posted 10-09-2008 09:26 PM ET (US)     

I already have twin batteries isolated by a perko switch for battery 1/2 or both in my Outrage 210 centre console.

I was wondering how to rig the new kicker power given that I don't want to run a complete loom back to the 2 batteries mounted in the centre console

I thought by adding a new perko switch aft and 2 new short leads one to main engine and one to kicker would simplify wiring and allow me to charge both batteries from either main or auxiliary

IE existing switch would choose battery 1 or 2 and new aft switch would select Main or Auxiliary

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/9958/wiringpg5.jpg

I assume I could not have both engines running/charging at the same time with this set up or is their a better solution avoiding adding a third battery for the auxiliary.

posted 10-10-2008 09:22 AM ET (US)            

The negative terminal of the third battery should be made common with the negative terminals of the other batteries. If the auxiliary motor does not have battery charging, then an automatic combiner relay could be installed to keep it charged from the main engine.

posted 10-10-2008 04:55 PM ET (US)         

Your right a fully independent auxiliary would be simpler and safer.

I just thought that as a Merc 9.9 Pro Kicker has a 6amp output and would be used for trolling it might as well be topping up the main batteries.

The bad news with my suggested wiring would be switching between main and aux engine each time where with an independent system both could be running, useful in an emergency situation.

I assume I have to connect the earth to the boat electrical system for grounding purposes, but the live would only run from the aux to the new small battery.

Any idea on size and weight of battery required as I would have to fit it in the stern seat locker and height is limited as there are two scuppers drains running through, fuel filter and wash down pump.

posted 10-11-2008 05:13 PM ET (US)         

Great, thought there may be a problem if both were charging or do you always switch one off ?

BTW I have a 2006 210 Outrage but with a ETC not a Merc, but should be similar

posted 10-11-2008 07:57 PM ET (US)            

I'm not sure what you are asking about switching one off because you could be referring to batteries or engines. Hopefully one of these answers is what you are looking for: I have run both motors at the same time (not for more than 5 minutes, but they were both charging the batteries at that time) and have not had a problem in over 250 hours of total run time. I usually charge one battery per trip, so whatever battery I started the engines with will be the battery that gets charged the entire trip. The next trip I switch over to the other battery. So I don't really know how charging both batteries concurrently would work, but I assume it would just take longer.

posted 10-12-2008 09:32 AM ET (US)            

This question comes up from time to time, and I generally do not endorse the practice, based on my own experience with outboard motors and their permanent magnet alternators. I bought a boat several years ago where twin 70-HP Yamaha motors charged a common battery. When I got the boat the seller acknowledged there was a problem with the tachometer on one engine. It turned out the problem was really an open stator coil winding in the battery charging circuit. I repaired that, and resumed operation. The other motor's stator coil winding promptly failed after a few hours. When I repaired that, I also changed the configuration so that each motor and its permanent magnet alternator charged their own battery. I can't say for certain that the common battery was the cause of these failures. I was in a situation where finding out could be expensive, as each repair cost about $300.

However, some experts say that two alternators can charge a common battery without harm. For example, see:

Yandina FAQ
Q: What happens if two alternators end up charging the same banks?
http://www.yandina.com/combInfo.htm#Q33

However, note the author acknowledges the caution expressed by outboard motor manufacturers. I think the recommendation might be more appropriate for the automotive style alternators, where the charging output can be reduced by adjustment of the field current. In a permanent magnet alternator, whenever the flywheel spins it produces a field and the coils pass through it.

If you are considering doing this with an E-TEC, I double my recommendation of caution. In the E-TEC the battery charging components are part of the EMM assembly, and that is a very expensive replacement part.

posted 10-12-2008 09:39 PM ET (US)         

Apologies for my previous hasty reply it was a bit late when I posted

I was concerned about both engines running at the same time to one battery. Our 210 manual already notes not to use the both position on the battery switch for extended periods (ie trying to. charge two batteries from the main engine).

I use the same method as you for charging my batteries by alternating between them on each time I use the boat. Although there s a part available for the ETEC to allow charging of 2 batteries.

I have no intention of operating both engines at the same time other than some theoretical emergency scenario where it is possible to forget to turn off the auxiliary in haste to start the main engine.

So in normal operation the ETEC would be off and simply acting as a junction box for the power supply to the auxiliary.

I think jimh advice is prudent to follow especially if you don’t have a combiner or the additional dual battery charge kit for the ETEC and like yourself you have only run both engines to one battery for a very short period and had no problems.

BTW do you have any pictures of your custom bracket?. I’m in the process of fabricating one myself. It’s a mirror image of our standard boarding platform.

