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  Page 70: What Lies Beneath; February 9, 2003

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Author Topic:   Page 70: What Lies Beneath; February 9, 2003
jimh posted 02-09-2003 10:13 AM ET (US)   Profile for jimh   Send Email to jimh  
Please use this message thread to make comments or ask questions concerning the photographs presented in Cetacea Page 70.

This Cetacea article shows details of the hull construction of a Revenge V-22, particularly the process of removing and replacing the fuel tank.

I offer my thanks to David Junker for the interesting photographs. Recording the process of renovation can often add to the task, and many times the camera is set aside.

11 footer posted 02-09-2003 10:32 AM ET (US)     Profile for 11 footer  Send Email to 11 footer     
Another great page for the record books!
Dave, Nice jod with the picts they really help in showing the whole process.

11

jimh posted 02-09-2003 10:54 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
It just occurred to me that the reason the fuel tank cavity has such (apparently) poor drainage may have to do with a goal of containing fuel in the event of a catastrophic breach of the fuel tank.
tabasco posted 02-09-2003 11:02 AM ET (US)     Profile for tabasco  Send Email to tabasco     
WOW! what a job. Also great photos. It's more than I would have ever taken on. I am sure that you saved a lot of $$$$ buy doing this job yourself. What was you cost on parts? did you get an estimate on what it would have cost professionally?

Loved the photo with the screw driver in the picture....put everything into size perspective.

A very interesting Cetacea page Jimh. Keep up the great work.

Ray

Arch Autenreith posted 02-09-2003 05:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for Arch Autenreith  Send Email to Arch Autenreith     
Very nice job, Dave. Extremely thorough in detail and account.

It may be my age but the picture of your Revenge makes me start to want one.

Regards.

Arch

elaelap posted 02-10-2003 12:16 AM ET (US)     Profile for elaelap  Send Email to elaelap     
Wow, David. I've been fooling around with my old Katama since I bought it last October, and have been pretty pleased with some of my work. Your job puts my stuff into perspective, my friend. Congratulations to a fine craftsman on a beautiful craft.

Tony

andygere posted 02-10-2003 01:40 AM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
Great Cetacea addition and a great looking boat David! The photos really help me make sense of the drawings I have of the inner workings of the 22 hull. I was just looking at them yesterday while contemplating a fuel line change-out.

By the way, how did you discover your fuel tank was leaking? Did gasoline leak into the rear sumps?

Final question: What brand/color caulk did you use to seal up the floor panels?

Clark Roberts posted 02-10-2003 08:16 AM ET (US)     Profile for Clark Roberts  Send Email to Clark Roberts     
Great job, Dave! A friend of mine, David Day, refurbed a 22Revenge WT/WD and installed a side mount (std Merc box) control and, Wow, what a great improvement over the factory benacle which was a pain to reach when seated!
John W posted 02-10-2003 11:35 AM ET (US)     Profile for John W  Send Email to John W     
Great job, your boat looks great. What is the new tank made of? The commentary mentions that the old tank was plastic, and it looks like the new one is as well. One comment on tank installation: Foaming in a fuel tank works great if it's a plastic tank, but doing so with an aluminum tank is not reccommended...it's a leading cause of fuel tank failure due to aluminum corrosion. It generally takes 10 to 20 years for a foamed-in aluminum tank to corrode through, but the same aluminum tank will last forever if properly installed without the use of foam. There are threads in the "repair" section of the forum on aluminum fuel tank installation. I mention this for the benefit of anyone looking at your pic's as an example for their own tank replacement.

Great job on a great looking boat!

lhg posted 02-10-2003 12:17 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Is Whaler's CGP still foaming in aluminum tanks on the new Guardians? Are you saying this is defective detail?
John W posted 02-10-2003 01:53 PM ET (US)     Profile for John W  Send Email to John W     
lhg,

I don't know if CGP is still foaming in tanks or not, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were. Mako and Cobia are two boat brands that still are doing this. And yes, this is definitely not a good way to do it, regardless. I & others discussed this on a recent forum thread, hopefully I'll get this link right: continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/003271.html

Included is a link to an article by David Pascoe on his marine survey site on the subject: www.yachtsurvey.com/fueltank.htm

I've personally seen corrosion problems caused by foaming in aluminum tanks several times...most recently when my father pulled an aluminum tank out of an old boat he is restoring. The tank was foamed in on the sides but had airspace on the bottom; the bottom of the tank was fine but it had corroded through on the tank sides where the foam trapped water against the side of the tank.

I don't agree with everything on Pascoe's site but this is one article he's right on target with in my opinion.

