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Author Topic:   Outrage 26 by Pascoe
Chap posted 03-04-2002 12:01 PM ET (US)   Profile for Chap   Send Email to Chap  
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/boatreviews/boston_whaler_outrage_26.htm
[I accidently munged this post and hyperlink and am now trying to repair it.--jimh]
daverdla posted 03-04-2002 12:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for daverdla  Send Email to daverdla     
OUCH!
JoeyP posted 03-04-2002 01:32 PM ET (US)     Profile for JoeyP  Send Email to JoeyP     
You forgot to read the disclaimer..."Its a review not a survey". Some valid points but he is definetly a Pursuit Lover.
phatwhaler posted 03-04-2002 02:33 PM ET (US)     Profile for phatwhaler  Send Email to phatwhaler     
Geez, he sounds pissed. Actually I've read most of his reviews and he is a fairly negative fellow. He does have some good points but he also has some favorites that can do no wrong. Intrepid, Pursuit, Contender. He has trashed alot of other nice boats too, Grady's, Shamrocks, and others. I'm curious as to his knowledge of the grid liner system. I'm pretty sure he's not an engineer. Unlimately I'm glad he is there to criticize, because some one at Whaler might actually take note. I have to say that I would personally not be interested in huge Whaler, say bigger than 25 feet. I would also like to see him compare and contrast a "Classic" Whaler to a new one.
tbyrne posted 03-04-2002 02:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for tbyrne    
Trust me - he would HATE the open transoms of the classic Outrages...
phatwhaler posted 03-04-2002 03:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for phatwhaler  Send Email to phatwhaler     
Yeah, he is a little paranoid of the whole open transom thing. I guess he's spent too much time underway on a Mako!
SteveC posted 03-04-2002 04:04 PM ET (US)     Profile for SteveC    
Those Contender 25s (also reviewed by Pasco) sure look nice!

dauntlass 18 posted 03-04-2002 06:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for dauntlass 18  Send Email to dauntlass 18     
Hope I have placed this question in right place.What is grid liner Pasco speaks of in his review of Outrage.Is it new to Whaler constuction.I do not remember any Whaler literature about a grid liner.I always thought of a inner hull and outer hull with foam only between hulls.
JBCornwell posted 03-04-2002 08:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for JBCornwell  Send Email to JBCornwell     
An awful lot of "investigator's bias" there. He clearly had his mind made up, then set out to justify his opinion.

Not even a very good job of that. What has Triton's grid system to do with a Whaler?

I don't like the new generation of undistinguished "SeaRay" Whaler hulls because they are like hanging a Jaguar XKE badge on a '59 Caddy El Dorado. . . completely different design philosophy. I don't question that they are still very well made and finished.

Red sky at night. . .
JB :)

Ed Stone posted 03-04-2002 09:02 PM ET (US)     Profile for Ed Stone  Send Email to Ed Stone     
He has probaly been on more boats the
past year than I have been on in a life
time.But he seems lost when it comes to
the way whalers are built.
Triton grid system?
Aluminum bow rail?
Dick posted 03-04-2002 09:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for Dick  Send Email to Dick     
You have to take that one for what it is worth, nothing.
If he can't tell an SS bow rail from an aluminum he ain't to smart.
Ed Stone posted 03-04-2002 09:33 PM ET (US)     Profile for Ed Stone  Send Email to Ed Stone     
It looks to be a after market bow rail.
That would explain the bend at the pulpit.
He was lost looking in the bilge.He has
the picture upside down.
If he would have looked a little closer
there is access into the bilge behind
the stern seat.
And yes there is a latch on the battery
hatch.
If the trim tabs would not correct the
lean towards starboard there had to be
a problem elsewhere.
This had to be a abused Whaler he was
doing a survey on,most likely at a bad time.
Jurisproodenz posted 03-04-2002 10:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for Jurisproodenz  Send Email to Jurisproodenz     
My 2 cents on this matter:

Mr. Pascoe's review is indeed harsh -- at least on the face of it.

What's he talking about?
1. If you go to his various sites you will see that he has very little if anyhing good to say about twin outboard installations at sea at all, so start with a pinch of salt.

2. He mocks seating up foward ... who does sits up forward on any CC at speed? In some of the boats he cites as exemplary, there is NO seating forward. Fishing or family and fishing? For pure fishing, I am the first to agree, its the wrong boat, but it IS a competent fishing machine.

3. He aslo finds the Outrage cramped. Check out the Regulator 26 FS - it has an 8'6" beam like the Whaler (the model that does have forward seating) and check out the space provided forward and aft -- no difference to the Whaler. The Contender has 8'10" beam (no seating forwards) and is just as cramped as the Whaler aft.

