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Author Topic:   Newbie's Basic questions!!! Please help!
blavid posted 03-04-2002 07:45 PM ET (US)   Profile for blavid   Send Email to blavid  
Hi all,

This is my first post and I have a few questions that I hope may be answered, I really enjoy the wealth of knowedge in these forums!

I am about to buy a 2002 model year 210 Outrage or a 210 Ventura. I like the setup of both (pros and cons weighed), and I know that the Ventura isn't exactly a very popular boat in these forums, but I still would like a few questions answered.

1) First, did the hulls used to be the same last year (2001) and for this year's model they changed the 210 Outrage hull? Why? Is there anything wrong with the 210 Ventura hull?

2) Can I be safe in assuming that the 2002 OptiMax engines are more reliable? Who has any concerns or praise?

3) I am definitely stuggling with how to keep the boat stored -- I love the convenience of a wet slip, but I know that I have to probably get the hull painted (I boat in Tampa Bay) and was wondering if anybody condones or has ill feelings about this. My dealer says that keeping the hull the water is a lot of work and needs so much more maintenance with monthly cleaning, haul-out fees, corrosion to the lower engine parts, sea growth in the intakes for the pumps/livewell, etc., as well as immediately decreasing the resale value (after the hull painting).

I have the option of "Hi and Dry" storage where the Whaler will be pulled out after everyday with a huge forklift and placed in dry dock, but I lose some of the advantages of 24-hour accessibility of a wet slip. I would have to call them prior to using the boat so that they can haul it back in the water.

I am thinking of just buying the boat and not bottom paint it for a couple of months or so while I try out the wet slip. If I really like the wet slip, I will have the hull painted in a few months after ownership, or if I think I really don't need the wet slip, I can just switch to "Hi & Dry" storage. If I do take this route, will I cause any permanent damage to the hull by keeping it in the water for a couple or so months with an unpainted hull while I make my storage decision?

Thanks in advance for any input, and I will hopefully become a regular member!!

Ed Stone posted 03-04-2002 08:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for Ed Stone  Send Email to Ed Stone     
blavid,
My vote would be for the 210 Outrage.
The Outrage would sell a lot faster than
a 210 ventura as a used boat.The family
will adapt to the Outrage.And they never
want to go out once the boat has been
around for a while.
Yes the hulls were the same last year.
And no I have heard of no problems with
the old hull.(if any hull is around long
enough someone will find fault with it)
New hulls give people reasons to by new
boats.
As far as I know all the problems have
been worked out on the new Opti's.
I would say high-n-dry.I camped on the water for just a few days and the salt
water tarnished my props and lower units.
I have heard a couple of weeks and you
will have barnacles growing.
Have fun!
Ed Stone
phatwhaler posted 03-04-2002 10:13 PM ET (US)     Profile for phatwhaler  Send Email to phatwhaler     
hailing fm tampa bay,
I would also NOT leave the Boat in the water. Nightmare, errodes the resale value like crazy, and nothing needs more maintenance than a boat floating in saltwater. High and dry sounds like your answer. Do you live on the water? Where in the Bay area do you live? Also I have much respect for optimax Merc's after flogging them at CG Sta Sand Key. They get great gas mileage the lower units shift better than old merc dog and clutch units, and they seem to put out lots of power. They sound a little wierd running though. They sound like an airplane to me. Anyway, if I was repowering I'd go with one. I will say that they are not nearly as owner serviceable as a carb or even efi merc. Lots of stuff under the cowl.
dhlaw posted 03-04-2002 10:23 PM ET (US)     Profile for dhlaw  Send Email to dhlaw     
blavid,
if you are serious about buying an outrage I have a 2000 21 with a 2000 200 opti that is brand new. The boat has every available option. Absolutely loaded and pristine. I can send you pics. I will save you about 12 grand. It also includes a brand new aluminum trailer, double axle. The boat has a custom T-Top with outriggers and electronics box, leaning post, console seat, all cushions, step in center console, freshwater shower, saltwater washdown, baitwell, cutting table, rod holder table for rear, dual batteries. SS prop was balanced and polished. I got the boat last feb (2001) and boat my 28 conquest one month later. The boat has sat in my driveway for a year now.
blavid posted 03-05-2002 06:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for blavid  Send Email to blavid     
Thanks for all the input! This forum is great!

