Moderated Discussion Areas
ContinuousWave: Post-Classic Whalers
Present Day Whalers
|Author||Topic: Present Day Whalers|
posted 05-31-2000 08:31 AM ET (US)
Hope it works...and does not become a new style vs old style war. I used to get a lot
of e-mail questions from the old Whaler forum
where our e-mail address were posted with each reply. Seems a lot of people wanted to ask questions about the new Whalers but didn't want to be bashed.
posted 06-01-2000 09:47 PM ET (US)
Bill, the new [versus] old hull design [dispute] will go on forever as long as their are extreme old hull diehards out there. I am in that group, but respect new hull owners, [off topic material deleted]. I love the `17 Standard [material deleted]. [They're] selling more Whalers than ever so I guess more non-traditional Whaler buyers like the new hulls. Oh well, I`ll just have to take great care of my 73` `16 Currituck [material deleted] Regards-JACK. [MODERATOR's NOTE: This forum is not intended to be a "bash Brunswick Boats" forum, nor will it become one.--JWH]
posted 06-02-2000 05:15 PM ET (US)
Guys, this edited version is not even close to all I wrote. If you want the whole story, e-mail me and I`ll give you the real story. Jim, I have a ton of respect for you and all, and I mean all Whaler owners. For you to edit my post has me a little hurt and shocked. Sorry if I offended you. I guess it isn`t totally a free speach site. Regards-JACK.
posted 06-03-2000 02:19 AM ET (US)
Jim why the censoring?
posted 06-03-2000 10:01 AM ET (US)
I'd like to keep "the boats" the topic of this forum section, not "the company that manufactures them".
posted 06-04-2000 04:31 PM ET (US)
Sorry to say the company and the boats are one and the same --- hard to separate --- at each shift in ownership the "boats" changed for the good or for the whatever --- in fact some of the "originals" as we like to classify prior to xxxx year were in fact poorly designed looking back in retrospect (at least for the task they were promoted to preform)--- so whether it be Brunswick or any other company that might have purchased Whaler one thing remains true --- no business can remain static they have to move with the trends of the current market-- they have to optimize the manufacturing process and reduce cost in a fine juggling act so as not to reduce quality to a point where folks are turned off --- some folks may not care for the newer Whalers --- so what--- that's their opinion and there welcome to it (in some vocal cases they are better off to keep it to themselves in stead of making a fool of themselves) --- however if Whaler had stayed with their antiquated designs we just might not have a Boston Whaler company today --- think about it --- the market isn't static and competition is strong a lot of fine boats out there and BW had to respond --- just my thoughts on the subject of "boats" and the manufacture -- Thomas
PS the BW plant is running flat out today trying to keep up with demand --- that in itself tells you a whole lot
posted 06-04-2000 05:06 PM ET (US)
Thomas, as for Whaler production running full out, it says to me that new Whaler buyers like the new styling and/or doesn`t know or care of the Classic designs, be it bad or good. Regards-JACK.
posted 06-05-2000 03:32 AM ET (US)
Jim, why are you censoring our posts? If comments pertain to Whaler (new or old) they shouldn't be censored! Comments about past, present, or future management are IMO very relevant.
Manufacturers read these groups, and comments from owners are important. Censoring may benefit your future aspirations, but it restricts this forum from carrying our message back to the manufacturer!
posted 06-05-2000 04:56 AM ET (US)
Louie, Kenten Campbel`s whole article in my defense was deleted from this forum? Regards-JACK.
posted 06-05-2000 09:50 AM ET (US)
Could not resist giving my 2 cents. I don't really think that the old versus new topic is relevant. What type of Whaler a person buys is totally up to the individual. Jack, you like what you have, enjoy it.
The great thing about these boats is that with a little care they last forever. As an example, my neighbors grandson in Canada still has the 13' that my Dad grew up waterskiing fishing and picknicking on. That little boat had an experimental HIN on it when my grandfather bought it "very used" for my Dad in the mid 60's.
