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Author Topic:   Page 46: Whose Revenge Is It? Dec. 10, 2001
jimh posted 12-10-2001 10:14 PM ET (US)   Profile for jimh   Send Email to jimh  
This message thread is for comment on Cetacea Page 46 concerning the REVENGE models of Boston Whaler. The article first appeared December 10, 2001, and featured photographs from Charles and Steve Warren.
jimh posted 12-10-2001 10:21 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Any one with better insight on the real inspiration of the "revenge" nameplate, jump in here!
Blackeagle posted 12-11-2001 12:52 PM ET (US)     Profile for Blackeagle  Send Email to Blackeagle     
Very nice Jim!

I'm a bit reluctant to make a suggestion that would burden you with even more to do on top of your huge e-mail pile, but I will anyway. Personally I'd like to see pictures of some of the small details of the Revenge Walk-Through like the ladder and fordeck step, along with some pictures of the interior of the cuddy.

Macman posted 12-11-2001 01:22 PM ET (US)     Profile for Macman  Send Email to Macman     
JimH ....I am very appreciative of your retrospective on this boat. Excellent job!
I have always thought that a mid-eighties Revenge 22 would be my next boat.These photos will sustain me over the Maine winter!
Thanks again.
jimh posted 12-11-2001 03:30 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I am planning an article contrasting the Outrage Cuddy and the Revenge, and I'll show the details a bit more in that. You have to leave something for next time!
jimh posted 12-11-2001 03:32 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Regarding Steve's fine 22-Revenge:

I like your canvas set up. The top frame looks like it is not as heavy or as large-size tubing as many radar arches, yet it provides part of that functionality.

--jimh

andygere posted 12-11-2001 04:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
JimH,
A great history on the Revenge. I have always liked these boats, and hope to one day own one. There is a very clean late 80's 22 berthed near my Montauk, and I often walk the long way back to the car just to stop and admire it. I look forward to your Outrage 22 Cuddy/Revenge 22 comparison article.
Blackeagle posted 12-11-2001 06:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for Blackeagle  Send Email to Blackeagle     
The Outrage Cuddy/Revenge article sounds great. I'm looking forward to it as well.
Taylor posted 12-11-2001 07:40 PM ET (US)     Profile for Taylor  Send Email to Taylor     
My put [take?] on the name is the that 'Living well is the best revenge' as the expression goes. Maybe the creature comforts of the windshield, seats and cuddy were "living well."
jimh posted 12-11-2001 10:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
[moved a follow-up post from csj to the Mods/Repairs FORUM--jimh.]
lhg posted 12-11-2001 11:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Can it be? I'm looking at a pair of BLACK Johnson outboards on the 22 Revenge? Surely nobody would be guilty of such a crime!
Russ posted 12-12-2001 03:15 AM ET (US)     Profile for Russ  Send Email to Russ     
Hello Jim,
As the owner of an 1981, Original Revenge V-22, I'm interested in some of the details in the article. Some "tweaking" of the original hull's deadrise and running surface was mentioned. What changes were made, and what did they accomplish? The "smirk" on mine looks the same as the one on the later one as far as I can see. Is it somehow different?
And, the configuration of the bow rail, and side rails on the first V-22 isn't all bad. It's pretty handy in docking operations. The tired canvas shown on the original boat is Mills, I believe, because it's the same style as mine, which has the original canvas and the labels. However mine is in nearly new conditon. I'll reserve the other items of my concern for maybe another time.
I'm in the process of giving mine the TLC treatment. Removing the ugly red bottom paint is the first job. Refinishing the teak is next. 'Too bad a bristol Original Revenge V-22 wasn't included in the photos. Perhaps some day mine will qualify.
Thanks for the Revenge pictures and information, and Continuouswave
Russ
jimh posted 12-12-2001 08:32 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Russ,

Your comments about the similarity of the hullforms prompted me to make some further inquiries about this, with the result that the best recollection of those polled is that the actual hull was not changed at all (or very little). It was the interior or liner mold that got a revision in the late 1980's.

