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Author Topic:   MONTAUK 17: Engine Mounting Height

stover86montauk posted 06-24-2011 11:51 PM ET (US)
How many holes-up should I have my new Yamaha F90 mounted on my [1986 MONTAUK 17]?
jimh posted 06-25-2011 08:09 AM ET (US)
Most modern propellers can tolerate an elevated mounting height of at least one-hole-up. What propeller are you using on your Yamaha F90?
Tom W Clark posted 06-25-2011 11:57 AM ET (US)
The F90 should be mounted no less than Two Holes Up and perhaps Three Holes Up if a good stainless steel propeller, like the Yamaha Performance Series three blade is used.
In other words, use the third or fourth set of bolt holes. Do not use the first or second set.
stover86montauk posted 06-25-2011 12:36 PM ET (US)
Thank you very much! I will relay that information - Jeff
stover86montauk posted 06-25-2011 02:31 PM ET (US)
Tom - is there a certain size yamaha performance 3 blade stainless prop that you recommend for that set up
Tom W Clark posted 06-25-2011 02:42 PM ET (US)
With the F90's 6000 RPM redline and its 2.31:1 gear ratio, you'll proably want the 13-1/4" x 18" Performance Series Three Blade, Yamaha part # MAR-GYT3B-V4-18
stover86montauk posted 06-26-2011 08:59 AM ET (US)
The guy at the shop that is installing my engine said the cavitation plate should line up with the bottom of the boat. Is three holes up the setting for that alignment, or does three or four holes up bring the cavitation plate above the bottom of the boat?
I recall seeing a discussion on this forum about engine mounting height for an E-tech, and I beleive the consensus was not to let the cavitation plate's location determine the mounting height of the engine. I assume that would be true for a Yamaha as well.
The shop is installing my engine on Monday or Tuesday, so nothing has been done yet. Is the optimum mounting hieght based on the relative location of the cavitation plate to the bottom of the boat, to wit, two inches above the bottom, even with the bottom, etc?? If not, what determines the best height, assuming I want to maximize speed and efficiency.
Tom W Clark posted 06-26-2011 10:44 AM ET (US)
Let me be crystal clear: The "guy at the shop" is wrong.
You do NOT want the AV plate to line up with the bottom of the hull, though that is almost universally what dealers and installers will tell you. That advice was sound 25 years ago, but it it not applicable today.
You want the AV plate about 1" to 2" above the bottom of the hull.
You will probably get resistance from the "guy at the shop" about this but hold your ground and insist that the motor be installed as I have described.
stover86montauk posted 06-26-2011 09:39 PM ET (US)
Thank you very much Tom. I will take your recommendation and have the engine mounted accordingly.
Would a 13.25 X 15 Stiletto Advantage or 13.25 x 17 Turbo 1 prop work well?
Tom W Clark posted 06-26-2011 09:43 PM ET (US)
Yes, the 13-1/4" x 17" Stiletto Advantage 4.25 or Turbo 1 would work as well, in fact they are the same propeller as the Yamaha Performance Series Three Blade except the Stiletto and Turbo props are now square bore (they use the Flo-Torq style field replaceable hub kits, while the Yamaha branded version is still press-in rubber hubbed.)
The 13-1/4" x 15" size would be too short.
stover86montauk posted 06-27-2011 10:16 AM ET (US)
I spoke with the installer and am getting the recommended Yamaha prop. The installer said "you are going to cavitate every time you turn the wheel."
I hope he is wrong! I'll let you know how it works as soon as I test it.
Tom W Clark posted 06-27-2011 12:49 PM ET (US)
Your installer is about to receive some enlightenment.
stover86montauk posted 06-27-2011 07:33 PM ET (US)
He had ordered a Yamaha painted stainless prop. He told me the performance 3 does not do well on Whalers, but he would sell me one at my own risk. I told him I would assume the risk of all proposed modifications.
contender posted 06-28-2011 12:29 PM ET (US)
Have the guy mount the engine on the transom (or were he wants it) But he is to use the top mounting holes, doing this you can raise your engine as needed. I feel that Tom is correct, and the cavitation plate should be mounted 1 inch above the bottom of the boat.