This past winter I decided that I needed a bigger boat. I sold my 1982 13' for what my grandfather paid for it in 1984 and started looking for something else. Among the boats that I looked at were "classic" Montalks a Newport and one of the really pretty 16/17's with the wood console. My initial thought was that I would buy an old boat and repower. The boat that I (chose, liked, decided upon) after months of scrutiny was a 15 Dauntless. It just seemed like it did everything that I needed it to do the best.
Point being, there were tons of options in the market. There were two real reasons that I made my decision.
1) The boat rides great. My wife can get off of it after an afternoon and not have her back (and front) sore from the pounding.
As far as the quality issue goes, the day that the bowling ball company built my boat they were all about the business of building boats. The hull is solid as a rock, all the add on components are top quality and they are installed correctly.
Jim, please edit my comments away if you have to and lets get down to the business of helping each other out with the boats.
PS, my next whaler '72 21 Outrage. Still wish my Dad had not sold that one...
posted 06-05-2000 10:14 AM ET (US)
There are over 1,000 postings on these forums.
There have only been a few sentences removed from the postings of ONE person.
Because of this, another fellow decided to leave in a huff and sent off a parting shot that was all about me/my website/how I ought to run it/how poor the information on it was, etc, and not about boats. I removed that message. He was free to leave, and I don't think I am under any obligation to him to publish in perpertuity his rather harsh parting comments.
I don't think this is quite CENSORSHIP.
The goal for the FORUM is good information about boats, and not ad hominen attacks on people, boats, or corporations
And if someone starts posting information about nutritional supplements or how to find spiritual salvation, that stuff is going to get removed, too.
In removing this tiny bit of material I seemed to have caused quite a stir.
I clearly made note that I was deleting material.
The material removed was really not significant in information content.
I removed it because in my view its publication would tend to reduce the likelyhood that others would partipate in the discussion.
After someone pees in the swimming pool, people are reluctant to jump in for a swim.
In addition, the reputation of this website,
This whole topic area, Neo-Classic Whalers, was created because there are people who would like to discuss their newer boats and their newer boats features and problems and performance.
There is room for them, for their postings, and for their opinions, on this website and in this community of Whaler owners.
Before they even get a chance to show up and post, they should not be bombarded with negativity.
posted 06-05-2000 11:41 AM ET (US)
For those that may care, I am the one who supposedly left in a "huff"! I did not leave in a huff, Jim. For me, it is not an old vs. new issue. I love my old '60's Whaler, but Louie's new Guardian is an awesome machine. In e-mail correspondence with others on this site, I have stated that if money were no object for me, I would buy a NEW Montauk. As stated before, I am into the "classics" because I can't afford to keep up with the new technology. I simply can not tolerate a forum where participants are unilaterally muzzled because their views do not agree with the moderator.
As for my "parting shot", I knew that you couldn't take it. I offered you some sound advice about you website. You have obviously construed that as bashing. The current discussions in the forum about steering(no responses), bearings(couldn't find the link),and the electical item, among others, reinforce my claim that the technical content IS weak. I didn't say POOR, just weak. If you want a well-rounded site, I think you need to address these matters.
Jim, you are way too personally involved and way too sensitive. But as I said in my now deleted post, it's your party!
For anyone that is interested in what I actually posted, I retained a copy of the posting. I would be happy to e-mail it to anyone who would care.
Now, I am finished!
posted 06-05-2000 12:02 PM ET (US)
Jim you are right and I had hoped to make the point that the discussion of who owns Whaler is totally a mute POINT --- I for one am not a purist and sure as heck would like to see new owners of Whalers join in the forum --- they have the same questions as any of us on performance issues, trailer issues, parts and accessory items, sources of supply -- etc. etc. etc.
We just got Amy's Whaler up from Clark Roberts after 1100 miles plus on the Intercoastal Waterway --- myself, wife and 8 year old daughter all had a great adventure -- however I could start to go into a lot of detail how our "87-- 27 could have been better designed just as I could start on how our 20'-- 78 Outrage was one of the worst riding boats in heavy chop I have ever driven or ridden on --- guess my "point" is that anything and everything can be criticized!!
