|
ContinuousWave Whaler Moderated Discussion Areas ContinuousWave: Small Boat Electrical Dual Battery Installation
|
Author | Topic: Dual Battery Installation |
irishcreamer |
posted 12-01-2009 10:21 PM ET (US)
Hello Everyone. I am moving forward with my rewiring project and seek your collective wisdom. Below I will lay out some project goals, parameters, and a link to my proposed wiring diagram. Rewiring of the boat is a daunting task but I think I am on the right track. I very much appreciate any insights and suggestions you might share. CURRENT CONFIGURATION THE PROJECT INITIAL LOADS POTENTIAL ADD-ON LOADS WIRING DIAGRAM v1.0 WIRING COMPONENTS Some questions that immediately come to mind:
|
jimh |
posted 12-01-2009 11:26 PM ET (US)
The wire gauge size will be based on the length of the run and the maximum current. Since the system voltage is below 50-volts, the wire size will be determined by the voltage drop that can be tolerated. ANCOR's website has a wire size calculator. It is in their technical data section. Here is a good discussion from the archives: Battery Cable The battery charger is not a load on the battery. Most battery chargers include wiring harnesses to connect to the battery terminals. A primer on small boat power distribution is given in http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/boatWiring.html . This will show you where to put circuit breakers for secondary power distribution and for individual loads. Battery choices have been discussed in many prior discussions, probably dozens of them, so including a discussion of battery choices here, among all the other topics, may best be held in abeyance. I recommend you follow the advice of the engine manufacturer. Generally in the installation manual for an engine there is quite specific instruction regarding what sort of battery is recommended for a particular engine. I would be bound by those recommendations. |
newt |
posted 12-02-2009 11:01 AM ET (US)
Regarding your question [on circuit breakers in the main power circuit]: My Revenge is wired so that the primary house feed from the batteries to the panels behind the dash does not go through either of the main battery switches. In other words, if the battery selector switch is off, I still have house power. The primary feed runs through its own 50-ampere switchable breaker located close to battery #2. The 50-ampere breaker has been a source of trouble. In the two seasons of ownership, I have replaced it once, and now need to replace it again. The only time I need house power without power to the engines is in the driveway if I put the radio on or play with the electronics, so I may opt to wire the primary house feed to one of my battery switches with an inline fuse for circuit protection. The advantage to this is that I could then select which of the two batteries will power the house circuit. |
jimh |
posted 12-03-2009 08:51 AM ET (US)
Regarding circuit breakers which are also used as ON-OFF control switches for the branch circuit they are feeding: some circuit breakers are designed to be routinely operated and can be used for ON-OFF control or as switches, but others are not. Circuit breakers designed for routine use as ON-OFF switches usually are noted as having a rating for switch duty, and their actuator will generally be a handle or toggle to permit easier operation. Circuit breakers not intended for use as ON-OFF switches will generally have a control actuator that is a pop-out button, and such controls are somewhat awkward to operate as ON-OFF switches. The manufacturer BLUE SEAS has a good website with technical information. I recommend you read their information under the topic heading DC Main Overcurrent Protection Requirements and to facilitate this for you, I provide this hyperlink: |
Feejer |
posted 12-03-2009 03:51 PM ET (US)
Check out the BEP products |
number9 |
posted 12-03-2009 06:44 PM ET (US)
Jim, For our information what type and brand of switchable breaker are you referring to? "The 50-ampere breaker has been a source of trouble." Thanks. Bill |
jimh |
posted 12-03-2009 10:40 PM ET (US)
I do not understand the question. I am not referring to any particular 50-ampere breaker as being troublesome for me. Perhaps you are asking Newt. |
irishcreamer |
posted 12-04-2009 12:26 AM ET (US)
I think number9 means to ask the question of newt. Updating the diagram and components and will add more in the next few days. In other news, prop testing on Sunday! |
number9 |
posted 12-04-2009 08:52 AM ET (US)
Newt, For our information what type and brand of switchable breaker are you referring to? "The 50-ampere breaker has been a source of trouble." Thanks. Bill Originally addressed to wrong member. Do not want to recommend problematic electrical parts. |
andygere |
posted 12-04-2009 11:14 AM ET (US)
I used a BEP marine switch cluster with integral VSR, and details of my install are here in the archives. The only thing running off the start battery is the main engine. Everything else, including the kicker and the kicker charging system, are wired to the house battery. No hiccups in the 3 years or so I've used the system. Also, while I considered adding an on-board AC charging system, I never bothered. The Optima AGM batteries hold their charge really well and I've never really needed to add charge to them from a source other than the outboard. This includes long periods of non-operation. Food for thought, you may want to hold off on that addition and see if it's really necessary. |
andygere |
posted 12-04-2009 11:31 AM ET (US)
One more thought: Why go through the trouble and expense of putting the batteries in the console? The Outrage 18 can certainly handle the weight in the stern without a problem, and if you go with AGMs, the required amperage can be supplied from a unit with a group 24 footprint, so they don't take up much room. Avoiding the cost of the longer lengths of heavy battery cable will go a long way towards offsetting the more expensive batteries. Also, dry storage space is at a huge premium in these classic Whalers, and you may regret giving much of it away to your batteries, which are perfectly happy sitting in the splashwell as Bob intended. As far as a circuit breaker goes, install one on the positive cable going from the house system to the fuse panel as close to the battery switch as possible. I purchased a standard panel mount marine circuit breaker, and made a small teak panel for it that hangs from the starboard gunwale board such that the switch is inverted under the gunwale where it can be easily reached, but is protected from knocks, bumps and spray. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/andygere/Whaler%20details/ BEPwiring.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/andygere/Whaler%20details/ IMG_0697.jpg |
irishcreamer |
posted 12-05-2009 01:33 AM ET (US)
