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Author Topic:   Undecided: CPD 24' Justice
PMUCCIOLO posted 03-22-2002 12:53 AM ET (US)   Profile for PMUCCIOLO  
I am in a quandry...I was considering a 22' Guardian or a 25' Guardian...UNTIL I went by the CPD factory and saw the 24' Justice hull next to them. It dwarfs the other two. I have a strong liking for the "classic" whaler hulls with the sponsons and deep-V's, but this boat is impressive. Seeing the Justice 24' next to the two Guardians threw a wrench into the works!

I am uncertain about how this boat performs (I am somewhat familiar with the "classics"), and I am especially interested in performance with single vs. twin power.

I will be using the boat (regardless of which one I select) for mainly inshore and some offshore use, bimini top, two to four people (max) and little equipment.

Any input will be greatly appreciated!


phatwhaler posted 03-23-2002 01:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for phatwhaler  Send Email to phatwhaler     
Dear Sir,
After endless underway time on CG242511 (24 Justice) I can say a couple of things.
1. Must be powered by twins. At least two 150's for there to be any performance. The boat had twin 150 Mercs on it then it was upgraded to twin 200 Opti's.
2. The 24 Justice at the Station has had a few problem with stress cracks near the middle cleat. Albeit from very hard use.
3. The Plastic hatch in the splash well and the well itself leaks water into the bilge. With those heavy motors on the back it seems to sit reel low to the water and, only about an inch of freeboard at the transom, it has filled up with water so bad a couple times that the motors were partially submerged. I am assuming though that you are not going to have a huge tow bitt and snap back screen/radar arch and all of that mounted on the back.
3. The factory Whaler T-top broke so many times that I couldn't count them. It was upgraded with an after market unit that is holding up well.
4. This boat rides pretty well under 30 Knots. Speed up and it will beat you. Course any small boat will beat you when going fast.
Bottom Line, the 24 Justice is a great recreational vessel. I will probably hold up just fine under ordinary conditions. I am confused though, isn't the main reason you are exploring CPD is because you can't buy a classic Whaler anymore? I would rather buy a slightly used 26 outrage than spend the ridiculous bucks for a CPD 24 Justice that doesn't have any classic appeal. There are lots of deals to be had on a 26 Outrage. Just look in the Boat Trader.
Phatwhaler out.
PMUCCIOLO posted 03-24-2002 03:02 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    

Thank you for your response. The experience of frequent users (such as the CG or military) is invaluable, as you have used the boat in conditions under which I would be comfortably sitting home in my living room!

The reason for my inquiring about the 24 Justice (ex-Outrage) is that it is only available through CPD. I am not fond of the recreational 23' Outrage. Your point about the 26 OR is well-taken, but I have looked at both the recreational and commercial versions of the 26 and am not partial to it, either. I am still leaning toward the 22' Guardian, but, after my discussions with local law enforcement officers who use the Justice models (21's & 24's), the ride is supposed to be significantly smoother with the Justice (as one would expect with the deeper "V"). Surprisingly, the 24' Justice is only slightly more expensive than the 22' Guardian.

Another few more questions for you:

I did find a few posts about the 23' Walkaround, the hull from which the 24' Justice is derived (per lgh), and it seems that the hull "wanders" a bit and doesn't track well. What is your experience with this? Is the boat wet?

Also, if the boat is run lightly loaded, do you think that the 24 could be powered adequately with a single 250 EFI Yamaha or (soon to be released) 275 HPDI Yamaha? I plan on using a Bimini top, only two or four people (max), and little other equipment or gear on the boat. I like to travel light!

Furthermore, is the CG boat to which you refer moored in the water? If so, how is its deck drainage? I noted your comments, but, for my application (lighter load without towbit and crash rail), the situation may be different.

Thanks again, Phatwhaler, for your input!

lhg posted 03-24-2002 06:04 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
There are now two messages on this Forum regarding accumulation of water underneath the floor liner of 3rd generation Outrages (see Swellmonster's story also). These comments could also apply to the Brunswick 4th generation Outrages

On first seeing these boats, I have often wondered about the below deck enclosed spaces
which obviously could hold large amounts of water, with no way to get rid of it, except by bilge pump, without removing the transom garboard screw-in drain plug, which can't be done from inside the boat. All of this is the result of the 3 mold design of these hulls, where water is trapped between the 2nd and 3rd liners.