I still am leaning towards a new 2002 boat, but I appreciate the offer of a used 2001 Outrage. I'll let you know if I am interested.

Yeah, hi and dry seems the way to go, but what about when it's 8PM and you want to go see the boat or show it off, but you can't because you didn't call the storage facility ahead of time (they close around 6 or 7pm). That would really upset me...I am more or less a spontaneous person and would love to be able to jump on the whaler at any time. I am not too concerned about the resale value at this time going down pretty quickly, but I am kind of concerned about the increased maintenance required. Besides regular hull cleaning, would the engine or the mounts need any extra work as well? What other nightmares or problems to contend with?

reelescape1 posted 03-05-2002 06:25 PM ET (US)     Profile for reelescape1  Send Email to reelescape1     
Don't consider showing it off after 6 or 7.....consider getting back at dark around 9 in the summer!! That means you have to leave it in the water overnight.....
David Ratusnik posted 03-05-2002 10:07 PM ET (US)     Profile for David Ratusnik  Send Email to David Ratusnik     
blavid- From one FLA boater to another- dry store the boat at a marina in Tampa. Don't destroy the bottom or lower unit with various growth while you sort it out. The boat will take a beating in the slip. Just have the marina fork it in/out. One tip, if you are a fisherman, pick a marina that opens dirt early so you can get to the boat in the early a.m. Some marinas don't open until 7 a.m. (late). ps. As per previous reply, you do not want to mess around with a slip- bad idea. By the way, when forked out, most marinas will wash the boat down plus run it on the hose for you as part of the monthly fee. A good way to start boating. Good luck David
jimh posted 03-06-2002 09:15 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
In a salt-water environment I would agree that out-of-water storage is a must.

I am not a big fan of those High-N-Dry storage places. The thought of my boat riding around on a fork lift 25-feet in the air makes me nervous. It is also hard to work on your boat when it is stored on the third tier.

Getting the boat out of the water and out of the sun will make a big difference in its maintenance, so the dry storage is worth it from that aspect.

A great part of owning a Whaler is that it is a trailerable boat. You can take it with you. We haul our boats all over the place.

The downside to trailering is you need a specialized vehicle to trailer with, and in the case of a 21-foot Whaler you are getting into some serious towing capacity.

When properly set up on the trailer and after some practice, launching and recovering the boat form the trailer is not too hard at all, but, of course, it is not as convenient as just driving down to the marina and finding the boat in the water and ready to go.

--jimh

jimh posted 03-06-2002 09:23 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
On the VENTURA vs OUTRAGE question, it comes down to the seating arrangement. If you expect to generally be in calm and protected water then the sit-down style of helm in the VENTURA will be workable.

If you plan to be in rough water you will want to stand while underway and the OUTRAGE will be better for that style of boating.

The helm position on the VENTURA is farther forward than the OUTRAGE, making the ride rougher for the seated helmsman and co-pilot.

One reason the VENTURA is not as popular with Whaler fans is that a boat of that style finds its best application on a lake or calmer water. If that is where you are boating you can buy two or three non-Whaler boats of that same style for the price of a VENTURA, so there is not a compelling reason to buy such a high-quality and well built boat. If you plan to be five miles offshore in the ocean most of the time you will have a greater appreciation for high strength and high quality, and, above all, unsinkable.

