c.2004 Mercury 225 FOURSTROKE - Moderated Discussion Areas

  ContinuousWave
  Whaler
  Moderated Discussion Areas
  ContinuousWave: Whaler Performance
  c.2004 Mercury 225 FOURSTROKE

search | FAQ | profile | register | author help

Author Topic:   c.2004 Mercury 225 FOURSTROKE

Livingwater posted 01-20-2013 10:50 AM ET (US)
I had an Mercury Optimax 150 saltwater series on my 2004 190 Nantucket. I found the engine to be very good on fuel, easy starting however it was extremely noisey. Does anyone have comparisions with the Mercury 225 EFI 4 stroke? Your replies are greatly appreciated.
Livingwater posted 01-20-2013 10:55 AM ET (US)
The reason I'm asking is because my next awesome Boston Whaler is going to be a 210 Ventura.
jimh posted 01-20-2013 01:11 PM ET (US)
The only engine by Mercury that I associate with the description of "225-HP 4 stroke" would be the c.2002 outboard engine that Mercury bought from Yamaha. These were completely Yamaha engines. Mercury was reported to have bought about 4,000 of them, and they were just painted in Mercury's black colors instead of the usual Yamaha blue-gray colors. Perhaps the only change might have been to fit different electrical connectors on them to make them suitable for Mercury rigging harnesses.
These 225-HP engines were among the very first four-cycle outboard engines in the 225-HP range. These engines were not particularly sophisticated. They lacked the variable valve timing or cam phasing that was already in wide use in automotive engines. The contemporary HONDA 225-HP four-cycle outboard had variable valve timing. These engines used natural aspiration for fuel induction. They used simple fuel-injection methods and ran in an open loop mode,
These Mercury-painted Yamaha engines were characterized by modest power and modest torque, leading to modest acceleration and a general decline in performance compared to a two-cycle outboard engine of the same rated horsepower.
Now that these early four-cycle outboard engines are becoming ten years old, there is anecdotal reporting of corrosion problems with them. I am not really expert on the corrosion problems, but I would suggest looking into it further if planning to get one of these engines.
Mercury's use of these engines was only for a limited time. In c.2002 Mercury had nothing to offer its customers in this power range except their traditional two-cycle engines or their OptiMax two-cycle engines. At that time, the OptiMax was generally considered to be a risky engine due to rather widely publicized failures and problems. Many customers, and it seems particularly Boston Whaler customers, were demanding an alternative outboard. The quick solution for Mercury was to make a deal with Yamaha to have Yamaha supply these engines to Mercury for re-badging as Mercury engines. This provided Mercury with an engine to fill the demand for a four-cycle in this power range until they could develop their own product. About two years later Mercury was able to bring its own four-cycle engine in this horsepower range to the market. This engine was initially known as Project-X and upon introduction its name was changed to VERADO. The VERADO is a completely different engine than its Yamaha-in-black-paint predecessor.
Livingwater posted 01-20-2013 03:53 PM ET (US)
The engine tag read:
2003
225XL 4ST
Max RPM 6000
Weight 583
CE 02
It has an OT serial number.
The engine is on a 2003 210 Ventura which I am purchasing.
Peter posted 01-21-2013 09:20 AM ET (US)
That 4-stroke 225 HP motor was made by Yamaha. Some of the Yamaha branded 225 HP 4-stroke outboards of that vintage have had significant exhaust system corrosion requring about $2500 worth of parts and labor to fix. If I were in your situation, I would have the motor inspected for exhaust corrosion. That means that the lower unit has to be dropped and the exhaust system near where it connects to the powerhead examined with a scope.
We don't read much about this problem with the Mercury version of the Yamaha F225 but I suspect that its because there were not that many Mercury versions placed in the field as compared to Yamaha.
tedious posted 01-21-2013 12:18 PM ET (US)
Yes, if you do a search on "Yamaha dry exhaust corrosion" you'll find a lot of info.
But more generally and in response to your original question, the "MercAha" 225 will have good fuel economy and performance, and in comparison with your Optimax with regard to sound, there really is no comparison. You'll barely be able to hear the motor at idle, and at speed, the wind noise will impede conversation more than will the motor. We have a slightly later F200, and more than once a passenger has asked us if we hadn't better start the motor before pushing off the dock.
Tim
Livingwater posted 01-21-2013 07:47 PM ET (US)
I'm going to have the boat surveyed before I purchase it.