A little food for thought is that the newer Whalers given this day and age just might become the so called "classics" in the near future and what you all refer to as the "classic" today will be referred to as the antique of yesterday --- who knows --- Whalers new or old are Whalers and all should be accepted as such --- ugh to much talking --- anyway Jim keep up the fine work --- you might re-call I was one of if not the first to post on this forum and happy it has developed into informative forum and nicely expanded interesting website --- best regards Thomas
posted 06-05-2000 05:16 PM ET (US)
Guys, I never expected this would get so heated. I really have a beef for Brunswick,this is true, but not new Whaler owners. I respect their decision for buying a new one. I am just frustrated on the styling descisions, color, and Mercury only options, thats all.I speak my mind about the new hulls, rubrails etc, but please don`t take it so personally. I like all Whaler owners, thats the point. O.K. Regards-JACK.
posted 06-06-2000 07:47 AM ET (US)
Jack, Just a couple of (and I hope friendly) questions. (1) you state another board that the new Whalers are stern heavy. Thats a pretty broad statement. Since I can only speak towards the 21' Conquest, heres my take on your comment. At rest my 21 sits level and with part of the trim tabs barely under water. Since these are flush with the hull it
doesn't appear to be "stern heavy boat". Also, with a full tank of gas, 92 gals, and 2 people with dive gear on, 225 OMC engine, at the rear of the boat, the splash well lip is still well above the surface of the water. The advertised 18" draft of the 21 appears to be accurate as I must navigate 2' and less of water to get into the Gulf. Second question, Mercury only power??, my dealer gave me no problem installing OMC power. And I believe OMC pre-rig to still be an option. Its only smart for a corporation to try and "encourage" the use of its products over the use of the competition. OMC does the same with the boat companys it owns. I'll say it again, my classic Whaler was a great boat, my
new style Whaler while different, has thus far proved to be a great boat.
posted 06-06-2000 04:05 PM ET (US)
Jim: I'm eternally grateful to you for getting the forum up and running. It has provided me useful information, quick access to people I would otherwise probably never even know of, and opportunities to visit new places and make new friends. This is your website and your forum; run it the way you want, but please....keep running it!!
posted 06-06-2000 05:15 PM ET (US)
Bill, I`m glad you`re enjoying you`re new Whaler. As for motor options and pre-rigs. I went to 2 dealers, One was a MarineMax dealer, another an independant dealer. Both told me they cannot sell me anything other than a Mercury. Boston Whaler told them this! The dealers also told me that Boston Whaler will not put anything other than a Mercury pre-rig on a new Whaler. Can you believe that! And people wonder why I won`t touch a new Whaler, and there are a ton of reasons. Regards-JACK.
posted 06-06-2000 10:53 PM ET (US)
Jack, Whaler will ship boats with no rigging. Dealers must factory order them, not pull them from existing inventory - but they will do it.
posted 06-07-2000 07:00 AM ET (US)
Jack, Thats interesting, looking at mine it has a Mercury gas filter (which I changed to a Racor fuel/water). Guages are the standard
ones, and the throttle linkage has no OMC
markings. Steering is by teleflex. Regardless though I understand a company trying to "push" their products, but its pretty simple to get around this. Most all of the engine companys are being paired with some brand of boats either through joint agreements or ownership.
Would you agree that my Conquest,based on my description, is not stern heavy? I think of
posted 06-07-2000 08:18 AM ET (US)
Just checked to BW website and just looking at the options for a few of the different models both OMC amd Mercury pre-rig is still listed. (The 34 Defiance didn't list either option...<grin>)
posted 06-07-2000 08:27 AM ET (US)
Whoever said it is correct. According to a dealer that shall remain nameless, the Mercury pre-rig is standard. A dealer can delete that standard feature and install any motor that the customer wants. One wrinkle, if you delete the Merc pre-rig you still pay for it or at least there is no price break for deleting it.
Stern heavy, no. My 15' Dauntless has a 75hp Merc on the back (300lbs) and sits flat and level in the water. This weekend I was running down the Potomac with my wife and sister in law sitting on the stern bench and the boat ran great...
