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Author Topic:   New vs. Classic
Bashaw posted 10-26-2000 10:56 AM ET (US)   Profile for Bashaw   Send Email to Bashaw  
Not that I want to stir up the heated exchanges on the ď23 impressionsĒ thread, but I would like to add some reasoned thought on this whole debate.

There seems to be a genuine dislike by many in this forum of the Whalers that came into existence after Reebok to them over and continue today. I share some of the concerns, primarily that the newer designs are much heavier than the older designs. It wasnít to long ago that Boston Whaler produced a deep V Outrage 17 that weighed 1700 lbs and could be be pushed with a 115. The latest Outrage 18 weighs 2300 lbs and needs a 135. This all adds up to a bigger tow vehicle, and more gas consumption all around. It is maddening when Scoutís 185 Sport fish is 1450 lbs, and the 175 Sportfish is 1050 lbs. Edgewater's line is a little heavier than Scoutís but not like the Outrages. The Dauntless line is lighter but canít handle the weight of the new 4 stroke motors, at least not for full rated power.

Why is the Montauk so expensive? Most dealers charge more for a Montauk than a Dauntless 16. The development costs of the Montauk have been recouped long ago. There are less material costs as well. Labor costs might be higher. I personally think a Montauk should be $ 15,000; boat, motor, and trailer. Would more of them sell? Probably, but at the expense of Dauntless 16 sales?

Now something to ponder. If you are a supporter of the classic line, when did you buy your first Whaler? Have you ever bought a new Whaler? Boston Whaler canít produce boats based on the desires of people who arenít going to buy them. Has anybody ever considered that the supply of good used classics is depressing the sales of the new boats? Why pay for a new Montauk when one can get a really good used one for a lot less money? The overall durability and quality of Whalers may mean that new customers must be sought out; people that can be sold on the virtue of an unsinkable Duo-Bond hull; but not of the virtue of hard, wet rides or low freeboard or lack of comfort in exchange for light weight and ď"fishabilty"Ē.

The Macintosh computer camp has a similar ďwarĒ going on. Ever since the iMacs and B/W G3s came along some traditionalists have been loudly complaining; not enough PCI slots, no PCI slots, no scsi, no mac serial ports, no ADB, on and on. Yet one of the common elements to the complainers is that they havenít purchased a new computer from Apple in years. My point is that just like Boston Whaler making boats Apple needs to make computer that people will buy; no matter how this irritates the traditionalists.

Apple and Whaler must have made some correct decisions because both are selling their products as fast as they can produce them. My local Whaler dealer can barely keep up with the demand, especially for the 13 Sport. He just sold four more, here in Michigan in October. With the exception of the 14 he couldnít get enough Dauntless boats, especially the 16. I think he sold one new Montauk, his personal favorite.

The desires of the boating public are changing, Boston Whaler needs respond or go out of business. Personally, I would much rather Duo-Bond, unsinkable Dauntless and Euro Outrages than no Whalers at all.

The_Ox posted 10-26-2000 09:44 PM ET (US)     Profile for The_Ox  Send Email to The_Ox     
You make some very good points there Bashaw. I too am a bit suspect of the new Whalers, are they as good as there older cousins. I would like to hear from owners of both new and clasic whalers. I am looking for my first boat but I don't know if the non clasic Whalers are any better then a Carolina Skiff, Edgewater or maybe a Maritime Skiff. Has the new Whaler lost a step or two, are they over priced and still living in the past. I am not knocking the Whaler, I would love to have one and am activily looking for a used 13 footer. If I was to purchase a new boat should I look at the new Whalers in the same light as the clasic ones?
bigz posted 10-27-2000 10:25 AM ET (US)     Profile for bigz    
The_Ox
You look at any boat Whaler or otherwise in the regard of satisfying your needs --- that said ---

The newer Whalers are fine craft and in their class still one of the best purchase choices over any of their competition --- I must emphasis again purchase based on your needs --- if you haven't defined them well that's your starting point --- Regards Tom

blackdog posted 10-27-2000 10:25 AM ET (US)     Profile for blackdog  Send Email to blackdog     
Bashaw-
Good thoughts all around- -
I have 2001 16í Dauntless. It is a heavy boat to say the least, but I like that as it crashes through waves and keeps us very dry. The Accutrak hull does not slide at all and keeps the boat running true even in heavy chop. I pull it with Toyota Pickup with a V-6 which seems to handle it very well on the ramp, in and out of the water as well as the highway. I have a Evinrude 115 FICHT to push it through the water, plenty of power and easily gets the boat on plane with very low fuel consumption and almost no Smoke!
The only point I might disagree on was the boats ability to handle the weight of a 4 stroke. The Mercury 2 stroke that is usually rigged from B/W is a very heavy engine. I think my Evinrude 2 stroke 115 is about 373lbs vs. the Mercury 115ís 442Lbs. The Honda 115 4 Stroke weighs in at 496lbs. My point is that the 16 Dauntless is a very sturdy boat that can handle the weight of 4 stroke engines.
lhg posted 10-27-2000 01:07 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Clarifying on the Merc 115's, it is the V-6 Optimax that weighs the 442 lb, vs Merc's conventional 2 stroke in-line 4 115hp that weighs 347 lb. For those interested in the 115 comparisons, JimH listed a link on another thread with comparison testing. For sheer speed and power, the Merc 115 Optimax ran away from the crowd, in spite of being the heaviest. The reason being it's built on the same block as the 200Hp EFI's, and looks just like them! (200Hp EFI's weigh 410 lbs, since they don't have to carry the air compressor/injection equipment)
Whaletosh posted 10-27-2000 04:11 PM ET (US)     Profile for Whaletosh    
I had Jim change my user name, it used to be Bashaw, I needed something more creative. Whaletosh is my newly thought up handle.