4. He does not like the rounded-off console top -- gee, I guess that is why they gave you a storage bin for your stuff right by the throttles. You put stuff on the console, it bounces off in a chop (I have terminated a cell phone like that on a Mako). BUT, in this case it works fine for sweatshirts, sunglasses, etc. You see, it slopes FORWARDS into the windshield, not sideways or back.

5. He does not like the head arrangement. A lot of boats of this size don't even have them. Having looked at a few that do, I like this one. I can't even imagine what he is talking about "squeezing" into the stand-up compartment -- unless, open the bi-folding door and you might find a bit of extra room!

6. He belittles the transom set up ... the exact same set up as the Contender. The Regulator doesn't even have transom door: solid transom with (Armstrong) bracket. So no swimming from the Regulator with any ease (its a pure fishing machine).

7. Access to machinery etc. Obviously Mr. Pascoe does not know that there are TWO hatches on the transom bulkhead, as well as the ports in the engine well and battery hatch. Oops. You can even see one of the hatches in the photo he supplies of the aft cockpit -- yes it does access the live well, and the valves etc you need access to. The second hatch is behind the drop down seat -- I guess he didn't look.

8. Construction. There is really a mystery...: Whalers don't sink precisely because they are full of foam. How many stories have you heard about Whalers delaminating? How come there are so many old Whalers out there... because they rot away or because they are tough as nails? He'd rather see the "old fashioned way" ... Hmmm. How many seriously old Whalers are floating around out there built in precisely the same way?

8. The ride. While I would be the first to admit the Outrage does not ride like a Contender or Regulator, the 18" chop problem is fantasy (or perhaps a failure to trim the motors?). And so is the inability of the boat to trim. It simply ain't so.

But he is COMPLETELY right about the following:
1. The battery box IS in a stupid place and the hatch should be absolutely watertight as opposed to mostly so.
2. The standard 1000gph bilge pump is ridiculous, but then the amount of void space is negligible too -- you are talking about a boat with 7500 pounds swamped capacity.
3. There are rather pathetic hose closures into the transom -- but they don't let the water just pour in, even when slammed by a wave.
4. The hatch in the motor well, while water tight, is pretty much Brunswick standard -- not too great, but adequate (read Pascoe on other Bruswick products like SeaRay).
5. It is not an Intrepid or Jupiter -- no, that's true and you pay for them too. Pursuit ... now that is difficult, great boats, pricy, but residuals are not as good and ... they sink.

So what's the deal? One man's caviar is another man's bait.... The boat IS a compromise, no doubt, but here I fear the subjective has had a free hand.

Whalerdan posted 03-05-2002 08:34 AM ET (US)     Profile for Whalerdan  Send Email to Whalerdan     
That boat sure didn't look like an abused boat to me. Just to set the record straight, I probably will never buy a boat of that size. I think all his comments are right on. Look at the room behind the console seat! It's not much, if any longer than a montauk! And those seats in the front. I sure wouldn't want to be tripping over them fighting a big Yellow Fin. 26' center consoles are for off shore fishing, period. If you're buying one to use as a booze cruiser, you're buying the wrong boat. Buy a Searay for that. It will work allot better and you can still do some light off shore fishing with it.
jimh posted 03-05-2002 09:13 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
A few comments on the Pascoe Review
----------------------------------

WEB DESIGN
I was glad to see David Pascoe has revised the HTML coding of his reviews to enable the width of the text lines to be made narrow enough to finally be readable. Previous presentations were really awful and hard to read, so much so that I had given up on his site and not visited it in a year or more.

The new HTML does have a few problems wrapping around in-line graphic elements like the photographs, but you can still get the gist of his paragraphs even if half the words are hidden by the graphics.

Apparently he has seldom visited his pages with browsers other than his own favorite to see how his HTML is rendered by various browsers and operating systems.

GRADE = B-minus but improving

BOAT CRITIQUE
Several of the comments on the boat are confusing. He speaks at some length about grid liner systems and how he personally does not "see the point." In the case of a Whaler and its Uni-bond construction, it is hard to miss the point: you have to have a liner or you can't encapsulate the foam.

He includes a drawing of a TRITON boat as an illustration of a grid liner. This type of liner is usually molded separated from the hull, allowed to cure, then set in place and laminated to the hull by secondary bonds and adhesives. Afterward it may have some of its cavities filled with foam, but not high-density foam and not foam contained inside the cavity spaces under pressure. There is little correlation to the Whaler technique.

The Whaler Uni-bond technique marries the hull and the liner with primary bonds and introduces foam, under pressure to maintain high-density, which also cures against the laminates as a primary bond.

