1978 Outrage 21 - minimum power requirements

  ContinuousWave
  Whaler
  Moderated Discussion Areas
  ContinuousWave: Whaler Performance
  1978 Outrage 21 - minimum power requirements

search | FAQ | profile | register | author help

Author Topic:   1978 Outrage 21 - minimum power requirements

flippa posted 03-01-2011 09:23 AM ET (US)
I am looking for advice on repowering my 1978 Outrage 21.
I have a 2001 Optimax 150 currently on the boat. The motor was just awesome on this hull and has performed flawlessly for the past 6 years.
I had a mechanical issue at the end of the year. Although not confirmed at this time, I am fairly certain that the engine needs a new power head. I am not interested at all in repairing this engine if this is the case.
I am in the process of upgrading to a larger boat & do not want to spend a ton on this hull. I am interested in installing an engine on her to make it easier to sell this boat. Obviously I am looking to accomplish this as cost-effectively as possible.
I recently came across a very clean, lightly-used, low hour 1989 Mercury 115 that lived in fresh water its entire life.
Is the 115 adequate power for this hull, or should I keep looking for a 135 or 150 for it?

Tohsgib posted 03-01-2011 11:00 AM ET (US)
115 is plenty or better yet sell with the blown 150. That would be enticing for many, especially if you KNOW the diagnosis. Clark Roberts has a 90 on his 21 and loves it. I have a 115 on my 19 Revenge and love it(40mph).
flippa posted 03-01-2011 12:25 PM ET (US)
Don't you think that I would get more for her with a running engine?
I figured that I would swich engines & part out the 150 on Ebay.
Tohsgib posted 03-01-2011 01:07 PM ET (US)
You might but with a 22 year old engine what are you gonna get? Many might be thinking $3500 for NEW powerhead and viola instead of $13K for a new modern engine to replace a 22 year old engine that they might perceive as underpowered, etc no matter how clean it is. If you got the 115 for dirt cheap..cool but even then it might not be worth the hassle. For instance many here will use this method of pricing...boat is selling for $7500, trailer is worth $1000, engine is blown so maybe worth $1000 so boat is therefore $5500 for hull. Now put a 115 on it and people think $10k for package, trailer worth $1000, 22 year old 115 worth $1500, bare hull is $7500. So for me to look at it the other way I am thinking $7500 and $3500= $11k for a nice boat, decent trailer and a modern DFI 2001 with a brandy new powerhead under warranty...yeah! Then again it is kinda 6 in one hand.... Lastly the 2001 Opti 150/175's are not well favored.
flippa posted 03-01-2011 03:20 PM ET (US)
I could get the engine for $800. It even has an older boat & trailer connected to it.
I would have to deal with getting rid of the boat & trailer after taking the engine, but would probably list it for free on craigslist. Someone probably would take it away for that price.
I agree that the Optimax 150 has somewhat of a bad reputation which is why I figured that the boat would be easier to sell if it at least had a running engine on her.
L H G posted 03-01-2011 04:14 PM ET (US)
Larry - The way you have described it, that 1989 Merc 115 2+2 (it's introductory year) is a bargain for $800. It is an easy drop-on, has integral oil injection, and should give you about 40MPH. It will add a lot more value to your rig than it costs. They are pretty good on gas also, since below 1800 they run on only two cylinders. You will want to use a 17" or 18" prop.
Fishmore posted 03-02-2011 01:41 AM ET (US)
When Boston Whaler came out with the Outrage 21 in 1970 they fitted it with the Bearcat 85 HP 4-stroke engine that weighed in at 279lbs. In Google they have a copy of the article from Popular Science. At the time the test personnel were very impressed with the boat and it's performance with the 85HP Bearcat.
jimh posted 03-02-2011 09:21 AM ET (US)
I would not be afraid to offer the boat for sale without any engine as an option. If someone is looking for a nice classic OUTRAGE 21, they may want to re-power it immediately, anyways. Not having a motor on the boat may be an asset to such a buyer.
flippa posted 03-02-2011 12:07 PM ET (US)
I had considered attempting to sell the boat several different ways, with the existing engine, with no engine & with the 115 Mercury.
I still need to confirm that the Optimax 150 will require a major repair. If so, I will drop the 115 on her & attempt to sell the donor boat & trailer to recover some of the costs.
I agree with Jim that someone may want to repower the Outrage with a newer engine, but I feel that it would be a smaller group that would consider this boat with no power. I think it will be more attractive to potential buyers to have a running boat.
They could get a few trips out of her prior to replacing the engine. Heck, I want to get a few more fishing & diving trips out of her before letting it go.
flippa posted 03-02-2011 12:10 PM ET (US)
I think that Nick has a real valid point in having the Optimax available. I will hold off on selling this engine until the boat is gone.
dfmcintyre posted 03-02-2011 01:16 PM ET (US)
After finding out how much to repair the Opti, and if it's too pricey, one other thought would be to leave the Opti mounted and have the 115 boxed. Let the new owner remove and mount. It may need transom work prior to the new mounting, and would cost you.
Regards - Don