Tohsgib posted 06-28-2011 01:51 PM ET (US)
One inch? Raise it all the way up, she'll be fine. Mine was up 4.5" on a 5" setback and drove normal except in large following seas which I rarely visited.
How old is your "Guy"? does he look like Moses or ??? Tell him to get this thing called the internet and start looking around...better yet, go to a boat show and see how they do it these days. Heck my neighbors Grady 25 is up on the next to last hole.
Tom W Clark posted 06-28-2011 02:20 PM ET (US)
The Yamaha Painted Stainless Steel models are decent props, but the M series do better on the larger Whalers than the K series do on the small Whalers like a Montauk.
Again, there is no practical difference between a Yamaha Performance Series Three Blade, a Turbo 1 and a Stiletto Advantage.
Tom W Clark posted 06-28-2011 02:22 PM ET (US)
How much is "the installer" charging you for the Yamaha Performance Series Three Blade?
stover86montauk posted 06-28-2011 07:40 PM ET (US)
I am paying about 11K for the engine, the prop, all rigging, new shifter and key switch. Also included in that is Baystar hydraulic steering and $800 in tax.
stover86montauk posted 06-28-2011 08:10 PM ET (US)
I didn't get an itemized quote.
bloller posted 06-28-2011 08:17 PM ET (US)
I spent less than half of 11k for a new leftover 2004 Mercury 60HP Fourstroke in 2008. That includes install stainles prop as well as some new gaugues and wiring harness which I later installed myself. I also purchased in Deleware thus no sales tax. I don't know what hydraulic steering costs but 30 more horsepower for twice as much money seems ridiculous to me.
stover86montauk posted 06-28-2011 09:15 PM ET (US)
I had another shop that would do it for 1k less, and I had been waiting on them to get a Yammi for 2 months. Got tired of waiting and found this guy. I know it is a lot, but I guess a sucker is born everyday.
bloller posted 06-28-2011 09:38 PM ET (US)
I've only seen one small whaler with hydraulic steering. Why did you go with that? That alone would have saved you around a grand with labor.
stover86montauk posted 06-28-2011 09:50 PM ET (US)
I had problems with my steering, so I decided to try hydraulic while I was already biting the bullet. I was going to have to buy all new steering anyway. I stripped the gearbox behind the steering wheel trying to turn, which lead to me deciding to redo everything.
bloller posted 06-28-2011 10:07 PM ET (US)
Well you should have a great setup when done. Congratulations. The 90hp Four cycle engines are large and do look kind of funny on a classic 16'/17' Whaler but there are plenty of times when I wish I had that extra horsepower.
pcrussell50 posted 06-29-2011 02:25 AM ET (US)
bloller,
He's not getting a four-stroke. He's getting an Evinrude ETEC, which is a two-stroke, and an awesome one at that. All things considered, probably the best modern outboard made today, bar none... including four-strokes.
I'm jealous, and that doesn't happen often.
Sorry Larry... I did include the disclaimer that I meant, "modern" outboards. I know less about Merc Towers like yours, but I think OMC's V4 crossflows are the best outboards, (unqualified), ever made. :)
(zipping up flame suit)
-Peter
Tom W Clark posted 06-29-2011 10:46 AM ET (US)
Peter - He is getting a Yamaha F90. That is a four stroke outboard.
pcrussell50 posted 06-29-2011 12:35 PM ET (US)
Whoops! I thought I was posting to the Montauk repower with ETEC thread.
-Peter
Tohsgib posted 06-29-2011 01:01 PM ET (US)
Wow! $11k for a 90 installed in SC none the less. CA that seems the norm but around here? I guess the Tsunami has given them an advantage.
stover86montauk posted 06-29-2011 08:09 PM ET (US)
Update - I talked with the installer today, and he said the cavitation plate was 1.25 inches above the bottom of the boat. I will let everyone know how it performs when I pick it up.
Tom - thanks for your insight.
Slick 50 posted 06-29-2011 09:21 PM ET (US)
Sounds like you are going to have a fine set up.
My 1985 Montauk has the cavitation plate right at the middle of the transom drain hole. That is with the engine trimmed with the cavitation plate parallel with the keel of the hull.
Good luck,
Rick
stover86montauk posted 07-04-2011 09:47 PM ET (US)
Setup works great! No cavitation whatsoever. Thanks for all the advice!