The "old fashioned way" to which he refers is to build fiberglas laminated boats like they did in 1957, I guess, since Whaler has been building them with Uni-bond techniques since 1958.

The reference to the bow railing being aluminum is quite a mistake. Were I hiring a surveyor I would hope he could detect the difference between 316L Stainless Steel and aluminum.

Comments about the potti in the console can be made about any such arrangement. The head compartment in a center console is more of a marketing idea to appeal to women than a useful toilet.

Pascoe makes valid criticism of the installation of the batteries in interior bilge spaces which are subject to intrusion of sea water. This is something I like about older Whaler designs: there are no interior spaces! Everything is out in the open and drains easily. You can't have several gallons of sea water sloshing around in the bilge with your pumps and batteries because there is no interior bilge. Okay, you get sea water sloshing around your engine well with the batteries, but at least it drains immediately and you are aware of it.

GRADE = C (Can't over look the SS vs Al mistake)

LITERARY CRITICISM
In the precis, Pascoe alludes to the unsinkable nature of the boat and how later he will explain that this might be an important feature. Later he explains how water sloshing over the transom could leak into bilge spaces. It does not seem like some poorly fitted cable openings should warrant such headline attention. If this is the boat's biggest problem it does not seem to suffer much.

GRADE=B-minus

In general, I think David Pascoe's website is an interesting read. I think the negativity is a good marketing ploy for increasing his attractiveness as a surveyor. Clients hiring surveyors want someone who can find flaws and problems, so naturally his website should be a showcase of problems found by him and criticism of designs.

I am reminded of an example of this in the home inspection field. A local home inspector was also a columnist in the major daily newspaper, featured every weekend with a home inspection column. It was a very effective means of self-promotion, creating a great deal of business for him as a home inspector.

As it happened, a couple of years before we were married my wife hired him to inspect a home she was buying (the same home we still live in). He came out and did an inspection, pointed out a few problems and collected $200. Having lived with this house for 12 years now, I get a good laugh out of that "inspection" and some of the things it missed. I won't go into the details, but let me say that the fellow was much better at self-promotion and writing weekly columns in the newspaper than he was at home inspection.

As for reviews of Whalers, I think you will find that the REFERENCE section contains vastly superior HTML (literally error free and totally standard compliant), far more informed opinion and description of the boats, and much better writing. Of course, having authored it, I am a little biased.

--jimh

jimh posted 03-05-2002 09:20 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Postscript on above: I should also add that I would make the same comparison about the informed opinions and good writing of many of our FORUM contributors.
jimh posted 03-05-2002 01:36 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
[Oops! I have to fix this post later today--the HYPERLINK got blown out by mistake!]
jimh posted 03-06-2002 07:53 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
[OKay, fixed the hyperlink. I was trying to edit something in my post when an little keystroke blew everything to pieces!]
SteveC posted 03-06-2002 12:25 PM ET (US)     Profile for SteveC    
As always, engineering and design are a balance of compromises, and the success of a design in many cases is determined by what weights the designers give to a particular aspects of design. I agree with Mr. Pascoe in that the design of the current whalers is not what I would particularly like to see, but at the same time I am not in the position to spend the 90K to buy one. As for the unsinkability feature, seemingly mocked in this review, this seems to me to be the essence of the whaler design, making repair more difficult than the traditional "sinker" style of construction. Of coarse, anyone with experience operating boats in challenging conditions (for a particular size of boat) will recognize that this feature can come in pretty handy, and there are lot's of people who are not around any longer who would agree. I hope the SeaRay/Whaler people look at this review and realize that the "cup holders, etc." are not what makes a serious boat good. Just my opinion.
caddis posted 03-06-2002 07:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for caddis  Send Email to caddis     
On a side note, it seems by his home page he is in love with the Bertram Moppie. That should make someone on this board very happy (and humble!).
OutrageMan posted 03-06-2002 08:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for OutrageMan  Send Email to OutrageMan     
I guess he knows a good boat when he sees one :)
hauptjm posted 03-07-2002 11:59 AM ET (US)     Profile for hauptjm    
Here is an article he wrote back in 1998 that may shed a little light on the author.

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/perfectboat.htm

msc posted 03-09-2002 06:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for msc  Send Email to msc     
phatwhaler
what is it about a "huge" whaler that spooks you?
zpeed7 posted 03-19-2002 11:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for zpeed7  Send Email to zpeed7     
I think this pretty much sums it up...

"The less discriminating, less experienced boater, will probably find my views nitpicking. However, the serious and experienced fisherman certainly will not: he'll know exactly what I'm talking about."

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