--jimh

David Ratusnik posted 03-06-2002 10:01 AM ET (US)     Profile for David Ratusnik  Send Email to David Ratusnik     
With regard to working on a boat dry-stored, it is not a problem. Most marinas have outdoor bunks and they will fork the boat to the bunks for you to work on the boat. This is not extra expense-part of monthly fee. If you go the marina stored route, check their mechanic arrangement. Are you able to have your mechanic check into the marina and work on your boat, or do you have to use the mechanic employed by the marina. The former is preferable. Very few boats fall off a fork lift. Trailoring point- find a marina where you can store your trailer in doors. If you wish to wander, the boat can be placed on the trailer and away you go. David
aubv posted 03-06-2002 10:28 AM ET (US)     Profile for aubv  Send Email to aubv     
Some marinas will launch you the night before, if you plan an early outing. Ask some questions like how many holding slips they have and see how service oriented the staff is.
David Ratusnik posted 03-06-2002 12:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for David Ratusnik  Send Email to David Ratusnik     
The problem with the holding slip concept is a) weather and b)boat security-sometimes things disappear e.g., ropes, life vests, fishing equipment etc. But, it is an option. David
Whalerdan posted 03-06-2002 12:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for Whalerdan  Send Email to Whalerdan     
I have two friends who dry stack their boats. It always seems like a big hassle. If we want to go out at 5:00pm on a Friday, and we don't decided until 4:45 to do it, (they close at 5) we have to beg them to put the boat in the water. One of theses guy's is paranoid about leaving his boat in the water overnight, so he always has to be back by 5. This is pretty early in the summer months. If you have a boat ramp near your house I would just trailer it. Cheaper and you can use your boat when you want.
daverdla posted 03-06-2002 01:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for daverdla  Send Email to daverdla     
Do marinas allow you to install you own lift? I'm guessing they wouldn't like the steel frame type but a pneumatic floating type might work. Not cheap. We have a neighbor with two with two pneumatic lifts, one for his cigarette and one for his bayliner (strange choice of boats). Won't be easy to move the lift if you change marinas.
Dave
David Ratusnik posted 03-06-2002 02:47 PM ET (US)     Profile for David Ratusnik  Send Email to David Ratusnik     
A couple thoughts on the dry store matter. First, it seems that the time to open and close varies by marina and area. I know one in my area that doesn't open until 7 a.m. Sooo if you are an off shore fisherman most of the time this is late. Close for this marina is 7 p.m. to dry store although certain folks tie off and get forked in the next morning. They reverse the procedure for early a.m. fisherman. With regard to trailering, it has been my experience that folks who trailer use their boats far less then those who dry store. It becomes a big procedure. Although, if you get your kicks trailering go for it. What do you do with the boat when your homeowner association does not permit the boat to be stored on your property. Quite a frequent situation around where I live. The item of a lift at your slip is probably a local marina matter. I know of one marina in my area that has 6/8 slips with lifts. I believe the marina owns the lifts. I can understand the example of the fellow who is "paranoid" to leave his boat in the water at the marina overnight. There is plenty of activity overnight at some marinas-not all of it honest. My .03 David
blavid posted 03-06-2002 09:30 PM ET (US)     Profile for blavid  Send Email to blavid     
Thanks sooo much for all the great advice.....

....but how about all those people who I do see in the wet slips with their inboard engines (and some outboards)....are they really messing up their boats in the saltwater as much as you guys are saying? Are their hulls really deteriorating at a substantial pace? My friends are buying a 31' SeaRay Sundancer (yikes!) and they HAVE to keep it in the water...so I guess they are forced to accept all the disadvantages of the wet slip...so if they can live with it, can I?

I like the idea of marinas with slips with their own lifts, but I do not know of any in the Tampa Bay area...maybe I'll look at the pneumatic lifts (the big air floats you drive up on)...maybe the marina will allow this. Any thoughts?

I did not realize the seating of the VENTURA made so much of a difference compared to the OUTRAGE (in rough offshore weather that is). You mean I can't stand up and drive the VENTURA and maneuver the boat as well as the OUTRAGE? How come? The seating is too far forward? Since they share the same 2001 hull, would it handle any differently for some reason? I definitely would appreciate the quality of either boat more than five miles offshore than in any other brand of boats.

phatwhaler posted 03-06-2002 10:36 PM ET (US)     Profile for phatwhaler  Send Email to phatwhaler     
Once you pass a certain length, around 30ft, it becomes much less feasible to forklift or trailer a boat. So that pretty much explains why larger boats are in the water.

