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Author Topic:   All Over The Map - 11/4/00

jimh posted 11-04-2000 10:11 AM ET (US)
Please use this thread to comment on the photographs from the November 4th edition of CETACEA Page 24.
--jimh
lhg posted 11-04-2000 04:14 PM ET (US)
The leaning post looks nicely done, but I am now convinced it is not a Boston Whaler original item. I have all of the catalogs covering the years the 25 Outrage was produced (1981 - 1993), including the accessory catalogs, and there is no such animal shown or indicated!
lhg posted 11-04-2000 05:57 PM ET (US)
In looking at these Outrages in detail, I notice that both show a center console that was first used in 1986 model year. This same mold is still being used for the current Montauks. The give-away is the slope of the instrument panels. Earlier 1983-1985 models had a more vertical panel slope. The 25 outrage is mentioned as early 80's, which if the console is original, it must be 86 or later. Same goes for Jim's full transom 18 Outrage. I'll bet that's an 86 model, manufactured in late 1985, which the ID plate would show.
jimh posted 11-05-2000 02:08 PM ET (US)
I really dig that big Armstrong bracket on the 18-Outrage. It looks like it is almost three feet long!
I also notice the skeg is missing on the outboard lower unit. Was that intentional (to reduce draft)?
And the restored 13-footer look absolutely pristine. If Whaler had those sitting on the dealer's floor at $7995, I think they'd be flying out the door so fast you couldn't keep up production.
--jimh
Peter posted 11-05-2000 05:44 PM ET (US)
Did this 18 originally come with an Armstrong bracket or was this boat originally fit with an OMC Sea Drive and later fitted with an Armstrong bracket?
lhg posted 11-05-2000 11:52 PM ET (US)
Not to speak for the owner, but I would guess the Armstrong bracket was a replacement for the Sea Drive. In 1986, Armstrong had not yet brought out that particular design for a bracket.
It should be noted that this transom configuration, as neat as it was, was only produced for a year or two, and preceeded BW's introduction of the Whaler Drive in 1987. I always thought it was curious that BW discontinued the Full Transom 18 Outrage in 1987, and never offered a Whaler Drive for it, instead going back to the traditional notched outboard transom. I later found out that BW thought the 18 was too small for a conventional 26" setback transom bracket. They believed the 20 was the minimum length boat for a transom bracket/Whaler Drive. The OMC Sea Drive had a brilliant idea in installing and outboard engine on a full transom boat, either new or re-powering an inboard, with set back engine configuration. But the advent of the transom bracket design quickly obsoleted the complex & costly Sea Drive bracket/tilt mechanism. BW really only used them from 1984 - 1986, after which they brought out the Whaler Drive.
hauptjm posted 11-06-2000 10:23 AM ET (US)
Thanks for the comments. The bracket on the 18 was not original as Larry stated. It was originally a Sea Drive. In 1995, she was repowered with the Oceanrunner and the bracket was installed, as was the hydraulic steering. Hydraulic steering is required with a bracket, because you otherwise would have a huge "loop" of mechanical steering line shooting off the transom. As for the skeg, it is in fact whole; the camera angle makes it look like it was cut off. Larry, my stern tag shows '85. Is there a way to tell if it was a late '85 made as an '86 model? Your comments regarding the console have me curious. When I contacted Whaler, they just said manufactured in 1985. Of course, the title has '85, but as you have said before, these dates can drift on the titles of older boats. As far as the Bracket is concerned: I have a good friend who is a Naval Architect and was very intrigued with the combination of this bracket's length and the length of the boat. The bracket is just about 30 inches off of the transom. His concern had to do with something he called the "L". Apparently, a measurement ratio of some kind (or designer slang). Regardless, after riding in the boat he was very impressed at the control and apparent efficiency it created. Trim control is unbelievable. I'm sure Larry will back me up on this. His big 25, I'll bet, can be dialed in for just about anything. I've run my heavier 18 (slightly) against an '86 with same engine, but a cut-out transom, and dusted him on the hole shot, as well as top-end. Oddly enough, a bracket supposedly helps with fuel consumption.
hauptjm posted 11-06-2000 10:36 AM ET (US)
last note:
No windshield! Not intentional, waiting to have a new one made at a local plastics firm.
