posted 09-12-2013 08:52 PM ET (US)     

I have a 1999 23-foot Boston Whaler Outrage. Have been on whalers my whole life and love them. Spent my time searching for this specific boat and purchased the boat (and new trailer) in July 2012 for a [steal], knowing that it needed some work. Over the past year, I’ve put a lot of personal time and effort into it (wife could be happier) and restored a lot (replaced the T-Top canvas, two new VHF Fixed Mount w/ internal GPS radios, dual Raymarine e7d screens, HD Rader, new fuel fill hose, new fuel vent, new deck and transom access plates, new bilge pumps, new perko battery switch (two battery setup), new battery cables, new batteries, new 50amp breaker switch and black box, new anchor rode, chain and anchor, new wire terminals on most wiring, new raw water wash down pump, new scuppers, new striping and logos, new rub rail, new fuel lines from tank to water separator, new bulb and new fuel line from water separator to motor, new throttle cables, new accessory switch panel in the transom, spent 5 hours inside the bilge inspecting and cleaning every reachable square inch of grime, and I maintain each square inch of the boat meticulously for safety reasons.

I’m a serious fisherman (run the boat 60+ miles off-shore, (buddy boat style at these distances, along with all the appropriate safety gear) and am in the Tuna / Shark game, regularly playing in the 15 to 30 mile off-shore range). To give perspective on my use of the boat, when I purchased the boat last July the motor (a 2003 Yamaha 250 HPDI 2 stroke) had 185 hours on it; it now has 390 hours on it just over a year later).

Wanted to give some background before stating the question…I’ve been contemplating re-power options for months – both twins and a single and have received at least 2 quotes for each option;

- Single Yamaha 300 (Engine Weight 571lbs) – all in, out the door, approx. $27,500 to $28,500 (3 quotes)
- Single Mercury Verado 300 (Engine Weigh 635lbs) – all in, out the door, approx.. $28,500 to $30,500 (3 quotes)
- Twin Yamaha 150’s (Engine Weigh 491lbs each or 982lbs total) – all in, out the door, approx. $35,000 to $38,500 (3 quotes)
- Twin Mercury 150 4 Strokes (not verado)(Engine Weigh 455lbs each or 910lbs) – all in, out the door, approx. $27,500 - $30,500 (3 quotes)
- Twin Mercury 135 Optimax’s in 1999 – 2002 model when boat was rigged this way (431lbs each at 862lbs total) – difference here to throw on Twin Mercury 4 Strokes is only 48 pounds)

Obviously, the comfort of twins is irreplaceable; however, with today’s modern 4 strokes (including the fact that I have 2 VHF radios, PLB’s, and about to buy a SAT phone), more likely to have a breakdown due to bad fuel, in which case twins doesn’t help at all. I’m fairly handy and carry spare plugs, filters, while out there but I’m interested in opinions on performance with the weight of twins on the transom. Obviously a single 300 at 571lbs (Yamaha) versus Twin Mercury 150’s at 910lbs, will likely offer better performance while under way (NOT concerned by better slow speed maneuverability) I was on a recent shark trip in 3 to 4 footers and every once in a while, when wave spacing got tight, took a couple in the transom – just trying to picture change in performance with another 400 pounds of engine back there. A typical trip for me is 3 people, full tank of fuel, two 92 quart coolers full of crushed ice, safety gear, etc etc. My current setup of 250 works well and can only anticipate better performance with the 300HP. Concerned about added weight on twins and interested to hear opinions in general but also from anyone who has run this boat with the original Twin 135 / 150 setup under load.

I’ve read the discussions on here re: which re-power option to choose for the 1999 – 2002 23 ft Outrage, which included what the standard power was (twin 135 or twin 150 2 stroke); but I am interested, to see any opinions from those that have gone the single 300 4 stroke route versus twin 150 4 stroke route, especially if you find yourself to be an avid fisherman that runs off-shore (susceptible to what the ocean deals) with a full load.

NOTE: I considered and priced other engine makes (Suzuki, Evinrude) but want to stay either Mercury or Yamaha. I have to say, if going for a single, I’d prefer the bull bore and stroke of the Yamaha versus the Verado with the super charger (another component that can break when off-shore) and if I go twins, I will go mercury because of decreased weight and price.