Thanks for the input and links. I will continue to update this post as I proceed with this project. Feedback welcome particularly if you can stop me from doing something colossally stupid. I understand that BEP clusters will perform the same function as the Blue Sea Systems ACR and Isolator switch. I am using Blue Sea components because my local marine electronics installer uses them exclusively and will likely assist in the final installation. Hi Andy. I am sure the transom can take the extra weight but I would feel better with a more balanced boat. The Opti (433 lb), oil reservoir (20 lb), two batteries (100 lb), and eventual kicker (100lb) will around 650 lb on the back and that seem excessive to me. Interesting that you opted out of the On-board charger. I figure if I am going through all this trouble to update the electrical system I should just include it now rather than trying to add later. Also, if the on-board charger can also function as a battery maintainer that would pretty cool. Moving forward, please follow link for updated diagram: 1) Batteries Reading my A,B,C concerns it is apparent to me that the ideal solution is to have two identical batteries that magically act as Deep Cycle and Starting batteries. As it turns out AGM batteries will alleviate the concerns but they are pricey and a likely future upgrade. 2) Wire Gauge 3) Circuit Breakers 4) On-Board Charger |
number9 |
posted 12-05-2009 07:01 AM ET (US)
IrishCream, I didn't realize the newer 185 series CBs were available and was going to recommend the older, similar 185. Switchable CB is definitely a good choice. |
jimh |
posted 12-05-2009 05:02 PM ET (US)
The interconnection of two batteries, an ACR switch, and dual battery chargers makes for a complicated problem. I don't have a good answer for you. If we ignore the ACR for a moment, the situation is very simple. There are two batteries, they're isolated electrically, and they each are connected to an isolated charger output. The problem starts when the ACR is added. The ACR will tend to close when it senses the voltage on the primary battery is above threshold, indicating excess charging current is available. This could lead to problems. What comes to mind: --when the ACR closes, the charger outputs are connected in parallel. This means the charger MUST be able to tolerate this configuration. Check carefully that the charger permits this. Otherwise the charger might be damaged by connecting its two outputs in parallel. --if one battery is in a much lower state of charge than the other, the charger may not be able to maintain the terminal voltage of the paralleled batteries above the threshold of the combiner. This could lead to the ACR chattering on and off. A better arrangement might be to configure the ACR in some way that it was disabled when the battery charger was operating. One way to do this might be to use a 120-VAC relay wired in parallel with the charger power. If the charger is powered ON, the relay closes. The relay contacts signal the ACR to not combine. (This assumes that option is available on the ACR. Some models have that feature.) |
newt |
posted 12-07-2009 07:42 AM ET (US)
Number 9 - The switchable breaker I refer to is an Ancor 551650 that looks like this one. http://www.marinco.com/productline/ circuit-breakers-switches-and-accessories In fairness to Ancor, I am using the breaker in a somewhat wet location and they do not claim the breaker is waterproof, although they claim weather resistant. I simply replaced in kind what was there previously. Neither Bluesea or Ancor have a fully waterproof circuit breaker with the same form factor that I need. |
number9 |
posted 12-07-2009 01:32 PM ET (US)
newt, Appreciate the info on the CBs, those are good breakers, just not in a wet environment. |
andygere |
posted 12-07-2009 03:17 PM ET (US)
Sounds like a well thought out plan, lots of ways to skin this cat. The only time I've experienced chatter of the VSR is when the house battery is really drawn down. The one load I have that does this is a halogen spreader light that I sometimes use when cleaning the boat up after dark. Once I start the motor, advancing it to fast idle for a minute or two brings the charging current up enough to stop the chatter, and when the house battery voltage recovers the chattering ends and I go back to 600 rpm. In sum, it's no big deal. I am using identical Optima Blue Top AGM batteries, but it was the same story when I had combination type lead-acid units. Since the relay operates on voltage, as long as the house battery voltage is maintained, I don't think it matters what type of battery you use, so long as it is similarly sized. BEP provided a chart that states the required size of the second battery relative to alternator output. I like the idea of a deep cycle for house loads and a start battery for starting, but in reality, the house loads on these small boats are so light I think the combo batteries are fine, be they AGM or lead-acid. The key thing is to meet the motor spec for MCA, and you've got that covered. An alternative may be to use one pure start battery and a combo for the house loads. If you add a kicker later on, it may give more longevity than a deep cycle will for the relatively high current loads of the kicker starter motor. Contrary to what Jimh says (and I consider him an expert on marine electrical topics) I think the VSR systems are pretty simple, particularly the pre-engineered units now available. In my mind, they take the guess work out of operating the battery system, and ensure both batteries are always charged, the start battery always isolated, and the two can be paralleled in an emergency. Adding a battery charger does not really change things in my opinion. As long as the on-board charger is wired directly to each battery, and the batteries are switched off, the VSR should not activate. It's a normally open relay, and it closes when it sees 12.6 volts on the start battery, which requires the start battery switch to be in the on position. Here's a link to the BEP diagram that shows how it works (page 2). http://www.bepmarine.com/store/web/Catalog/Category/ Battery%20Management/Battery%20Charging/Clusters/714-100A/710-100A_Inst. pdf I suspect the Blue Seas system works the same way, check it out. I was at the boat this weekend, and snapped a few pictures of the circuit breaker installation. Since you are going with batteries in the console, you have a lot of options on where to mount it, but I'll include the photos here for others that may be interested. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/andygere/Whaler%20details/ breaker1.jpg Good luck with the project, and keep us posted with photos and details. You'll be glad to have spent the time on it now, because having a reliable electrical system really eliminates a lot of frustration later on. |
Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Freeware Version 2000
Purchase our Licensed Version- which adds many more features!
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.