Is this something a surveyor would always look for while performing an inspection?
My dream to own another Boston Whaler is starting to become a nightmare :(
I want to thank everyone for making me aware of this possible problem.
I have been reading about this on another site.
K Albus posted 01-21-2013 07:54 PM ET (US)
The exhaust corrosion problem is not something that surveyor would normally check for. You will likely have to hire a mechanic to specifically check for this problem. It involves some disassembly of the motor, so the seller may not be keen on allowing an inspection.
Jefecinco posted 01-22-2013 09:41 AM ET (US)
Why a nightmare?
Assume the boat is everything you want and the engine has good compression, etc. Is it safe to assume the engine was new in 2003? If so, there should be a lot of life left in the engine assuming it was run 100 hours per year.
Even if you have to spend about $2500 to replace any corroded exhaust components it may be a good value.
Due to this known potential failure on the engine perhaps you can negotiate a reduction in the asking price to help compensate. I would think it reasonable for the seller to reduce the price by $1200 or more.
The Yamaha four stroke engines have a very good reputation for longevity with the exception of the exhaust system. There is a good possibility the replacement components are improved to the point that they no longer are an early failure concern. That is something I would try to determine.
Butch
boatdryver posted 01-22-2013 10:02 AM ET (US)
"My dream to own another Boston Whaler is starting to become a nightmare :("
Livingwater, don't give up now. By asking about the motor and receiving all this information you're well equipped to move forward. Its normal to have a used engine which is this expensive to replace checked thoroughly before purchase.
Whaler stopped building the Ventura 21 in favor of its new Vantage line. The 230 Vantage is about $90,000.
Press on with your engine survey. :)
JimL
jimh posted 01-22-2013 01:29 PM ET (US)
Re the exhaust passage corrosion reports: I wonder if these incidents are correlated with saltwater sea water temperature. I note that our prospective buyer is in the New England area, so a local boat run in the ocean in that area might not be subject to the same effects of seawater on the exhaust system as a boat operated in the tropics.
Peter posted 01-22-2013 07:32 PM ET (US)
The corrosion occurs in the dry exhaust so its not clear how seawater would be the cause.
Livingwater posted 01-22-2013 07:48 PM ET (US)
If accurate the hour meter shows 345Hrs on the engine.
Question:
My 240CS Stingray hour meter would run whenever the ignition key was turned to the "ON" position regardless if the engine was operating. What triggers the hour meter on the Whalers?
Note: The 240CS did not have an accessory position.
Back to the possible exhaust corrosion. If gone uncheck what mostlikely would happen to the outboard?
The boat was used primarily on the South side of Long Island and kept in a slip. I'm not sure if the owner ever flushed out the engine with fresh water other then the obvious winterizing.
Long Island Sound is where I am going to use the Ventura, however I will be trailering the boat and like my other boats will ALWAYS run the engine in the driveway and flush with fresh water.
I also washed my boats after each use. (Makes for a long, relaxing day)
Hopefully everything will work out and I will be wearing a continuous smile.
Peter posted 01-22-2013 10:36 PM ET (US)
Flushing makes no difference. People who flushed regularly still had the corrosion. If left unchecked, holes develop in the exhaust system leading to overheating. Some have had engine block corrosion at the joint with the block. For more info, see http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2012/october/Yamaha-F225-Corrosion-Complaints.asp
Jefecinco posted 01-23-2013 10:09 AM ET (US)
Disclaimer: I know nothing about the engine under discussion.
Given the years the engine has been in service it could probably use a new water pump impeller. This will require some amount of lower unit disassembly. How difficult is it to inspect the dry exhaust system while replacing the impeller?
Butch
boatdryver posted 01-23-2013 10:44 AM ET (US)
This timely link from Peter's post above makes mandatory reading for Livingwater.
Useful in negotiating a fair final purchase price with the seller.
And helps explain why used boats with out of warranty high horsepower motors sell for so very much less than new boats with multi-year engine warranties.
The sidebar in the lower right corner suggests that one would want to have the right technician do the inspection in this case.
http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2012/october/ Yamaha-F225-Corrosion-Complaints.asp
JimL