NOTE: I’ve also thought about trying to upgrade to a 26ft to 27ft outrage; but to be honest, my personal opinion is that if the seas are preventing me from feeling comfortable leaving in my 23, then I’m not heading out in a 26/27 footer either; other than gaining more fishing space and storage, despite the 26/27 having an approx. 200 gallon fuel tank versus 167 in mine (it still has an 8ft 6 beam) and with larger twins, fuel economy/range may be worse than my current setup and so I lean towards the re-power.

posted 09-13-2013 09:24 AM ET (US)            

I think LHG is recommending the new Mercury 150-HP FOURSTROKE not VERADO engine. I don't think the old 150-HP two-stroke-cycle EFI engines are available any more.

posted 09-13-2013 09:54 AM ET (US)            

Based on your quotes, it appears the Mercury 150-HP FOURSTROKE not VERADO engine is substantially less expensive than the Yamaha F150. Your quotes show a difference of about $8,000. While the Mercury 150-HP FOURSTROKE not VERADO is a new engine with no track record and of unknown reliability and durability, its substantially lower price is a great attraction. On the other hand, Yamaha has a great reputation for reliability and durability, which may influence your decision.

Since you seem to use your boat over 200-hours each year, you should have plenty of hours on your new engines when the warranty expires. I think this works to your advantage. Most of us only put about 70 hours per year on our engines, so at the end of a three-year warranty we have barely reached 200-hours of operating time. With your operating schedule, in three years you will have over 600-hours. I think that is a plus for you and the warranty coverage. If there are any problems that are going occur due to a defect in the original manufacture, you will have most likely found them in 600-hours of operation. That's like a ten-year warranty coverage for most of us. On that basis, I'd buy the new and untested Mercury engine, and figure that the three-year warranty will provide enough coverage to protect against a failure.

posted 09-13-2013 10:11 AM ET (US)         

This year was a bit atypical re: 200 hours per year due to excess vacation but I'd say I'm more in the range of 100 - 125 hours per year.

Agree on redundancy with twins versus single, especially since I can get the mercury setup for the same price as a single Yamaha / Verado. I think the reliability of the Yamaha 150s speak for themselves; however, the price difference and also the additional weight of each engine, turns me away from those.

My real concern is the extra weight that the Twin 150 Merc 4 Strokes add versus a single 300; anyone out there have experience with Twin Mercury 150 Four strokes on a 23 outrage?

I've searched high and low on the internet and can't find anything. I know Mercury website posts performance specs with certain other boats but no outrages. I also find this odd, considering they offer these Twin 150 setups for their current 220 outrage - I would think they'd have performance specs for the Twin 150 option (this 220 outrage has very similar dry weight, max HP, transom weight, etc).

posted 09-13-2013 10:15 AM ET (US)         

It would still be great to get personal opinions though. I'd be interested in hearing recent re-powers with Twin 150 2 strokes as well since the weight is very similar (I have read all other related threads just checking to see if there are more recent opinions)

posted 09-13-2013 10:18 AM ET (US)         

I think thats it on my end....

posted 09-13-2013 08:30 PM ET (US)         

Buckda - I don't think it's the same hull but to be honest, not entirely certain.

My thoughts are that Whaler wouldn't have rigged the boat standard with Twin 135 / 150 Optimax's back in 1999 - 2003 (431 lbs each or 862 total) if it were to put the boat in a less stable position (rough or calm seas) - which is why I'm thinking Twin 150 Merc 4 strokes at 455 lbs each or 910 lbs total (48 lbs heavier), shouldn't cause any performance variation.

posted 09-14-2013 10:35 AM ET (US)            

Given the very high reliability of late generation four stroke cycle outboards redundant engines are less likely to be needed. I believe your concern about Verado reliability due to supercharging is misplaced. I've been following hundreds of Verado threads on several blogs for about three years and don't remember seeing a single reference to a failed supercharger. I'm sure it has happened but I believe it is a rare occurrence. A supercharger failure does not necessarily cause an engine failure or even cause the engine not to run although the available power would be reduced.

Verados are installed with SmartCraft gauges and electronic throttle & shift controls. My 190 Montauk is powered by a Verado with the electronic controls and they are very nice to use.

posted 09-14-2013 03:21 PM ET (US)            

I will ask the same question as AndyGere.

