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Author Topic:   Some new Whaler pricing
lhg posted 02-11-2002 06:42 PM ET (US)   Profile for lhg  
Here is some pricing recently seen at a Dealership: (no trailers)

180 Dauntless, 135 Merc Optimax:
Boat & rigging: 24,900
Engine: 9100
Total: $34,000

210 Outrage, 175 Merc Optimax:
Boat & rigging: 28,600
Engine: 11,400
Total: $40,000

290 Outrage, twin 225 Merc Optimax:
Boat & rigging: 99,500
Engines: 25,700
Total: $125,000

In comparing the the 18 Dauntless with the 21 Outrage, I would say the 21 Outrage is well worth the additional $3700 price.

Ferdinando posted 02-11-2002 08:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for Ferdinando  Send Email to Ferdinando     
lhg:

Isn't the difference 6 grand?????????

Fred

Ventura16 posted 02-11-2002 08:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for Ventura16  Send Email to Ventura16     
The difference in just the prices of the boats (no power) is $3700. I totally agree with Larry...the Outrage 210 is way more boat for the (relatively) small amount of extra $$. Hard to believe that they will sell many Dauntless 180's at that price.

Tom

lhg posted 02-11-2002 08:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Fred - I was talking just the price on the boats. The rest of the differential is in the engine.
Zurowski posted 02-12-2002 12:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for Zurowski  Send Email to Zurowski     
I have just paid $70,000 for a 2002 230 Outrage, did I pay too much? incl: twin merc 135 opti-max, T-top, trailer, Leaning post, bow pulpit & windless.

I also need some ideas on the type of canvas options for this boat.

Thanks,

lhg posted 02-12-2002 01:41 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Well, you have $18,200 worth of engines, the trailer is probably about $3500 max, so that leaves $48,300 for boat and rigging. Since the new 21 Outrage is approximately $28,600.,
that you means you paid another $20,000., or 70% more, for 2 foot itis. You'll have to decide, but it sounds like a lot to me. I am not familiar with the 23 Outrage pricing.

I remember well what the difference was, in 1989, from a 22 Outrage to 25 Outrage. I had originally put down a deposit on a 22, then switched a week later to the 25. The 25 was $5000 more than the 22 back then. That was just for the boat, configured identically. But there was more cost, as the 25 required a bigger trailer, and larger engines also.

Bigshot posted 02-12-2002 02:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
He's probably got $10k in options. hate to see what Whaler charges for T-top, leaning post, and windlass. Was $70k out the door or did you add tax, freight and title to the package? I saw a 23 leftover for $59 but it had a single and probably no trailer so I think you are in the ballpark.

What did that guy pay for that Concept last summer? Like $100,000 and that was a 26 or 28'.

jimh posted 02-12-2002 03:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
It must be these $45,000 GMC Suburban MSRP stickers I have been looking at, but somehow the idea that a new 21-foot Outrage only costs $40,000 is starting to seem attractive to me!

Peter posted 02-12-2002 04:36 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
My impression from seeing the 210 in person is that the new 210 Outrage is configured to be cheaper than the 21 Outrage it replaces. It doesn't have features like a stand-up compartment in the console, among other things (not that that was necessarily a good thing on a boat with an LOA less than 21'). It would be interesting to see the price difference between the 210 and the former 21.
caterboat posted 02-13-2002 07:02 AM ET (US)     Profile for caterboat  Send Email to caterboat     
Does anyone know about the 210 ventura? This seems to be a boat they are pushing in the east. Any price thoughts? One more question, how do you feel with the outrage or ventura off shore 40- 50 mies? Thanks for your insite.
SWarren posted 02-13-2002 09:03 AM ET (US)     Profile for SWarren  Send Email to SWarren     
At the boat show in Greenville SC, the searay dealer said the new 170 would be less than the montauk they had for sale with a 4 stroke 90 for 29,000. He said it would be a package price like the 13' for people to buy whalers at a reasonable price. Its a shame they have to compete with the sea pro, sea hunt and key west on price these days. I guess it gets harder and harder to sell quality every day.
Bigshot posted 02-13-2002 04:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
FYI!

