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Author Topic:   Question for Larry (LHG)
Whaletosh posted 07-03-2001 04:46 PM ET (US)   Profile for Whaletosh  
Larry,

I have always understood and appreciated you point. But, let pose a hypothetical for you. Lets assume you did most of your boating on inland lakes and rivers, and occasionally took a short cruise or near shore fishing trip on Lake Michigan. Would you feel that my Dauntless 14, or a Dauntless 16/18/22 would be a decent rig for that intended use?

I think what most people are confused about is how to properly define their needs. I know I did. Until I started asking question on this forum i was convinced that I needed an offshore boat. I know that I didnít need one. I fish near shore in the spring and fall on Lake Michigan. and a couple of perch fishing trips out of South Haven in the summer. Maybe, one trip out with my wife for a mini-cruise up the coast. Other than that we spend most of our time on inland lakes swimming, running around, and pan fishing. Offshore capabilities donít matter under these conditions. Easy trailing, low fuel costs, easy storage, are some important factors though. One certainly gets that with a Montauk or a classic Outrage 18, but the Outrage 18s are hard to come by. Newer Outrages are more offshore capable but they a re much more to tow around, feed fuel, and store.


Just interested in you opinion taking this into consideration.

Sean

lhg posted 07-09-2001 07:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Sean - Sorry to take so long to respond to your note. Have been on a 5 day vacation and just returned.

I think your question/discussion is accurate, and one's intended boating use needs to be defined, as you have done very well. Everyone, probably most, does not need an "offshore capable" Boston Whaler, which is exactly what the Company has been addressing, with considerable success, with the Dauntless Series. Nor would I consider the Classic 13 - 17 Sport models offshore boats.
The Montauk seems to be the perfect all around compromise. It is at home for your described needs, and also light offshore duties.

So, for one with your needs, and wanting a new boat, the Dauntless series certainly makes sense, particularly if you like the lines and creature comforts. I prefer the look of the classics, and for your description, would probably look for a real nice 15 or 17 instead, as an alternative to a new Whaler, but that is purely personal. And many simply do not want to buy a used boat, preferring new instead.

The other thing I have learned about boating, is that needs change, particularly as one ages! So unless you want to do a lot of trading, a more multi-use boat is an advantage. So one needs to be careful on that score. In other terms, this could be called the 2-foot-itis thing.

This past week, I happened to have run my 18 Outrage, among others, out to Beaver Island, 33 miles out in the center of upper Lake Michigan, from Charlevoix. At the launching ramp, I spotted an 18 Dauntless being retrieved. The guy had put his Dauntless and car on the ferry boat to get it out there. Considering the weather conditions at the time, the Dauntless simply was not equipped or rigged for such a trip. Later that afternoon, we ran the 18 Outrage back, running in 4-5ft seas, and out of sight of land. It was a relatively easy trip, for a twin engine boat equipped with the Mills canvas system. My point is this - when I bought the 18 Outrage, I had no idea I would be using it for purposes like this 15 years later, but it was a broad enough based hull design to accomodate my changing interests and needs. And it had the equipment options for using the boat in many different purposes.

Whaletosh posted 07-10-2001 09:03 AM ET (US)     Profile for Whaletosh    
Thanks Larry.

I pretty much figured this would be your response. I can't say that I can find fault with any of your statements or logic.

I understand you sentiments about the Montauk and classic 15s. I debated betweena Montauk, Dauntless 14, and a Dauntless 16 for quite a while. Ultimately, I wanted a built in gas tank, a 4-stroke motor, would fit into my garage. The Dauntless 14 fit the bill, and was several thousand dollars less than a new Montauk or Dauntless 16. I looked around for a used Montauk, I couldn't find any that had the combination that I wanted. Either they were old and needed lots of refurbishing or were so new that trading from a 2 stroke to a new 4 stroke was not an option. I could have lived without the built in gas tank, but not the 4-stroke motor. I am never going to own a normally aspirated 2-stroke again. Just my opinion, but after owning just one 4-stroke motor I am sold on them.

Truth be known I will probably get a more offshore capable Whaler sometime down the road, probably 7-10 years from now. My Dauntless is the right choice for me at this point, and will be for several years. It may continue to be the right choice for a lot longer time than that. One really can't predict the future, only roll the dice and see what happens.

Trips like you made to Beaver Island are what may drive my decision to get an Outrage (Modern or Classic), Conquest, or Revenge. Eventually, when I am 55, 15 years down the road I want to retire to the northern area of Michigan's lower peninsula. At that point I will have greater desire to make offshore runs. Until then I will be staying near shore and on inland lakes. I have been boating for 10 years now, so I have good handle on what I will be using my boat for.

If you were at Charlevoix and surrounding area for the last 5 days you couldn't help but have a good time. The area around Little Traverse Bay and Charlevoix is my favorite area in Michigan. Lake Charlevoix is my favorite inland lake. I would dearly love to live on Lake Chalervoix. The Traverse City area is nice as well but is getting more crowded and expensive all the time.