Tohsgib posted 03-02-2011 01:43 PM ET (US)
Engine holes are the same so unless transom is damaged, no work would be required. For $800 you can't lose and can always sell it for $800 or more if boat sells w/o. This really depends on what you are asking for the boat and condition. If boat is rough, it may be worth more with the Opti on the back. If boat is mint, many may want to automatically repower(like I did). These boats although are starting to command higher values, are not worth that much due to age...but still worth more than when new which is not bad for original owner boats. Even my boat with a 2004 trailer, 2005/6 4 stroke and $3k worth of canvas would never recoup my $14+k investment and I only paid $5k for BMT and sold the old engine. A 78 boat, unknown trailer. and sweet 89 engine is not gonna fetch much unless a museum piece and hence why I doubt either engine will effect the price much if in the $5-7k range which is where I suspect if nice.
Tom W Clark posted 03-02-2011 03:15 PM ET (US)
To answer the question, yes, 115 HP is plenty for the Outrage 21. Even 90 HP is a great combination.
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/019738.html
If you're just trying to sell the boat, sell the boat.
Many are delighted to find a hull with no motor, but if the 115 is only $800, Nick has a point; you do not have much to loose...if it is sound. I'd be very skeptical of an $800 115 HP outboard.
L H G posted 03-02-2011 07:25 PM ET (US)
Many of Whaler's catalog photos of the 21 smoothside show it with a Mercury 115, the in-line 6 version which was being made at the time. So 115 should be plenty of power.
Jeff posted 03-02-2011 10:02 PM ET (US)
I think the real question is not so much about whether a 115 is a good choice to power the hull for your use but, whether it is the right choice for resale. I think many if not most lookers/interested parties would be expecting for this hull to have a 150hp outboard. If you power the hull with a 130 I think the number of interested parties many be reduced a bit from if it had a 150. With a 115 I think the number of interested parties will sharply drop off.
I think there is a psychological mind set in most buyers thinking that if most 18's Outrages you see have a 130 - 150hp outboard than a 21' Whaler is should have the same or more power. No matter what reality may be with a 115 on a 21 Outrage, I think you are going to have to deal with that mind set.
If it were me, I would consider these options:
1) Selling the hull without a motor. Take the Opti off and sell it off in parts.
3) Spend some dollars a get a newer but used 130 - 150 EFI motor with some real hours on it. Something like this (yes I know you would need a jackplate for this one but, you get the idea):
http://www.thehulltruth.com/fishing-miscellaneous-items/ 324148-2000-mercury-optimax-150-a.html
2) Look for a good used older carb'd 150-200 for cheap and install it. I personally would not be afraid of an older motor so long as it checks out solid from a full inspection and it looks very clean.
I think you will always get better prices selling a Whaler with an appropriate sized motor vs selling a hull without power or an underpowered hull. Even if the underpowering is just perceived and not reality. So, option 2 or 3 would be my choice. You just have be smart about what motor you buy and how much you spend.
I know people here always say they would take a hull without power over one with older power but, from what I see in the market hulls without any power just do not sell well at all unless it is for fire sale prices.
Jeff posted 03-02-2011 10:11 PM ET (US)
I guess the simple point I tried to make above is; if you buy the 115 and install it, the cost to do that is not going to increase the possible selling price of the boat, nor the interest in it to make it worth while. That's just my Opinion.
Tom W Clark posted 03-02-2011 10:32 PM ET (US)
Let's just cut to the chase.
Larry -- How much for the 1978 Outrage 21 without the motor?
flippa posted 03-03-2011 09:47 AM ET (US)
As-is, I would like to get $7000 with all the accessories. That is a real tough sell without a running engine. If it is at least running, I may get that for her.
I was considering pulling off the goodies & selling individually. Another hobby I have is buying old junk Porsches & parting them out. I mention this because these are an example of where the parts are worth much more than the whole. Buckda recently did this with his Outrage. God knows that there is a demand for OEM parts in decent shape.
It has the full canvas set (Mills), a leaning post w/ rear seat from a gaurdian, 2005 9.9 4 stroke Mercury Kicker, shepard crook mounted outrigger mount with poles, Lee's rail mounted rod holders, decent electronics, etc. The canvas, leaning post & outrigger mount all have decent value separately. I could always use the kicker & electronics on other boats & will most likely keep them. I wouldn't separate the console from the hull.
The Optimax is probably worth more in parts than it is whole as well. I have seen just the ECU and fuel system assemblies sell for over $350 each. Then there is the SS prop, aluminum prop, lower unit, electronic components, couling, etc.... Parting this out would more than cover the cost of dropping the 115 on her.
But... if I took away all the goodies, what is a bare hull sitting on an old trailer really worth? Maybe $2000 to $3000?