I also wanted to thank Jim for his efforts with this site. I have learned so much from the really "whaler knowledgeable" people that have taken up residence here...
posted 06-07-2000 10:35 AM ET (US)
Dave, my understanding is:
Whaler will ship with no rigging (ie no guages or throttle fed to the transom.
The boat must be factory ordered
There is a discount applicable
The commercial division will rig with any power.
PS Shock boats in LA regularly brings in bare boats and rigs them with Yamaha power.
posted 06-07-2000 11:43 AM ET (US)
Ahhh, conflicting info, to often the way of the world. I am just repeating what I was told. The dealer that I talked to routinely rigged with Honda and found that customers would pay the premium for both the motor and the rigging. By the way, love your boat...the black rails and cleats look awesome!!!
posted 06-07-2000 06:53 PM ET (US)
Thanks for the info guys, the dealers said if I delete the pre-rigging there is no discount, and to take the preirigging and sell it to someone, thats a good idea! I`ll wait until Boston Whaler wakes up and offers other engines and pre-rigging, just my convictions. Regards-Jack Graner.
posted 06-07-2000 10:37 PM ET (US)
I think the problem is with some of the dealers - they don't realize they can order a bare boat - or simply don't want to wait for a factory order, thinking a boat sold is better than a boat ordered. Either way, they are feeding you misinformation. Here on the West Coast Schock boats, The Outboard Motor Shop, and M&P Mercury have been Whaler dealers for decades - all of them bring in boats and rig them to their customers specs.
PS Thanks for the complements.
posted 06-08-2000 07:03 AM ET (US)
Speaking of dealers.... A good one makes all the difference. I live in Atlanta, keep my boat at Gulf Shores, Ala., and the dealer I went with is in middle Florida. The Atlanta dealer was a Mercury dealer only (seemed like good people, just not the motor I wanted). The closest dealer to Gulf Shores sold both
merc's and OMC so I figured thats were I would trade. Since I was trying to buy in November and would not get a lot of use out of the boat for 3-4 months I figured what price I thought was fair for both me and the dealer for a in stock Conquest. He didn't like my price and since the model year was ending I decided to wait until Spring. While waiting I e-mailed a number of Whaler dealers describing options I wanted and asking for price if thay had one in stock. I received a number of offers and "my" dealer came back with the price I offered the dealer close to Gulf Shores. We did everything by phone, he delivered the boat to me, everything was as ordered, and he even picked the boat up and took it back to his shop for the twenty hour motor service, and delivered it back to me (no charge for pickup.delivery)
He stays in contact and has always done everything we have agreed too. Should I ever buy another boat he'll get my business and I send people to him whenever someone talks about buying a boat.
posted 06-08-2000 06:23 PM ET (US)
I have some "inside" information on the subject of engines on the new Whalers. If they can pull it off, all year 2001 Recreational Division Whalers (going into production next month) WILL come with Mercury Outboards, of any horsepower and stroke(2 or 4) of your choice. A buyer ALSO WILL be able to get another brand installed by a DEALER, but the credit will not come near the cost of the competitive brand. So either those Dealers will have to make a lot less profit on the engine, or a prospective buyer will have to pay a lot more for power of his choice. This is sure to get a lot of complaints from Dealers who previously have had long term relationships with other brands, but this is the new form of big business in the boating world. Actually, this has been done on other brands of outboard boats for years, including OMC's brands, and now Yahama is doing it also with their newly purchased boat companies. So we shouldn't be so hard on Mercury. What goes around comes around! If one buys a "Four Winns" I/O, you have one choice - an OMC I/O. If one buys a "Sea Ray" I/O, you have one choice - a Mercury I/O. You can't buy a Chevy with a Ford engine either. So I guess this theory and "business model" is now being applied in the Outboard world also. I heard that when Meridian was putting Boston Whaler back up for sale in 1996, OMC was really interested in buying, but at the time was experiencing severe financial difficulties, so Mercury prevailed. But if OMC had gotten the Company, we'd now have one choice in power also, OMC! And nobody should think that Yamaha or Honda would act any differently either.
posted 06-08-2000 11:19 PM ET (US)
Larry, it sure is a sad state of affairs in the big business of boat companies. I think it is a slap in the face to offer a package with their brand engine and then if you want to delete their engine they don`t want to give you full credit. I hope they(corporations that own boat-engine products) change back to being customer freindly again. If Boston Whaler sells you a Whaler with lets say an OMC engine and controls from the factory, their still making a profit. I don`t see what is so hard for them to see that! Regards-JACK.
posted 06-09-2000 07:56 AM ET (US)
Larry, the BW/Merc deal makes good business sense to me, assuming they as you say can pull it off!!