Also most of the running gear on an inboard powered vessel is made of stainless steel and bronze. Both of which hold up fairly well to the saltwater world. With the help of sacrificial anodes (zincs) to fight electrolysis. Aluminum which your outboard is made of is not very resistant to corrosion. Neither is the power trim and tilt assembly that is always wet. More than likely your buddies Sea Ray is inboard powered. If it has inboard/outboard power, engine inside with a outdrive, he's really asking for trouble beacause he can't even tilt the expensive stuff out of the water.

You are right about a slip with a lift. That would pretty much be the ideal set-up. Easy access without the boat sitting in the water.

Where in Tampa Bay do you live, or where would you like the boat to be? Are you purchasing this vessel at Marine Max on U.S. 19?

As for the Ventura/Outrage debate... What are you going to do with the boat? If fishing is a priority over family I would go with the Outrage. The outrage will probably sell much easier if you needed to sell it. If the family is a main concern, I would opt for the ventura beacause it's got more amenities. Nice padded bow, lay down seat to stbd. and seems like it also has a little more room. I grew up with an old 19 Manatee "dual console" so I have soft spot for that style of boat. Something else to consider, the Ventura will enable you to actually sit comfortably and fish. You can sit facing aft and fish which I prefer. The OR has forward facing seats, in each stern quarter, which is not that great in my mind.
I currently have a 20 OR and it's not that comfortable when the fishing is slow. Seems like there's nowhere to sit down in the back of the boat. Some people probably think that's crazy but I prefer to sit facing aft. When fishing of course! Over all I would say the Ventura is a more comfortable ride, but less of a fishing/workboat.

Taking my OR out for little spin tomorrow if your interested. Leaving the Bellair boat ramp at @5:00p.m.

David Ratusnik posted 03-06-2002 11:00 PM ET (US)     Profile for David Ratusnik  Send Email to David Ratusnik     
Blavid- Quick thought- Someone is going to steal your nice new Whaler or its' engine from the slip. Won't happen from the top tier in dry storage. Think about it. .03 David
blavid posted 03-06-2002 11:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for blavid  Send Email to blavid     
Steal my Whaler or it's engine! Is it that easy? Auugghhhh!!!!!!!!!

Live in the Westchase area and would go out of Dunedin...I think it is a nice central location for Tampa Bay boaters...(of course I've never owned a boat before)

You guys all make really good sense...oh, and the last time I went out with my girlfriend on my friend's Stamas center console, she said "Where are all the seats?" ....so the Ventura is probably tops on her list...I would go 30-40% fishing and the rest cruising the Gulf/Intercoastal. I also like to sit n' fish!

BTW, is MarineMax on US 19 a good dealer? They seem really nice.

phatwhaler posted 03-07-2002 12:04 AM ET (US)     Profile for phatwhaler  Send Email to phatwhaler     
I really can't say much about Marine Max. I used to think they were a little expensive, but there aren't many inexpensive Whaler's out there!

Dunedin has two or three High and Dry's. Marker One, Home Port and some others.
Right in between 3 Rooker Bar and Clearwater Pass, with John's Pass and the Cotee river a little farther. Good Location!

Based on your ratio of pleasure/fish I'd say go with the Ventura. It looks like it has a lot more deck space too. Which is at a premium on a OR. Anyway, Good Luck on your purchase.

lhg posted 03-07-2002 12:14 AM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
I would definitely get the new 210 Outrage hull. It's leaner and better looking than the older 21 Outrage/21 Ventura hull in my estimation. Looks more like a Whaler! I have commented elsewhere about the curvy interior, and cheap pilot seats (delete those and put in a good leaning post style seat).

If the 21 Outrage and Conquests, all built on this hull have been discontinued, the 21 Ventura is certainly doomed also. Whaler is again lowering the freeboard on the new models. It had gotten to be too high.

Get the 210 Outrage with the new 175 Optimax, built on the 2.5 liter block. From day one, these have totally trouble free engines. But the 2002 3.0 liter 200/225's are pretty good also.