This may not be a popular opinion, but I believe this is a serious design flaw in the Whaler concept. On any of the first or second generation 2-skinned hull Outrages, this situation does not exist, and there is no place below decks for hidden water to accumulate. The large bow wells have drain plugs, and the the transom spash wells are formed by the hull itself, with no access hatches to lower concealed areas.

Ed Stone posted 03-24-2002 08:23 PM ET (US)     Profile for Ed Stone  Send Email to Ed Stone     
The 24 Outrage does not have the third
liner like the later models.It does have a
motor well cover with some limited space
under it.The forward hatches,hatch for the
anchor locker,and bow rail fasten directly
to the hull.This explains why this was the
last Outrage with the huge swamp capacity.
Ed Stone
lhg posted 03-24-2002 11:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Thanks for the clarification, Ed. The last time I remember snooping around a 24, all I remember is that there was some sort of a deep, rather inaccessible well under the surface spash well, so it must be only a pratial third liner in the transom area. But this evidently must be the area that filled with water according to our Coastguardsman's post.

But I do like the looks of the boat, and it obviously is still unsinkable. I have seen a few of the USCG 24's, and they are very impressive looking boat. I've always thought it would be a great hull for a bracket and 25" twins, but evidently there was a stern bouyancy problem when this idea was tried out.

phatwhaler posted 03-25-2002 11:03 AM ET (US)     Profile for phatwhaler  Send Email to phatwhaler     

1. Yeah without the extra pipe work and just a bimini you would probably be fine with a 250 Yamaha.
2. As far as wandering goes, Yeah it wonders at WOT with the engines tilted up for speed. At 40 plus knots, lots of boats are a little squirelly. With the factory motor mounts it actually chine walks sometimes, when your in a nice chop etc..
3. The boat sits in the water year round with out bottom paint. We just pull it weekly and pressure clean the bottom. So far no blisters or anything. I think the water filling the bilge is because of the two big engines, plus a large amount of pipe work aft. It leaks in between the motor well and the hull, and probably through the hatch. I think there are two of them back there.
4. Wet? Not to bad. Probably drier than a 22FT Guardian.

Back to the Stern bouyancy issue. The day it partially sank, both engines were just slightly under water, maybe an inch of the top cowl was under water. The water filled up the fish boxes and was floating the lids up via the fenders stowed down there. I believe the bilge pump was on too. I think it was a little choppy that day and the waves were blowing in over the transom. How much further the boat was gonna go, I have no idea.

Bottom Line, I am sure you'll be happy with either of the boats you are considering. Questions for you.
1. Will BW use desert tan gel coat if you want?
2. What are you going to use the boat for?
3. How far is Ponce Inlet from Ormond Beach? I might be moving there next year.
4. Are most or the Recreational accessories available to basically build a new classic?
Talk to ya later.

Phatwhaler out.

RWM posted 03-25-2002 04:03 PM ET (US)     Profile for RWM  Send Email to RWM     
Just saw the Maritime Skiff 23 foot hull #1 at the Portland Maine boatbuilders show. Anyone considering a new Whaler should look at this. Mid-$40K with a 225 Honda 4 stroke. Paul the owner of Maritime used to run Whaler CPD. Great boat (even has a little smirk)...Bob M.
Chap posted 03-25-2002 04:17 PM ET (US)     Profile for Chap  Send Email to Chap     
Relationship implied here I believe:

Notice the assisted vessel.


David Ratusnik posted 03-25-2002 04:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for David Ratusnik  Send Email to David Ratusnik     
It looks like the two guys are trying to rescue a 20-22' Whaler in the second picture. ? No? Good ad picture for the boat builder. Observation David
PMUCCIOLO posted 03-26-2002 03:59 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    

Thank you for the information!

Answers to your questions:

(1) I shall probably order the boat with a white exterior and a "pantone" (?) grey interior (to cut the glare).

(2) The boat will be used for inshore and light offshore use.

(3) Ponce Inlet and Ormond Beach are fairly close together. It takes about 40min to an hour by boat from the SR 40 ramp in Ormond to Ponce Inlet. The reason? LONG no-wake zones.

(4) Many of the recreational parts are still available for the new boats, but I, despite the love of teak, opt for all fiberglass. If you interpret that as "He's too lazy to take care of it." You're right!


