was due to the very heavy weighting in favor of the manufacturers and their boat-building partners. Mercury--whose motors sell almost always on the transom of a new boat--got tired of its dealers complaining about mixing of model year motors and boats, particular when the engine model year was older than the boat. This would happen when boat builders bought too many engines and had some left over from last year to use up on new boats. Such combinations resulted in the retailers having to make price reductions to sell the out-of-date motors that had been sitting on a boat transom for a year.

To test Larry's silly theory, just ask yourself if you would feel as though automobile manufacturers should end model year designators. Would you buy a new car that had been sitting on the lot for three years at the same price for one made last month? Of course not. Mercury Marine (and Yamaha) are trying to pull one over on the retail buyer.

posted 02-28-2011 10:34 PM ET (US)            

http://www.warnersdock.com/Motors/Hondaoutboards.htm

they are also screwing with us. I've seen Honda's participation in this fleecing mentioned on other sites as well.

Given Mercury, Yamaha, and Honda are all abandoning "model Year" designations in favor of providing manufacture dates clearly on each engine, and the well known fact that so many equipment manufacturers have done the same for so many decades, I think it a stretch to claim anyone here seriously feels Mercury is doing something special. If anything, the contrary is true. I also think your assumption that dealers will be successful selling much older stock for the same price as new stock to a buyer that knows how to read a plain-english manufacture date tag is erroneous. Sure a sucker is born every minute, but would YOU pay the same for an engine manufactured 3 years ago as one made this year? One that likely has good updates and improvements? I certainly wouldn't and I'm guessing I wouldn't be expected to either.

I do like to drink, but I'm still sticking with Larry's (and others) brand of Kool-Aid. It doesn't make me nearly so paranoid as other brands apparently can.

My prediction: Bombardier will also, finally drop the (silly) "model year" tracking system but still provide the excellent access to engine information they currently do. That being said, we have yet to establish that detailed, specific build information for each Merc, Yamaha, or Honda engine is actually difficult to come by. Having worked in the industry for quite some time I feel certain that won't be the case. Given that each Mercury engine displays a build date, a model code, a serial number, and a production era code, it's inconceivable to me that any attempts are being made to keep the engine's specific attributions a secret. Still, I'm sure you'll remain firm in your position that it's all just a ploy to dupe the stupid customer. It'll be fun to revisit this topic if (when) my prediction of Bombardier's following suit comes true. Thanks as always for the spirited discussion. It has however certainly run its course for me.

posted 02-28-2011 11:37 PM ET (US)            

First of all, Evinrude engines clearly show their manufacturing date. There is nothing to argue about here. You can see the data of manufacture right on the same embossed label that contains the serial number. Check this view of an engine from my boat:

http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/images/ETEC250HO/ emissionLabel.jpg
(The serial number has been obscured in this image intentionally.)

Second of all, Evinrude publishes a website that delineates very clearly and in a simple hierarchical format that is easily searched and traversed, all the details of all the part in every model. All of this is on an open and public website, and you do not need to go through a dealer or have special access to find this information.

Third, Evinrude models clearly delineate in their model designator the model year of the engine and the production sequence in the model year.

In contrast, Mercury offers none of this, except I assume they identify the manufacturing date. Please, one of you Mercury fans, give us a look at a clearly visible, plain text, easily found label on a Mercury engine that shows its manufacturing date. I think we need to see this to compare.

Mercury does not --to my knowledge--have a website where you can look up your engine based on its model designator or other information and see how it compares to others engines of the same model name in terms of parts or changes. If Mercury does, just reply with the URI for the website so we can see it.

Finally, Mercury does not--to my knowledge--include any sort of systematic or easily interpreted coding of the model designator so you can find the year of production and the manufacturing epoch or sequence. If they do, just give me a chart or listing or reference and some sample model numbers so we can see how this works.

posted 03-01-2011 03:19 PM ET (US)         

"Please, one of you Mercury fans, give us a look at a clearly visible, plain text, easily found label on a Mercury engine that shows its manufacturing date. I think we need to see this to compare."

OK. In this link, the Mercury SERIAL NUMBER LABEL seems to be much clearer and easier to read and find than the Evinrude sticker which only shows CE 12/2007. What does CE mean? Is it some Canadian or EU code?

http://www.mercurymarine.com/_media/pdfs/productbrochures/ 4928_MY_elimination.pdf

Scrolling down, the Mercury label shown says "June 2006" and also "06" shown in a square box at the bottom. No question here that even an uninformed consumer could determine this is a 2006 manufacture year engine.

Now that Honda has also switched over to this convention, we probably have close to 90% of the outboard market using it. I assume Evinrude and Suzuki will make the switch soon also.

posted 03-02-2011 03:24 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

Manufacturers have been making running changes in production whenever they felt like it, particularly if the change was necessary to avoid a problem or correct a defect. Making running changes is as old as the Model-T assembly line.

---

Yes, that is precisely correct and it is why there is no benefit the silly and antiquated notion of a "model year". There seems to be this illusion that a product can be defined by "model year", but changes creep into production year round, as they should.

The concept of "model year" is an old trick for the american automobile industry to fool the consumer into thinking they are getting something newer than it actually is.