Blackdog,

First let me state that I like the Dauntless line. My first Whaler was a 13 Dauntless. I fell in love with center console designs long before I could afford one. I fell in love with whalers when I looked at the quality of them. I tell my wife all the time that we have the best boat on the lake. My current whaler is 13 sport.

For clarity I am only talking about 4 stroke motors from here on out.

The Dauntless 16 is everything you say it is. It is a very strong hull that can structurally handle the weight of larger four strokes. But if you look at the spec page in the 2000/2001 Whaler brochure you will see that for the Dauntless/Ventura lines there are maximum engine weights that Whaler recommends. I donít have the manuals right here in front of me but I did check with Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, Mercury, and Evinrude earlier this summer. In 2000 model motors nothing over 90 HP was under the maximum recomended engine weight even though the 16 Dauntless/Ventura is rated for 115 HP. Yamaha has released an EFI 4 stroke 115 that does fall under the weight maximum, but getting a Yamaha on a new Whaler is much more difficult than it used to be.

The problem with exceeding the maximum recommended weight is not safety or damaging the hull. Whaler stated that the boats might become hard to plane, would be prone to porposing, and might have water leaking in through the scuppers. None of these is dangerous or a sign of poor quality.

I suspect that Mercury will probably solve this problem for Whaler. I will bet that the 90 HP will get an additional 10 ponies before the end of next summer. If Mercury decides to go with EFI I will bet that 90 will get another 25 to match Yamaha 115. I suspect that Mercury doesnít do so now because they donít want to cannibalize sales of the 115 Optimax. They are going to have to eventually though. Most people know about the 2006 EPA standards, but there are also 2008 standards. The 2008 standards may not be attainable with 2 stroke technology at all.

I have already decided to get a bigger Whaler after next season if I possibly can. the question is which one. If the commercial units are not much more than the Dauntless line then that is what I may go with. I really would like to have a kicker motor. I can always save some of the cost by doing some of the rigging myself. One of the advantages to having a natural, God given talent for working with tools.

Sean Bashaw

Whaletosh posted 10-27-2000 04:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for Whaletosh    
Blackdog,

I forgot to ask you what kind of Toyota truck do you have?

Mine is a gorgeous black T100 SR5 XtraCab 4WD witha 3.8 L V6. I can't wait for winter, I love boating but do love X-country skiing and actually using my transfer case. Besides we need a couple of good winters to raise the water levels here in the Great lakes area. Some of the inland lakes have almost dried up.

blackdog posted 10-27-2000 05:35 PM ET (US)     Profile for blackdog  Send Email to blackdog     
Whaletosh
In this area I was able to find two dealers who would put a Yamaha or Honda on. One had a Honda 90 4 Stroke on the back of a 16 Dauntless in the show room. The next time I went in the shop it was sold and we talked about its performance. The sales rep said he would rather see me go with a Yamaha 2 stroke or the Evinrude 2 stroke (Ficht) for performance reasons. I got the same feedback from a different dealer. They recommended going up to a 115 but then the weight problem. Anyway the 115 Ficht flys!

I have a White Tacoma with the TRD off road PKG, Extended cab, 4x4, V-6 and all the goodies. I just got it last May. So I have a white truck pulling a white boat. People comment on that all the time. I really like the Tundra & T100 but I drive 30 miles each way to work and need the extra gas mileage. I Test-drove the Tundra and it is very nice inside & the V-8 really moves out. I canít wait for the snow myself.
Very said this may be the last nice weekend we have in NJ & SE Pennsylvania so I am going out Saturday for sure!

bigz posted 10-28-2000 05:17 AM ET (US)     Profile for bigz    
BG --- well Gale Warnings are posted even in the Delaware north of East Point and the "reel feel" temp will be a high of 38F --- keep your weather canvas up -- Z

http://www.intellicast.com/cgi-bin/marine?PHL

Keith Silliman posted 10-28-2000 06:01 AM ET (US)     Profile for Keith Silliman    
Whaletosh/Bashaw:

I bought my new Montauk because I wanted to be sure I was investing in a high quality "working" boat, not a toy. I did not base my selection on a detailed product search or comparison, but rather on my experience in observing various boats over the years, mostly on the Cape and Nantucket. The issue for me was not one of which manufacturer, but rather, which Whaler. The premium I paid was well worth it.

Hopefully, in twenty years, I will be here staunchly supporting my "classic whaler" on the forum. More hopefully, BW will still be offering the neoclassic Montauk for sale.

Your analogy to Mac computers is right on. Here's another-- I have a 1991 Toyota 4WD Truck. It's old; probably can't tow my boat, and is beginning to rust. It's the best vehicle I have ever owned and I'll drive it until it won't go anymore (then I'll give it to my son). I won't get a "new" Toyota truck--why? I think the quality has gone downhill. (I'm almost afraid to see if there is a forum for Toyota Truck Owners, I don't think I could handle another classic vs. new debate!!)