PMUCCIOLO posted 03-07-2002 12:23 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
If the option for dry storage (forklifted into a rack) exists, TAKE IT!! I kept a boat in the water once--never again! The sun baked it (despite my having it washed and waxed professionally EVERY TWO WEEKS), the bottom had growth on it (despite frequent use and gentle scrubbing of the ablative paint), and I hated having the tilt/trim assembly of the motor exposed to a constant salt bath churned by the electric current of surrounding boats. I understand some of the inconveniences of dry storage, but, if you stay out late or want to leave early, keeping the boat in the water a few hours either way won't harm anything if you flush and wash it well upon haul-out. Take it from me--DO NOT leave the boat in the water.
blavid posted 03-07-2002 07:20 AM ET (US)     Profile for blavid  Send Email to blavid     
OK.....looks like I's going to go high and dry, but one last question....

...the wet slip is totally covered (the whole dock is like a drive in warehouse with a huge wooden roof) so the sun won't get to the boat if it were in the wet slip, and there is practically no waves to splash around the engine lower units (especially with the engine trimmed up). So, the bottom would probably still get some growth, but how would the wet slip still be corrosive to the engine and its parts and mounts? Would any part of it still be sitting directly in the saltwater...or is just the briny environment (air, wind, waves) the suspected villian for corrosion?

Does the hull get "blistered" sitting in the saltwater or is it just marine growth I would worry about?

Let me know cuz' I gotta go change my deposit on the wet slip to one for a high and dry probably!

David Ratusnik posted 03-07-2002 08:33 AM ET (US)     Profile for David Ratusnik  Send Email to David Ratusnik     
Blavid- Another quick thought. The slip dockage will permit you to share your porta potti with various folks in the middle of the night. Happens all the time with small boats. .03 David
knothead posted 03-07-2002 05:53 PM ET (US)     Profile for knothead  Send Email to knothead     
blavid,
I keep a 1987 Montauk in a salt water slip all summer at Wrightsville Beach, N.C. with virtually zero problems, I wax the boat and motor twice a year and bottom paint every season, at least at the waterline. I wash it down after every use, but don't think the kids do. Spring, fall and winter I'm trailering. The beauty of a slip is that you can come and go on your schedule, not the marina's. It's nice to go for a night cruise on the spur of the moment or to decide to go fishing early the next day while having a few beers the night before. It's hard to do that with dry storage. I see the hassles my brother-in-law has with his Outrage 17 which is kept in dry storage. He ends up going with me half the time. I beleive that if you are going to use the boat a lot, a slip is the way to go, if only occasionly, use dry storage. I've never had a blistering, corrosion,or excessive growth problem, I just worry about the bilge pump not working during heavy thundershowers while unattended. (I leave the plug in) Your slip is covered so that shouldn't be a problem. Just remember, you bought the boat to use,and the less hassles there are involved with taking it out, the more you'll use it. These are tough, well built boats, they can handle a salt water slip if adequately maintained, mine has for the last 15 years. Just my .02 knothead
Ed Stone posted 03-07-2002 09:27 PM ET (US)     Profile for Ed Stone  Send Email to Ed Stone     
Blavid,
If you are buying a new whaler in Tampa
bay area you don't have many choices as
far as dealers.
I bought my Whaler from Marine Max and
have been extremely pleased with there
sales and service.
I still think the Outrage would be the
way to go.If they had a leftover 2001
Outrage it has the walk in console with
potti.
Have you looked at the 22 Dauntless?
That is also a nice setup!
Ed Stone
PMUCCIOLO posted 03-08-2002 04:45 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
Knothead has several good points. The boat is built to be used. If you do decide to paint the bottom and leave it in the water, consider a few things.

From extensive research and hours on the phone directly with marine paint manufacturers, I learned the following: (1) The boat must be sanded prior to anything else, even if it is new, (2) The hull is then rubbed down with some sort of alcohol compound to remove and debris from the sanding, (3) Two coats of "barrier coat" are applied (I think the brand on my boat was Interlux 2000/2001.), (4) Two coats of ablative paint on the hull with four coats around the water line.