Automobile manufactures have so embraced this ridiculous idea that in some "years" they resort to token changes in styling or graphic simply to create the illusion that their product in new and improved and you should therefore desire "this year's" model more than "last year's" model.

posted 03-02-2011 10:17 PM ET (US)            

Still to be seen: the publicly available listing of model changes and comprehensive part listings by production epoch. As I mentioned, I can look up any recent Evinrude engine by using its model designator and find its model year and production epoch, then compare it with other engines of different model year and production epoch.

I don't see how the consumer is supposed to apply any sort of model descriptor to a Mercury engine that involves a date when Mercury themselves doesn't.

posted 03-02-2011 10:36 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

It seems paradoxical for people to proclaim freedom of model year is a virtue, but in the same breath insist that motors without model year designators be identified by year.

---

Jim -- What does that even mean?

What part of the Julian calendar is inferior to the Evinrude calendar, and why?

Or to pose that question another way:

posted 03-02-2011 10:38 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

I can look up any recent Evinrude engine by using its model designator and find its model year and production epoch, then compare it with other engines of different model year and production epoch.

---

posted 03-03-2011 09:40 AM ET (US)            

The distinction (that is the actual topic here) is how a manufacturer identifies its engines. Evinrude uses a model year identifier which denotes a change in production evolution. Mercury (and others, but to keep this simpler I'll just say Mercury) no longer present any product differentiation to the consumer based on a date or epoch. I have a very recent catalogue from Mercury and it does not mention any dating, except to say the catalogue is effective after a certain date (in 2008). In this catalogue there is a engine called a Mercury EFI FOURSTROKE 60-HP. This is its model identification. Mercury has explicitly told us there is no model identification associated with a year. They don't have model years for their outboard engines any more.

If someone has a Mercury EFI FOURSTROKE 60-HP made in 2008, what is the basis to believe it is any different from one made in 2011? Mercury never tells us about any changes in production based on date. Please show me one announcement from Mercury where they said, for example, that after a certain date they changed some feature of this model.

Even when Mercury has made public announcements that they are changing significant components or designs in their outboard engines, they have failed to change the model designator. The VERADO and OptiMax are good examples. Any consumer who has paid attention to the VERADO production history knows that a significant change occurred after about two years of production, and among many boaters there is a common use of the terms "GEN-I" and "GEN-II" to describe the production epochs. Mercury has never put these changes into any model designator for their product. They call all the engines VERADO engines, and fail to distinguish between the production epochs. This has also been done in the OptiMax. Mercury promoted a substantive change in features and design as OptiMax The Next Generation, but actually never changed the model designation to distinguish. Now there are just OptiMax engines.

It seems to me that Mercury is really talking out of both sides of its mouth. It says at introduction there is a big change, but then it keeps the model name exactly the same. With no designation of model year to keep track of changes, and no change in model name to keep track of changes, there is really no way to keep track of changes, other than to accumulate and track these things yourself. You have to know that if you buy a VERADO made after a certain date you are getting the improved model. Why make this so hard? Just change the model name, or make a clear distinction among models of the same name by designating a formal production epoch known as the model year.

Mercury seems to want it two ways at once. No model year or model name change is used to obscure out-of-date but unsold product in the retail sales chain. Inclusion of a date of manufacture to try to lay off criticism of the lack of clear identification.

Also, there is nothing odd or deceptive about model year dating. Manufacturing traditionally changed production facilities during the summer, when workers wanted vacations and product supply lines were full of inventory. Plants shut down, machinery was changed, the new design changes were implemented. This is not a conspiracy, it is American mass production history.

posted 03-03-2011 11:58 AM ET (US)            

What is the difference between a Mercury EFI FOURSTROKE 60-HP made in 2008, and one made in 2011?

Nothing. Decades ago they would have changed the color of the decals and called it a "new model".

[quote]Evinrude uses a model year identifier which denotes a change in production evolution.[quote]

What about changes to an Evinrude motor within a given "model year designator"? How does one know what has been changed?

For that matter, what is the difference between a Evinrude E-TEC 60 made in 2008 and one made in 2011? They have the same model name. They appear identical. Or have they changed the color of the decals?

Please show us where it is written that the model name of a product is the key to understanding when a product changes.

If it is deceptive when Mercury can introduce a new and improved OptiMax or Verado yet maintain the model name, where is your outrage over the 1977 Montauk. Boston Whaler's new smirked 16'-7" hull was used for this model yet the model name stayed the same. Was Boston Whaler trying to hoodwink the consumer?

Throughout the 1980s, Boston Whaler published sales catalogs without any model year designation. No dating at all. They didn't even publish every year, sometimes going two years between catalogs. Why haven't we heard a tirade against Boston Whaler because of this deception?

You make a valid point about model year changes in the automotive industry coinciding with retooling and summer vacation. Indeed, Boston Whaler did the same thing. But this is the 21st Century, not Detroit in the 1960s or even Rockland, MA in the 1970s. I do not think that Evinrude shuts down every summer so they can put new fins or tail lights on their motors.