I think I'll go sit on my boat-- It's in the garage for the Winter.

Regards,

Keith Silliman

Clark Roberts posted 10-28-2000 07:43 AM ET (US)     Profile for Clark Roberts  Send Email to Clark Roberts     
Sean, for 2001 Merc has dropped the V6 Optimax 115hp and offers the 115 Merc/Yamaha four stroke! happy Whalin'... Clark
PS>this engine is the 75-90hpMerc/80-100hp Yamaha block bored out a little so weight is same as the lower hp models...
Clark Roberts posted 10-28-2000 08:23 AM ET (US)     Profile for Clark Roberts  Send Email to Clark Roberts     
Correction! Not bored out but stroked to increase displacement from 97.4 to 106.2 cubic inches! (Stroke increased from 3.2" to 3.495"). Also alternator output increased from 20 to 25 amperes and the new 115 is electronicly fuel injected (EFI) and others are carb. All other specs seem to be same including lower unit ratio of 2.07:1 and dry weight of 386 lbs... Just trying to be complete here.. heh, heh.. Clark .. Spruce Creek Navy
Clark Roberts posted 10-28-2000 10:49 AM ET (US)     Profile for Clark Roberts  Send Email to Clark Roberts     
Me again! more info on Merc. Merc is adding a 175hp version of the Optimax 2.5Liter block... so the Opti line up for 2001 is 135,150,175hp (on the 2.5 block) and 200 and 225hp on the 3.0L block....Happy Whalin'// Clark
lhg posted 10-28-2000 02:23 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Clark: Thanks for the info on the new Mercs.
I was wondering when they were going to fill some of those gaps. Since the NMMA Marine trade show has moved to Orlando, I can't get the early information anymore! But I have also heard there is 250HP Optimax in the works, probably also built on the 3 litre block. Don't know when it's coming out.
Whaletosh posted 10-30-2000 08:53 AM ET (US)     Profile for Whaletosh    
Clark,

I can't find any info on the 115 Mercury Four stroke on the Mercury website. I'll take you at you word, you have always been correct in the past. I have until next fall at the earliest to decide on the new boat. As I stated before I could be happy with a classic hull or an Accu-Trak hull.

Now that this 115 is available my chocies are:

Dauntless 16
Justice 17/Outrage 17
Gaurdian 19/Outrage 18.5
Montauk 17
Justice 15/Dauntless 15

The Justice 15/Dauntless 15 is the smallest I will consider.

If I could come up with a decent used one of any of the above I will certainly consider it. The only real concern I have is that I don't want a conventional 2 stroke. I put up with the smoke and hard starting on my first 4 boats and I am not going to do so anymore. The 4 stroke Merc 25 on my 13 Sport starts on the first try and stays running until I turn it off. On warm summer days I don't even need to advance the throttle or use the enriching valve.

Thanks again Clark, this was welcome news.

Sean Bashaw

Clark Roberts posted 10-30-2000 06:38 PM ET (US)     Profile for Clark Roberts  Send Email to Clark Roberts     
Sean, I have the 2001 Merc spec sheets and info is correct... BTW, the colors and graphics are unchaged from the 2000 models... and according to inside info. the only difference in the Saltwater and Freshwater engines are the Blue and Red graphics respectfully.... and about 100bucks.. go figure... Happy Whalin'// The Old Man and the Sea
lhg posted 10-30-2000 08:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Clark, Prior to 2001, the "red" graphics Merc outboards (freshwater) only came in 20" shafts, and counter rotation was not available on any of the V-6 models. If you wanted 25" or 30" (225's and 250's) shafts, 115HP and above, and/or CR, you HAD to get a Saltwater version. I was under the impression that the tilt tube and some other components were SS on the Saltwater versions, at least in 90 & 115HP versions. I know that my 1997 200EFI Saltwater engines have the newer SS tilt tube. The extra 5" of shaft length is probably the reason for the $100 extra. If you ask me, the price of all new outboard engines these days is getting ridiculous!! Are the new 115Hp 4 strokes available in 25" shaft length and CR?
whalernut posted 10-30-2000 10:56 PM ET (US)     Profile for whalernut  Send Email to whalernut     
Larry, I have to 2nd the notion that new outboard motors are grossly overpriced. You know their overpriced, especially over 15h.p., when you can get a new basic 14-16ft. aluminum boat, triler, and 9.9-15h.p. outboard for around $3000, and a new 90h.p. outboard is about $5000! Wow! You can fish the $3000 package almost anywhere in the USA, even on the Great Lakes on certain days, I know because I have done it many of times and see lots more fishermen on Lake Erie with this setup, usually within 5 miles of shore. Does anyone have a clue as to why such a sharp rise in outboard prices? Regards-Jack Graner.
Clark Roberts posted 10-31-2000 06:03 AM ET (US)     Profile for Clark Roberts  Send Email to Clark Roberts     
Larry, it only shows a 20" shaft length but the sheet I have is not complete for all options... I suspect that XL and CR will be offered.... Clark
Whaletosh posted 10-31-2000 09:01 AM ET (US)     Profile for Whaletosh    
I did some more prowling on the web.

Yamaha's F100 weighs 356 lbs, the Mercury 90 weighs 386 lbs.

