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ContinuousWave: Post-Classic Whalers
What is the "Basic" difference between..
|Author||Topic: What is the "Basic" difference between..|
posted 12-13-2000 02:23 AM ET (US)
the Dauntless class and the Outrage class Whalers..length aside..
posted 12-13-2000 10:22 AM ET (US)
Dauntless center consoles are medium or modified v-hulls while the Outrage is a deep v-hull. The former Dauntless 17 and 20 dual console series were of the deep v-hull design. Don
posted 12-13-2000 03:06 PM ET (US)
Can you explain the difference between the hull designs (angle, performance)
posted 12-13-2000 03:28 PM ET (US)
T, the difference is the angle of the deadrise (the angle of the bottom in relation to the horizontal waterline) that determines a medium vee vs. deep vee hull; a deep vee having a greater or higher numerically value angle. Normally the deadrise is greater toward the bow (65 degrees) to lesser at the stern (21 degrees); this description would be for a deep vee. A medium vee would have less angle or lower numbers. Usually the boat mfrs only give the deadrise at the stern.
As BW classifies the boats Dauntless is lake/inshore boats while the Outrage is offshore boats. Don
posted 12-13-2000 09:15 PM ET (US)
For what it's worth, if anybody's really interested, from a conversation I had with Bob Dougherty (I was lucky enought to meet him at a NMMA trade show back in 1991) I learned the following regarding his 2nd generation (now Classic) V-Outrages:
The very first model, the 1978 Outrage 20, used a 12 degree "modified" vee. This later proved to be somewhat hard riding, and the hull was dropped after 1984 in favor of a new 20, which was really a shortened-at-the-transom 22 Outrage.
The next boat, the 1979 22 Outrage, used an 18 degree vee, as does the 1985 & later Outrage 20.
Next came the 1981 25 Outrage, also with the 18 degree vee.
Then the 1983 18 Outrage, where he went back to a shallower 16 degree vee for more stability in the smaller, less beamy hull.
I believe the 27 also has the 18 degree vee.
The newer Whalers, beginning with the 21 & 23 Walkarounds, went even deeper with a 20 degree vee. I believe this is still being used by the current Outrage/Conquest design team today.
I hope my memory is serving me correctly on the above figures from Dougherty. From what I understand, the deeper the vee the more power the hull requires for planning and to maintain speed, the more likely the boat is to need the assist of trim tabs, and the less lateral stability the boat has. Also, the bigger the wake, since wake size indicates the amount of energy(fuel) being consumed in moving the boat. (the wake is wasted energy, and indicates the efficiency of the hull at a given speed)
There seems to be an attitude that the new deeper vee's are a better and more recent in design than earlier Whalers, providing, correctly, a softer ride into a chop. This is not necessarily true, as the military continues to prove by passing over the newer hulls in favor of the older ones. Greater stability and fuel economy must be more important to them than ride into a chop. The earlier boats were simply done an a DIFFERENT design philosophy, one where other objectives were primary over the deep vee concept. Any buyer of a Whaler now has more choices between new and old, based upon what one's boating priorities are. It is obvious that current market research is showing that for most recreational boaters, soft ride, conventional looks and creature comforts are the overwhelming concern that they must address in order to accomplish sales. Women, both in boating and voting, are continuing to show us they won't be ignored any longer!!
posted 12-13-2000 10:21 PM ET (US)
If I might add something to lhg's comments: I believe that the steeper the deadrise in the stern, the greater the hull will have a tendency to hunt (shift directions) at low, non-plaining speeds.
posted 12-14-2000 07:11 AM ET (US)
Another comment about vee-hulls:
The deep-vee design really came to prominence with the racing boat Moppie, a Bertram design that won the Miami-Nassau offshore powerboat race in the early 1960's.
This design has an almost constant deadrise. The deep vee runs from bow to stern. This allows excellent ride in rough seas, but it takes more power to plane. For offshore racing this style has become dominant.
More info on Hunt and deep-Vee:
posted 12-14-2000 07:14 AM ET (US)
Re Dauntless -vs- Outrage:
The Outrage boats have higher freeboard. The Dauntless series tend to have lower freeboard, more like the original Whaler "sleds".
The Outrage style boat was conceived as a boat that could go offshore and fish in the ocean.