What is the purpose of the repower? You have a low hour, direct injected Yamaha 250, which gives you the best power to weight ratio of any of the options you are considering.

$28K is a lot of fuel money. Run your current set up until the bitter end.

posted 09-14-2013 10:34 PM ET (US)         

Jim - thanks for the article reference - I've actually read it on this site before and definitely very helpful and a great one

Fishcop / Andy - I agree that modern 4 stroke reliability is great and that most problems are fuel related, which puts me out of luck no matter how many engines; however, despite the low hours on my motor, yamaha hpdi's are the "problem child" engine of yamaha and without unrelenting attention, can provide problems (especially in the VST tank/filter); and while I try to buddy boat at those distances off shore, there is also plenty of times I'm out by myself (even with 3 vhfs, plb"s, float plan, etc etc) running on a 10 year old engine is more of what's on my mind, especially since I wasn't the original owner (I maintain everything meticulously and wouldn't have concern on a 10 year motor if it was mine since inception) ; reason for repower is because of spending time off shore; I would prefer the single 300 for performance but mechanical failures can happen too and despite sea tow insurance, it's a comfort feeling twin 2 screws; even with a single 300 and a high thrust kicker (kicker is tied in to main fuel tank), fuel could get the best of hat as well;

posted 09-15-2013 01:14 AM ET (US)            

quote:

---

unfortunately the 300 verado demands premium gas versus the 300 yamaha, which does not

---

posted 09-15-2013 02:46 AM ET (US)            

It seems to me that twin engines are definitely the safest way to rig any boat that goes beyond the line of sight of shore.

I just removed two 1989 Yamaha 200 2-strokes with 1100 hrs on them and replaced them with new four-stroke 300's. Those 200's purred like kittens...ummm...maybe I should say roared like lions...anyway, they were running as good when I took them off as they day they were made. If I am going out to the continental shelf from my home port, I am looking at a 225 mile round trip. A lot can happen to all the systems on a boat, including the engines, on these trips, to me it isn't worth it to be worried about power to make it back.

Even short trips within 20 miles from shore can get dicey. The worst situation I have ever been faced with, in a recreational fishing vessel, occurred less than 15 miles offshore out of Sargent TX back in about 1986 or so.

I was much younger back then in every way, and when a cousin of mine from up north came down and wanted to go kingfishing with me, I obliged, even though I knew there was a tropical depression headed our way. I had a very experienced partner to go with us, and his wife already knew we were crazy, but she actually go mad at him that time when she overheard us discussing this attempt. Of course, she was right, and I didn't discuss the weather with my own wife, and avoided that pitfall myself at the time. Anyway, off we went!

We decided to trailer the boat down to Sargent Tx and launch at the closest point to the shrimp boats that day in order to minimize time in transit on the water. It was a standard hit and run plan, we did these all the time successfully. Hit the fish real hard, then outrun the storm back to the marina. Seas were 1-3 at Sargent when we left the marina.

We were on a 26' CC Robalo with twin 225 HP Johnsons about 9 NM out of Sargent, drift fishing at a shrimp boat with great success, when I noticed that each time we completed a drift and got the fish in the boat and we restarted the engines and returned to the side of the shrimp boat, it seemed that the seas were getting heavier and the winds were picking up.

That boat was fast, it was capable of 70 mph + at wide open throttle, and I was used to letting the raindrops start hitting me before leaving the area of an approaching storm to get away from them if the fish were cooperating. We were landing King Mackerel in excess of 45 lbs on EVERY drift. It's hard to leave a phenomenal bite like that!Before I realized it, we were in 10 ft swells and the wind was still picking up. I figured it was time to dash, hit the starters on both motors and only one fired up. I had shut down and restarted both motors at least 15 times since we had started catching fish, but now, when I needed them, only the left-hand rotating engine would start! These engines were only 2 years old at the time. Maybe 400-500 hrs on them.

We all tried to pull start that engine with the bad starter solenoid, and while I was busy nearly breaking my neck on that unsuccessful effort, it started raining...HARD...and blowing at what we later found out was eventually up to 50 mph. We had to get out of there, so we used the one good engine to try to make it back. Visibility got so bad we knew that we would not be able to navigate the tricky reentry through the beach pass into the cut at Sargent, so now we had to set a course towards Freeport, 30 miles farther, instead. These were back before the days of GPS, but we did have LORAN. It's pretty hard to use a laminated chart and a protractor on a small boat like this one in 10-12 seas and blowing 40 mph rain, but, we got a reasonable compass heading and fought our way back towards the docks near Freeport.