This is all the more reason that I am considering an unpowered hull or used one that can be repowered. I don't doubt the quality of Mercs, the two that I have owned were very relable. But they are not keeping up with the competiton.

Has anyone actually put a Kicker motor on a Dauntless 16 or a Deep V outrage 17?

Clark Roberts posted 10-31-2000 11:31 AM ET (US)     Profile for Clark Roberts  Send Email to Clark Roberts     
Whalertosh, the Merc 115/90/75 hp 4 stroker weighs 386lbs....
Whaletosh posted 10-31-2000 04:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for Whaletosh    
Clark,

This just proves my point, the Yamaha F100 is 30 lbs lighter than the Mercury 90 or 75. Not a lot of weight, but would certainly help make putting a kicker on the back of a Dauntless 16 easier.

This doesn't mean that I won't go with a Mercury but it will be a factor when I make my decision.

The Honda 90 is 373 lbs.
The Yamaha F100 is 356 lbs.
The Yamaha 115 is 398 lbs.
The Suzuki 90 is a hefty 416 lbs.

This is also the reason I am going to look at the price of a Justice 17. This is the same basic hull that Whaler sold as the Outrage 17 just a couple of years ago. It can handle the extra motor weight much better than the current Dauntless 16.

As others have indicated what I use the boat for should be determining factor. I use mine to fish in Lake Michigan, Lake Huron, and inland lakes. I just keep my 13 Sport close to the pier heads. I would like to venture further offshore. I believe that I should have kicker motor for safety.
That is one of the resons that I like the older Outrages, the nice wide motor well makes dual or kicker motor setups really easy.

I also think that stuff like this is part of the reason for the reaction that some of us have against the new Whalers. We want cockpit space, wide motor wells, low weight, plenty of space for mounting electronics/downriggers/rod holders. The new Whalers, mostly the smaller ones, are not as easy doo all of this on. I am a realist though, the world is changing. Less people are fishing, the population is aging, and the competion for recreation time is increasing. Whaler must take this into consideration for product developement. This doesn't mean that I won't buy the new whalers, I just will need to weigh all of my options more carefully.

dgp posted 10-31-2000 06:27 PM ET (US)     Profile for dgp  Send Email to dgp     
Whaletosh, with the reliability of today's outboards, both 2 and 4 cycle, I'd forgo the kicker and buy a good VHF radio. Besides, look at all the money you'd save. Don
Clark Roberts posted 10-31-2000 06:29 PM ET (US)     Profile for Clark Roberts  Send Email to Clark Roberts     
Whalertosh, sounds like you're weighing all your options (no pun intended, heh, heh). We would all do well to give our purchaces as much thought... Isn't it nice that we all have the "choice" to buy what we want!!!!??? Go for it! Happy Whalin'... Clark.. Spruce Creek Navy
Louie Kokinis posted 10-31-2000 07:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for Louie Kokinis    
Whalertosh, be careful when it comes to engines especially the heavier ones. If you intend to add a kicker, check with CPD first. They have max transom(engine)weights for the commercial boats, I'm sure the rec. boats would be close).

15 Justice (Dauntless) - 310 lbs
17 Guardian (Montauk)- 330 lbs
18 Guardian - (Outrage) - 510 lbs

If you put more than recommended engine weight on the stern, the extra weight can put scuppers under water, cause the hull to porpoise, and obviously increase time to plane.

Louie

lhg posted 10-31-2000 08:19 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Whaletosh: I didn't have much to say about your listing of 5 possible boats until you mentioned that you are looking for a boat to fish OFFSHORE in the Great Lakes. I have had personal experience in all but the Dauntless 16, and after 30 years in Boston Whalers, 20 of it on the Great Lakes, here's the best advice I can give you, in size order:

Forget the old Dauntless 15. It is not much more boat than your current 13, and has running characteristics that are not recommended for offshore use in big water.
Was never a big seller, and hasn't been very popular on the used market either. It's an inland lakes boat. The 15 that preceeded it was a superior running hull.

The Dauntless 16, like all Dauntless models, is billed by Whaler as an "INSHORE" boat. Except for being 2 1/2' shorter, it has the same weight and beam as the 18 Outrage. Can't believe it has the fishing space or sea keeping abilities of the old 18 Outrage. Other than that, I have no experience with the boat. People that have them like them, however.

The Montauk would be my second choice, particularly if size and cost are an issue for you. This is the most for the least.
I regularly fished up to 15 miles offshore in Lake Michigan in this model. Nothing else needs to be said for this boat. Detractors say it rides hard. But that's up to the driver.

The Meridian era Outrage 17 is hardly more boat than a Montauk, and although it has a smoother ride, is not as stable and seems to have very little in the "pointy" bow to handle large waves. It feels like a small boat to me! I'd prefer to go to sea in a Montauk, with it's large broad bow that always gets you up and over the next big wave. Be sure to take one of these 17's out in big seas before buying! Doubt if you'll feel comfortable. Then I doubt that you'll buy one!

The Outrage 18/Guardian 19 is the boat you want, if you can swing it, cost and size-wise. This boat will easily outperform anything else on your list, and is one of Whaler's best-ever models. There's been plenty of discussion on this model elsewhere on the site. Incidentally, a Whaler Rep told me years ago that he thought a 115 was perfect all-around HP for this boat. About 40-42 mph. The Mercury or Yamaha 4 stroke 115 would have to be superb on this model if top speed is not your interest. The Outrage 17, mentioned above, doesn't compare to this boat for big water performance.