Backlash posted 11-07-2000 02:06 PM ET (US)
Jim,
Very nice and rare 18. I really like your Armstrong bracket. What model is it? I saw a similar one at a trade show in Chicago a couple of years ago. The single engine bracket is very "racy" looking.
Steve
jimh posted 11-08-2000 10:20 AM ET (US)
Good point about the hydraulic steering being a necessity with the bracket. I hadn't thought about that before, but as you describe, it would be difficult to use cable steering with such a bracket.
Moving the engine off the transom gets expensive. There's the bracket, the hydraulic steering, perhaps new cables for the engine controls--it's a big jump.
--jimh
hauptjm posted 07-12-2001 03:33 PM ET (US)
I got information from Chuck Bennett at Whaler regarding the date my boat was manufactured, and it may clear up some confusion on a change of console options.
lhg and several others thought the standard console I have on an '85 18OR was first offered in '86. Current Montauks still use these consoles to this day. However, this is not the case. My boat was manufactured in December of 1984 for delivery to the dealer in February of '85. The console is original and was first made available to Outrages and Montauks in 1985. Chuck pointed out the 1985 brochure I have has a picture of my boat with this console.
I'm not nitpicking this issue, but rather was beginning to wonder if my boat was actually an '85 or '86 model. I didn't buy it new, so I was curious.
lhg posted 07-12-2001 05:57 PM ET (US)
Jim - I took a close look at the console on your boat, and from what I can tell my earlier comments regarding your console design were wrong.
Your boat seems to have the nearly vertical instrument panel/steering wheel design, which would clearly make it an 85 boat. This console was first introduced in 1983. In 1986, they eased the instrument panel/wheel back, so it was easier to read, and this design still persists today in the Montauk. The photo above yours, showing the custom leaning post, has the 1986 and later "montauk" console, as I have in my 1986.
I'm glad Chuck Bennett straightened this out for you/us.
wcp posted 12-13-2001 04:58 PM ET (US)
I am new to this and looking at a Sea Drive. Whay would you go from a transom mount to a sea drive. Is the ride better, more efficient? In buying a 1986 boat with a sea drive....should I stay away from it?
Thanks
lhg posted 12-13-2001 05:51 PM ET (US)
Sea Drives are basically worthless, even if they run, so base your purchase price on this principle. Pay only what you think the unpowered, unrigged, hull is worth.
The reason for this is that first of all, OMC is out of business, and secondly, even before they went out, they had ceased production of spare Sea Drive parts. Because Bombardier is still supporting most of the prior OMC engine parts, you could still possibly get engine repairs done, but not the Sea Drive mechanism. Your only source would be the junkyards.
Look at it this way: run the Sea Drive(s) until they drop or cease to function properly, then you will have the expense of a major conversion and repowering. This will include refinishing of the transom, all new controls and steering, a transom bracket, and of course, replacement engine(s).
Unless you REALLY want the boat, such as a full transom 22 or 25' late 80's Whaler in good condition, I'd skip it.
jimh posted 12-13-2001 11:29 PM ET (US)
The Whaler with Sea Drive power is at once the best of all worlds and the worst of all worlds.
The down side has been described by LHG above. The SeaDrive engines are probably not a long term proposition for powering the boat.
The up side is that the hull has the wonderful full transom feature, with nice stern lockers and hatches. There are desireable features.
The conversion will be complicated and expensive; it might also take a while. You have to factor the time and cost into your decision. The end result could be very nice.
[Added link back to Cetacea Page.]
hauptjm posted 12-14-2001 10:01 AM ET (US)
wcp,
lhg and jimh are right on target. I would absolutely buy the boat if you were of the mindset that the engine is trash. Only, pay hull value!!! With that said if you can come to a price that you deem fair, do it. You won't regret the hull purchase. As jimh pointed out, you'll spend a fair amount on rigging that doesn't come with traditionally mounted outboards. The bracket can easily cost $800.00+, and will require hydraulic steering that can run $1,000.00+ depending on the brand. And of course, the labor cost to install properly can run as much as the materials.
One thing I would advise: don't go cheap! If you're going to hang your engine out as much as 30 inches off the transom, and go through the expense and luxury of hydraulic steering, do it right. I've seen crappy jobs that end up costing more than if they would have done it right in the first place. Besides, you can ruin the transom with a poorly designed/installed bracket.
Taylor posted 12-14-2001 03:02 PM ET (US)
wcp - make sure you read the article on engine brackets if you have not already...