We are talking about outboard motors which are component of something else. Are you equally upset by the lack of a model year identifier of the steering wheel on your boat? How do you know if it wasn't made a year earlier than your hull was molded. Do your batteries have a model year identifier? How do you track changes in your Mills Canvas?

posted 03-04-2011 04:21 AM ET (US)            

Evinrude identifies the production epoch within a model year with a letter identifier in the engines model number. I assume that this refers to different production sequences. I suspect that during a particular model year production that all engines of a particular horsepower may not be made in one continuous production run. For example, an engine of a popular size, say a 90-HP engine, might be made in a production run of a week or two. Production of that model stops, while the factory produces other models. If later in the model year the production of the 90-HP model resumes, a different production run identifier may used in the model designator.

The reason there is no confusion about the differences in various Boston Whaler boats which employe the same name, for example MONTAUK, is due to the use of model year identification. Every MONTAUK also has a model year identifier. It is very simple to differentiate Boston Whaler boats by their model year identifier

posted 03-04-2011 04:33 AM ET (US)            

Tom--I do not have any concerns about model year identification of many products because for those products, using a steering wheel as an example that you suggested, there is not much concern about a product aging on the shelf while waiting to be sold. Also, steering wheels and other similar components are identified by model designators which are not ambiguous. Let me use a different component as an example to explain to you.

A battery switch is identified (typically) by a model designator. I have a BLUE SEA SYSTEMS model 5511e battery switch. If the manufacturer makes a substantive change in the design of this product, I anticipate he will give the new product a new model designator. He will not sell a substantively different product under the same model designator. An improved or changed model of a battery switch will get a different model designation. It might be a model 5512f, or some similar distinguishing designation.

My example is in contrast to the practice of Mercury in selling a VERADO motor where there is a substantive difference between two different eras of production but no change has been made in model identification. Mercury wanted to obscure the age of their products so their boat building partners would not have to explain why older engines were being used on newer boats. I have mentioned this several times and no one has offered any rebuttal.

posted 03-04-2011 04:47 AM ET (US)            

Use of cowling adornments is about the only way you can clearly identify Mercury outboard engine models. While Mercury has gone to some length to obscure model changes by keeping their model designators the same, they have provided some cues to the consumer about the production epoch of their engines by employing many changes in engine cowling graphics and adornments. Use of shiny metallic plastic appliques on the engine cowling is about the only method of clear identification of VERADO engines of the "GEN-II" production. Alterations in the cowling of the OptiMax engine cowling graphics is also important in identifying the OptiMax The Next Generation motor from the earlier OptiMax motor. In that case there is a highly stylized globe emblem decal on the cowling.

Evinrude engine cowling graphics have had some subtle changes in the color, weight, and shading of the typeface used for EVINRUDE in recent years, but these changes are very slight and would only attract the interest of people obsessed with typography. I do not see them as related to any substantive model designation changes. Evinrude relies on clear expression of the model designator with model year and production epoch data encoded in the model designator, rather than on cowling graphics as the key to identification.

posted 03-04-2011 10:01 AM ET (US)            

If my suspicions are correct, I think that you'd find all the answers to your questions by reading that brochure. To summarize:

"Mercury (and others, but to keep this simpler I'll just say Mercury) no longer present any product differentiation to the consumer based on a date or epoch."

Yes, they do. As noted in the brochure significant production changes are tracked via designators noted within "model codes" and "production era" codes. These codes can be found on each engine's id tag located on each engine's mounting bracket, as clearly explained in the brochure. I feel confident that "Gen 1" and "Gen 2" type engine changes would be trackable via these codes.

The information tracked within these Mercury codes is analagous to the information tracked through Bombardier's "Model Year" code designations. They serve the same exact purpose, accomplish the same tasks, they just have different names and go about the tracking process slightly differently. Regardless, neither company is withholding any information from the consumer nor keeping any secrets. Neither is inferior or superior to the other. All necessary "production era" and "model" information is accurately encoded and firmly attached to each engine produced with both companies being discussed. I assume Yamaha and Honda do similarly. It is absolutely necessary. For the service folks to properly care for the customers engines these sorts of things can't be kept secret. Likewise for the men and women behind the parts counter.

If I understand your dicussion correctly Jim, it does appear that Bombardier has taken a step towards better consumer access to engine change information by providing some online access to the codes. It is my understanding that for the most part, Mercury owners currently have to ask their dealers to correlate the various codes (afixed to their their engines also) to identify the corresponding changes and differences. I called my local Mercury dealer yesterday and he said tracking changes associated with different manufacturing dates, model codes, and production era codes was not a problem.

Given how often one actually shops for outboards I don't see this small additional dealer-required help as a big deal. I do support Bombardier's effort to make the info available online nonetheless. Good on them.

I think Larry's just having a bit of fun Jim. I also sometimes think that for some strange reason, some of us here are simply enjoying playing with semantics.

posted 03-04-2011 10:47 AM ET (US)         

In the software industry this has been learned the hard way. Microsoft some years ago decided to go to a model year approach thinking it would perhaps make more sense to consumers since more familiar products like automobiles are designated this way. So you have Windows 95, 98, 2000, etc. They still do this in their server software, now releasing Windows server 2008 R2 released in 2009. This lead to more consumer confusion since product delays and unforeseen circumstance mean some products designated a certain product year are released in a different year.