However, I think any dealer which say handles OMC or Yamaha (carries BW and Mercs) has plenty of margin to offset any package deal on an engine from a boat/engine manufacture --- if the customer wants something other with the boat and the dealer wants the sale (most do) they'll handle it competitively.
That brings me to another point. How does the typical boat buyer --- "BUY" --- just like autos the "package" deal, even so called "custom" ordered autos force you to choose the "packages" just like a Chinese menu choose one from column A and one from column B but if you want one from column C you have to substitute the one from column A for etc. etc. --- chuckle chuckle --- no secret there and in the boat industry particularly in the non-custom boats I would venture to say probably over 90% of new boats are sold this way ( have been for quit awhile) --- the small percent of educated customers which analyze/research their purchase or have a particular preference based on previous experience is a relative small handful of individuals --- (might add to this the big question --- "how much are the monthly payments" which is definitely for most folks part of the purchase equation)
So does this mean you will have to pay more for what you want outside of the packages? --- NO --- the customer can always shop --- spend a little effort and generally it pays off --- always take the "bull" a dealer throws out with a grain of salt, your the one paying the money and it is your right to negotiate the best deal and the equipment you want --- if that doesn't fly with a particular dealer pick up your brief case and move on to another --- their still is plenty of competition out there --- ( if you can never finance through the dealer)
Nothing is written that says you have to buy your engine from the dealer selling you the boat either, granted more convenient! At least in the NE plenty of outboard dealers who will be more than happy to sell you just the engines and do the rigging at very competitive pricing, just have to drive your new boat in---
Case in point, talking to a fellow up in Mass. the other day said the dealer didn't handle OMC's but was happy just to sell him the boat (this was not a BW) as he wanted equipped less motors -- said he went out shopping for two big OMC's --- funny out of three dealers he received prices from as high as $28,000 to a low of $19,500 on the same units rigged out on his new boat --- needless to say he is very happy with the $19,500 installation ----
Lots of words I'm afraid, though I did want to throw my two cents in on how it is very easy with a little effort to circumvent the so-called package deal --- amen --- Thomas
posted 06-09-2000 02:47 PM ET (US)
Tom: I agree with you completely, and your way is the way I have always bought my Whalers also. In the first 30 years, almost 90% of BW Dealers handled OMC, and being a Merc guy, I always had to shop around to buy the engines separately, and always saved a ton by doing so. As strange as it may sound, I intentionally avoided any Whaler Dealer who was a Merc Dealer because of the "package pricing" problem!! But it is more work and effort, and you have to know your stuff, and know how you want the boat rigged, since the "other brand" engine dealer will not be familiar with Whalers. For most of the guys on this site, none of this is a problem, but for many buyers it is, and that is what the industry is counting on.
The word I have is that boats will come from the factory WITH the Merc engine already installed and rigged, either per Whaler's recommended power, the Dealers showroom inventory order, or a customers special order, which could take about 2-3 months. I know of a Dealer who has been OMC and Yahama for years, and when I checked out his new Whaler inventory, at least 90% came from the factory with Mercs. So something is going on here.
Regarding this new "Sport 13" package, has anybody tried to buy one with another brand engine? Or a non-EZ Loader trailer? Can it be done?
posted 06-09-2000 03:02 PM ET (US)
Larry guess we both know being in our "later" years heh heh -- that one has to educate themselves to learn as the saying goes how to walk the walk and talk the talk --- no free lunches out there --- boat dealers are just as vicious and hungry as any other business --- you just have to be as sharp -- regards Tom --
PS how long did it take to bring the 25 back of to the windy city? our trip up the ICW took a total of 10 days (approx.. 1100 miles) with a two day lay over in Coinjock NC due to the gale --
posted 06-09-2000 05:18 PM ET (US)
Tom: It's about 1400 miles from my section of FL, and with an average speed of around 58mph, it takes about 24 hours driving time.