flippa posted 03-03-2011 09:56 AM ET (US)
Perhaps I am underestimating the value of the bare hull.
There are plenty of junk 13s & 17's selling for more than this everyday on Craigslist.
Tohsgib posted 03-03-2011 10:38 AM ET (US)
If you keep the 9.9 and the outriggers you save $1500-2k, parting out the Opti...at least a G. So now lets say you only want $4-$4500 for teh hull, and its goodies which is easily obtainable if nice. Adding the 115 would raise the price but probably not enough to make it worth while. I think if you asked $5k for the hull and trailer minus BOTH engines and outriggers, you will sell her easily and have at least your $7k.
leadsled posted 03-03-2011 02:42 PM ET (US)
A lot of people would want just the boat and repower themselves.I bought all 14 of my whalers without power. It is still early in the season. Put the 9.9 kicker and outriggers in the garage and put the boat on craigslist boston with the option of letting them take the boat without power or with the merc knowing it needs work.
$ 6000 with motor or $5000 without. If in a month you still haven't sold it you still have plenty of time to repower it. The boston boat show is going on right now so it would be a good time to post it. In a month our snow will be gone and have the weather to change engines if you have to.
Post it now. Tom from mass.

Hop to:

Contact Us | RETURN to ContinuousWave Top Page

Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Freeware Version 2000
Purchase our Licensed Version- which adds many more features!
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.