Accordingly I have revised those parts of the article which formerly led readers astray.

Perhaps I have been a bit judgemental in my assessment of the bow rail layout. I have not tried the V-22 foredeck myself, so I will have to rely on your first hand knowledge. I invite you elaborate on the railing and its handiness in various situations.

The same goes for getting to and from the foredeck without the convenience of the walk-through.

The pictures I used were the first I had available of a V-22 Revenge, and if there are others out there who would like to have their V-22 Revenge included I would welcome their submission; I can add them to the article.

As I mentioned once to a correspondent who was upset about an error I had made, I don't undertake the preparation of this stuff with the gravity of testifying in a capital crime nor the research of a Ph.D. candidate. If something is in error it can always be corrected. As it says at the bottom of the page, we do our best!

Tom W Clark posted 12-13-2001 12:51 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Larry,

Those Johnsons are dark metallic grey, not black. But they do rather spoil the appearance of an otherwise beautiful boat don't ya think? Russ's new boat has a nice white outboard...

lhg posted 12-13-2001 11:09 AM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Yes, Tom, I've always thought of OMCs as white. I've noticed now that Bombardier is painting their premium line, Evinrude, as dark a blue as possible. I can't understand why they want them to look like Mercs from a distance, or in photos, but they sure do! They should stick with the original OMC white.

Same for Suzuki with their metallic ultra-dark grey. It is so close to pure black I can't believe it.

You'd think both of these companies would want to distinguish themselves from Mercury, rather than copy them!

I've also never understood why all the engine companies have now copied Mercury's 60 degree vee block, introduced in 1976, rather than sticking with their own 90 degree vee designs! Guess it had something do do with the expiration of Mercury's patent.

Peter posted 12-13-2001 01:11 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
I believe that Yami's are 76 and 90 degrees.
lhg posted 12-13-2001 01:47 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Peter - The new Yamaha 4 stroke 225 is a 60 degree v-6. Don't know about the big Honda. I know Merc's 250HP 4 stroke will be 60 degrees.
Peter posted 12-13-2001 02:20 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Lhg - Well you got me because I was thinking that your absolute statement was limited to 2 strokes since that's what Merc has made to date and was likely the subject matter of any patent. But now that 4 stroke is in the equation, the question is since Yamaha came out with a 60 degree V6 4 stroke first, would it be safe to say Mercury is copying Yamaha if it comes out with a 60 degree v6 250?
lhg posted 12-13-2001 02:41 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Jim - Your question on the origin of the "Revenge" name is interesting, but it came along only 2 years after the "Outrage" name, so I figure it must be related. Remember that the "Outrage" name came from the 1971 21' rib sided model, and the Revenge name came out in the 1973 21' model, when the ribs were removed.

So possibly it came from removing the ribs, which were considered a molding and hull cleaning nightmare? Taking "Revenge" on the ill-fated "Outrage" ribs (which I happen to think were really distinctive and attractive).

It also could be that a person who is "Outraged" may be seeking "Revenge"? Who knows. One other thought is that this first auotmotive windshield styled model Whaler, could be "Revenge" against those (including other boat companies) who thought only of Whalers as center console boats. Kind of "we'll show these hardnosed guys that we can make a rugged boat (as opposed to the wimpy sit down boats of the others) that appeals to the wife also, and steal their market"?

The Defiance name, which I'm not particularly excited about, actually came from the CPD, 30' & 36' aluminum hulled patrol boat models.
Doesn't seem particularly suited to a boat billed as a sportfisherman.

The "Dauntless" name doesn't move me in either direction. I can take it or leave it.
It wouldn't be considered "Dauntless" in heavy offshore seas, however.