2001 Whaler Dauntless 18 w/ 135 Optimax. Boat has never seen water and is brand new with warranty (engine has never been turned over). Complete package with trailer. Retail on rig is over $37,000, asking $32,000. Boat is located in Massachusetts.
Selling for a friend who won this package in a tournament. contact me at slamdancecharter@hotmail.com

lhg posted 02-13-2002 05:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Steve - That 29M price on that Montauk is what could only be called a "Boat Show Ripoff". Jack up the listed price, so they can give you a "boat show deal".

I was just quoted $8000 for a 2002 17' Alert, and $6500 for a Merc 4 stroke 90. So that adds up to $14500. So lets see, the TOTAL difference between the Alert and the Montauk is a bow rail, console, RPS & front cooler seat. $14,500 for those 4 items? Ridiculous.

Dealers that operate like that are really hurting the reputation of honest people in the boating business. Maybe Enron owns that Dealership!

Caterboat - it doesn't surprise me at all that Dealers are pushing the 21 Ventura. First of all, Venturas in general are real slow sellers, not popular with the "Whaler" type of buyer, and don't hold their value very well either. A Dealer once told me he "couldn't give them away". Second, this boat is built on the old, oversized & overweight 21 Outrage hull, now discontinued. So that same is probably true for this 21 Ventura - soon to be discontinued. Although the new 210 Outrage hull has overtones and shapes of a Bayliner, it is much smaller and more appropriately sized. This will probably become the hull for the 21 Ventura also. I think the 23 Outrage Hull is next to go. The same hulled 23 Conquest has already been dropped.

Taylor posted 02-13-2002 05:56 PM ET (US)     Profile for Taylor  Send Email to Taylor     
Yikes. Are these US dollars, or is it some other demonination? You know, even living as I do in the middle Microsoft Millionaireville (sample quote: "he's not even worth 50 million") I sometimes wonder where the money to pay these sort of prices comes from. That used boat is looking really sweet.
FISHNFF posted 02-13-2002 09:52 PM ET (US)     Profile for FISHNFF  Send Email to FISHNFF     
FYI

Those interested in building your own "Montauk", ask the dealer about the bare hull Alert 17 (tiller-steer). I got mine in 1998 for $4795. If you are going to build a "Montauk", what do you need the side console and other equipment for? Price should be about $5500 now. Sure is a lot nicer starting place to build upon.

SWarren posted 02-14-2002 10:55 AM ET (US)     Profile for SWarren  Send Email to SWarren     
In the dealers defense it had an aluminum float on trailer, a bimini top with ss rails on a slide rail, swim platform and cushions on the helm seat. That said it is still a lot of money. I bought a 3 year old 1990 13 sport with 40 yamaha, that was a tender for 4500 in 1993, and sold it in 95 for 5000, way to cheap. I should have kept it I could probably sell it for even more now.
tabasco posted 02-14-2002 12:35 PM ET (US)     Profile for tabasco  Send Email to tabasco     
Hey lhg-
Give me the name & Tel. number of that Mercury dealer selling new 2002 -90HP 4 stokes for $6,500..... did that include controlls & installation
Bigshot posted 02-14-2002 01:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
Lauderdale Marine has new 100hp Yamaha 4's for $6,850 I believe.
andygere posted 02-14-2002 02:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
For what it's worth, I think listed or advertised prices for new boats are irrelevant. It's just like negotiating on the purchase of a new car: Dealer cost from factory+profit=price paid. You are negotiating on the dealer's profit, and if the dealer doesn't give up enough of it, you buy somewhere else. The tough part is finding out the dealer invoice price, which is much easier for new cars.
sorcerer posted 02-14-2002 03:17 PM ET (US)     Profile for sorcerer    
For what it's worth here is what information I have regarding some of these post.

Average price on a 4 stroke Yamaha 100 hp is in the $7500 range in the NE, no controls or rigging.

The Mercury 2002 90hp 4 stroke is in the area of $8000 discounted to around $7500, again no controls or rigging.

The Whaler RPS retails around $1100, the new standard console $2500, Bow rail $390, the Front cushion plus cooler $375, all the misc. items which come with a packaged Montauk would add another $1400 (these prices are just approximates some higher some lower). In other words to make an apple to apple comparison $14,000 would be the approximate cost to duplicate a 170 Montauk to an Alert equipped the same way. Add the motor, trailer, shipping and dealer prep. Your in the low to mid $20 thousand dollar range.