Tom W Clark posted 07-04-2011 10:25 PM ET (US)
I am glad to hear that. How high did the installer end up mounting the motor, three holes up or four holes up?
What is your WOT RPM?
How fast does your boat go?
Tohsgib posted 07-05-2011 12:09 AM ET (US)
May I mammoo dog face to the banana patch?
stover86montauk posted 07-05-2011 07:02 PM ET (US)
Tom -
The motor is two holes up, so there is one more hole up that I could have gone. I don't know my speed or RPM at WOT because I was not able to afford guages. I am going to install speed and tach guages myself once I save up a little more money.
On that topic, what guages do you recommend - I know I have a Yamaha 704 shifter, Yamaha key switch, and Yamaha harnesses connecting all of this to the F90. Price is the biggest factor for me, but I don't want something that won't last. I imagine I need the harnesses and the guages and any other equipment that is necessary for the install.
stover86montauk posted 07-05-2011 07:05 PM ET (US)
Tohsgib - yes, go right ahead
Tohsgib posted 07-05-2011 07:59 PM ET (US)
Unless you want to go crazy I would just buy the analog tach with idiot lights that should just plug right in or may need a pigtail for cheap from E-Bay or Yamaha. The gauge itself is only like $149 as my bud just repowered with a F225 and did not want all the stupid management stuff that 90% of owners never look at or it never works, plus I hate a digital tach.
Tohsgib posted 07-05-2011 08:01 PM ET (US)
PS your engine has a revlimiter built in but unless you have a tach I really would not run it WFO until you know. You can run it WOT but don't trim it to the hilt to see what she will REALLY do...AKA WFO.
stover86montauk posted 07-05-2011 09:58 PM ET (US)
I would prefer analog guages. What type of harnesses do I need and do those harnesses connect to existing connectors in the harness from the engine or do I have to run a new harness all the way to the engine - I don't have anything other than the harnesses running from the engine to the shifter, the battery, and the key switch.
Tohsgib posted 07-06-2011 12:16 PM ET (US)
Again I am not sure if you need a cheap pigtail to connect from your engine to the helm or your harness to your tach or if your harness already has a plug for the tach. My 1990 Yamaha harness had the tach plug but not sure if it was a pigtail off the basic harness. Dealer would know for certain, especially the one who installed it, etc. Either way it was not expensive for his pigtail but off my head I don't remeber all the details about it.
Salmon Tub posted 07-08-2011 12:56 PM ET (US)
A note on engine height. When I mounted my 90, I mounted it all the way down, 1st hole. This may have cost a bit of performance. I then raised it one hole up and started to get a bit of blow-out in following seas since you need to trim out when running with the waves. I think the smoother the water, the higher the engine can go. One advantage of raising the motor is a bit more clearance when on the trailer so you can jack the tongue up higher for better drainage during rain.
tedious posted 07-08-2011 01:52 PM ET (US)
Hi Stover - I don't know what your budget is like and I understand your preference for an analog tach, but I will just mention that a Yamaha Command Link tach with all the connecting parts will run you about $400, and it's a very easy install.
The nice thing about the Command Link tach setup is that it lets you monitor other motor parameters too - like engine hours, temperature, voltage, trim setting, and oil pressure. It also gives you very fine control of trolling speed (in 50 RPM increments). Once you install the tach setup, if you ever want to, you can add a cable to attach the Command Link bus to a modern GPS and get additional information such as fuel use.
In fact, if you do have a modern GPS that will display motor parameters, you could skip the tach entirely and just connect straight to the GPS. I might well take that route if I were to do it over again.
Tim
Tom W Clark posted 07-18-2011 05:31 PM ET (US)
stover86montauk -- I encourage you to raise the motor that last hole, install a tach and report back with how well the boat does. I think there may be more improvement to be gained and enjoyed.
stover86montauk posted 07-20-2011 09:57 PM ET (US)
Thanks Tom. I will try that soon. I am ordering analog Yamaha tach and speedometer, along with the associated harnesses, and I will post my results once I install them and test it. Then I will post the results after the mounting change.
I can tell you that the boat goes so fast when I trim it up at WOT that it feels like I could lose control if I hit any decent boat wake. It is certainly much faster than the old Evinrude 90 that came with the boat, even when it was running well.