seahorse posted 01-23-2013 03:41 PM ET (US)
For some reason, people talk about the "dry exhaust" corrosion on the Yamaha and the YamaMercs.
The corrosion is in the WET exhaust section beloww the powerhead after water exiting the engine block is introduced into the exhaust area for cooling the 1000 degree plus gases.
It is the combination of high heat and corrosive salt water at high velocity that eats thru the aluminum components, even with the coating that was added in 2004.
Most of the time Yamahas with the corrosion problem are on larger boats and very often overpropped or propped to the lower recommended rpms which greatly increases exhaust temps. It also seems to occur more in southern waters with higher salinity than the northern cold water climates. Year round boating also is a contributing factor.
Jefecinco posted 01-23-2013 07:26 PM ET (US)
Thanks to Peter and Seahorse for some excellent information. If the disassembly required to inspect for damage is no more than that required to replace a water pump impeller I would require an inspection before buying. I would be willing to split the cost of inspection with the seller or pay for it myself if necessary.
That is small money to avoid a potential large expense.
Butch
jhcorley posted 01-23-2013 09:50 PM ET (US)
I am looking at a 2005 "Mercmaha" 4stroke 250hp with only 5hrs. The owner bought it as a spare he says. Is this year model going to possibly have the corrosion issues?
Livingwater posted 01-24-2013 06:17 AM ET (US)
I haven't read anything directly about Mercury having this problem only the F225 Yamaha.
Question:
With all the discussion on the 225 what do you think my boat should cost me to purchase?
2003 Bostron WHaler 210 Ventura in "like new condition"
(Can still smell the gelcoat/fiberglass)
11/02 MFG. date 2003 225XK EFI 4 stroke
2013 dual axle bunk trailer
No electronics
Full 2 piece cockpit cover
Bimini top
I know a lot will depend on the corrosion if any.
Peter posted 01-24-2013 07:12 AM ET (US)
The Mercury versions are not immune to the problem. The guts of the motor are identical to the Yamaha F225. The number of Mercury versions sold are just so low in the number you don't hear much about it.
I don't know what a fair price is for a Ventura but if I were in your situation, I would use the corrosion problem as a reason to lower the price. When it comes time to sell, the next prospective buyers will likely be doing that to you.
Livingwater posted 01-25-2013 06:29 PM ET (US)
Would a surveyor check the internals on an outboard engine if I requested it or would I need to hire a certified marine mechanic?
Peter posted 01-25-2013 07:17 PM ET (US)
You'd need to hire an outboard mechanic. Basically, the lower unit needs to be dropped and an inspection scope inserted into the exhaust system to inspect the exhaust system.
Livingwater posted 01-28-2013 06:50 PM ET (US)
I gave up on the 2003 Boston Whaler 210 Ventura. Too many problems with the Yamaha 225 caused me to look for something with different power. Back looking for a 21 Conquest