Contrast this to Apple who has consistently presented a relatively normal software version number system (Major.Minor.Bug) to the user, albeit with unique code names that most people tend to identify. So their current major OS is OSX (Operating System version Ten), with each minor release incrementing, so "Snow Leopard" is version 10.6, the upcoming "Lion" is 10.7. When regular patches are released it increments the bug number, so the current release of Apples OS is 10.6.6, unambiguously identifying which version you have.

Microsoft actually always internally maintained version numbers like most software, they just tried to avoid presenting to the consumer as much as possible. Now they have started to reverse course re-designating Windows to it version number "7".

I think the outboard industry could benefit by getting away from model years and clearly designating the revisions of the product through a increment version number much like software. Perhaps even using code names to denote feature releases to the consumer.

posted 03-04-2011 11:10 AM ET (US)            

Everyone simply says my 2009 Mercury 90 HP, which would be a perfectly accurate and acceptable description of a Mercury 90 HP manufactured in 2009. Why would a reader assume that the writer meant something other than what was written?

posted 03-04-2011 11:28 AM ET (US)            

I clicked to find out what was so interesting about a 1999 Dauntless 14 to generate 40+ responses - I figured the original poster had done something unusual/special and I wanted to find out what it was!

In an effort to accurately index information on this site for future search efforts, I suggest the title be changed to better reflect the content of this thread. That way it will be easily searched and indexed for reference.

posted 03-04-2011 11:30 AM ET (US)            

Because a Mercury 60 four stroke made in 2008 if different from a Mercury 60 made in the early 2000s, and different in ways directly related to what propeller would be best, it was truly unfortunate that Jim edited to the subject line to belabor his ongoing objection to Mercury's elimination of model years.

It is this deliberate and misleading meddling with what the OP wrote that I object too. The guy just came here asking a question, yet nearly the entire thread has been dragged into the weeds by the moderator himself.

posted 03-04-2011 11:40 AM ET (US)            

quote:

---

I also find a further irony on Larry's and Tom's defense of Mercury regarding model year identification. Both Tom and Larry only own Mercury engines that have clear model year identifiers.

---

No Jim, what is ironic is that my 1989 [model year] Mercury outboards do NOT have clear model year identifiers. There is no way I can tell what model year my motors are. Please come down to the marina and show where on my motors it indicates what model year there are.

Hell, I'd be satisfied if you could show me when my motors were actually built. Nowhere on my motors does it indicate what month and year my motors were manufactured.

I just looked at the Owner's Manual's for my motors. There is nothing on or within my Owner's manuals that indicates what model year they are. The only clue is, at the very bottom in 4 point type, "copyright 1989". Does that indicate a 1989 model year or merely a piece of literature written in 1989?

The only thing only identification on my motors is the Serial Number. So, in 1989 when model years were used, the consumer gets a serial number. Today the consumer gets both a serial number and a month and year and manufacture.

posted 03-04-2011 11:46 AM ET (US)            

It is ironic that Jim mentions Boston Whaler's use of model year identifiers. In fact, Whaler always used Serial Numbers to identify each and every hull they produced. It was only after Hull Identification Numbers (HIN) were federally mandated that Whaler also included a HIN on each hull.

Within each HIN is themonth and year of manufacture, exactly what you get with a new Mercury outboard, only you do not need a decoder ring to figure it out.

posted 03-04-2011 01:40 PM ET (US)            

--serial number
--date of production (by month and year)
--model identifier which includes the model year and the production epoch

It does not seem possible to me that one could provide more information about their motor than the competitors provide, and, yet, somehow the additional identification information is considered to be worse than not having it. If model year and production epoch identifiers are not important to you, you can ignore them on an Evinrude. On a Mercury you cannot ignore what was never provided.

I would agree that use of some clearer identification of model sequence in the hierarchical numbering as used in software could benefit consumers in outboard motors, but I find that model year identification (Evinrude) is better than no identification (Mercury).

posted 03-04-2011 02:19 PM ET (US)            

- Serial number
- Date of production (by month and year)
- Model identifier which includes the model year

Mercury provides:

- Serial number
- Date of production (by month and year)
- Model identifier which does not include the model year

posted 03-04-2011 02:26 PM ET (US)            

"If model year and production epoch identifiers are not important to you, you can ignore them on an Evinrude. On a Mercury you cannot ignore what was never provided."

Please Jim, read the brochure and tell me how this information is not being supplied by Mercury's current system. True, Mercury uses what they call a "model code" instead of a "model year" and within that code is a "production era" designation instead of a "production epoch." They both also provide manufacture dates and serial numbers too.

So what is the substantive difference between the information available from a Mercury's tag and an Evinrude's tag? Can anybody point me to a real difference?

posted 03-04-2011 02:40 PM ET (US)         

So now that the debate and personal attacks have ended, let's have a vote!

"Do you think Mercury, Yamaha and Honda have done the right thing in eliminating MODEL YEAR (July to July) convention and switching to the YEAR OF MANUFACTURE convention?"

Vote with a simple YES or NO.

I'll start.

YES

posted 03-04-2011 02:56 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

...why [was it] important to know that the Mercury 60-HP FOURSTROKE EFI engine was made sometime in 2008?

---

Jim -- I've already explained that. A Mercury 60 four stroke made in 2008 has a different WOT range than a Mercury 60 four stroke made in the early 2000s. The WOT range is very germane to the selection of a propeller for a particular application. By removing reference to the motor in question being from 2008, you have clouded the discussion.