Chap posted 03-26-2002 09:18 AM ET (US)     Profile for Chap  Send Email to Chap     
PM- I don't know how you are going to store your boat, in or out covered or not etc. Our Shamrock's interior is a tad darker than Desert Tan and gets so hot in the sun, children could not walk on it barefoot without cooling it down with water and on occasion my wife, never me of course. This could even happen during the course of the day and I'm in Jersey. Have not had a problem with glare or tender feet in the Desert Tan Whaler yet. Just some food for thought. If you go with the 22 definately get the 30" transom and ensure it comes with a full across splashwell with scuppers.
Good luck.
PMUCCIOLO posted 03-27-2002 02:10 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    

Thanks for your input. I'm going to store the boat indoors, as the sun in Florida will bake it in no time.


hardensheetmetal posted 03-27-2002 02:52 PM ET (US)     Profile for hardensheetmetal  Send Email to hardensheetmetal     

(not to get too far off the subject...)I had wanted to get up to that show, I would love to hear your opinions of the new MS23.


Dr Don posted 03-27-2002 05:04 PM ET (US)     Profile for Dr Don  Send Email to Dr Don     
I had a 1986 22' Outrage and now a 1996 24' Outrage. When both were side by side in the driveway the size difference was quite evident. I liked the 22' but was using it 30-50 miles offshore for tuna and that made me look at the 24. The 22 had a 175 Evinrude so it was easier to tow and cost less to run. It does not ride as well as the 24 offshore, there is a difference. The features I thought were important or liked on the 24: Fuel capacity 195 vs 121 on the 22 Guardian and 77 on the rec 22; larger console to block wind, mount electronics ect,; enclosed head which is nice for the family and changing at the dock, large fish boxes in the floor behind leaning post, built in washdown; removable stern seat which is a great place to ride but opens up space for more fishing room; besides it is just a bigger feeling boat for offshore. I looked at the newer 26' outrage. The two reasons I did not buy the 26 were it is much heavier for towing and you can not really touch the water from inside the boat due to the higher sides. I do alot of fly fishing and shallow water fishing in the Chesp. Bay and it is easier to reach down to release fish with the lower sides. The 24 is drier than the 22' but both did a good job in most situations, and at normal speeds I have not noticed the wandering, it runs true. The weight for the Justice 24 is 3500 and for the rec the weight is 3100. That may help with engine choice, I have seen quite a few recs with 250 singles and would think that would do fine with a light load. Mine has twin 175's which I think is ideal because they take up less space than 200's and I can plane and run on one engine. I have talked to people who have been out with twins and the single on this boat and most agree it is better powered with twins. If this is a concern the 22 Guardian (wt 2655) will be fine with a single. The weight of the 25 Guardian is 3575 so you are likely looking at twins for this boat. One other point you may want to consider, there are quite a few used 24' around espec. in Fl. I would check and do a search. Most come with the stern seat, bow cushions, electronics, ect. Mine had most everything on it and I paid 38 without trailer and it was kept inside on a lift and was in great cond. I have looked at the shows this year and did not see anything that came close as far as fit and finish and usable features. I am a diehard classic Whaler fan (had 3) but I really like my 24 and have not looked back since using it. Hope this helps. Don
PMUCCIOLO posted 03-27-2002 11:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    

Thanks for your response. If I can arrage the storage and tow vehicle, I'd prefer the 24' Justice. However, if I have to stick with my current storage arrangements and use my Tundra to tow, I'll probably get the 22' Guardian.

Thanks again!

PMUCCIOLO posted 04-13-2002 07:38 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    

I am corresponding with Joseph Evans, whose 1997 Outrage 24 is listed in "Marketplace."

Have any of the forum participants looked at the boat? Is anyone nearby able (and willing) to take a look at her ["it," to be politically correct!] for me?

Of course, if my negotiations mature, I'm hiring a professional surveyor and Mercury (ok, lhg, I know what you're going to say now!) mechanic to inspect the boat, as I'll have to buy it sight unseen. Your comments and concerns are welcomed.


PMUCCIOLO posted 04-25-2002 02:11 PM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    

This is getting serious! I am considering a number of 24's, one of which is Joseph Evans's Outrage in NJ. A twin 200HP Yamaha powered 1997 just surfaced locally. And then there is the shiny new CPD 24' Justice...I know, it's more money, but I that's the price one pays to have it [his] way.

Your thoughts are appreciated. The 22' Guardian is not out of the running, but it is a bit behind the 24 right now.