The ones I really don't like are "Ventura" and "Conquest". Ventura brings up images of some dim witted California hippie/surfer types of the 60's,(I keep thinking of the song "Ventura Highway") a notion & place so far from Boston Whaler's original heritage. These bow rider boats should be moved over to the SeaRay line and be done with it. "Conquest" brings to mind the Holy Wars of the Great Crusades and the gold plundering of the Spanish Main! Hardly appropriate to a model designed to appeal to women desiring the creature comforts of a "cruiser" sleep aboard type boat. With the Taliban in the news, the word Conquest surely
can't be an appealing boat name to women, who Whaler is now claiming to be designing for!
Maybe they figured that if you put a macho masculine name on it, the men could justify owning the boat in spite of the wife's demands!

You've got to wonder what Madison Avenue types dreamed these names up.

triblet posted 12-13-2001 06:44 PM ET (US)     Profile for triblet  Send Email to triblet     
>I've also never understood why all the engine companies
>have now copied Mercury's 60 degree vee block, introduced
>in 1976, rather than sticking with their own 90 degree vee
>designs! Guess it had something do do with the expiration
>of Mercury's patent.

If there was a patent on the 60 degree V6,
it has long since expired. It has to do with
balance.

Some engine designs are naturally dynamically
balanced. Here's a partial list:

Inline 6
60 degree V6
90 degree V8
any V12 (which is two balanced inline 6s,
hence still balanced)

Some are naturally unbalanced. Again a
partial list:

1 cyl.
inline 4s
90 degree V6s.
flat 4s (I think)
flat 6s (I think)

Inline 4s get used in the auto world because
they are cheap to build (fewer parts) and
cheapskates will put up with the vibration.

90 degree V6s were popular for a while in the
auto world because they could be built on the
same lines that had built the (suddenly
unpopular gas guzzling) 90 degree V8s.

I can't imagine why anybody would build a
90 degree V6 unless they had an idle 90
degree line. (Actually, the intake manifold
routing is easier on an 90degree V6 because
there's more room between the cylinders.
But that's a nit.)


Chuck

lhg posted 12-13-2001 07:08 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
When the V-6 outboards first came out, OMC beat Mercury to the market by about 6 months with theirs. They chose the 90 degree block, probably because that is what they had used for the previous V-4's. It wasn't long before the Mercury design proved itself superior in performance, but OMC insisted for years their 90 degree design was better. Maybe they had no choice because of the patent (assuming there was one).

When Yamaha entered the market in the mid eighties , they, too, chose the 90 degree design, basically copying OMC's idea, while copying Mercury's lower unit design. Later, they closed the V down to 76 degrees, and still don't make a 60 degree 2 stroke.

OMC quietly adopted the 60 degree design in the early 90's, and at least in the 150HP model, the 60 degree engine was a huge improvement over the old 90 degree design. A very fast engine, like the Merc 150. It appears the 60 degree v-4's have been good
performers also.

I never realized dynamic balance was the issue for better performance.

Peter posted 12-14-2001 08:00 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
LHG,

Realizing this continues to be a little off topic here but interesting, I don't believe that the Merc's patents were on the pure concept of a 60 degree V6 block because that would have been an obvious angle to choose for a V6 due to the inherent balance as Chuck points out. It would also have been unpatentable, in my opinion. However, because the space between the cylinder banks is narrower in a 60 degree construction rather than a 90, and because the V6 outboards reverse the exhaust routing (inboard between the cylinders instead of on the outboard side like in an automobile) there were probably exhaust packaging and cooling problems that had to be overcome. My guess is that the patents were directed to solutions to such problems.