The Dauntless style boats are designed for inshore use.
posted 12-14-2000 08:26 AM ET (US)
According to Ray Hunt's design organization, their latest recreational boat creation, the fabulous Hunt 33, has a 20 degree deadrise at the stern, not the traditional 23.5. The Hunt 33 has wide chines for stability.
I agree with Larry and Peter on their comments, my '97 Dauntless 17, a deep vee hull, needed lots of HP, should have had trim tabs and wandered alot at slow speed. My current Montauk has none of these traits. Don
posted 12-14-2000 10:02 AM ET (US)
Larry's comments on women changing the market focus of boating. I just read an article in the latest issue of Great Lakes Boating. The article stated that women are now involved in 60% of all boat sales. Women have different priorities than men and as a general rule a higher desire for comfort. This desire for comfort is based on very real biological factors and on physcologically programmmed factors. With the increased influence that women are having on boating Boston Whaler must respond, just like the rest of the community.
As many of you recall, I am currently mulling over the purchase of a new Whaler. I love my wife and want her to spend as much time on the boat with me as she can. If she is more comfortable on a Dauntless or Ventura 16 than a Montauk then I will take that into consideration. Ultimately I think I would be best served with a classic Outrage or Revenge, but finding one may be the problem.
posted 12-14-2000 11:05 AM ET (US)
Whaletosh, in 1998 I bought a '97 Dauntless 17, dual console bowrider model. I really wanted a center console boat but I considered the family's input on what they wanted in a boat and that excluded a CC boat. Well, a new boat is like a swimming pool, the first year everyone wants to use it but then the second year and thereafter it's a forgotten toy. I was left to boating sans the family. I promptly sold it and bought the Montauk.
If you have experience that shows your wife/family likes the boating life style beyond the first year then consider your wife's comfort, otherwise get what YOU want. Don
posted 12-15-2000 03:14 PM ET (US)
first I keep forgetting on all of my posts to lexplain my moniker. whaletosh blends my passion for what I consider to be the best examples of two of my interests Boston whalers and Macintosh computers. Sean is my real name, I just forget to mention it.
I have a very long history of my wife's going boating with me. She likes to go for rides, fishing, slow cruises, smimming, etc. She can pilot the boat, including docking procedures as long as the wind or current aren't excesive. She doesn't mind getting wet loading the boat if needed.
The only time she refuses to go with me is trolling on the Great Lakes. She is prone to sea sickness at trolling speeds. All is well if we are moving on plane. Patches, wrist bands, and Dramamine all help but being sick is no fun. This is one very important reason why I am leaning towards a classic hull like a Montauk. The V models like the Daulntelss will roll more. My wife will probably never be able to go salmon/trout fishing with me on Lake Michigan but a Montauk would make the trip up and down the channel less stressfull on her.
posted 12-15-2000 04:21 PM ET (US)
Sean, I bought my 73` `16 Currituck last summer on Gull Lake, near you. Have you ever heard of it? Lots of money people and a Whaler dealership on this small lake. Lots of Classic Whalers in awsome shape, 20-30 years old and still look like new! I think because of the small lake, freshwater, and the people have lots of money? Regards-Jack Graner.
posted 12-18-2000 09:03 AM ET (US)
Not only do I know of Gull Lake, but I make a point to spend at least 3 days a summer on it. Michigan is blessed with thousands of lakes and rivers, plus ports on 4 of the Great Lakes. Gull Lake and Lake Charlevoix are my two favorites, but with some many others it is hard to choose on weekends where to go.
Next summer I plan on getting Jim a picture of one of the truly rarest Whalers, a Harpoon Weekender. According to my research only 150 of these weekend sailboats were ever made. One is moored at the Gull Lake Yacht club.
The Whaler dealership on Gull Lake is Laughing Gull Marina.
Rick Venner manages the place with the help of his father Rich, and his office assistant Ann. If you live in the lower Michigan or Nortwest Ohio, Northern Indianna, or Northeastern IL I and are in the market for a new Whaler give Rick a call. I bought my 13 Sport from him for $500 less than anybody else in Michigan. Rick doesn't have many used Whalers, but he would be willing to help find one. Rick also is quite knowledgable on Whalers, he has sold them for 15 years and I belive his father used to own the dealership.
P.S. I am planning on selling my 2000 13 Sport next August. It is a nice little boat but was a temporary purchase to get me through while living in a rental house with limmited storage space.
posted 12-18-2000 09:22 AM ET (US)
see my post on the trips forum for more info on gull lake
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