A link to an explanation if why this is important is here:

posted 03-04-2011 03:11 PM ET (US)            

However, I do not think it is reasonable to conclude that because a Mercury consumer cannot access all this information online, the consumer is being deceived. While less convenient, I can always call my mechanic or dealer and have him run my serial number if a question I have about my motor is not easily answered online.

But again, none of this has anything to do with model year identifiers. Evinrude could just as easily index their motor information by serial number and/or date of build, indeed that may be how they do it now.

As to catalogs referring to model year, that can just as easily be done by calendar year, Evinrude simply chooses not to do it this way.

Nor does any one year's catalog document changes during that period. As you yourself have already pointed out above: "Manufacturers have been making running changes in production whenever they felt like it."

posted 03-04-2011 06:19 PM ET (US)            

My vote in Larry's poll is YES.

I think that Jim's heavy handed editing does make this site better overall. It can be very frustrating though. Expecially in cases when the original poster provided information that is easily understood by a reasonable reader.

Jim's obvious disdain for Mercury along with his denial of this bias can also be quite a distraction. Any reasonable person who reads this thread or the other one about the Mercury 2+4 engine can clearly see he has an anti-Mercury agenda.

Having said all that, I want to thank you Jim for providing us all with this very valuable resource. Your influence here, while occasionally frustrating, is very important to making this site the wealth of information that it is. You have my sincere appreciation.

Disclosure. I am a happy owner of an Evinrude E-TEC.

posted 03-05-2011 12:10 AM ET (US)            

The notion of model identification is most important at the time of original purchase. Having the date of manufacture on the engine is not particularly important. When you buy an engine you know that it was made in the past--that is obvious. What is a concern to a buyer is how long in the past was the engine made, and the unit of measurement is not necessarily in terms of time elapsed since the engine was manufactured, but really more about how current is this engine compared to the engine being made today.

Now it is all well and good that I can look at a Mercury engine and see the date of its production, but this tells me nothing about how that engine compares to the current model being built. For that comparison you need to have some sense of the production epoch, and that is what you get from a model year indication.

Mercury really tries to spin their approach two ways at once. First, they tell you they identify the engine by date of production. OK, that's fine. I think they have to do that anyways, probably due to some federal regulation. But they are not concealing from the buyer the date of production. But because they have no indicator of production epoch, Mercury does conceal from the buyer any sense of how a particular engine compares to one that would be made at the present day.

If I go to a Mercury dealer and see a 60-HP FOURSTROKE EFI sitting on stand, I can look around for the label that tells me when it was built. Let's say I am looking at this engine on March 5, 2011 and I see it was built in January 2010. I know the engine was made 14-months ago. But I have no way of knowing if this engine is the same as one that is being built today in Fond du Lac. Maybe there has been some substantive change in design. How would I know? The less the consumer can know about this, the better for the dealer, who would like to sell you that engine on the basis that it is "as good as new"--as good as one made yesterday.

posted 03-05-2011 12:41 AM ET (US)            

Regarding the charge that anyone who writes " a 2008 Mercury FOURSTROKE" was not implying a model year:

For decades we have been identifying outboard engines and many other products by their model year whenever a particular year is mentioned in conjunction with identification or distinguishing of the particular product. I do not find it reasonable that this practice should suddenly be abandoned because Mercury engines have dropped model year identification, and we all will automatically change our perception of any mention of year in association with a product to refer to the calendar year in which it was actually made.

Here is an example: I bought a FORD car in November 2010. The car is a model year 2011. According to my critic who suggests it is my misinterpretation of how yearly dating is to be used with products in the post-Mercury era, I should now go around telling people that I have a "2010 FORD," not a "2011 FORD."

When I want to buy a replacement part for it, should I look up the car as a "2010 FORD" or a "2011 FORD" in the part supplier catalogue? Of course, I will refer to it by its model year designator, 2011, just like everyone else will.

Regarding the suggestion that the serial number is the most precise identifier: yes, I agree, but what buyers keep track of all the serial number ranges of every engine brand and model? There is little chance a buyer will be able to recognize the production epoch of an engine by its serial number. That's why we have used model year identifiers for the past 100-years of manufacturing products like outboard engines.

posted 03-05-2011 11:04 AM ET (US)            

You really are ignoring reality. Every Mercury outboard has a model number. The model numbers change as the outboards do and you can use the model number to determine exactly what production epoch the motor came from. The only difference from Evinrude is that there is no arbitrary "model year".

posted 03-05-2011 11:30 AM ET (US)            

quote:

---

It really seems quite clear to me that the main reason behind dropping model year designators was to disarm the buyer from having any sort of leverage in buying a new motor that was made more than a few months prior to the purchase. Buyers have always demanded a discount for buying out-of-date merchandise, in everything from fashion to cars. Any manufacturer that drops model year identification is trying to help their dealers be able to sell dated merchandise without having to offer a discount on it. That is the real bottom line to the model year identification dispute.

---

That is the Oliver Stone style conspiracy theory interpretation of what the outboard industry has done. It is human nature be suspicious of change and things that are new. But it is also possible, indeed even more likely, that model years for outboards are going away because manufactures do want to reinvent their product every single year or maybe want to introduce changes at any point in the calendar year. They may be tired of having to come up with new decals every summer.