Seems sort of a silly exercise to save a few thousand on a Montauk which comes with out any work to be performed ready to roll between $24 to $26 thousand depending on the dealer and engine selected.

lhg posted 02-14-2002 03:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Tabasco - Bass Pro Shop Outdoor World sells the Mercs for those prices. I think the nearest one to you is Baltimore MD. Installation and controls about $250 extra.

If you can install yourself, or know a general marine shop who will handle it for you and take the delivery, have an engine shipped in from out-of state, without sales tax. If you're going to do that, try Sundance Marine in Ft Lauderdale, 954-522-2800. Ask for Joe or Scott, and tell them I sent you!

You can also rent an engine hoist for about $30/day, and bolt it on yourself. You will need Merc's screw-in (top of flywheel) lifting eye. They're about $60.

Bigshot posted 02-14-2002 04:35 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
I do not mount my own engines even though I am a handy person. It is not that it is hard, it just aint worth the time and aggrevation(F/G itchies) for $2-300. Controls can be had on E-Bay for under $150 new and same with props. You need the wire harness and tach from dealer. New tachs(modern 2000 year+) are far and few on E-Bay. I agree with Larry(again) that you can buy out of state and save some major $$$. You might want to check Delaware being you live in mD...no sales tax either.
DCPeters posted 02-16-2002 04:51 PM ET (US)     Profile for DCPeters  Send Email to DCPeters     
My local boat show was this weekend.

Nothing larger than an 18'Whaler, but Many large SeaRays were to be found! Very disappointing, for my targetted (some say myopic) perspective. Only thing similar to what I'm focussing on was a ~228 Seafarer w/T top Grady with 225 yama 4 str on Grady Drive at ~60-70K. Not far $$ from the Conquest.

Pricing there was as follows:

Several dealers offering show special 13s at $9500 net (after "discounts of 5%). These with 40 elpto, trailer,complete.

170 Montauk 2002 asking a special $22K for fully configured with stern seat, front rail, range tank (steel 24 gal? under pilot seat) swim platform, trailer and freight (list at ~28K) 90 ELPTO (ps hull looked the same)

Ventura 18 2002 with 130 HONDA 4 stroke. base boat 25636, bow rail 373, under gunnel rod storage 373, ski pylon 406, bimini top with boot to match the blue graphics (harpoon) 982, freight 595. 28364 list for boat; honda at 11195 makes 43412 list. Show special at 35K

Another Ventura with 135 optimax a $41K list at ~$34K.

A Daunt 18, ~41K list at $32.5K ask

16 Dauntless at $24100.

lhg posted 02-17-2002 05:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Tabasco - Here's some even better Merc 2002 model pricing for you, from edsmarinesuperstore.com in VA:

90HP 4-stroke $6000

Merc carbed 2 strokes:

75HP $4400
90HP $4700
150Hp $7000
200HP $8200

They'll ship to you.

DC - those boat show special prices for the 13 Sport package are not a good deal. I'm seeing this same rig, 40Hp Merc, trailer, for $7999.

tbyrne posted 02-18-2002 09:46 AM ET (US)     Profile for tbyrne    
LHG,

$250 for installation and controls? I can't believe that! A Yamaha multifunction tach runs $350 - add to that a key switch, binnacle control, throttle & shift cables, and a wire harness, and you are well over $500 for parts alone. And here in the Northeast, labor runs to $73/hr. I have been pricing motors this winter, and regardless of brand, the average price of controls and installation has ranged between $750 and $1200. While I realize that the Northeast runs higher than down south, I just can't believe $250.

tbyrne posted 02-18-2002 09:49 AM ET (US)     Profile for tbyrne    
P.S., LHG, where have you seen a 2002 Sport 13 with 40 hp 4-stroke for $7999? Nauset Marine in Orleans, MA was looking for $10,000+ for that package last summer.
SuburbanBoy posted 02-18-2002 12:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for SuburbanBoy  Send Email to SuburbanBoy     
Tohatsu 70hp, 3 cylinder, oil injection, carbed, $4,300 everything included (controls, tach, tilt/trim gauge, etc.). If you add in the extras, it can make a difference, a big difference.