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Author	Topic: MONTAUK 17: Engine Mounting Height
stover86montauk	posted 06-24-2011 11:51 PM ET (US) How many holes-up should I have my new Yamaha F90 mounted on my [1986 MONTAUK 17]?
jimh	posted 06-25-2011 08:09 AM ET (US) Most modern propellers can tolerate an elevated mounting height of at least one-hole-up. What propeller are you using on your Yamaha F90?
Tom W Clark	posted 06-25-2011 11:57 AM ET (US) The F90 should be mounted no less than Two Holes Up and perhaps Three Holes Up if a good stainless steel propeller, like the Yamaha Performance Series three blade is used. In other words, use the third or fourth set of bolt holes. Do not use the first or second set.
stover86montauk	posted 06-25-2011 12:36 PM ET (US) Thank you very much! I will relay that information - Jeff
stover86montauk	posted 06-25-2011 02:31 PM ET (US) Tom - is there a certain size yamaha performance 3 blade stainless prop that you recommend for that set up
Tom W Clark	posted 06-25-2011 02:42 PM ET (US) With the F90's 6000 RPM redline and its 2.31:1 gear ratio, you'll proably want the 13-1/4" x 18" Performance Series Three Blade, Yamaha part # MAR-GYT3B-V4-18
stover86montauk	posted 06-26-2011 08:59 AM ET (US) The guy at the shop that is installing my engine said the cavitation plate should line up with the bottom of the boat. Is three holes up the setting for that alignment, or does three or four holes up bring the cavitation plate above the bottom of the boat? I recall seeing a discussion on this forum about engine mounting height for an E-tech, and I beleive the consensus was not to let the cavitation plate's location determine the mounting height of the engine. I assume that would be true for a Yamaha as well. The shop is installing my engine on Monday or Tuesday, so nothing has been done yet. Is the optimum mounting hieght based on the relative location of the cavitation plate to the bottom of the boat, to wit, two inches above the bottom, even with the bottom, etc?? If not, what determines the best height, assuming I want to maximize speed and efficiency.
Tom W Clark	posted 06-26-2011 10:44 AM ET (US) Let me be crystal clear: The "guy at the shop" is wrong. You do NOT want the AV plate to line up with the bottom of the hull, though that is almost universally what dealers and installers will tell you. That advice was sound 25 years ago, but it it not applicable today. You want the AV plate about 1" to 2" above the bottom of the hull. You will probably get resistance from the "guy at the shop" about this but hold your ground and insist that the motor be installed as I have described.
stover86montauk	posted 06-26-2011 09:39 PM ET (US) Thank you very much Tom. I will take your recommendation and have the engine mounted accordingly. Would a 13.25 X 15 Stiletto Advantage or 13.25 x 17 Turbo 1 prop work well?
Tom W Clark	posted 06-26-2011 09:43 PM ET (US) Yes, the 13-1/4" x 17" Stiletto Advantage 4.25 or Turbo 1 would work as well, in fact they are the same propeller as the Yamaha Performance Series Three Blade except the Stiletto and Turbo props are now square bore (they use the Flo-Torq style field replaceable hub kits, while the Yamaha branded version is still press-in rubber hubbed.) The 13-1/4" x 15" size would be too short.
stover86montauk	posted 06-27-2011 10:16 AM ET (US) I spoke with the installer and am getting the recommended Yamaha prop. The installer said "you are going to cavitate every time you turn the wheel." I hope he is wrong! I'll let you know how it works as soon as I test it.
Tom W Clark	posted 06-27-2011 12:49 PM ET (US) Your installer is about to receive some enlightenment.
stover86montauk	posted 06-27-2011 07:33 PM ET (US) He had ordered a Yamaha painted stainless prop. He told me the performance 3 does not do well on Whalers, but he would sell me one at my own risk. I told him I would assume the risk of all proposed modifications.
contender	posted 06-28-2011 12:29 PM ET (US) Have the guy mount the engine on the transom (or were he wants it) But he is to use the top mounting holes, doing this you can raise your engine as needed. I feel that Tom is correct, and the cavitation plate should be mounted 1 inch above the bottom of the boat.