Author	Topic: 1978 Outrage 21 - minimum power requirements
flippa	posted 03-01-2011 09:23 AM ET (US) I am looking for advice on repowering my 1978 Outrage 21. I have a 2001 Optimax 150 currently on the boat. The motor was just awesome on this hull and has performed flawlessly for the past 6 years. I had a mechanical issue at the end of the year. Although not confirmed at this time, I am fairly certain that the engine needs a new power head. I am not interested at all in repairing this engine if this is the case. I am in the process of upgrading to a larger boat & do not want to spend a ton on this hull. I am interested in installing an engine on her to make it easier to sell this boat. Obviously I am looking to accomplish this as cost-effectively as possible. I recently came across a very clean, lightly-used, low hour 1989 Mercury 115 that lived in fresh water its entire life. Is the 115 adequate power for this hull, or should I keep looking for a 135 or 150 for it?
Tohsgib	posted 03-01-2011 11:00 AM ET (US) 115 is plenty or better yet sell with the blown 150. That would be enticing for many, especially if you KNOW the diagnosis. Clark Roberts has a 90 on his 21 and loves it. I have a 115 on my 19 Revenge and love it(40mph).
flippa	posted 03-01-2011 12:25 PM ET (US) Don't you think that I would get more for her with a running engine? I figured that I would swich engines & part out the 150 on Ebay.
Tohsgib	posted 03-01-2011 01:07 PM ET (US) You might but with a 22 year old engine what are you gonna get? Many might be thinking $3500 for NEW powerhead and viola instead of $13K for a new modern engine to replace a 22 year old engine that they might perceive as underpowered, etc no matter how clean it is. If you got the 115 for dirt cheap..cool but even then it might not be worth the hassle. For instance many here will use this method of pricing...boat is selling for $7500, trailer is worth $1000, engine is blown so maybe worth $1000 so boat is therefore $5500 for hull. Now put a 115 on it and people think $10k for package, trailer worth $1000, 22 year old 115 worth $1500, bare hull is $7500. So for me to look at it the other way I am thinking $7500 and $3500= $11k for a nice boat, decent trailer and a modern DFI 2001 with a brandy new powerhead under warranty...yeah! Then again it is kinda 6 in one hand.... Lastly the 2001 Opti 150/175's are not well favored.
flippa	posted 03-01-2011 03:20 PM ET (US) I could get the engine for $800. It even has an older boat & trailer connected to it. I would have to deal with getting rid of the boat & trailer after taking the engine, but would probably list it for free on craigslist. Someone probably would take it away for that price. I agree that the Optimax 150 has somewhat of a bad reputation which is why I figured that the boat would be easier to sell if it at least had a running engine on her.
L H G	posted 03-01-2011 04:14 PM ET (US) Larry - The way you have described it, that 1989 Merc 115 2+2 (it's introductory year) is a bargain for $800. It is an easy drop-on, has integral oil injection, and should give you about 40MPH. It will add a lot more value to your rig than it costs. They are pretty good on gas also, since below 1800 they run on only two cylinders. You will want to use a 17" or 18" prop.
Fishmore	posted 03-02-2011 01:41 AM ET (US) When Boston Whaler came out with the Outrage 21 in 1970 they fitted it with the Bearcat 85 HP 4-stroke engine that weighed in at 279lbs. In Google they have a copy of the article from Popular Science. At the time the test personnel were very impressed with the boat and it's performance with the 85HP Bearcat.
jimh	posted 03-02-2011 09:21 AM ET (US) I would not be afraid to offer the boat for sale without any engine as an option. If someone is looking for a nice classic OUTRAGE 21, they may want to re-power it immediately, anyways. Not having a motor on the boat may be an asset to such a buyer.
flippa	posted 03-02-2011 12:07 PM ET (US) I had considered attempting to sell the boat several different ways, with the existing engine, with no engine & with the 115 Mercury. I still need to confirm that the Optimax 150 will require a major repair. If so, I will drop the 115 on her & attempt to sell the donor boat & trailer to recover some of the costs. I agree with Jim that someone may want to repower the Outrage with a newer engine, but I feel that it would be a smaller group that would consider this boat with no power. I think it will be more attractive to potential buyers to have a running boat. They could get a few trips out of her prior to replacing the engine. Heck, I want to get a few more fishing & diving trips out of her before letting it go.
flippa	posted 03-02-2011 12:10 PM ET (US) I think that Nick has a real valid point in having the Optimax available. I will hold off on selling this engine until the boat is gone.
dfmcintyre	posted 03-02-2011 01:16 PM ET (US) After finding out how much to repair the Opti, and if it's too pricey, one other thought would be to leave the Opti mounted and have the 115 boxed. Let the new owner remove and mount. It may need transom work prior to the new mounting, and would cost you. Regards - Don
Tohsgib	posted 03-02-2011 01:43 PM ET (US) Engine holes are the same so unless transom is damaged, no work would be required. For $800 you can't lose and can always sell it for $800 or more if boat sells w/o. This really depends on what you are asking for the boat and condition. If boat is rough, it may be worth more with the Opti on the back. If boat is mint, many may want to automatically repower(like I did). These boats although are starting to command higher values, are not worth that much due to age...but still worth more than when new which is not bad for original owner boats. Even my boat with a 2004 trailer, 2005/6 4 stroke and $3k worth of canvas would never recoup my $14+k investment and I only paid $5k for BMT and sold the old engine. A 78 boat, unknown trailer. and sweet 89 engine is not gonna fetch much unless a museum piece and hence why I doubt either engine will effect the price much if in the $5-7k range which is where I suspect if nice.