Sub

lhg posted 02-18-2002 04:20 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Tom - The Merc 40 on the 13 Sport was a 2 stroke. The boat had big numbers on it, "$7999", and was on the dock at Lauderdale Marina, Ft Lauderdale.

Regarding engine rigging, I know that prices are all over the place, and it's easy to pay too much. But it can be time consuming work.
I do my own.

I'm not at all familiar with Yamaha costs, which I know tend to be high, but a Merc single engine control is about $175, about $60 for the key harness, and about $40 for throttle shift cables. The engines come complete with do-it-yourself instructions.

Take a look at Teleflex Premier Pro domed gauges. Very nice. You can get a whole set of analog gauges for less than the "multi function tach" for $350!

tbyrne posted 02-19-2002 08:49 AM ET (US)     Profile for tbyrne    
I suspect the price has to do with location. The NE is very different from Fla.

I actually am going with the Teleflex Premier tach & hourmeter. I am from the old svhool that prefers an analog tach to a numerical tach.

kea posted 02-19-2002 05:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for kea  Send Email to kea     
2002 180 Ventura with 125 EXLPTO Mercury engine

Is this a good boat? It would be my first boat. I just want something to do some tubing and light fishing with the kids. Just got back from boat show. The Whaler is about $7,000 more than a Key West 21' dual with 150hp Yamaha. Is it worth it???

Ventura16 posted 02-19-2002 07:43 PM ET (US)     Profile for Ventura16  Send Email to Ventura16     
The 180 Ventura is a fine boat...whether it's worth $7K more than a Key West depends on how you will use it and how long you plan to keep it. There is no question that the Whaler is the better-built boat and uses much higher quality components and fittings. It will also have much better resale value a few years down the road than the Key West. And it has the Whaler unsinkability. If those factors are important to you, than it is an easy decision.

There has been quite a bit of discussion here about how high new boat prices are in general (and Whalers in particular)...look back further than 10 days, both in this forum and the General forum, for some threads that address this. If it were me, and I was looking at a dual console boat in the 18-20' range, I would look at Dauntless/Ventura 20's from 1995-99...those are a lot more boat than the 180 Ventura and can be found in the mid-20K range. Someone else has taken the big depreciation hit and yet they are still new enough to be under warranty...and can probably be found in very good condition.

Tom

jimh posted 02-19-2002 08:23 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Welcome kea to the forum, and since it was your first post, I won't dog you for trying to change the topic of this thread!

Regarding the "show" price of a Montauk and what it would cost to duplicate based on buying an 17 ALERT: by my calculator I can get a boat going for about $20,000 and change starting with an ALERT bare hull any buying the pieces/parts.

The plus side is I am saving about $2,000 to $3,000 dollars; the minus side is I have to build a lot of the boat myself from parts.

When I am all done, I have saved money, and if I am a good boatwright, I have a very nice boat. I have the commercial grade hull lay up, and all the stuff I want, like the specific engine and trailer. I can get Mills canvas instead of SeaRay canvas.

Again, I have a lot of my own labor in the boat. When I go to sell it I may take a hit if the buyer is dubious about my creation. But in real-world terms, if I have done factory-grade work then I won't suffer.

It is an option. It might be an option a dealer could explore, too, if he had some guys sitting around the shop without much to work on.

----

LHG commented that when he was comparing the 22 to the 25 the price delta was only about $5,000 (in 1989). I just saw the model year 2002 210 Outrage along side of the 230 Outrage. Those extra TWO feet will cost you about $20,000. Wow, those are expensive feet.

Chesapeake posted 02-25-2002 02:56 PM ET (US)     Profile for Chesapeake  Send Email to Chesapeake     
JimH:

I would tend to agree with you. The labor to put in a console and the RPS are minimal. The console comes in fully assembled with steering, railing, windshield and switches. It's only a few screws to pop in! I have installed and stripped my boat's console and RPS, probably 5 times in the re-build. I pay others to do the rigging / electrical connections, however. I'd probably blow myself up if I tried.

The best savings might be from finding a whaler dealer that didn't charge list for the parts. I think the $1100 and $2500 quoted are close to actual list, which means the dealer takes a fairly hefty markup. Anyone know of a dealer that discounts OEM parts?

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