For offshore fishing and running in big seas, 6'-8', you want laterally stability first and foremost in a hull. The Montauk and 18 Outrage excel in this characteristic.

Whaletosh posted 11-01-2000 08:41 AM ET (US)     Profile for Whaletosh    
I agree lhg that the Outrage 18/Gaurdian 19 is the best for me. Paying for it is different question. witha trailer and powered with my choice of engines I suspect a new Gaurdian 19 would cost me 35-40 thousand dollars. I could start looking at used Conqests fo that much. One can always dream. Maybe when I finally decide to purchase I will find a decent used Outrage 18.

Sean Bashaw

whalertim posted 11-01-2000 12:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for whalertim  Send Email to whalertim     
I want to go just out of the sound area on my Montauk, however: I have never tried this on my boat before. The waves can get pretty rough in the inlet around Surf City NC. My question is, What can a Montauk take? I know that using common sense is really the best answer in order to stay safe, but I wanted to venture out to do a little troling. I would really like to hear from real sea men as to what I can expect.
Thanks
Tim
Reliant posted 11-01-2000 01:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for Reliant  Send Email to Reliant     
If you are talking about breaking waves, be afraid - be very afraid. Breaking waves contain a surprising amount of power, which grows exponentially with the size of the wave. I swamped a currituck in 8-foot breakers on Lake Michigan in the blink of an eye. My advice is find somebody who's boating skills you respect and TRUST and have them take you out and show you the ropes. Start small and work you way up in terms of wave size.

Pete

B Bear posted 11-05-2000 03:22 AM ET (US)     Profile for B Bear  Send Email to B Bear     
I have recently purchashed a Dauntless 16 with a Honda 90 from the dealer. The engine is within the weight limit. I have put in about 40 hrs since the begining of Sept.
I was told the 4 stroke having different tourque char. would be slowing getting out of the hole. She sits level in the water at rest. She does nose up when given the RPMs to to get up on plane. Once there I can throttle back to 3500-4000 RPM and remaine on plane going about 24 MPH, near the top of the curve 5500 RPM (6000 RPM max) I am running around 35 MPH. I am getting around 5-6 miles per gal. which gives me between a 75 - 90 mile range on a third of a tank. I am very happy with the set up I have now, I would not want to go any faster, I like to see what is in the water ahead of me since I run in the Chesapake Bay and rivers. There are certian RPMs where I feel the need to keep the trim on the engine 3/4 to full down. So at times I feel a little heavy in the stern (I was told by one dealer tht this was due to the notch in the aft where to drian plug is located. I feel that all boat and engine set ups make for different char. in handling. I have looked at the Montauk 17 and I know it's virtues, I choose the Dauntless becuase I know how much a better ride you get with a Vee in a chop, which makes it more inviting for my wife and kids to go out, to me the hull looked to be a hybrid of the classic to address the ride in a chop. After 40 hrs and time to learn my boat I am very happy. She does everything I want her to do including getting through the chop in the bay and at times rivers when the wind picks up. Now, it may be made better by installing a hydrofoil on the engine lower unit. Has anyone done this with an outboard? I had them on my Cleb. 210 WA Fishhawk IO. Otherwise no big deal, the more I go the happier I am. And if I can get my kids to love the water as I do I am even happier.
B Bear posted 11-05-2000 11:32 AM ET (US)     Profile for B Bear  Send Email to B Bear     
I just want to state I nearly read a entire years worth of posts before joining in at 5 am this morning.

First of all I want to Thank Jim for having this Fourm, and to not orphen new Whaler owners.

There are many people out there that do not like the construction (form core (older with open cell, new with closed cell), thin skined) of Whalers in general. Some years are better than others ( at one point they used chopped glass for the hull, now it is hand laid agin). Some dislke the ride.

When looking at the new whalers you can see the orgins in the classic styling. It is as in the old days when you saw a car in the distance and could tell what it was.

As with cars the newer ones have new technology, but a "55" Corvertte and "69" or a "01" Vette is still a Corvette. This is the Same with Whalers it is just a matter of preference.

If it wasn't for my wife, who suggested buying a Whaler, I most likey would have paid less for another good boat.

I guess what I am saying is that I am glad I followed my wifes suggestion. I am Happy the I found a place to join in and ask questions.
And I want to Thank everyone for their understanding.

I was quite excited when I saw the fellow from my Home town of Monterey CA.(1958 to 1984). I ended up in Maryland when I got married after Marine Engineering School.

I hope to be a productive part of this Foum.


kingfish posted 11-05-2000 12:08 PM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     
B Bear -
Welcome! Pleased to have you with us, and there will be a test on Thursday regarding what you read this morning. Seriously, it's a great resource, isn't it?

kingfish

blackdog posted 11-06-2000 09:38 AM ET (US)     Profile for blackdog  Send Email to blackdog     
B Bear- I also have the Dauntless 16í and thought about getting the Honda 4 stroke. I was talked out of it by a couple of dealers, probably because they rather sell the Mercís. I should not have listen to them. I did get the Evinrude 115 that so far runs great, no complaints other than a little oil dripping form the air box. It sounds like your 16íruns about the same out of the hole & cruising as mine with the 2 stroke so you made a good choice with the Honda. I was worried about the weight myself. What prop did they set it up with? I have a 14x17.
B Bear posted 11-06-2000 10:44 AM ET (US)     Profile for B Bear  Send Email to B Bear     
Thank you for the welcome Kingfisher.