SSCH posted 04-28-2002 07:25 PM ET (US)     Profile for SSCH  Send Email to SSCH     
For what its worth, I traded up from a 22 Outrage (single 200 Yamaha) to a 25 Guardian just two years ago. The 25 is a whole different boat than the 22. My 25 has 173 gal fuel tank and a pair of 200 HPDI Yamahas. It was ordered with a 30" transom. This boat keeps her engines well out of the water and runs straight and true at 42 knots in any reasonable water. She gets 2.2 mph ( statute miles) at around 30kts.

If your looking at a 24 CPD you really should give the 25 hard look. I can't tell you how much more boat this is than the 22 (which I dearly loved for many years).

As a last comment, I had mine built all white and worried about the glare. Its not a problem, save the up charge for the second color. I do have a T Top on mine and that does makes alot of difference.

whalerfran posted 04-28-2002 09:36 PM ET (US)     Profile for whalerfran    
SSCH, We need some photos of your boat on the website.
PMUCCIOLO posted 04-29-2002 08:18 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    

Would you e-mail photos of your boat to me? I'm curious as to how you outfitted it.


PMUCCIOLO posted 05-04-2002 09:12 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
Does anyone have experience with the 21' Justice/Outrage? It was suggested to me by the local law enforcement officers, who have a fleet of them. It's significantly smaller than the 24, offers no head under the console, but it is also causes quite a bit less economic impact! Any and all comments and criticisms, as usual, are welcomed.


reelescape1 posted 05-05-2002 08:26 AM ET (US)     Profile for reelescape1  Send Email to reelescape1     
I fished on a friends 94 (?) 21' OR all last rides better than my 90 22' OR in the rough. Mine has more "fishing" space. His had more fuel capacity. His had higher sides. His had longer fish boxes that are probably better overall than mine (if they dont cut your toe off when closing!)...but I can stand a 5 gal. bucket in mine and keep the pottie for the girls! I've been following your thread since the start. I've owned 3 Whalers, a '84 18 OR, a '96 19' OR, and current a '90 22' OR. If I were in your shoes, money not an issue up to a point, and I stuck with a Whaler...I would find an old hull 25' OR with Whaler drive and power with twin HPDI Yam 200.Unless you could order the same in CPD....
PMUCCIOLO posted 05-05-2002 09:49 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    

Thank you for your observations! I'm taking your, and all of the other forum participant's, advice into consideration.


PMUCCIOLO posted 05-09-2002 12:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
The 24 Justice it is! I'm in the process of deciding between twin 200HP Yamaha's and a single 250HP Yamaha HPDI...the saga continues!


lhg posted 05-09-2002 02:32 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Sounds very nice, Paul, and it's great to hear that someone from this site is actually buying a new CPD Whaler. Two in one year. I guess you hold the record. What color gelcoat for this one?

In any HP range, I would get twin engines. You're buying an "offshore" capable boat, so why power it with an "inshore" engine setup, a single? I would go with the twin 150 or 200 EFI's or HPDI's. Also remember, a PAIR of carbed Merc Saltwater 150's would be only $15,000. Currently, the best deal around in twin counter rotating V-6's. Maybe you get the Yamaha dealer to make an equal deal with you on their carbed 150's.

PMUCCIOLO posted 05-09-2002 04:20 PM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    

Here's a ripoff for you...the ONLY Yamaha's available in counter rotation for 2002 are the HPDI's and 4-strokes in the 150HP and up range! Talk about force feeding!

I'll keep you updated as to my progress. I've taken your suggestion into consideration.

Check out the water under the fuel tank in outrages thread, as I was able to get an explanation regarding this from CPD.


PMUCCIOLO posted 05-09-2002 04:21 PM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
I forgot to answer the question re: color. I plan on white and white or pantone gray (interior) and white exterior.

Comments? Suggestions?


Wild Turkey posted 05-09-2002 04:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for Wild Turkey  Send Email to Wild Turkey     

Congratulations on your new boat decision. Sounds like a great rig. Please keep us informed on the procees of working with CPD.

I admit, I'm jealous..... then again you deserve it. (8 years of school and three more of internship)


lhg posted 05-10-2002 01:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Paul - that's interesting information on Yamaha's CR offerings. Now I know why, this past winter season in SE FLorida, I have seen SO MANY boats with new twin Merc carbed or EFI V-6's, 150-200Hp range. They've got the market to themselves!