Tom W Clark	posted 03-02-2011 03:15 PM ET (US) To answer the question, yes, 115 HP is plenty for the Outrage 21. Even 90 HP is a great combination. http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/019738.html If you're just trying to sell the boat, sell the boat. Many are delighted to find a hull with no motor, but if the 115 is only $800, Nick has a point; you do not have much to loose...if it is sound. I'd be very skeptical of an $800 115 HP outboard.
L H G	posted 03-02-2011 07:25 PM ET (US) Many of Whaler's catalog photos of the 21 smoothside show it with a Mercury 115, the in-line 6 version which was being made at the time. So 115 should be plenty of power.
Jeff	posted 03-02-2011 10:02 PM ET (US) I think the real question is not so much about whether a 115 is a good choice to power the hull for your use but, whether it is the right choice for resale. I think many if not most lookers/interested parties would be expecting for this hull to have a 150hp outboard. If you power the hull with a 130 I think the number of interested parties many be reduced a bit from if it had a 150. With a 115 I think the number of interested parties will sharply drop off. I think there is a psychological mind set in most buyers thinking that if most 18's Outrages you see have a 130 - 150hp outboard than a 21' Whaler is should have the same or more power. No matter what reality may be with a 115 on a 21 Outrage, I think you are going to have to deal with that mind set. If it were me, I would consider these options: 1) Selling the hull without a motor. Take the Opti off and sell it off in parts. 3) Spend some dollars a get a newer but used 130 - 150 EFI motor with some real hours on it. Something like this (yes I know you would need a jackplate for this one but, you get the idea): http://www.thehulltruth.com/fishing-miscellaneous-items/ 324148-2000-mercury-optimax-150-a.html 2) Look for a good used older carb'd 150-200 for cheap and install it. I personally would not be afraid of an older motor so long as it checks out solid from a full inspection and it looks very clean. I think you will always get better prices selling a Whaler with an appropriate sized motor vs selling a hull without power or an underpowered hull. Even if the underpowering is just perceived and not reality. So, option 2 or 3 would be my choice. You just have be smart about what motor you buy and how much you spend. I know people here always say they would take a hull without power over one with older power but, from what I see in the market hulls without any power just do not sell well at all unless it is for fire sale prices.
Jeff	posted 03-02-2011 10:11 PM ET (US) I guess the simple point I tried to make above is; if you buy the 115 and install it, the cost to do that is not going to increase the possible selling price of the boat, nor the interest in it to make it worth while. That's just my Opinion.
Tom W Clark	posted 03-02-2011 10:32 PM ET (US) Let's just cut to the chase. Larry -- How much for the 1978 Outrage 21 without the motor?
flippa	posted 03-03-2011 09:47 AM ET (US) As-is, I would like to get $7000 with all the accessories. That is a real tough sell without a running engine. If it is at least running, I may get that for her. I was considering pulling off the goodies & selling individually. Another hobby I have is buying old junk Porsches & parting them out. I mention this because these are an example of where the parts are worth much more than the whole. Buckda recently did this with his Outrage. God knows that there is a demand for OEM parts in decent shape. It has the full canvas set (Mills), a leaning post w/ rear seat from a gaurdian, 2005 9.9 4 stroke Mercury Kicker, shepard crook mounted outrigger mount with poles, Lee's rail mounted rod holders, decent electronics, etc. The canvas, leaning post & outrigger mount all have decent value separately. I could always use the kicker & electronics on other boats & will most likely keep them. I wouldn't separate the console from the hull. The Optimax is probably worth more in parts than it is whole as well. I have seen just the ECU and fuel system assemblies sell for over $350 each. Then there is the SS prop, aluminum prop, lower unit, electronic components, couling, etc.... Parting this out would more than cover the cost of dropping the 115 on her. But... if I took away all the goodies, what is a bare hull sitting on an old trailer really worth? Maybe $2000 to $3000?
flippa	posted 03-03-2011 09:56 AM ET (US) Perhaps I am underestimating the value of the bare hull. There are plenty of junk 13s & 17's selling for more than this everyday on Craigslist.
Tohsgib	posted 03-03-2011 10:38 AM ET (US) If you keep the 9.9 and the outriggers you save $1500-2k, parting out the Opti...at least a G. So now lets say you only want $4-$4500 for teh hull, and its goodies which is easily obtainable if nice. Adding the 115 would raise the price but probably not enough to make it worth while. I think if you asked $5k for the hull and trailer minus BOTH engines and outriggers, you will sell her easily and have at least your $7k.
leadsled	posted 03-03-2011 02:42 PM ET (US) A lot of people would want just the boat and repower themselves.I bought all 14 of my whalers without power. It is still early in the season. Put the 9.9 kicker and outriggers in the garage and put the boat on craigslist boston with the option of letting them take the boat without power or with the merc knowing it needs work. $ 6000 with motor or $5000 without. If in a month you still haven't sold it you still have plenty of time to repower it. The boston boat show is going on right now so it would be a good time to post it. In a month our snow will be gone and have the weather to change engines if you have to. Post it now. Tom from mass.