andygere posted 12-14-2001 02:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
Larry, easy on the dim-witted surfer references. By the way, the Ventura name is actually more along the original Whaler tradition of naming models after local seaside places where they might be used. Perhaps it was a ploy to appeal to the West Coast ski-boat market. For what it's worth, in many ways, boating off the California coast in a small outboard powered boat is more demanding than in the east because of the distance between safe harbors. If you go offshore, or up or down the coast, there usually aren't many options if the weather turns bad. Perhaps Whaler should consider some other West Coast model names like Bolinas, Montara, Tomales and Davenport....
Taylor posted 12-14-2001 03:11 PM ET (US)     Profile for Taylor  Send Email to Taylor     
Davenport?! do you mean the one in Iowa, or the one in my living room.
lhg posted 12-14-2001 03:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Sorry, Andy, no offense meant! Aren't most of you West Coast guys too young to have been surfers in the early 60's of the Beach Boys anyway?!! The kind of person I was imagining wouldn't have owned a Whaler in the first place. And I have never been to Ventura.

Actually, you are right about Whalering anywhere on the Pacific coast. From what I've seen, it could easily be a lot more challenging than the East Coast.

As a person who spent 20 years in New England, beginning in 1959 when the 13' Whalers were a new curiousity, I guess I'm so used to the East coast place names on Whalers that anything west of the Mississippi sounds strange to me. Until about 15 years ago, I never even realized that Boston Whaler's reputation was widely recognized on the West Coast. I thought the only small boats bought and sold on the West Coast were those Washington State Bayliners! (not really).

andygere posted 12-14-2001 06:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
No offense taken, Larry. Interestingly enough, I learned to surf on Cape Cod, where I spent most of my summers growing up and through college. In fact, I used to stuff my surfboards into my old 13 to get to some of the out-of-the-way beachbreaks at places like Nauset inlet and the Chatham cut. Growing up in New England, I guess I always assumed the rest of the world that Nauset, Montauk and Katama were places on the Northeast Shoreline. It seems true that there aren't nearly as many Whalers on the West Coast as there are back east, probably due to shipping costs and less familiarity with the brand. I'd be willing to bet that most folks living within 25 miles of the New England coast have at least heard of Boston Whalers. They are not as well known in California, and I see a lot of high bow, aluminum center-console skiffs used for the type of fishing almost entirely reserved for Whalers in MA and CT. In the vein of the old BW naming tradition, my boat is called Namaquoit, after Namaquoit Point, a favorite Whalering spot in Orleans' Little Pleasant Bay.

Taylor, I was referring to Davenport, CA, an old Whaling town just up the coast from Santa Cruz.

jimh posted 12-15-2001 02:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I added a photo (with call-outs) showing the details of the Revenge Sliding Ladder.

Not everything is perfect in the newer companionway treatment. My sliding plexiglass hatch cover has a crack in it. It is tinted black and if left exposed in hot sun the plastic swells/warps so much that it refuses to slide closed. It binds in the aluminum track that it slides in. If that happens you have to throw a towel over it to get the sun off it and wait for it to cool. Or pour some lakewater on it to help cool it. The tendency to stick is probably related to the thing getting cracked in the first place.