The argument that the secret reason behind the dropping of model years for outboards is to sell the consumer old outboards does not really hold water. There has never been an outboard dealer who can make a consumer do what they do not want them to do.

When I go to the grocery store to buy a quart of milk, there is a cooler case full of quarts of milk. Every carton has a date on it. The dates are not necessarily all the same even though all the cartons look the same. Often the older dated quarts are closer to the door so the consumer is more likely to grab them. That is sensible; the store wants to get rid of old stock before newer stock.

The consumer is free to look at the dates and decide if he wants to buy it. I often grab a quart with a newer date. As the dates on the cartons grow older, a quart of milk is increasingly likely to go on sale and be sold at a discount. This is really no different then an outboard motor identified by model year or date of manufacture. Some consumers ill take advantage of this information, others will not. There is nothing about a model year identifier that changes this reality or makes anything better for the consumer.

If you are going to buy an outboard and do not want one that is a year old, a model year identifier will into help you, because the motor might be a year old.

posted 03-05-2011 11:37 AM ET (US)            

Model number: 1150412G

Serial number: OC217477

Not only is this information on the motor itself, but I also have it on these neat little wallet sized Owner's Cards.

When I shop for parts, I use the model and serial numbers to look up the appropriate parts diagrams here:

[ur;]http://www.mercurypartsexpress.com/us/parts-search.html[/url]

posted 03-05-2011 04:20 PM ET (US)            

On the other hand, if you told me your motor was a 19xx model year, I'd feel like I knew something about it.

I like your analogy to milk in a cooler, but there is one incongruity with outboard motors: milk is perishable. As milk sits in the cooler the clock is ticking on its opportunity to be sold. Somewhere in the rather close future there will be a time when the milk has lost its opportunity and its value has decreased to zero.

When an outboard motor sits on the transom of a new boat at a dealership it is aging, but its value is not going to perish. The longer it sits the older and more out of date it becomes, and the dealer may have to adjust his price (downward) in order to sell it. But a motor could sit for three years, and a dealer could still claim it was the same motor in every detail as the one being made today, particularly if the manufacturer did not make any change in model designator. If the manufacturer keeps on making the same motor, or if he keeps on calling the motor he makes currently by the same name he called the one he made in the past, the dealer will have an opportunity to continue to sell the older motor as if it were the current motor. In this way the model naming convention can help the dealer.

I want to make something clear about my position with regard to Mercury motors: I do not have any intention to try to obscure the model name of any Mercury motor. I welcome any information that identifies a Mercury motor. But I don't want to carry on any use of model-year identification of Mercury motors simply because Mercury has made it very clear that there is no such thing anymore. I believe some people want to talk about their Mercury motors which have been made since c.2007 as if they still have a model year designation. This cannot be done, and, again, it is because Mercury says their motors do not have model year designations. I really welcome information about how to properly identify the model designation of a Mercury motor made after c.2007, that is, following the announcement that Mercury motors no longer have model year designators. However, I don't think this can be done properly by just mentioning the date of production. I don't know of any way for a motor that was built on a certain date to become clearly identified by model. What is needed is some sort of model name or model number, and, if the model name or number is not easily interpreted, some sort of chart or code book where the model name or number can be decoded into clearer terms.

posted 03-05-2011 04:37 PM ET (US)            

Any information beyond that and you are going to have to use a model number and/or serial number to figure it out. You may be able to figure it out online or you may have to make a phone call.

Either way, and regardless of brand of outboard, it has nothing to do with a model year designator, that is a different discussion.

You are right about milk: it goes sour with time. Outboards to not go sour with time. If an outboard at a dealership is three years old and the same model is being made today, with no changes, what is the difference to the consumer?

posted 03-05-2011 04:51 PM ET (US)            

I agree that a three-year-old but unused new outboard is not likely to lose too much value, as long as it is of the current model.

No one responded with any examples of Mercury production codes, so I had to do my own research. It appears now that the proper identification of production epoch for a Mercury motor made in c.2007 or newer is contained in the next to last letter of the Mercury Model Code Label. This field of the code used to be employed to designate model year but is now used to designate production era. This is detailed in Mercury's own literature--see the link far above.

For me this sets a new standard for identification of Mercury motors made in c.2007 or after: these motors must be identified with their Mercury Model Code Label's second-to-last character. For example, if we could assume that the original motor (whose incorrect description formed the basis for this long sidebar in our thread) we have been discussing had a Mercury Model Code Label whose second-to-last position contained the character "M", the proper way to identify this motor would be to say:

"I have a Mercury 60-HP FOURSTROKE EFI whose Mercury Model Code Label second-to-last character is M...."

posted 03-06-2011 07:11 PM ET (US)            

I plan to expand on this by presenting new guidelines for describing all Mercury motors made after 2006. We will completely eliminate any mention of a date or year, just as Mercury has requested, and insist that the motors only be identified by their model name and the next-to-last-letter of the Mercury Model Code Label. As Mercury has described in their literature, any reference to dates are completely insignificant, and this next-to-last-letter in the Mercury Model Code gives all the information needed to identify the engine's production epoch.