Tohsgib	posted 06-28-2011 01:51 PM ET (US) One inch? Raise it all the way up, she'll be fine. Mine was up 4.5" on a 5" setback and drove normal except in large following seas which I rarely visited. How old is your "Guy"? does he look like Moses or ??? Tell him to get this thing called the internet and start looking around...better yet, go to a boat show and see how they do it these days. Heck my neighbors Grady 25 is up on the next to last hole.
Tom W Clark	posted 06-28-2011 02:20 PM ET (US) The Yamaha Painted Stainless Steel models are decent props, but the M series do better on the larger Whalers than the K series do on the small Whalers like a Montauk. Again, there is no practical difference between a Yamaha Performance Series Three Blade, a Turbo 1 and a Stiletto Advantage.
Tom W Clark	posted 06-28-2011 02:22 PM ET (US) How much is "the installer" charging you for the Yamaha Performance Series Three Blade?
stover86montauk	posted 06-28-2011 07:40 PM ET (US) I am paying about 11K for the engine, the prop, all rigging, new shifter and key switch. Also included in that is Baystar hydraulic steering and $800 in tax.
stover86montauk	posted 06-28-2011 08:10 PM ET (US) I didn't get an itemized quote.
bloller	posted 06-28-2011 08:17 PM ET (US) I spent less than half of 11k for a new leftover 2004 Mercury 60HP Fourstroke in 2008. That includes install stainles prop as well as some new gaugues and wiring harness which I later installed myself. I also purchased in Deleware thus no sales tax. I don't know what hydraulic steering costs but 30 more horsepower for twice as much money seems ridiculous to me.
stover86montauk	posted 06-28-2011 09:15 PM ET (US) I had another shop that would do it for 1k less, and I had been waiting on them to get a Yammi for 2 months. Got tired of waiting and found this guy. I know it is a lot, but I guess a sucker is born everyday.
bloller	posted 06-28-2011 09:38 PM ET (US) I've only seen one small whaler with hydraulic steering. Why did you go with that? That alone would have saved you around a grand with labor.
stover86montauk	posted 06-28-2011 09:50 PM ET (US) I had problems with my steering, so I decided to try hydraulic while I was already biting the bullet. I was going to have to buy all new steering anyway. I stripped the gearbox behind the steering wheel trying to turn, which lead to me deciding to redo everything.
bloller	posted 06-28-2011 10:07 PM ET (US) Well you should have a great setup when done. Congratulations. The 90hp Four cycle engines are large and do look kind of funny on a classic 16'/17' Whaler but there are plenty of times when I wish I had that extra horsepower.
pcrussell50	posted 06-29-2011 02:25 AM ET (US) bloller, He's not getting a four-stroke. He's getting an Evinrude ETEC, which is a two-stroke, and an awesome one at that. All things considered, probably the best modern outboard made today, bar none... including four-strokes. I'm jealous, and that doesn't happen often. Sorry Larry... I did include the disclaimer that I meant, "modern" outboards. I know less about Merc Towers like yours, but I think OMC's V4 crossflows are the best outboards, (unqualified), ever made. :) (zipping up flame suit) -Peter
Tom W Clark	posted 06-29-2011 10:46 AM ET (US) Peter - He is getting a Yamaha F90. That is a four stroke outboard.
pcrussell50	posted 06-29-2011 12:35 PM ET (US) Whoops! I thought I was posting to the Montauk repower with ETEC thread. -Peter
Tohsgib	posted 06-29-2011 01:01 PM ET (US) Wow! $11k for a 90 installed in SC none the less. CA that seems the norm but around here? I guess the Tsunami has given them an advantage.
stover86montauk	posted 06-29-2011 08:09 PM ET (US) Update - I talked with the installer today, and he said the cavitation plate was 1.25 inches above the bottom of the boat. I will let everyone know how it performs when I pick it up. Tom - thanks for your insight.
Slick 50	posted 06-29-2011 09:21 PM ET (US) Sounds like you are going to have a fine set up. My 1985 Montauk has the cavitation plate right at the middle of the transom drain hole. That is with the engine trimmed with the cavitation plate parallel with the keel of the hull. Good luck, Rick
stover86montauk	posted 07-04-2011 09:47 PM ET (US) Setup works great! No cavitation whatsoever. Thanks for all the advice!