Blackeagle posted 12-16-2001 04:52 PM ET (US)     Profile for Blackeagle  Send Email to Blackeagle     
Thanks for the pics, Jim! The sliding ladder really looks like an elegant solution to a difficult problem. As for, "Timeless Brown Plaid cushions," that's not exactly the world I would have used.
woody7 posted 12-16-2001 10:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for woody7  Send Email to woody7     
Maybe the name is some Moby Dick, captain Ahab spin?
Clark Roberts posted 12-17-2001 07:30 AM ET (US)     Profile for Clark Roberts  Send Email to Clark Roberts     
Re: Engine Balance> to get the first order harmonic balance angle for any piston engine you divide 360 degrees by no. of cyls! Examples: 2 cyl = 180 degrees (opposed twin); 3 cyl = 120 degrees (radial); 4 cyl = 90 degrees (V4 or radial); 6 cyl = 60 degrees (V6 or radial); 8 cyl = 45 degrees (radial or use two 90 degree V4's) etc.... crank counterbalancing and vib isolation are used in design practice to overcome! I wish my one cyl 5hp Merc had another cyl. Seems as though I remember a 4 cyl 5hp Evinrude years and years ago.. how smooth that must have been! And that V12 (was it a 60 degree-two V6's?) Lincoln Zepher... etc, etc.... Happy Whalin'... clark.. Spruce Creek Navy
PS> Been lots of years, hope I got the above half right... that's about my batting average these days
MCano posted 12-17-2001 09:17 PM ET (US)     Profile for MCano  Send Email to MCano     
Did someone mention WEST COAST? I'm a Southern California native of 50 years and a 13 year owner of a 1996 - 22 OC, which I keep in a slip in Channel Islands Harbor, CA (5 miles South of Ventura Harbor). I have not made enough trips to East Coast ports to be able to compare the frequency of Whaler sightings back there. However, I can say that there are a number of Montauk and smaller Whalers in my harbor. In fact, smaller whalers appear to be the boat of choice as tenders for the big sportfishers and cruisers. There are fewer 18 and up Outrages and Revenges. I would guess about 10 between Ventura Harbor and Channel Islands Harbor. This includes the three 22 Outrages used by the Channel Islands Harbor Patrol. There are a lot more Bayliner Trophy boats, probably due to their lesser cost and greater availability. However, I would agree that availability is a problem here in Souther California. I'm aware of only 2 dealers for sure that exist between Santa Barbara and San Diego (Blue Porpoise Marine in San Diego and Schock Boats in Newport Beach). When a pre-owned Whaler is advertised in the Southern California area, they tend to sell quickly, or least the ads do not get repeated in subsequent advertising issues.

Anyway, as a West Coast Whaler owner, I just wanted to convey that most serious boaters in my area know all about Whalers and what makes them special. And, I wouldn’t totally exclude us West Coasters from the Whaler tradition.

Happy Holidays
Mario

hardensheetmetal posted 12-17-2001 10:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for hardensheetmetal  Send Email to hardensheetmetal     
Excellent job Jim -

Having owned that 22 W/T for 5 years, I really think it was one of the most versitile and well thought out boats that Whaler has made.

As far as the lexan hatch goes, I had similar problems with mine, especially the day that a pebble got caught between the lexan and the fiberglass cover it slides under, and my wife forced it shut - OH what a noise and what a scratch! (I have since forgiven her)

My bigest dislike of the boat was the fact that Whaler continued the headliner out into the side pockets port and starboard of the helm seat. When I took posession of the boat, the first thing I did was to rip the headliner out of these pockets. But this was really inconsequential and the boat really worked out great for us for the next five years.

Dan

andygere posted 12-18-2001 04:22 PM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
Mario, it sounds like Whalers are fairly well known in your part of the state. In the Santa Cruz Yacht Harbor, there are 4 or 5 other Whalers besides mine. I do see a fair number of them trailered in, most frequently Montauks and Nausets. There are substantially more Bayliner/Trophys and Ospreys in the harbor, and a handfull of Grady's as well. I know of only one dealership in Northern California (Outboard Motor Shop in Alameda), and at least a few members of this forum have purchased their boats there.

In terms of an East Coast/West Coast Whaler Density Index (WDI), I'd say the east (well, New England anyway) is higher by a factor of at least 5. I would estimate that in many harbors in MA, RI and CT, Whalers are easily the most common boat found. It would be interesting for members of this forum to provide a local WDI at harbors around the country to see how the different regions compare. WDI=(# of Whalers)/(# f slips <26 feet)

hauptjm posted 12-18-2001 05:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for hauptjm    
Interesting idea of the "regionality" of their popularity. Here in the deep south (my little piece of it), it seems we have a fairly equal number of Boston Whalers, Makos, Robolos and Gradys. Of course, the large majority of boats fall into the aluminum, custom, no-name flats or one offs from the 70's. I'm sure every location has their share of those. Lately, the Cape Horns have seemed to catch on with the budget crowd.