As far as the engine is concerned: flush it every time! Also a silicone spray applied to the paint from the bottome of the engine cowling to the tip of the skeg is suggested. Do not forget to spray down the trim and tilt rams, as the trim rams may pit and their gaskets deteriorate from chronic salt exposure. You'll pay a few dollars per can for the silicone spray, but it will keep your engine looking beautiful and maintain the trim/tilt apparatus.

I hope that this helps!
Paul

blavid posted 03-08-2002 06:42 AM ET (US)     Profile for blavid  Send Email to blavid     
Everyone has GREAT suggestions...

...I do like the last comments about having the boat and actually USING it as much as possible. The silicone spray is a really good idea for the engine and power/trim assembly. Is there any other product specifically for this (other than WD-40) to help repel the saltwater? Does a barrier coat really need to be done? For what purpose?

dogface posted 03-08-2002 12:19 PM ET (US)     Profile for dogface  Send Email to dogface     
Don't get either one, look at a Conquest of equal size. You won't get wet, the women have a bathroom and can get out of the elements. If you use the boat ALOT then leave it in the water and paint it immediately, black looks pretty nice. I have used out of water storage and it is a pain, you play by the marina rules, return late and you sit outside till am. A Conqest can be locked and valuables stored below. The Outrage is a fishing boat and like has been said the Venture is a "good time" boat not meant for adverse conditions and no matter how you try and avoid crappy weather you it will find you and you'll be glad you aren't in an Outrage.
Da DOg
sorcerer posted 03-08-2002 02:00 PM ET (US)     Profile for sorcerer    
blavid

On a new boat for first time bottom paint a barrier coat is not necessary in fact a waste of money.

You can do it the way Whaler used to offer it, they used an etching solution to remove the wax, plain bottom coat primer (say gray) and then bottom coats of your color and choice. In your case if your going to haul out regularly use a hard bottom paint like Petit Trinidad with the new slime additive, this if you keep it regularly scrubbed/powerwashed during the year say 2 to 3 times will last many seasons, an ablative cannot be scrubbed it needs re-coating annually. The draw back is when it's absolutely time to redo the hard paint (when your primer starts to show) you will need to remove the paint completely and start over again. On the ablative after numerous years of re-coats eventually you'll have to the same thing.

When the boat say reaches around 8 to 10 years old either method you used all will have to be removed back down to a bare hull and then you want to use a 2 part barrier paint at least 2 if not 3 coats before applying new bottom paint. The reason now to use barrier coat is that in the total removal process you have thinned out the thickness of the gelcoat to a point it needs to be protected from water absorption which could result in bottom blistering.

Stick with an Outrage in that size range.

blavid posted 03-08-2002 06:04 PM ET (US)     Profile for blavid  Send Email to blavid     
If the dealer was going to throw in the bottom paint for free, including prep, barrier coat, and ablative paint, would you do it? (Of course nothing is really "free")?

Also, if the 210 VENTURA hull shares the same hull as the 2001 and older 21 OUTRAGES, why do some consider it to be only a "fair weather" boat, especially if the owners of the 21 OUTRAGES (2001 and older) claim great handling in adverse weather? It should handle the same since they are the same hull, right?

Getting oh so close to purchasing a Whaler!!!!

PMUCCIOLO posted 03-11-2002 12:59 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
My post regarding the barrier coat is the recommendation of three of the major bottom paint manufacturers. The sanding my boat received was superficial, and, once again, was per the recommendation of the bottom paint manufacturers. This was about five years ago; perhaps the formulations of the paints have changed since then.

I don't understand the rationale for waiting to barrier coat the bottom. I would be concerned over blistering and water intrusion without it, but, as I stated earlier, perhaps the newer formulations of paints have changed. I am certainly no expert on this, but it would seem logical to "Pay a little now...or a lot later!"

The silicone spray is available from a variety of manufacturers. I use Solder Seal's (the maker of "Gunk"), silicone spary. I believe CRC makes it as well.

I hope that this helps.

Paul

PMUCCIOLO posted 03-11-2002 01:01 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
Something I forgot to add...consider putting zincs on the trim tabs. They (the tabs) will need to be sanded, primed, and painted as well.

Good luck!
Paul

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