Yamaha HPDI's, being late comers on the market, have not been big sellers. This is one way to recover the considerable R&D costs before their 4-strokes take over their large HP market. But it's got to be costing them sales, big time. In 2001, conventional 2 stroke outboards were still 70% of total sales, according to NMMA.

PMUCCIOLO posted 05-10-2002 01:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    

It gets better! Yamaha has apparently so over extended itself on the deal with Mercury for the 200 and 225 4-strokes that the release of the 135HP and 150HP 4-strokes has to be delayed until late 2003 or 2004! The demand for the 200 and 225's was so underestimated that there is a backlog of orders for them! I don't think we'll be seeing any discounts on that shelf!

Furthermore, the EFI 135 and 150 4-strokes, are, I am told, were ready for release! What a disaster! Imagine shelling out millions in research, development, and testing, coming up with the product for production, and then not being able to manufacture it due to lack of capacity to do so! Ouch!

Quite frankly, although I'm sure that the EPA has some hand in this, I find it hard to believe that the counter-rotating lower unit costs more to produce, market, install, and distribute on carb and EFI motors than DFI or 4-stroke ones! I smell a rat! I think that Yamaha has made a BIG mistake here.

That's it for my "bitching" for today, everyone have a nice weekend!


PMUCCIOLO posted 05-11-2002 04:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
Scratch the Justice, I'm going to consider the Guardian only. Details to follow.


DCPeters posted 05-16-2002 02:56 PM ET (US)     Profile for DCPeters  Send Email to DCPeters     
the suspense is killing us...
PMUCCIOLO posted 05-16-2002 06:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
I submitted my specifications sheet to the dealer. I'm waiting for a quote...and waiting...and waiting...


peteinsf posted 05-17-2002 02:02 AM ET (US)     Profile for peteinsf    

What were your final specifications? You had so much input, I would love to know what you ended up with...


PMUCCIOLO posted 05-19-2002 06:04 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    

The specifications sheet I submitted reads as follows:

White gelcoat inside and out
Red striping and graphics
Bright SS fittings and cleats
Montauk (classic) console
Montauk (classic) reversible pilot seat

The teak was too expensive to incorporate into the order and too difficult to coordinate. I discussed it with a local supplier of exotic woods, and I decided to abandoned that idea.

When storage is set up, I think that a red Bimini top would be added. Otherwise, a T-top is a consideration.

Those are the basics. I'm still waiting...and waiting...and waiting! (However, my money is still earning interest at the same time!)


lhg posted 05-20-2002 12:23 AM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
22 Guardian, or 25 Guardian? Full transom? Bow pulpit? Either way, it sounds great, especially since that's the interior combination I have in my 25, and really like, albiet raised up over the regular heights because of the scale of the larger boat. Why did you suddenly abandon the 24?

Paul, mine will be in the Boca area til next Sunday. If you want to drive down and see it, and take it for a spin, you're more than welcome.

PMUCCIOLO posted 05-20-2002 10:26 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    

Thank you for your generous offer, but I'll be putting in the hours for the next few weeks at work!

A few more details: The Guardian I'm inquiring about is a 22' open transom model. I prefer that for the type of swimming and fishing we do. No, I didn't pursue the bow pulpit (or the bow rail, for that matter). The reason for that is to keep any protrusions from the hull to a minimum for fishing. The pulpit is a beautiful and functional addition, but not for the type of fishing I like to do.

lhg, if you'd like to e-mail me personally, I shall be happy to elaborate on my decision to stick with the Guardian over the Justice. Basically, it boils down to the recommendations of two friends of mine who are local law enforcement officers. They spend thousands of hours annualy patrolling our local waterways on Guardians and Justices, and (for my application and preferences) they suggested that I stick with "old reliable."

Again, thank you for your generous offer. If the figures are satisfactory, perhaps I can interest you in a spin on my boat!


Louie Kokinis posted 05-22-2002 10:20 AM ET (US)     Profile for Louie Kokinis    
Paul, the factory puts in an extra brace under the forward storage compartment (under the bomar hatch) to strengthen the floor when a t-top is added. Make sure they install it if you intend to put an after market t-top in.

It can be added later (they will supply diagrams) but is a real pain.


PMUCCIOLO posted 05-22-2002 01:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    

Thank you for that tip. The dealer contacted me today, and, hopefully I'll have some figures to review by this evening.


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