That boat had the old feedback steering system, and that trip was awful! We had to fight the tendency of the boat to turn in a circle all the way back in driving rain with no visibility. We all had to take turns holding that wheel on course as best we could until we got to the Freeport jetties, and into the river to dock on the Intracoastal.

Those were in the days before cel phones, and my partner got to a phone and called his wife. After a lot of "yes, dears" from his end, he finally convinced her to come pick us dummys up and take us to Sargent so we could get the truck and the trailer in order to return to Freeport to retrieve the boat. She took her time getting there, but we were sure glad she made it eventually! That was the longest 30 miles I have ever spent in the backseat of a car...all of us were continually reminded of our stupidity by that woman's incessant tirade for the entire distance. We got the truck and trailer and then drove back and got the boat, and on our trip back from Sargent, barely a word was spoken between us, we were all just stunned to have had made it out of that mess alive!

posted 09-15-2013 08:43 AM ET (US)         

Glad to hear that you and your crew made it back safe then but what an experience and nice 26 Robalo!
Earlier in the thread I talked about potentially upgrading to a early 2000's 26 foot outrage but my conclusion really is that if the seas / weather are preventing me from going in my 23 then I wouldn't be going in my 26 either and aside from 200 gallon fuel versus my 167 gallon and some more storage space...the beam is the same at 8ft 6 and I don't see fuel economy / range being better on that setup (heavier boat and bigger twins with only approx. 30 incremental gallons).

posted 09-15-2013 10:23 AM ET (US)            

This is not a bash of Yamaha. They have a good reputation for a reason. I don't know which Yamaha models have been affected by the corrosion problem but a search will provide any some examples.

The new Mercury 150 Four Stroke, not Verado, is too new in the marketplace to have any failure history so perhaps it's a wash between the makers.

posted 09-15-2013 12:21 PM ET (US)            

The Conquest version of that hull had a ~400 lb lead ballast kit in the stern on boats that were equipped with a single outboard to compensate for not having the weight of twin outboards on the transom. I don't know whether they did this on the Outrage but if you go with twins, check to make sure that your boat with a single outboard was not equipped with lead ballast compensator. If it was, remove it.

There is an Outrage 23 near me that had twin Mercury Optimax 135s. It was repowered in the last year or so with twin Evinrude E-TEC 150s.

posted 09-15-2013 05:08 PM ET (US)            

I totally get it...You need confidence, no matter what motor setup you have. I ran my 24 Outrage with a Single 225 Optimax around 700 hours offshore. Never a problem with the motor/fuel. Just total electrical outage from lightning and once hit a floating telephone pole. Stalled the motor, but she keep on going. I currently have twin Yamaha 250hp OX66's on my Conquest and hope they last another 10 years!

I think you have answered your own question and will most likely be happiest with twin motors. I am not brand specific, but would go with the best setup of HP/Weight that your boat can handle. There are many of our patrol boats powered with twin Honda 150's and twin Yamaha 225/250's that run great and have had no issues of any kind.

I would be less concerned with fuel contamination and more concerned about fuel consumption. Your boat should have about 150 gallons of usable fuel. So figure 75gal per motor with twins at a burn rate of ??? per motor. That can give you your range and with your typ of fishing, should be fine. Not sure where you are running out of, but figure going to another harbor or shelter if the weather turns and calculate that into your range. I know there are soooo many variables, and "What If's", so please email me with any questions.

posted 09-18-2013 09:16 AM ET (US)         

silentpardner - agree - I'm thinking the 115's would be light in terms of power and while i doubt a single 115 or a single 150 will plane out the boat assuming loss of an engine, while under way under normal operation the motors will barely have to work with twin 150s

Peter - thanks - bet those ETecs look nice - I'm trying to stay away from 2 strokes (get rid of having to always think about 2 stroke oil), but I may just get a quick estimate of the 150 2 stroke Opti's just to see if there is substantial price variance

Fishcop - i just looked at the (Outrage 220 currently in production) specs with the Twin 115 and Twin 150 4 stroke setups; this boat's dry weight with no engine is approx 3,100 pounds compared to my approx 3,400 pounds; it holds 115 gallons of fuel compared to my 167 gallons.