Blackdog, The prop I have on the Honda is a alum. 13.75 X 15 Honda, at engine idle, about 800 RPM, with the prop engaged I have a trolling speed ranging from 2.5-3.5 MPH depending on the wind and current. Happy to say this has allowed me to get my first legal stripper in 3 years. I have noticed a spot showing up on the face of the blades near the root. This may be a sign of cavitation I may consider a stainless prop later on, I hear that they have less distortion at higher RPMS.

blackdog posted 11-06-2000 11:46 AM ET (US)     Profile for blackdog  Send Email to blackdog     
SS Prop- I was thinking the same. Kind of leaning away from one. SS has less give if you run aground or hit somthing. Could cause lower unit damage if the prop doesn't give or so I am told.
kingfish posted 11-06-2000 01:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     
Kingfish; no -er. (That will be on the quiz)

bigz posted 11-06-2000 02:58 PM ET (US)     Profile for bigz    
Hey fellers seems we is gittin' slightly t'say th' least off th' topic --- so doesn't be afraid t'start a noo topic in Neo Classics an' o' Perfo'mance on account o' ah see we haf gotten into prop materials! Regards Tom

B Bear posted 11-06-2000 03:20 PM ET (US)     Profile for B Bear  Send Email to B Bear     
Sorry Kingfish ........ don't ask me any names on that test or I'll fail for sure.
Whaletosh posted 11-06-2000 04:32 PM ET (US)     Profile for Whaletosh    
Okay, BigZ I started another thread on the performance topics page.
B Bear posted 11-06-2000 05:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for B Bear  Send Email to B Bear     
To return to to the topic.........
I looked at both the Montauk 17 an the Dauntless 16 when I got the go ahead to buy a new boat. I found at one dearlership the Montauk 17 with a Mercury 90 4 stroke was the same price as the Dautless 16 with a Honda 90 at another dealer. At the second dealer the Montauk was about $2000 less than the Dauntless. All in all they are priced about the same. I seem to feel that the price on the Montauk is based more on the design, reputation, name recognation that it has achived over the years, well deserved. That alone will keep the boat in the Whaler line up for years to come and demand a high price. After all the name Boston Whaler has always brought higher prices in new and older boats.
Other than the hull design both these boats are close in many ways. In LOA the Montauk is 4 incles longer, in draft the Dauntless has 2 inches more. Now for the differences in beam the Dauntless is 11 inches wider, The Dauntless is 350 lb.s heavier, but has a swapped rating of 4200 lb.s to the Montauk's 2000 lb.
I believe the heavier weight, the Vee hull with the reverse chime (that it shares with the Montauk), the wider beam are all there to address the ride in a chop as you know can become a little rough with a twin sponson hull. Doing this is not so much for us of the male gender that like to fish, but to make the boat ride more attractive for women, mostly spouses, after if there is a loan to be made, they cosign. This also explains why there are more features (cup holders, standard swim ladder, more storage, under deck fuel tank). And yet with the center console design that I like and maybe others like me that like to fish.
I had made the choice on my own with her and the kids in mind, but when she went to get the boat with me see saw the Ventura and asked me why I did not get that model.
The answer is she is not with me all the time, and I do like to fish.
She would not go out with me at all if I had gotten the Montauk. She won't let the kids go unless she goes.
I remember reading in the forum how one guy's wife would not sign the loan papers for the Montauk he wanted, becuase she wanted a Ventura becuase it had a nice seat for her, this is the best to my memory.
As for four strokes, they are getting lighter. Right now the Honda 90 or Hondas in general are the heaviest. The new Yamaha and Mercury at the same HP are almost 100 lbs lighter. The Honda has almost the same performance as 115 EFI 2 stroke. The difference right now is the new 4 strokes are new and 4 strokes in general cost almost $3000 more than and equal HP 2 stroke. Like the Montauk the Honda 90 has a proven track record and is nearly considered bulletprooof.
So I concur, Boston Whaler is making boats that the public wants. Classic to Vee hull. I believe in time the prices for the Montauk will become more reasonable and it's sales will increase, maybe not quite as low is $15000, I have seen a new one for $17800 with a trailer and 50 HP Mercury EFI. Let is not forget that the cost of the engine is a major part of the price.
lhg posted 11-06-2000 05:52 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Considering the major specifications, is the Montauk the right boat to compare to a Dauntless 16? Probably not. Only the length is similar.

How about the Classic 18 Outrage as a closer comparison. Beam is the same in both, weight is the same in both. But the 18 Outrage gives you 2 1/2' more length, and tons more sea keeping ability, for these same other identical specs. But then agin, one is an offshore boat and one is an inland water boat. This is the essence of the difference between Classic vs Neo-Classic.