See this thread http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/015601.html

posted 10-13-2008 05:32 PM ET (US)            

I don't have any pictures of the bracket, but it is a very simple design that creates a second "transom" for the kicker to mount over. It creates a setback that is about 7 inches behind the boat's transom. The way I set it up, I can't completely raise the kicker (before the straps on the Prokicker tighten), but the motor gets up far enough that it isn't in the water during transit or mooring. Since my motor doesn't have remote controls, it is placed very nicely for me to comfortably reach the primer, starter button and the controls on the handle. I don't think I could reach the motor if it were on the back of a swim platform without walking onto the platform...that would not be fun for me. You have a nice design, but for my application, the motor would be too far away for me to safely operate if I had it sitting on the back of bracket that large. Of course, remote controls would solve that problem for me.

I'll see about some pictures, but that will have to wait until the weekend.

posted 10-14-2008 03:32 PM ET (US)         

Better post pics in the other thread to keep jimh happy and this one on topic

posted 10-14-2008 06:57 PM ET (US)            

I do have trim tabs and don't have any clearance problems with the tab or with the main engine. My kicker sits slightly inboard of the port trim tab.

posted 10-18-2008 12:15 PM ET (US)            

I have some photos of my bracket, but don't have a way to upload them. Send an email to my email address and I'll respond with the photos.

posted 10-19-2008 01:32 PM ET (US)         

Many thanks in advance, mail sent

Will post pics in thread for you if thats ok

posted 10-20-2008 12:00 PM ET (US)            

The start battery is only wired to the main engine. It is separated from the house battery via a voltage sensing relay (VSR), which is integrated into a switch cluster made by the BEP company. The kicker is wired into the house battery, and charges that system with it's tiny alternator. The house battery gets charged by the main engine when the VSR senses 12.6 volts and the relay activates and connects the house battery to the charging system. This is a simple way to operate, and it requires no input from the user regardless of what is running. I simply put the switch for the house and start batteries to the "on" position at the start of the day, and everything is automatic from there.

Here's a diagram of the wiring, which is really quite simple, and a photo of the unit.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/andygere/Whaler%20details/ BEPwiring.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/andygere/Whaler%20details/ IMG_0697.jpg

Short of installing this type of switch (which I strongly recommend), I'd run a set of cables from the kicker to the house battery. That's the simplest way to go, and it allows the trolling motor to provide charge to support your electronics while trolling. It also provides a degree of reliability by having each engine on it's own battery. I would not splice the short cables attached to the kicker to extension, but instead make up new cable ends and run a single continuous pair from the battery to the terminals on the outboard. I have had two problems with spliced battery cables (by previous owners) and would definitely not go that route.

posted 10-20-2008 05:02 PM ET (US)         

This looks a very nice configuration. I don't have the dual charging kit on my ETEC I just alternate the switch settings, you set up would eliminate this.

I thought adding a kicker was going to be easy. But now after a custom bracket, new wiring, fuel cut off switches and remote still to tackle it's a bigger job.

I hope I can source those switches here else courier charges will add another +60USD.

Regards
Steve

posted 10-21-2008 03:53 PM ET (US)         

There is 2 boat shows coming up here in Dubai and Abu Dhabi next month I'll try and source them locally if possible

What gauge wire did you use for the kicker power to run 15 feet or so to the centre of the boat?

posted 10-24-2008 05:46 PM ET (US)            

I'm in the middle of rewiring mine, so it's changing, but currently, the kicker's battery leads are run directly to the contact points on the main engine, just as dschedgick described on his boat.

I am changing this system to one where both engines lead back to a couple posts forward of the splash dam, but the net effect is the same, they are both connected directly to one another.

I don't see a problem with charging because I don't generally plan to run both engines at once for any length of time. And even if I did, one would assume that whichever one's alternator put out a higher voltage would cause the regulator in the other one to trip and shut off the alternator, thus leaving the first to charge the battery. In my case, the kicker puts out a higher voltage than the main engine due to it's newer age and generally better condition.

posted 10-24-2008 07:18 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

But most of all, if, for some reason, you run your battery(s) dead, it's a lot easier to manually start your kicker than your main engine. Once you have it started, you can let it charge the batteries enough to get the main engine started. If it's isolated, you cannot do this.

---

posted 10-25-2008 02:25 PM ET (US)         

Although I very much liked the idea of wiring as dschedgick described and as you intend to use.

As it simplifies wiring and eliminates a third battery scenario (I already have a dual system) etc etc.

I agree with you thoughts especially if you never intend to run both engines other than at idle for very short periods.

But there is one sticking point in a far as no dealer seems to endorse or confirm if it will not invalidate your engine warranty if not using a full dual wiring kit.

In the absence of this andygere wiring being an elegant solution, automated charging of both batteries using a VSR and safe, seems preferable.

This eliminates any question on warranty issues and any potential insurance issues on cable sizing or wiring.