Twin 115 setup with a test weight of 5,312lbs (versus my approx 6,500 with all gear for off shore)
NOTE: I DON"T THINK THESE 115 4 strokes come in counter rotating props but not certain
4000 RPMS - 25.1MPH - 8.3gph - 2.63nmpg
4500 RPMS - 29.3MPH - 9.1gph - 2.80nmpg
5000 RPMS - 34.1MPH - 12.3gph - 2.41nmpg
5500 RPMS - 37.8MPH - 15.7gph - 2.09nmpg
6000 RPMS - 42.3MPH - 20.5gph - 1.79nmpg

Twin 150 4 stroke setup with test weight of 5,638lbs compared to my approx 6,500 lbs with all gear for off shore:
3250 RPMS - 27.1MPH - 9.1gph - 2.59nmpg
3500 RPMS - 30.4MPH - 10.8gph - 2.44nmpg
4000 RPMS - 34.9MPH - 13.8gph - 2.20nmpg
4500 RPMS - 39.7MPH - 17.0gph - 2.03nmpg
5000 RPMS - 44.8MPH - 22.3gph - 1.74nmpg
5500 RPMS - 50.3MPH - 29.0gph - 1.51nmpg
5800 RPMS - 52.2MPH - 28.8gph - 1.57nmpg

posted 09-19-2013 12:29 PM ET (US)         

I've called whaler and basically their view was that the Twin 135 / 150 Optimax setup from back when the boat was originally produced was a total of approx. 862 lbs and there was no published max transom weight in 1999. Whaler said that by adding Twin 150 Merc 4 strokes (910 lbs) or Twin 150 Yamaha 4 strokes (982 lbs) shouldn't really make a difference as the new 220 outrage (essentially the same boat as ours) has a published max transom weight of 910 lbs, which further supported whalers view that the Twin Setup should be fine (basically 120lbs more than stated max). I'm still a bit skeptical with the added transom weight of the twins as my typical load is as follows:

Dry Weight - 3,350
Twin Yamaha 150 - 982
2 Batteries @ 60l lbs each - 120
Ice - 200
3 people @ 185lbs - 555
TTop Estimate - 300
Fishing Gear & Bait - 150
Anchor & Anchor Rode - 100
Other safety gear (life raft) - 100
TOTAL 6,943lbs

When considering Single 300 versus twins, it's a function of price, added weight, added maintenance and re-sale. I'm really not a fan of how kickers look esthetically on boats and I've been quoted approx $3,500 all in to install aa high thrust 9.9HP high output yamaha kicker. Just got another quote today on a single 300 Yamaha. After looking at the quotes I received for each of the below setups - I spoke to 9 different places and ultimately had 3 quotes for each setup below - after considering the quality of the marina and ease of serviceability based on how close I live to them, these are what I consider to be the overall best pricing given the reputation of the dealers (e.g., quotes may have been slightly higher than others but worth it because of reputation of the place)

Single 300 Yamaha 4 stroke - $23,876 (ALL IN after tax and with PROPS)

Single 300 Mercury Verado - $30,000 (ALL IN after tax and with PROPS)

Twin Mercury 150 4 Strokes - $28,792 (ALL IN after tax and with PROPS)

Twin Yamaha 150 4 Strokes - $31,509 (ALL IN after tax and with PROPS)

posted 09-20-2013 11:50 AM ET (US)         

Best

posted 09-20-2013 11:52 AM ET (US)         

You can try me at jcornell@deloitte.com

Regards,

posted 10-01-2013 03:25 PM ET (US)         

NOTE (1) : Each price reflects $3,000 trade-in on my current motor.
NOTE (2): Quotes include all labor, rigging, gauges, harnesses, stainless props, fuel hoses, primer bulbs, filters, throttle,

Single Yamaha 300 HP (V6 4.2L) - $23,876 (all in) - 571 lbs
Twin Mercury 150 4 stroke - $28,792 (all in) - 910 lbs
Twin Yamaha 150 4 stroke - $31,509 (all in) - 982 lbs
Twin Yamaha 115 4 stroke - $23,360 (all in) - 816 lbs