Mercury also wisely points out that engine running time is stored in their engine's controller, so this further eliminates any sort of reason to mention a month and year in association with any Mercury motor.

This has been a great discussion, and I sincerely appreciate the help given--even if no one actually presented this information in the discussion it was at least linked to so I could find it.

Consider this the end for all mentions of month or date of production on any Mercury engine and, of course, any sort of misguided notion of model year designation after 2006. We are in the what I can call the NEW MERCURY ERA now, where the next-to-last-letter of the Mercury Model Code Label has become the defining characteristic for their engines.

posted 03-07-2011 08:17 PM ET (US)            

Mercury has changed everything. Mercury clearly instructs us that in order to apply some sort of sense to where in the model production a particular Mercury engine is located the only possible mechanism that can be used is the next-to-last-digit of the Mercury Model Code Label.

I realize that expecting people to go around talking about their engines in terms of the next-to-last-digit in the Mercury Model Code Label is a bit of a stretch from past practice, when everyone just talked about a simple to grasp concept like model year designator that has been in use for a hundred years. But, Tom, this is a new century, and if we are going to talk about Mercury outboard motors in this new century we are just going to have to completely forget about model years and change over to the next-to-last-digit of the Mercury Model Code Label. This is Mercury's decision and theirs alone. and, given the great respect I have for Mercury, I think the only decent thing to do is to abide by their request. The next-to-last-digit of the Mercury Model Code Label is the new and only way to identify a model of Mercury outboard engine.

And I know it is hard for people to think in terms of an engine's age by engine running time. It was so much more convenient to just mention an age in terms of time elapsed since purchase. But Mercury is totally correct: the only reasonable measure of an engine's age is the number of hours of running time. And since Mercury engine can now store and display their age in terms of running time hours, that's the best way to describe them.

posted 03-07-2011 08:46 PM ET (US)            

I also suppose if you ask me how old I am, you will not be satisfied if I tell you I was born in 1962. You'll also demand I provide my D.O.B., Social Security Number, Birth Certificate and a set of Finger Prints.

posted 03-08-2011 08:37 PM ET (US)            

Readers should not think that this idea is something I came up with. Actually it was only a day or two ago that I finally found Mercury's real answer--and I have to thank the Mercury supports who relentlessly guided me to the answer in the Mercury literature. Let me be specific:

Thanks to adlert who first point to the Mercury Marine literature.

Thanks to L H G who boldly stepped forward to be first thank adlert for the pointer.

And thanks to Tom W. Clark for his persistence in leading to see the wisdom of following Mercury's recommendations.

This discussion--which some think of as a distraction--has actually been extremely important. It is the first time that Mercury's bold new vision of engine model identification has been clearly presented. We must all learn from this, and become comfortable with referring to Mercury outboard engines by the next-to-last-character of their Mercury Model Code Label as the only way to identify the model of motor being discussed.

ASIDE: I remain a very easy-going and friendly guy. I just like to get to the bottom of things, to get to the really definitive answer. And in this case of identifying motors, I have finally learned the proper way to identify Mercury outboard motors. To be really honest, I am sorry I did not research this better earlier and set this out for readers back in 2007 when this procedure first changed. I don't think Mercury was as forthcoming about their procedures back then. But now with their own literature as guidance, they have shown us the path.

posted 03-08-2011 09:09 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

"I miss the old friendly JimH who didn't always have to be right."

---

This is an interesting observation. In this discussion it was shown that I was not right. I was not right about Mercury failing to provide a simple way to identify the production epoch after doing away with the model year designator. I was in total ignorance of Mercury's adoption of the next-to-last-character of the Mercury Model Code Label as the new designator. Up until a few days ago I was saying there was no way to identify a Mercury motor, and then I was corrected. I was shown the Mercury Model Code Label and its important next-to-last-character. I freely admit this error on my part. As I already said, it was unfortunate that it took from 2007 until 2011 for this important new information to come to my attention. If I had known about this earlier I would have conveyed this important information.

When I am wrong, I admit it. I was wrong about Mercury Marine. Since 2007 they have been clearly identifying the model of their engines by the next-to-last-character of the Mercury Model Code Label, and I was completely ignorant of this until a few days ago.

posted 03-10-2011 01:24 PM ET (US)            

why are there 84 responses under performance, when only 2 or 3 actually are performance oriented?
thanks for the info, some of good folks need a hobby - my wife just took up crocheting and she caught on quite quickly...

posted 03-10-2011 03:29 PM ET (US)         

http://www.nymarine.ca/index.html

posted 03-14-2011 10:24 AM ET (US)            

Mercury never implied that there would be anything wrong, inaccurate, or inappropriate about referring to their engines using their date of manufacture which necessarily would include the year in which an engine would made. In fact, the opposite is clearly true. They are encouraging owners to refer to their engines based on date of manufacture, including year.