Thanks for all you input over the past year. If you make it up to the West Michigan are again, let me know. I would like to look at your boat. More specifically, I still plan on being at St. Joe/South Haven/Holland/Grand Haven area the last week of August and the first week of September. Ventura 16 and Jim H are mulling over coming over as well. Maybe Kingfish might come over as well. South Haven seems like the logical choice as Ray has a slip there.

Thanks again,

Sean

dgp posted 07-10-2001 08:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for dgp  Send Email to dgp     
Whaletosh, not to nitpick but just to correct your statement "I am never going to own a normally aspirated 2-stroke again", all current production 2 stroke and four stroke outboards are normally aspirated or more correctly naturally aspirated. This means that the engine cylinder is filled with fresh air naturally by atmospheric pressure aided by the vacuum caused by the downward movement of the piston.
The opposite of natural aspiration is a pressurized air intake system better known as turbocharging or supercharging.
hardensheetmetal posted 07-10-2001 10:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for hardensheetmetal  Send Email to hardensheetmetal     
IHG and Sean -

I agree with both your points of view, I mentioned earlier that I had been looking for an 18 Outrage to replace my 22 Revenge, then I started taking a closer look at a 16 dauntless, then an 18. I think one needs to consider how the boat is really going to be used, wrather than the perception others may have of the boat (kind of the whole huge SUV that never goes offroad thing). When I traded up from a 17 Newport to my 22, I was thrilled, I could not believe the difference, and boy was my wife happy with the ride. Now (five years later)I find that I used the boat less, because of its size, we were less likely to just cruise up to a nearby resturaunt for lunch than we were with the smaller boat.(we did go on some longer trips though) I also find that I miss the feeling of a stand up, center console boat. Thus my search for an 18 OR. Now that I have seen the Dauntless, there is no question in my mind that the boat is made for cruising and comfort. It is definatetly not intended as a full on battle wagon (although there is a used 18 Daunt. on Boattrader with a T-top that looks pretty cool) If I go down to the marina and see 3- 4 foot chop, I go to the boat, turn on the radio, and open a beer, that is my boating experience for the day, and I love it.

Dan

Whaletosh posted 07-11-2001 11:49 AM ET (US)     Profile for Whaletosh    
DGP,

Nitpick away,one only learns of a mistake when brought to one's attention.

So, let me restate. I am never again going to own a 2-stroke motor that isn't compliant with the EPA's 2006 standards for outboard motors. By the time I get ready to replace "Whaletosh" I bet EFI 4-stroke motors will be the norm.

Bigshot posted 07-12-2001 10:57 AM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
Well I never gave this much thought but I guess the ficht is not naturally aspirated being a high pressure pump squirts the fuel.
Whaletosh posted 07-12-2001 11:20 AM ET (US)     Profile for Whaletosh    
Bigshot,

Ficht is normally or naturally aspirated; meanining the airflow into the combustion chamber is accomplished by the vacuum or pressure developed by up and down movement of the pistons. In a 4-stoke it is all vacuum during the intake stroke. In a 2 stroke some of it is due to pressure and some due to vacumm. This applied to Ficht, Opti-max, HDPI, and "conventional" 2-stroke.

The opposite is a engine that is aspirated via a pressure source such as a turbo or supercharger. The air is under pressure before it enters the engine. tho whole idea being to get more air into the engine. than would be possible with natural aspiration.

This was DGP's point, and he was correct in calling me on it.

Sean

Bigshot posted 07-12-2001 11:31 AM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
Gotcha! I guess if it had to do with the gas than ANY EFI would not be natural. Since it is the air... makes sense.
Whaletosh posted 07-12-2001 11:53 AM ET (US)     Profile for Whaletosh    
couple of small notes about my prior post:

In a two stoke vacumm is used to get the air into the crankcase, then during the downstroke pressure developes pushing the air into the combustion chamber.

When talking about engines aspiration is used to describe how the air is put into the engine. It doesn't deal with how the fuel is delivered. Ficht, Opti-Max, HPDI are like multipoint EFI on a car; an injector puts the fuel directly into the combustion chamber, or very close to the intake valve. But, most or all of the air for the combustion is still drawn in via the vacumm of the engine.

As a side note multipoint EFI in automotive engines is an easier task than DFI in 2-stoke outboards. The injector can be placed in the intake manifold so that it squirts fuel directy into the intake opening. The incoming air will atomize and disperse the fuel quite well. Plus this can be doen thoughout the intake stroke; so the fuel can be delivered in a longer time frame. This means lower flow rates and less pressure. On a DFI 2-stoke the fuel can't be injected into the engine until after the exhaust port is closed. This leaves very little time to get the fuel in and atomized. I belive this to be the Achille's heal, and the root cause of the problems with DFI 2-strokes. Done well they are great motors; but the engineering is more difficult.

EFI, multipoint and throttle body, on 4-strokes is a proven technology that has made cars and trucks very reliable. Turn the key and they start. I believe that this is the furure of outboards as well. Look at the Suzuki EFIs. Most reports on then are that they are truly turn key starting, and that is with throttle body injection. The new EFIs 4-stokes from Yamaha, Mercury, and Honda are going to be the same. Sure there will be problems, but my guess is that they will be far quicker to be solved and won't be so catastrophic.

This is all my opinion. Only time will tell if I am right. Heck, I have been known to be wrong.

Sean

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