Twin Yamaha 115 Performance Bulletin on Sailfish 2360 CC with a test weight of 6,594 lbs (right on with my fully loaded weight)

1000 RPMS - 4.2MPH - 1.2GPH - 3.5MPG
1500 RPMS - 6.1MPH - 2.0GPH - 3.05MPG
2000 RPMS - 7.3MPH - 2.7GPH - 2.70MPG
2500 RPMS - 8.5MPH - 4.2GPH - 2.02MPG
3000 RPMS - 9.1MPH - 6.1GPH - 1.49MPG
3500 RPMS - 10.7MPH - 8.2GPH - 1.31MPG
4000 RPMS - 23.8MPH - 10.5GPH - 2.27MPG
4500 RPMS - 29.0MPH - 12.1GPH - 2.40MPG
5000 RPMS - 34.0MPH - 13.9GPH - 2.45MPG
5500 RPMS - 37.4MPH - 17.2GPH - 2.17MPG
6000 RPMS - 40.7MPH - 22.0GPH - 1.85MPG

Twin Yamaha 115 Performance Bulletin on Regulator 23CC with a test weight of 6,279lbs

1000 RPMS - 4.6MPH - 1.1GPH - 4.18MPG -
2000 RPMS - 7.8MPH - 2.9GPH - 2.69MPG
3000 RPMS - 11.5MPH - 5.8GPH - 1.98MPG
4000 RPMS - 26.3MPH - 8.6GPH - 3.06MPG
5000 RPMS - 36.1MPH - 12.9GPH - 2.80MPG
5900 RPMS - 42.7MPH - 20.0GPH - 2.14MPG

Twin 150 Mercury 4 stroke setup (220 Outrage) with test weight of 5,638lbs compared to my approx 6,500 lbs with all gear for off shore:

3250 RPMS - 27.1MPH - 9.1gph - 2.59nmpg
3500 RPMS - 30.4MPH - 10.8gph - 2.44nmpg
4000 RPMS - 34.9MPH - 13.8gph - 2.20nmpg
4500 RPMS - 39.7MPH - 17.0gph - 2.03nmpg
5000 RPMS - 44.8MPH - 22.3gph - 1.74nmpg
5500 RPMS - 50.3MPH - 29.0gph - 1.51nmpg
5800 RPMS - 52.2MPH - 28.8gph - 1.57nmpg

Single Yamaha 300 (V6 4.2L) 23 Regulator with test weight of 6,520 lbs

1000 RPMS - 5.1MPH - 1.2GPH - 4.25MPG
1500 RPMS - 7.0MPH - 2.1GPH - 3.33MPG
2000 RPMS - 8.2MPH - 3.5GPH - 2.34MPG
2500 RPMS - 9.0MPH - 5.4GPH - 1.67MPG
3000 RPMS - 10.3MPH - 7.1GPH - 1.45MPG
3500 RPMS - 19.7MPH - 8.9GPH - 2.21MPG
4000 RPMS - 29.8MPH - 11.8GPH - 2.53MPG
4500 RPMS - 35.1MPH - 15.1GPH - 2.33MPG
5000 RPMS - 39.9MPH - 17.9GPH - 2.23MPG
5500 RPMS - 43.7MPH - 22.4GPH - 1.95MPG
5900 RPMS - 46.9MPH - 26.7GPH - 1.76MPG

posted 10-01-2013 09:33 PM ET (US)         

Marina #1: Single Verado 300 - $30,223 (all in)
Marina #1: Twin Merc 150 4 Strokes - $30,330 (all in)

Marina #2: Twin Yamaha 150s - $38,500 (all in)
Marina #2: Single Yamaha 300 (V6 4.2L) $28,500 (all in)

Marina #3: Single Suzuki 300 - $27,114 (all in)
Marina #3: Twin Suzuki 140 - $30,084 (all in)
Marina #3: Twin Suzuki 150 - $33,888 (all in)

Marina #4: Twin 150 Yamaha - $31,509 (all in)
Marina #4: Twin 150 Merc - $28,792 (all in)
Marina #4: Single Yamaha 300 (V6 4.2L) - $23,876 (all in)

Marina #5: Twin Mercury 150 - $27,965 (all in)
Marina #5: Twin Yamaha 150 - $36,180 (all in)

Marina #6: Twin Mercury 150 - $30,422 (all in)