B Bear posted 11-06-2000 06:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for B Bear  Send Email to B Bear     
Quite true. I was only comparing the new Dauntless 16 to a new Montauk 17, a new design to a classic design both of the same year. Also the prices of these two boats are very close. I did not see a new 18 Outrage. I boat normally in the Cheseapake Bay and it's rivers. If I were to boat offshore I would not have considered anything under 20 ft. the bigger the better there. I feel it was fair comparison in the choices I had for a new boat from the whaler lineup for the year 2001 for the boating I will be doing.
Tsuriki BW posted 11-07-2000 10:03 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tsuriki BW  Send Email to Tsuriki BW     
B Bear,

Dealer has 2000 Dauntless 16, 5hrs on 2000 Merc 90 4 stroke. Mooring cover and Bimini top. Eazy loader trailer. "Asking" $25k, may be able to do $23k. What do you think?

Tsuriki

B Bear posted 11-08-2000 09:35 AM ET (US)     Profile for B Bear  Send Email to B Bear     
That sounds like it is in the ballpark.
I'll e-mail you, I found a 1988 18 Outrage with a kicker, top, electronics, and trailer for $13000. Also a used 2000 Dauntless 16 to compare all your options.
Bear
David Reid posted 11-08-2000 05:22 PM ET (US)     Profile for David Reid  Send Email to David Reid     
Ihg, I'd say the classic 18'6" hull fills both the offshore and inland water niches beautifully. No, you won't be mistaken for some Austin Powers style Euro Baby. Yes, she's super at handling seas, comfortable in even heavy chop, but she's been awesome used predominately for inshore fishing shallow marshes and reef structures in and around the S. Louisiana bays. As popular as this hull remains among fans, I understand that BW has now dropped it from their recreational line as they promote their less versatile newer models. You can still order one from the commercial products division, but at a heavy price tag. Anyone looking to spend over $20,000 for a new Whaler hull, especially if fishing is the principal itenerary, really ought to do some serious shopping for a used Classic Outrage 18' or even one of the Neo-Classic(post-1991) Outrage 19's, which use the identical outer hull. Repowered with a new 150 h.p., you still should be able to come in with a Classic at or under $22,000-to-$24,000 all in. As the fall selling season begins in earnest, I've seen several great looking 18's on the market in recent weeks asking $11,000 to $18,000. If "new" is what floats your boat, this route may not suit you. But I note that seldom a week goes by that someone on the water doesn't ask if my 14-year old rig isn't a new boat! Check the several 18's on display in Cetacea and see what I mean.
lhg posted 11-08-2000 05:32 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
I think the above message was meant for B Bear. I already own an 18 Outrage!
B Bear posted 11-08-2000 09:42 PM ET (US)     Profile for B Bear  Send Email to B Bear     
Don't get personal Igh, I am happy you have an 18 and 25 Outrage, but It does not make you any better than anyone else. I am not here looking for a fight. Just enjoy your boats.
Bear
Tsuriki BW posted 11-08-2000 11:14 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tsuriki BW  Send Email to Tsuriki BW     
Woa!. B Bear..

I have tried to re-read this weaving thread. But I think your comment to ihg is off base. I think it might be possible that David might have addressed his reply to the wrong person. Easy to do on this thread.

ihg has provided us with a lot of very good info/insight. I think his reply was only trying to draw attention to a misdirection of Davids post.

Reread, reconsider..

You came across to me in the wrong way/spirit as well as a mistaken understanding.

Dang it, B Bear, what I'm trying to say is I think your comment to ihg was wrong and uncalled for.

Tsuriki BW

B Bear posted 11-09-2000 12:45 AM ET (US)     Profile for B Bear  Send Email to B Bear     
Look guys, I am sorry if I am wrong about this. I won't bash the older classic whaler styles nor the people that love them. I know a few will say the the neo-classics are impure becuase the company had been sold. I know that sometimes this can be for the worse, as with Harley and AMF, and sometimes for the better, as with Jaguar and Ford, I believe the quality is returning to Boston Whaler. They can not afford to fall down on this, there is too much compatition out there today. Edgewater is founded by an ex BW engineer, Scout, Proline, Mako, Grady Whites all make very good boats. If it simply a matter of styling, it is only a matter of predjuce, you either like it or you don't. Any manufacturer is going to keep making what sells, for example the wonderful Dauntless 14, after a few years if there are not enough sales the model is dropped from the lineup.
I had tried to back up from all of this when I agreed with Ihg that his comparsson was "quite true" between the Dauntlss 16 and the 18 Outrage. And in keeping with the topic I suggested you too should compare these boats.
In reading through the Forum at times I feel as if I have to defend my choice in buying a new 2001 Dauntless 16. The Outrage is still in the line up but starting at 21 feet. If I wanted an older one I would have pursued one. So why would that message be for me? As Ihg noted he already has an 18 Outrage, as for me, I already ahave a Dauntless 16.
Sorry Ihg, it was all a misunderstandng on my part. Maybe I am too new at this stuff and from now on will keep my opinons to myself til I get a thicker skin.
My apoligies to the Forum, esp. to Ihg.
Bear
Tsuriki BW posted 11-09-2000 01:19 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tsuriki BW  Send Email to Tsuriki BW     
B Bear, Good evening, how are you?

Maybe we can get David to clarify who he intended his post directed to. In the mean time, lets enjoy the forum, the knowledge we get here from all, and the boats we have whatever the vintage.

Tsuriki

Tsuriki BW posted 11-09-2000 01:28 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tsuriki BW  Send Email to Tsuriki BW     
P.S. Also still looking for other Dauntless owners per previous post.