The VERY first title (in all caps and bold) on that linked brochure is:

"REPLACING "MODEL YEAR DESIGNATION" WITH "DATE OF MANUFACTURE"

posted 03-14-2011 11:06 AM ET (US)            

My point is...this is what the OP's thread now reads and honestly I wonder if that question is what he initially was looking for. I think it is stupid and trivial and should cease but again it is not my site. "Hello. We are installing a [mentioned model year but it is in the epoch when Mercury engines no longer have any model years--jimh] Mercury FOURSTROKE EFI 60-HP on our [1999] Dauntless 14. [The engine does not] have a propeller, yet. [Solicits] any ideas on pitch. Normal cruising will be two adults [who are] not the real big type. Anybody [reading this article] have this set up? Thanks."

posted 03-14-2011 12:08 PM ET (US)            

From those last six characters, it appears that the first three characters represent specific sub-models of the motor. For instance “DCX” appears to refer to the white model with a 25” shaft, while “DCZ” appears to refer to the white model with a 30” shaft.

There are at least two different versions of the “DCX” model listed for the 2010 E-Tec 225, one with the last three characters identified as “ISE”, and one with the last three characters identified as “ISF”. I'm not certain of the differences between these two motors, but I suspect that the “ISF” is a later version of the “ISE”. (Evinrude does not appear to make the differences in these motors readily available to the casual web surfer.)

All of the above leads to one inescapable conclusion: If we are going to talk about Evinrude E-Tec motors on this website, such motors should be identified not only by their model year, but also by the last six characters of their model number. After all, this is the way that Evinrude distinguishes between the various models of its motors. If it’s good enough for Evinrude, it should be good enough for the rest of us.

If all of the Evinrude owners will agree to this naming convention, then I'm sure all of the Mercury owners will agree to identify their motors by month and year of manufacture followed by the model number.

posted 03-14-2011 07:03 PM ET (US)            

Kevin--Most of the differences in model codes for E-TEC have to do with the shaft length and the gear case option, not with changes to the actual engine or power head. Evinrude implements model changes based on model year designation. Evinrude does provide an annual listing of model changes that have occurred with the new model year production.

I have asked for this several times but so far there has been no reply, but I am persistent and will ask once more:

Please point me to some source of information where I could discover the maximum engine speed for a Mercury FOURSTOKE 60-HP EFI based on knowing its month and year of production. This was the point of all this discussion. That somehow I cheated the world from knowing this information because I did not include the year of production of the engine under discussion. I will be pleased to agree with everyone that I deleted useful information when they show me where I can look this up on a Mercury website. By the way, I think the answer is you cannot look this up on a Mercury website, and it is because Mercury does not want to give that information out. But, please, just point me to the website were you can find this information and I will be pleased to go there and get it.

I know I can go to the current specification for the Mercury FOURSTROKE 60-HP EFI and get that information, but how would I know that it applies to a particular range of engines by their month and year of production.

posted 03-14-2011 07:20 PM ET (US)            

According to Mercury, every outboard engine made in the USA since 1998 has had to include a label showing the month and year of production. If identifying the model of an outboard was best if based on the month and year of production, I don't understand why it took until 2011--13-years later--for everyone to decide that this was the best method of identification of production epoch for determining an engine's specific model. For the last 13-years people have been saying things like, "I have a 2001 [Brand] outboard engine..." and everyone understood them to mean a 2001 model year.

Now, 13-years after outboard engines contained a label that identifies the month and year the engine was built, suddenly it has become important to identify the engine by its month and year of production instead of by its model designator. Now by "model designator" I mean, in the case of Mercury outboard engines, the Mercury Model Code Label and the important next-to-last-character of that label.

Previously everyone used model year identifiers, and--hold on to your hats--the next-to-last-character of the Mercury Model Code Label used to indicate--are you ready--the model year designator/

Following the explicit directions from Mercury, you are to identify the model of your outboard engine and its production epoch by the next-to-last-character of the Model Code Label, which until a few years ago was just a single character coding of the model year.

posted 03-15-2011 07:37 AM ET (US)            

Well, I would think that this info can be found in the owners manual. I would also think you can simply call your Mercury dealer, give them the manufacture date and they can tell you too.

If you absolutely must have max rpm operating range available online, by year, then at a minimum you can go to a site such as this:

http://www.piranha.com/Mercury_Outboards.php

posted 03-17-2011 12:17 AM ET (US)            

The fundamental problem that is glaringly apparent to me is that the current situation with Mercury outboard engines is that there is, in reality, no way to tell what you are buying anymore. You might see an engine at a dealer that was made 9-months ago, but there is no information available (as far as I can tell) where you can deduce if that engine is the model currently in production.

There is no way to tell when the last actual change in production occurred, unless Mercury begins to publish this information somewhere. I suppose a buyer could call Mercury's hot-line and ask for this information.

For all we know from what Mercury has provided on-line, a 60-HP FOURSTROKE EFI that was made in January 2008 could be the same as the engine currently being made today, or it could just as easily be ten model changes old. There is no way to tell. And you don't have to be on the lunatic fringe to see how this benefits Mercury, Mercury dealers, and Mercury boat-builder partners. It does not benefit the consumer at all. What Mercury has done is to rather boldly hide from the consumer all of the model changes that have or will occur in their production of this engine.

posted 03-17-2011 05:59 PM ET (US)            

It used to be that we gave greater credence to information coming directly from a real person at a manufacturer, but now apparently looking something up on the internet is the only way to get credible information. When did that change occur?

If you are in a showroom and you want to look up the model code of an Evinrude or Mercury, which is easier? Calling Mercury Customer Service (assuming the dealer has not already told you the information you need) or go find a computer and start searching databases?