Hop to:

Contact Us | RETURN to ContinuousWave Top Page

Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Freeware Version 2000
Purchase our Licensed Version- which adds many more features!
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.

Author	Topic: c.2004 Mercury 225 FOURSTROKE
Livingwater	posted 01-20-2013 10:50 AM ET (US) I had an Mercury Optimax 150 saltwater series on my 2004 190 Nantucket. I found the engine to be very good on fuel, easy starting however it was extremely noisey. Does anyone have comparisions with the Mercury 225 EFI 4 stroke? Your replies are greatly appreciated.
Livingwater	posted 01-20-2013 10:55 AM ET (US) The reason I'm asking is because my next awesome Boston Whaler is going to be a 210 Ventura.
jimh	posted 01-20-2013 01:11 PM ET (US) The only engine by Mercury that I associate with the description of "225-HP 4 stroke" would be the c.2002 outboard engine that Mercury bought from Yamaha. These were completely Yamaha engines. Mercury was reported to have bought about 4,000 of them, and they were just painted in Mercury's black colors instead of the usual Yamaha blue-gray colors. Perhaps the only change might have been to fit different electrical connectors on them to make them suitable for Mercury rigging harnesses. These 225-HP engines were among the very first four-cycle outboard engines in the 225-HP range. These engines were not particularly sophisticated. They lacked the variable valve timing or cam phasing that was already in wide use in automotive engines. The contemporary HONDA 225-HP four-cycle outboard had variable valve timing. These engines used natural aspiration for fuel induction. They used simple fuel-injection methods and ran in an open loop mode, These Mercury-painted Yamaha engines were characterized by modest power and modest torque, leading to modest acceleration and a general decline in performance compared to a two-cycle outboard engine of the same rated horsepower. Now that these early four-cycle outboard engines are becoming ten years old, there is anecdotal reporting of corrosion problems with them. I am not really expert on the corrosion problems, but I would suggest looking into it further if planning to get one of these engines. Mercury's use of these engines was only for a limited time. In c.2002 Mercury had nothing to offer its customers in this power range except their traditional two-cycle engines or their OptiMax two-cycle engines. At that time, the OptiMax was generally considered to be a risky engine due to rather widely publicized failures and problems. Many customers, and it seems particularly Boston Whaler customers, were demanding an alternative outboard. The quick solution for Mercury was to make a deal with Yamaha to have Yamaha supply these engines to Mercury for re-badging as Mercury engines. This provided Mercury with an engine to fill the demand for a four-cycle in this power range until they could develop their own product. About two years later Mercury was able to bring its own four-cycle engine in this horsepower range to the market. This engine was initially known as Project-X and upon introduction its name was changed to VERADO. The VERADO is a completely different engine than its Yamaha-in-black-paint predecessor.
Livingwater	posted 01-20-2013 03:53 PM ET (US) The engine tag read: 2003 225XL 4ST Max RPM 6000 Weight 583 CE 02 It has an OT serial number. The engine is on a 2003 210 Ventura which I am purchasing.
Peter	posted 01-21-2013 09:20 AM ET (US) That 4-stroke 225 HP motor was made by Yamaha. Some of the Yamaha branded 225 HP 4-stroke outboards of that vintage have had significant exhaust system corrosion requring about $2500 worth of parts and labor to fix. If I were in your situation, I would have the motor inspected for exhaust corrosion. That means that the lower unit has to be dropped and the exhaust system near where it connects to the powerhead examined with a scope. We don't read much about this problem with the Mercury version of the Yamaha F225 but I suspect that its because there were not that many Mercury versions placed in the field as compared to Yamaha.
tedious	posted 01-21-2013 12:18 PM ET (US) Yes, if you do a search on "Yamaha dry exhaust corrosion" you'll find a lot of info. But more generally and in response to your original question, the "MercAha" 225 will have good fuel economy and performance, and in comparison with your Optimax with regard to sound, there really is no comparison. You'll barely be able to hear the motor at idle, and at speed, the wind noise will impede conversation more than will the motor. We have a slightly later F200, and more than once a passenger has asked us if we hadn't better start the motor before pushing off the dock. Tim
Livingwater	posted 01-21-2013 07:47 PM ET (US) I'm going to have the boat surveyed before I purchase it. Is this something a surveyor would always look for while performing an inspection? My dream to own another Boston Whaler is starting to become a nightmare :( I want to thank everyone for making me aware of this possible problem. I have been reading about this on another site.
K Albus	posted 01-21-2013 07:54 PM ET (US) The exhaust corrosion problem is not something that surveyor would normally check for. You will likely have to hire a mechanic to specifically check for this problem. It involves some disassembly of the motor, so the seller may not be keen on allowing an inspection.
Jefecinco	posted 01-22-2013 09:41 AM ET (US) Why a nightmare? Assume the boat is everything you want and the engine has good compression, etc. Is it safe to assume the engine was new in 2003? If so, there should be a lot of life left in the engine assuming it was run 100 hours per year. Even if you have to spend about $2500 to replace any corroded exhaust components it may be a good value. Due to this known potential failure on the engine perhaps you can negotiate a reduction in the asking price to help compensate. I would think it reasonable for the seller to reduce the price by $1200 or more. The Yamaha four stroke engines have a very good reputation for longevity with the exception of the exhaust system. There is a good possibility the replacement components are improved to the point that they no longer are an early failure concern. That is something I would try to determine. Butch