Frequent gas stops, since I only get about 6.5 miles to the gallon, add additional time.
With the price of gas these days, fuel cost was way up! But it sure beats coming up the Mississippi river!
posted 06-16-2000 01:55 AM ET (US)
I am Not going to get involved with the corporate issues involved in whaler manufacturing. I would like to express my opinions. First I owned a 1968 Sport. The boat was austere having only a steering wheel mounted atop a small wooden console and thwart wood seats The interior (classic blue) had it's share of hairline cracks. Also, I remember a large round cirlular cover impression noticably visible afore the boat (foam injection port). It had 40 Johnson. The boat rode hard. Hitting waves head-on (which is sometimes unavoidable) felt like you were taking a barrel ride under Niagra Falls. This is not a pleasant experience in early spring when the water in Long Island Sound has ice cubes in it! The boat was sold after 3 years of dependable use. To be honest I didn't like the boat because of the hard/wet ride. Now some 12 years later a 15 yr old son wants a boat. So I hook up with 1 1988 13 BW Super Sport. Guys I gotta say I love this boat. Rails all around; bigger console with top dash for fish finder, soda can or just sitting, step pad on bow, wrap arond motor well provides extra cockpit space; higher seat woth back-rest, storage area in seat for cusions, PFDs, Rain Jackets, Flares etc... Best of all the ride is smother and the spray is deflected away. I think the boat is prettier, more confortable and by the was that foam filer port is hidden in the bow storage locker...Nice. Point being to each his own. For me the 88 beats the 68 by a mile
posted 06-20-2000 10:47 AM ET (US)
I spent many summers on a 13 foot whaler and it seemed that everyone in the neighborhood had the same boat. Since those days I've had my share of "booze and cruise" boats and learned some expensive lessons about boat quality. My last boat was a 19 foot Bayliner, enough said about that.
I just bought a 1996 20 foot Dauntless and now I'm wondering what I got. I know the BW experts on this board know the answer. Who owned BW in 1996 when they produced the Dauntless? I was told the 20 Dauntless is the same hull design as the 20 Ventura, is that true? I realize that Brunswick owns both BW and Bayliner but was assured that the production of the BW was separate from the Bayliner, true? Is it also separate from the production of Sea Ray?
I took the boat for a sea trial last weekend in Buzzards Bay (Cape Cod) and it was comforatble and surpisingly dry given the wave and wind conditions. Although I didn't notice any problem, I've been told that the hull design for the 20 Dauntless causes the boat to porpoise. Has anyone else heard of this problem? If there is a hull design problem why would BW continue to sell the same hull which has been relabelled the Ventura 20?
posted 06-20-2000 06:15 PM ET (US)
PDM: Here's what you got. Your hull, which began life as a 19 Outrage, was the 1996 replacement for the prior Classic 18/19 Outrage II, which was last made in 1995. They also built the Dauntless bow rider model on this hull, and called it Dauntless 20. (your boat). This boat was designed under the Meridian period of ownership of Whaler, before Brunswick/Sea Ray. (Meridian Group also made Coleman Coolers, Mastercraft ski boats, O'Brien water ski equip) Although Brunswick bought the company in May of 1996, this hull came to them from Meridian. Sea Ray and Bayliner were not involved at all, but kept it the line until they could design their own replacement hull. In it's last year, 1999, the boat was renamed the Ventura, in keeping with Brunswick's change in line names so that none of their Dauntless models were bow riders. All of Brunswick/Sea Ray's Dauntless models are center consoles. In 2000, the boat was dropped altogether as Brunswick/Sea Ray has their own designed Ventura, now a 21 foot bow rider, built on THEIR 21 Outrage & Conquest hull.
I can tell you that Brunswick has never let the Bayliner name come even close to having any association with Boston Whaler.
Purchase our Licensed Version- which adds many more features!
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.