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/engineBrackets.html

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Author	Topic: All Over The Map - 11/4/00
jimh	posted 11-04-2000 10:11 AM ET (US) Please use this thread to comment on the photographs from the November 4th edition of CETACEA Page 24. --jimh
lhg	posted 11-04-2000 04:14 PM ET (US) The leaning post looks nicely done, but I am now convinced it is not a Boston Whaler original item. I have all of the catalogs covering the years the 25 Outrage was produced (1981 - 1993), including the accessory catalogs, and there is no such animal shown or indicated!
lhg	posted 11-04-2000 05:57 PM ET (US) In looking at these Outrages in detail, I notice that both show a center console that was first used in 1986 model year. This same mold is still being used for the current Montauks. The give-away is the slope of the instrument panels. Earlier 1983-1985 models had a more vertical panel slope. The 25 outrage is mentioned as early 80's, which if the console is original, it must be 86 or later. Same goes for Jim's full transom 18 Outrage. I'll bet that's an 86 model, manufactured in late 1985, which the ID plate would show.
jimh	posted 11-05-2000 02:08 PM ET (US) I really dig that big Armstrong bracket on the 18-Outrage. It looks like it is almost three feet long! I also notice the skeg is missing on the outboard lower unit. Was that intentional (to reduce draft)? And the restored 13-footer look absolutely pristine. If Whaler had those sitting on the dealer's floor at $7995, I think they'd be flying out the door so fast you couldn't keep up production. --jimh
Peter	posted 11-05-2000 05:44 PM ET (US) Did this 18 originally come with an Armstrong bracket or was this boat originally fit with an OMC Sea Drive and later fitted with an Armstrong bracket?
lhg	posted 11-05-2000 11:52 PM ET (US) Not to speak for the owner, but I would guess the Armstrong bracket was a replacement for the Sea Drive. In 1986, Armstrong had not yet brought out that particular design for a bracket. It should be noted that this transom configuration, as neat as it was, was only produced for a year or two, and preceeded BW's introduction of the Whaler Drive in 1987. I always thought it was curious that BW discontinued the Full Transom 18 Outrage in 1987, and never offered a Whaler Drive for it, instead going back to the traditional notched outboard transom. I later found out that BW thought the 18 was too small for a conventional 26" setback transom bracket. They believed the 20 was the minimum length boat for a transom bracket/Whaler Drive. The OMC Sea Drive had a brilliant idea in installing and outboard engine on a full transom boat, either new or re-powering an inboard, with set back engine configuration. But the advent of the transom bracket design quickly obsoleted the complex & costly Sea Drive bracket/tilt mechanism. BW really only used them from 1984 - 1986, after which they brought out the Whaler Drive.
hauptjm	posted 11-06-2000 10:23 AM ET (US) Thanks for the comments. The bracket on the 18 was not original as Larry stated. It was originally a Sea Drive. In 1995, she was repowered with the Oceanrunner and the bracket was installed, as was the hydraulic steering. Hydraulic steering is required with a bracket, because you otherwise would have a huge "loop" of mechanical steering line shooting off the transom. As for the skeg, it is in fact whole; the camera angle makes it look like it was cut off. Larry, my stern tag shows '85. Is there a way to tell if it was a late '85 made as an '86 model? Your comments regarding the console have me curious. When I contacted Whaler, they just said manufactured in 1985. Of course, the title has '85, but as you have said before, these dates can drift on the titles of older boats. As far as the Bracket is concerned: I have a good friend who is a Naval Architect and was very intrigued with the combination of this bracket's length and the length of the boat. The bracket is just about 30 inches off of the transom. His concern had to do with something he called the "L". Apparently, a measurement ratio of some kind (or designer slang). Regardless, after riding in the boat he was very impressed at the control and apparent efficiency it created. Trim control is unbelievable. I'm sure Larry will back me up on this. His big 25, I'll bet, can be dialed in for just about anything. I've run my heavier 18 (slightly) against an '86 with same engine, but a cut-out transom, and dusted him on the hole shot, as well as top-end. Oddly enough, a bracket supposedly helps with fuel consumption.
hauptjm	posted 11-06-2000 10:36 AM ET (US) last note: No windshield! Not intentional, waiting to have a new one made at a local plastics firm.