Tsuriki

Clark Roberts posted 11-09-2000 08:14 AM ET (US)     Profile for Clark Roberts  Send Email to Clark Roberts     
Hey Whaler Heads, you know we all love our boats! Boats may be analgous to women in many ways... eg... I think my wife is the most beautiful woman in the world and I realize that others may no agree (that choice thing again)! And I hope others think their wives are the most beautiful, etc..etc... If I think a friends wife is ugly, I wouldn't tell him so... just not the right thing to do and serves no purpose at all... Now, on the other hand if I think she's beautiful, I'll tell him.. hummmmm hope I don't get into trouble doing this,,, heh, heh... think about it and Happy Whalin' ... Clark... The Old Man and the Sea
Whaletosh posted 11-09-2000 09:45 AM ET (US)     Profile for Whaletosh    
I guess I opened this can of worms. Too bad I didn't state my thoughts more clearly. I really should have been more carefull about using the term offshore. I really don't want to take my whaler further offshore, but urther up and down shore. For a variety of reasons the only fishing that I will ever do in the Great Lakes will be realativaly close to shore form almost on the beach to less than 4 statute miles out , maybe 5. The problem with my 13 Sport and the Dauntless 13 I had before is the pounding I took. sure I could easily troll up shore for spring Browns but the ride back would be miserable; except on those rare days when the lake is calm.

After reading the thoughts on this and other threads I have narrowed my list down to 4 boats. Thanks for all the input.

Sean Bashaw

Whaletosh posted 11-09-2000 09:47 AM ET (US)     Profile for Whaletosh    
I guess I opened this can of worms. Too bad I didn't state my thoughts more clearly. I really should have been more carefull about using the term offshore. I really don't want to take my whaler further offshore, but urther up and down shore. For a variety of reasons the only fishing that I will ever do in the Great Lakes will be realativaly close to shore form almost on the beach to less than 4 statute miles out , maybe 5. The problem with my 13 Sport and the Dauntless 13 I had before is the pounding I took. sure I could easily troll up shore for spring Browns but the ride back would be miserable; except on those rare days when the lake is calm.

After reading the thoughts on this and other threads I have narrowed my list down to 4 boats. Thanks for all the input.

Sean Bashaw

Tom Byrum posted 11-10-2000 12:06 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom Byrum  Send Email to Tom Byrum     
Its lhg not ihg. Larry starts with an L.
Ed Stone posted 11-11-2000 09:53 PM ET (US)     Profile for Ed Stone  Send Email to Ed Stone     
I have to voice my opinion on the 17Outrage.
After reading comments from the previous
forum I had thought I bought a bad Whaler.
Not true.All of my fishing was Offshore
and there was no bad opinions on my part.
I could count on one hand how many times
I got wet while operating the 17 Outrage.
I also liked the large center console,
built in fishbox,stern seats,raw water
wash down,and live well.
The 17 was discontiued after 1999.
Only made now in the CPD of Whaler.
Ed Stone
David Reid posted 11-12-2000 07:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for David Reid  Send Email to David Reid     
Looks like while we were out of town for several days, this thread got into a bit of a misunderstanding due to my last post. Sorry, guys! Ihg, your post of 11/6/00, in comparing the classic 18 and Dauntless 16 seemed to suggest that one was for offshore, the other for inshore use. In my follow-up post of 11/8/00, I was just trying to say (ineffectively, apparently) that the 18'6" Outrage hull serves both uses pretty fine, as you no doubt know from experience. It's a testamony to the original design's versatility that the new company owners have each in their turn kept this hull in the line-up for so long. The CPD version in Cetacea looks incredible. The rest of my crowing on the 18 was aimed at those out there still thinking about which rig to buy. If my Austin Powers slur hit some of ya'll the wrong way, well, appologies all around. A poor attempt at humor. Guess some of us anachronists probably ought to leave this "Neo" site to B/W's "Neo" fans, of which there are plenty. Hope everyone enjoys their toys, folks! That's probably all that really counts here. Ed, I second your favorable comments on the O/R 17, having spent a good bit of time on and around a friend's 17 over the past six or seven years. From shallow marsh to well out in the Gulf, this rig does a nice job.
lhg posted 11-13-2000 01:13 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Like David, I just returned from a 4 day trip, to find this. Since I assumed David
already knew I had an 18 Outrage, I assumed he wouldn't be directing his comments to me, but rather someone who was considering several different BW purchase options. From the above comments by B Bear, I assumed David was directing his comments to him as a possible purchaser of a BW, since B Bears' post immediately preceeded Davids', and talked about finding a used 18 Outrage.
B Bear posted 11-14-2000 12:15 AM ET (US)     Profile for B Bear  Send Email to B Bear     
I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I directed that post to Tsuriki BW, since he asked about the price of a Dauntless 16. I added the 18 Outrage to keep in line with the topic, which was considered a excellent alteritive to a new Whaler by more than one person, and to show that older Whalers in what was considered by many to be in the best years of Whaler production were still availble at a decent price. To keep the thread from becoming distracted I told him I would e-mail him the information for a comparison. I had felt that David was just trying to support lhg's assertion the the 18 Outrage was an excellent boat, and that is why it was driected to lhg. Except for the remark on new styling, it was a very good testimonial. That is why I could not understand why it could have been directed to me, I had never indicated I wanted another boat. Twentyone years at sea has made turned me into a Salty Dog.
Bear

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