boatdryver	posted 01-22-2013 10:02 AM ET (US) "My dream to own another Boston Whaler is starting to become a nightmare :(" Livingwater, don't give up now. By asking about the motor and receiving all this information you're well equipped to move forward. Its normal to have a used engine which is this expensive to replace checked thoroughly before purchase. Whaler stopped building the Ventura 21 in favor of its new Vantage line. The 230 Vantage is about $90,000. Press on with your engine survey. :) JimL
jimh	posted 01-22-2013 01:29 PM ET (US) Re the exhaust passage corrosion reports: I wonder if these incidents are correlated with saltwater sea water temperature. I note that our prospective buyer is in the New England area, so a local boat run in the ocean in that area might not be subject to the same effects of seawater on the exhaust system as a boat operated in the tropics.
Peter	posted 01-22-2013 07:32 PM ET (US) The corrosion occurs in the dry exhaust so its not clear how seawater would be the cause.
Livingwater	posted 01-22-2013 07:48 PM ET (US) If accurate the hour meter shows 345Hrs on the engine. Question: My 240CS Stingray hour meter would run whenever the ignition key was turned to the "ON" position regardless if the engine was operating. What triggers the hour meter on the Whalers? Note: The 240CS did not have an accessory position. Back to the possible exhaust corrosion. If gone uncheck what mostlikely would happen to the outboard? The boat was used primarily on the South side of Long Island and kept in a slip. I'm not sure if the owner ever flushed out the engine with fresh water other then the obvious winterizing. Long Island Sound is where I am going to use the Ventura, however I will be trailering the boat and like my other boats will ALWAYS run the engine in the driveway and flush with fresh water. I also washed my boats after each use. (Makes for a long, relaxing day) Hopefully everything will work out and I will be wearing a continuous smile.
Peter	posted 01-22-2013 10:36 PM ET (US) Flushing makes no difference. People who flushed regularly still had the corrosion. If left unchecked, holes develop in the exhaust system leading to overheating. Some have had engine block corrosion at the joint with the block. For more info, see http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2012/october/Yamaha-F225-Corrosion-Complaints.asp
Jefecinco	posted 01-23-2013 10:09 AM ET (US) Disclaimer: I know nothing about the engine under discussion. Given the years the engine has been in service it could probably use a new water pump impeller. This will require some amount of lower unit disassembly. How difficult is it to inspect the dry exhaust system while replacing the impeller? Butch
boatdryver	posted 01-23-2013 10:44 AM ET (US) This timely link from Peter's post above makes mandatory reading for Livingwater. Useful in negotiating a fair final purchase price with the seller. And helps explain why used boats with out of warranty high horsepower motors sell for so very much less than new boats with multi-year engine warranties. The sidebar in the lower right corner suggests that one would want to have the right technician do the inspection in this case. http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2012/october/ Yamaha-F225-Corrosion-Complaints.asp JimL
seahorse	posted 01-23-2013 03:41 PM ET (US) For some reason, people talk about the "dry exhaust" corrosion on the Yamaha and the YamaMercs. The corrosion is in the WET exhaust section beloww the powerhead after water exiting the engine block is introduced into the exhaust area for cooling the 1000 degree plus gases. It is the combination of high heat and corrosive salt water at high velocity that eats thru the aluminum components, even with the coating that was added in 2004. Most of the time Yamahas with the corrosion problem are on larger boats and very often overpropped or propped to the lower recommended rpms which greatly increases exhaust temps. It also seems to occur more in southern waters with higher salinity than the northern cold water climates. Year round boating also is a contributing factor.
Jefecinco	posted 01-23-2013 07:26 PM ET (US) Thanks to Peter and Seahorse for some excellent information. If the disassembly required to inspect for damage is no more than that required to replace a water pump impeller I would require an inspection before buying. I would be willing to split the cost of inspection with the seller or pay for it myself if necessary. That is small money to avoid a potential large expense. Butch
jhcorley	posted 01-23-2013 09:50 PM ET (US) I am looking at a 2005 "Mercmaha" 4stroke 250hp with only 5hrs. The owner bought it as a spare he says. Is this year model going to possibly have the corrosion issues?
Livingwater	posted 01-24-2013 06:17 AM ET (US) I haven't read anything directly about Mercury having this problem only the F225 Yamaha. Question: With all the discussion on the 225 what do you think my boat should cost me to purchase? 2003 Bostron WHaler 210 Ventura in "like new condition" (Can still smell the gelcoat/fiberglass) 11/02 MFG. date 2003 225XK EFI 4 stroke 2013 dual axle bunk trailer No electronics Full 2 piece cockpit cover Bimini top I know a lot will depend on the corrosion if any.
Peter	posted 01-24-2013 07:12 AM ET (US) The Mercury versions are not immune to the problem. The guts of the motor are identical to the Yamaha F225. The number of Mercury versions sold are just so low in the number you don't hear much about it. I don't know what a fair price is for a Ventura but if I were in your situation, I would use the corrosion problem as a reason to lower the price. When it comes time to sell, the next prospective buyers will likely be doing that to you.
Livingwater	posted 01-25-2013 06:29 PM ET (US) Would a surveyor check the internals on an outboard engine if I requested it or would I need to hire a certified marine mechanic?
Peter	posted 01-25-2013 07:17 PM ET (US) You'd need to hire an outboard mechanic. Basically, the lower unit needs to be dropped and an inspection scope inserted into the exhaust system to inspect the exhaust system.
Livingwater	posted 01-28-2013 06:50 PM ET (US) I gave up on the 2003 Boston Whaler 210 Ventura. Too many problems with the Yamaha 225 caused me to look for something with different power. Back looking for a 21 Conquest