Backlash	posted 11-07-2000 02:06 PM ET (US) Jim, Very nice and rare 18. I really like your Armstrong bracket. What model is it? I saw a similar one at a trade show in Chicago a couple of years ago. The single engine bracket is very "racy" looking. Steve
jimh	posted 11-08-2000 10:20 AM ET (US) Good point about the hydraulic steering being a necessity with the bracket. I hadn't thought about that before, but as you describe, it would be difficult to use cable steering with such a bracket. Moving the engine off the transom gets expensive. There's the bracket, the hydraulic steering, perhaps new cables for the engine controls--it's a big jump. --jimh
hauptjm	posted 07-12-2001 03:33 PM ET (US) I got information from Chuck Bennett at Whaler regarding the date my boat was manufactured, and it may clear up some confusion on a change of console options. lhg and several others thought the standard console I have on an '85 18OR was first offered in '86. Current Montauks still use these consoles to this day. However, this is not the case. My boat was manufactured in December of 1984 for delivery to the dealer in February of '85. The console is original and was first made available to Outrages and Montauks in 1985. Chuck pointed out the 1985 brochure I have has a picture of my boat with this console. I'm not nitpicking this issue, but rather was beginning to wonder if my boat was actually an '85 or '86 model. I didn't buy it new, so I was curious.
lhg	posted 07-12-2001 05:57 PM ET (US) Jim - I took a close look at the console on your boat, and from what I can tell my earlier comments regarding your console design were wrong. Your boat seems to have the nearly vertical instrument panel/steering wheel design, which would clearly make it an 85 boat. This console was first introduced in 1983. In 1986, they eased the instrument panel/wheel back, so it was easier to read, and this design still persists today in the Montauk. The photo above yours, showing the custom leaning post, has the 1986 and later "montauk" console, as I have in my 1986. I'm glad Chuck Bennett straightened this out for you/us.
wcp	posted 12-13-2001 04:58 PM ET (US) I am new to this and looking at a Sea Drive. Whay would you go from a transom mount to a sea drive. Is the ride better, more efficient? In buying a 1986 boat with a sea drive....should I stay away from it? Thanks
lhg	posted 12-13-2001 05:51 PM ET (US) Sea Drives are basically worthless, even if they run, so base your purchase price on this principle. Pay only what you think the unpowered, unrigged, hull is worth. The reason for this is that first of all, OMC is out of business, and secondly, even before they went out, they had ceased production of spare Sea Drive parts. Because Bombardier is still supporting most of the prior OMC engine parts, you could still possibly get engine repairs done, but not the Sea Drive mechanism. Your only source would be the junkyards. Look at it this way: run the Sea Drive(s) until they drop or cease to function properly, then you will have the expense of a major conversion and repowering. This will include refinishing of the transom, all new controls and steering, a transom bracket, and of course, replacement engine(s). Unless you REALLY want the boat, such as a full transom 22 or 25' late 80's Whaler in good condition, I'd skip it.
jimh	posted 12-13-2001 11:29 PM ET (US) The Whaler with Sea Drive power is at once the best of all worlds and the worst of all worlds. The down side has been described by LHG above. The SeaDrive engines are probably not a long term proposition for powering the boat. The up side is that the hull has the wonderful full transom feature, with nice stern lockers and hatches. There are desireable features. The conversion will be complicated and expensive; it might also take a while. You have to factor the time and cost into your decision. The end result could be very nice. [Added link back to Cetacea Page.]
hauptjm	posted 12-14-2001 10:01 AM ET (US) wcp, lhg and jimh are right on target. I would absolutely buy the boat if you were of the mindset that the engine is trash. Only, pay hull value!!! With that said if you can come to a price that you deem fair, do it. You won't regret the hull purchase. As jimh pointed out, you'll spend a fair amount on rigging that doesn't come with traditionally mounted outboards. The bracket can easily cost $800.00+, and will require hydraulic steering that can run $1,000.00+ depending on the brand. And of course, the labor cost to install properly can run as much as the materials. One thing I would advise: don't go cheap! If you're going to hang your engine out as much as 30 inches off the transom, and go through the expense and luxury of hydraulic steering, do it right. I've seen crappy jobs that end up costing more than if they would have done it right in the first place. Besides, you can ruin the transom with a poorly designed/installed bracket.
Taylor	posted 12-14-2001 03:02 PM ET (US) wcp - make sure you read the article on engine brackets if you have not already... http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/engineBrackets.html