Tom W Clark	posted 07-04-2011 10:25 PM ET (US) I am glad to hear that. How high did the installer end up mounting the motor, three holes up or four holes up? What is your WOT RPM? How fast does your boat go?
Tohsgib	posted 07-05-2011 12:09 AM ET (US) May I mammoo dog face to the banana patch?
stover86montauk	posted 07-05-2011 07:02 PM ET (US) Tom - The motor is two holes up, so there is one more hole up that I could have gone. I don't know my speed or RPM at WOT because I was not able to afford guages. I am going to install speed and tach guages myself once I save up a little more money. On that topic, what guages do you recommend - I know I have a Yamaha 704 shifter, Yamaha key switch, and Yamaha harnesses connecting all of this to the F90. Price is the biggest factor for me, but I don't want something that won't last. I imagine I need the harnesses and the guages and any other equipment that is necessary for the install.
stover86montauk	posted 07-05-2011 07:05 PM ET (US) Tohsgib - yes, go right ahead
Tohsgib	posted 07-05-2011 07:59 PM ET (US) Unless you want to go crazy I would just buy the analog tach with idiot lights that should just plug right in or may need a pigtail for cheap from E-Bay or Yamaha. The gauge itself is only like $149 as my bud just repowered with a F225 and did not want all the stupid management stuff that 90% of owners never look at or it never works, plus I hate a digital tach.
Tohsgib	posted 07-05-2011 08:01 PM ET (US) PS your engine has a revlimiter built in but unless you have a tach I really would not run it WFO until you know. You can run it WOT but don't trim it to the hilt to see what she will REALLY do...AKA WFO.
stover86montauk	posted 07-05-2011 09:58 PM ET (US) I would prefer analog guages. What type of harnesses do I need and do those harnesses connect to existing connectors in the harness from the engine or do I have to run a new harness all the way to the engine - I don't have anything other than the harnesses running from the engine to the shifter, the battery, and the key switch.
Tohsgib	posted 07-06-2011 12:16 PM ET (US) Again I am not sure if you need a cheap pigtail to connect from your engine to the helm or your harness to your tach or if your harness already has a plug for the tach. My 1990 Yamaha harness had the tach plug but not sure if it was a pigtail off the basic harness. Dealer would know for certain, especially the one who installed it, etc. Either way it was not expensive for his pigtail but off my head I don't remeber all the details about it.
Salmon Tub	posted 07-08-2011 12:56 PM ET (US) A note on engine height. When I mounted my 90, I mounted it all the way down, 1st hole. This may have cost a bit of performance. I then raised it one hole up and started to get a bit of blow-out in following seas since you need to trim out when running with the waves. I think the smoother the water, the higher the engine can go. One advantage of raising the motor is a bit more clearance when on the trailer so you can jack the tongue up higher for better drainage during rain.
tedious	posted 07-08-2011 01:52 PM ET (US) Hi Stover - I don't know what your budget is like and I understand your preference for an analog tach, but I will just mention that a Yamaha Command Link tach with all the connecting parts will run you about $400, and it's a very easy install. The nice thing about the Command Link tach setup is that it lets you monitor other motor parameters too - like engine hours, temperature, voltage, trim setting, and oil pressure. It also gives you very fine control of trolling speed (in 50 RPM increments). Once you install the tach setup, if you ever want to, you can add a cable to attach the Command Link bus to a modern GPS and get additional information such as fuel use. In fact, if you do have a modern GPS that will display motor parameters, you could skip the tach entirely and just connect straight to the GPS. I might well take that route if I were to do it over again. Tim
Tom W Clark	posted 07-18-2011 05:31 PM ET (US) stover86montauk -- I encourage you to raise the motor that last hole, install a tach and report back with how well the boat does. I think there may be more improvement to be gained and enjoyed.
stover86montauk	posted 07-20-2011 09:57 PM ET (US) Thanks Tom. I will try that soon. I am ordering analog Yamaha tach and speedometer, along with the associated harnesses, and I will post my results once I install them and test it. Then I will post the results after the mounting change. I can tell you that the boat goes so fast when I trim it up at WOT that it feels like I could lose control if I hit any decent boat wake. It is certainly much faster than the old Evinrude 90 that came with the boat, even when it was running well.