Again, it appears that Davis Junker used a plastic tank. If I'm wrong & it's aluminum, then he may have to replace the tank again in 15 years or so.

whaler22 posted 02-10-2003 04:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for whaler22  Send Email to whaler22     
WOW!! Thanks for all the complements guys. I truly feel honored Jim asked me for some pics of my project. I've been visiting this site 1 year prior to my purchase and watched in awe as some of you undertook similar projects. Many of you helped me do this. Without your help I wouldn't have even tried. I hope someone can benefit from these pics. The project wasn't that difficult or expensive, just time consuming. A LABOR OF LOVE!!! The project is far from professional looking. However,I do feel everything is much more sound and reliable. (I've caught a lot of crabs off the Oregon coast to show for it!! If I can just get someone to teach me how to fish, I'd be complete!! ;)
Anyway, I'll try to answer some of the question presented so far.

Andygere...Why???
I knew the boat was not well maintained when I purchased it. I could always smell fuel. When I removed my inspection hatch and saw my filler plate/sending unit, it looked pretty scarey. I didn't feel safe bringing my family onboard with all the unknowns and the smell of gas. I was only supposed to remove and repace the old fuel lines...but then "While I've gone this far I might as well change......." syndrome happend. Most of you understand that. As far as the caulk for the floors, I called Twin Cities Marine....(what a big help!! Thanks Sue!) and they sent me Starbrite marine silicone in desert tan color. Great match!!
Clark--
I agree, the side mount is much nicer. It's much easier to use while seated and standing. Now I have room for a GPS or fish finder right on the dash.

As far as the tank, I reused my old tank. After inspection and leak checking it, I decided to reuse it. Tempo no longer makes the v-bottom poly tanks in this size anymore. I could have had one custom made I guess but...its plastic. It'll never corrode. I don't think I'd want an aluminum tank. As wet as that area stays, corosion in some capacity is ineveitable. Also, as much vibration, banging on the waves, heat& cold contracting and expanding, a weld is bound to let loose. The poly tanks flex. (Person opinion)
I sure could have used some pics like this before I got started. But then again I may not have tried it. This is a great site JIM, and thanks again for everyone's help completeing it.

lhg posted 02-10-2003 04:52 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
I had no idea Whaler used plastic under deck tanks in the Outrage/Revenge. As some later date, they switched to aluminum, which I consider was an upgrade? Wonder why?

Both of my Outrages, '86 & '89, have aluminum tanks, foamed in place. I was always under the impression that phase separation of alcohhol, and subsequent water/alcohol combination on the tank bottom, was the great corroder of aluminum tanks, from the inside out, not pure water on the tank exterior.

Russ posted 02-11-2003 01:25 AM ET (US)     Profile for Russ  Send Email to Russ     
Very impressive Dave. I've been busy lately refinishing the teak on my '81 Revenge, but your efforts make mine look puny by comparison. I like the results you've achieved. It was gratifying to see a good example, as yours is, of a V-22 Revenge appear in Cetacea. (Mine is shown on p.64, but it's not given as an example.) I have a couple of "howdja", and "howyagonna" questions about what you've done, or are going to do, but I don't think this is the place to ask them. So if it's O.K. with you I'd like to email them to you.

Russ

Kingsteven18 posted 02-11-2003 05:53 AM ET (US)     Profile for Kingsteven18  Send Email to Kingsteven18     
You're a better man than I. When I once had to do the same job (fuel tank fittings were rotten), I just cut the hatch as far forward as possible instead of taking the bulkheads and cabin apart.
hauptjm posted 02-11-2003 11:13 AM ET (US)     Profile for hauptjm    
I too was unaware that trapped water would corrode from the outside. I would think in the presence of electrolysis you would see degradation, but not just water contact. In fact, my 18 has a foamed in aluminum tank that is now almost 18 years old. So far so good. No fumes, no signs of corrosion, just a stuck sending unit on the fixed mount fuel gauge. My next project.
caddis posted 02-11-2003 08:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for caddis  Send Email to caddis     
Great job!

I also had a ton of water around my tank. They need some better drainage!

I really like the finished console. Having been behind mine, I know what a cluster of wires it is (right, Larry?). That is the last major piece of the puzzle with my Revenge. I also like the side mount, but that is not possible with the twin configuration I have coming. That was a weak design in the location of the controls.

I'm debating having them redo all the wiring when the engines are mounted, since they will be in the console anyway. I noticed you upgraded the switches. Very clean.

Did you put on new decals, or are those the originals? I'd love to put new ones on mine. The only ones I can get are the Boston Whaler decals on the stern sides. The striping and "Revenge V-22" would have to be made.

lhg posted 02-12-2003 01:36 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Todd - Glad to see you've re-appeared here. We'll miss seeing you around the Door County area.

Regarding Whaler's non-draing fuel tank cavity on the Outrage/Revenge models, the owners manual says:

"fuel leakage, should it ever occur, will be contained in the fiberglass cavity."

"It is normal for some water to accumulate in the tunnel and fuel tank area."

It seems that this non-draining fuel tank cavity, on all V-series boats, must have been an intentional design, as it certainly would have been possible to design a draining tank area, and mount a fuel tank with other than foam. We have all been assuming this is just a poor detail, but that is probably not correct. Somewhere, there must be a design explanation for this detail. After all, aren't the current Guardians still being made the same way. It certainly would have been changed if necessary.