I do remember the original Whaler dealer in New Orleans that opened in the early 60's. They closed down in the early 80's when the owners son was killed while out showing a boat on the water.

MCano posted 12-18-2001 06:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for MCano  Send Email to MCano     

Andygere,

I wonder how difficult it would be for me to get a hold of the number of smaller slips in my Harbor, short of calling the six marinas involved. However, both Channel Islands Harbor and Ventura Harbor have quite a few private slips in front of harbor-front homes.

Just a thought.

jimh posted 12-19-2001 09:16 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Update: December 19, 2001:

I found a couple of nice shots from Tom Clift and added them to the collection, showing his pristine 1978 21-Revenge Boston Whaler. The railing on this boat is quite different than the other.

lhg posted 12-19-2001 03:02 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
That 21 Revenge is a real beauty, and looks completely factory original, including the graphics, except for the high side rails.

It's really nice to see an old Whaler in that kind of condition.

moxie posted 06-11-2003 10:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for moxie  Send Email to moxie     
great insight on the revenge.i would like to purchase a 22 revenge in the near future as my double eagle 185 is getting a little small for our family.does anybody have pitures to show the different transom,motor well layouts of outboard powered revenge(not intrested in whaler drives)is one of these motor wells deeper/wider/higher.my whaler will be set up for power mooching,kicker motor, on port side and would like to mount a pedestal and seat,on or in front of the motor well.do all the 22 revenge models, years from 1980 to 92 have a 7' 5" beam.also were can i find specifications for all the 22 revenge modles from 80 to 92???
thanks
JMARTIN posted 03-23-2004 03:03 PM ET (US)     Profile for JMARTIN  Send Email to JMARTIN     
Great page and information. The picture of the walk thru cabin (ref 46-11) looks alot like my 1983 Revenge 22. I have the varnished wood hatches and the large shelf, but not the small shelf and I have a door to the "worthless as an anchor locker" cabinet. I also have the filler panel-Porta Potty cover that the article says "can be inverted to form a table". My filler panel is L shaped with the bow end hooking onto the front panel for support. Was the design changed on the walk thrus? I can not see how this would become a table unless that simply means you remove the cushion. Any walk thru table users out there who know?
JMARTIN posted 03-29-2004 12:36 PM ET (US)     Profile for JMARTIN  Send Email to JMARTIN     
I answered my own question. To make a table out of the center filler piece, remove the cushion, lift up on the filler piece, turn end for end, and it will fit down into some notches cut into the side lids. Not a bad little table.
jimh posted 03-29-2004 09:58 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
That table is a rather crafty little design, eh?
RevengeFamily posted 05-25-2009 09:23 AM ET (US)     Profile for RevengeFamily  Send Email to RevengeFamily     
Wow.... This thread was so far off topic with the discussion of engine colors and "V" block angles... Does anyone have a photograph of the nylon bushings for the companionway ladder? And also the nylon slides for the bottom of the ladder?

I was unaware that these even existed. I am accustom to the ladder squeaking as I slide it in and out of the companionway.

jimh posted 05-29-2009 10:56 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
The information on the engine block angles is interesting. The references to a patent of the use of a 60-degree angle has never turned up anything substantive, even after eight years of searching.

As for the sliding ladder, you can see in the illustration how the ladder hangs from the steel tube. The material looks like some sort of composite, perhaps cut from melamine sheet. I do not recall anything on the bottom of the ladder as a friction reducer. The ladder hangs just off the deck. When you slide the ladder it is not touching the deck, as I recall. When you climb up on the ladder the added weight brings it in contact with the deck.

RevengeFamily posted 05-31-2009 06:23 AM ET (US)     Profile for RevengeFamily  Send Email to RevengeFamily     
Jim,

Thanks for your responce, I'll look again and see what I can fabricate.

Norm

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