I guess we just have get used to the fact that area holds water. When stored, I now leave my cover plates off, so the area can dry out by evaporation.

whaler22 posted 02-12-2003 09:40 PM ET (US)     Profile for whaler22  Send Email to whaler22     
I had to remake my filler/sending unit/vent plate because it was so pitted and cracked. Could this have been caused by electrolosis? My bonding wires were broken and weak at best. Also, I noted that some outrages have a built in gauge instead of an electrical gauge. Was this for easy of maintenance?
Hey Caddis, I agree with the dual control set up. I wish I had this problem. I'd love to ut dual engines on board. I did plan ahead though. I covered the hole for the old control with a panel that I can use for my gps/fishfinder now, but if need be I can put the dual control back in its original location. Please let me know if you find the "Revenge V-22" or striping on the cabin. Mine needs to be redone badly.
LHG-I think you and Jim are correct about the fuel containment. It makes a lot of sense. By the time that compartment fills with fuel, you'll know the tank has a problem. I have noticed that sense I put everything back together and resealed the deck, I hardly get any water in this area, even after a washdown. After a washdown, I check it and siphon out what little water I do get in here. Then leave my covers off to air out. You mentioned this awhile back. Great idea! It really helps keep this area drier.
Sorry about the confusion on corrosion and aluminum tanks. I know aluminum normally wouldn't corrode. But after seeing my filler plate I was unsure why this wouldn't happen if I had an aluminum tank.
David
jimh posted 02-12-2003 11:22 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
In regard to the use of side-mounted controls on the Revenge console and twin engines, that is how my boat was set up. There are dual side-mount controls held against the bulkhead by 2 or 3 large mounting bolts. The throttle handle has been inverted on one of the controls, and the throttle handles align just right.

I have a picture somewhere that I will scan and post (someday...).

csj posted 03-13-2003 09:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for csj  Send Email to csj     
Dave nice job on your boat. I to pulled up the floors on my 1989 22' revenge last year just to check for any problems. luckly there were none other then grime in the troughs. Reference your question about the drainage of the port trough, mine has a hole at the stern facing starboard and there is a tube that runs thru the live well to the bilge area on the starboard side. Seems to work well ! Anyways thanks for the pictures, and again fantastic job
Mark Fickel posted 03-29-2003 03:52 AM ET (US)     Profile for Mark Fickel  Send Email to Mark Fickel     
Dave, Great work. What a project. I just discovered this web site and love it. I have a 1982 V-22 Revenge I keep at Cap Sante in Anacortes, WA. I have owned it for 7 seasons and love it. I refinished the teak once both inside and out but now it is time again. I was fascinated by your pictures and what's under the deck. I am toying with the idea of completely restoring my boat. It would need to be repainted (Cap Sante has a paint shop) but I would probably completely rewire everything as well as finish all the woodwork.

Do you have any more pictures of your progress? I would love to see more interior shots, especially showing your finished work.

What did you use for the headliner material and seat fabric in the cabin? I actually contacted Whaler once and they told me the name of the company that did their fabrics (I would have to dig that up) and they thought they might have some left over material they would sell.

Anyway, you have inspired me.
Mark

DJS posted 06-14-2003 01:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for DJS  Send Email to DJS     
Dave,

I have a 1987 Outrage22 and would appreciate your input on a problem that has been bothering me. This question is in regards to the large molded cover that covers the gas tank area.

I'm guessing here, buy it appears the previous owner, when replacing some of the screws that hold this cover in place, used a powered screwdriver and three of the screws were forced down below the top of the cover.
These screws were pulled down 1/4 to 3/8 inch lower than they should have been.

I am planning to repair these holes but I have questions regarding this. From looking at your photos in Cetacea, Page 70, particularly 70-07,10,11,12,12b,13 and 14, I have concluded that the shelf, which supports the cover, has wood inside of it for the screws to be screwed into.

When the screws mentioned before were driven in deeper than required, they also penetrated the wood in this shelf deeper. When I repair this cover I plan to use screws that are longer than the originals because the originals will then be too short. A question I have is how much wood is encapsulated in the shelf; is there enough that I could use a screw that is 1/2 inch longer, and not go through the encapsulated wood in the shelf?

Another question that I have is how would you place some sort of sealing compound around the screw holes into this shelf? I don't want to have a place where the water that gets into this area could cause rot to form in the wood encapsulated in the shelf.

When repairing the holes I was planning to use some epoxy to rebuild them and then gel coat the surface area where the head of the screw would come to. Do you feel that this could be done without the epoxy running into the joint between the shelf and the cover? In other words, I would not want to cause the cover and the shelf to bond together if the epoxy were to enter the joint between the two.

Any help you could offer will be very much appreciated.

David

Charleston Revenge posted 09-09-2003 01:11 PM ET (US)     Profile for Charleston Revenge  Send Email to Charleston Revenge     
David,
Thanks for the great pictures. I JUST bought an '82 Revenge and I think that I'll have to do exactly what you did. This will be my first project. Are there any gotchas that cought you by surprise?
Joe S.

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