posted 03-22-2002 12:53 AM ET (US)     

I am uncertain about how this boat performs (I am somewhat familiar with the "classics"), and I am especially interested in performance with single vs. twin power.

I will be using the boat (regardless of which one I select) for mainly inshore and some offshore use, bimini top, two to four people (max) and little equipment.

Any input will be greatly appreciated!

posted 03-24-2002 03:02 AM ET (US)         

Thank you for your response. The experience of frequent users (such as the CG or military) is invaluable, as you have used the boat in conditions under which I would be comfortably sitting home in my living room!

The reason for my inquiring about the 24 Justice (ex-Outrage) is that it is only available through CPD. I am not fond of the recreational 23' Outrage. Your point about the 26 OR is well-taken, but I have looked at both the recreational and commercial versions of the 26 and am not partial to it, either. I am still leaning toward the 22' Guardian, but, after my discussions with local law enforcement officers who use the Justice models (21's & 24's), the ride is supposed to be significantly smoother with the Justice (as one would expect with the deeper "V"). Surprisingly, the 24' Justice is only slightly more expensive than the 22' Guardian.

Another few more questions for you:

I did find a few posts about the 23' Walkaround, the hull from which the 24' Justice is derived (per lgh), and it seems that the hull "wanders" a bit and doesn't track well. What is your experience with this? Is the boat wet?

Also, if the boat is run lightly loaded, do you think that the 24 could be powered adequately with a single 250 EFI Yamaha or (soon to be released) 275 HPDI Yamaha? I plan on using a Bimini top, only two or four people (max), and little other equipment or gear on the boat. I like to travel light!

Furthermore, is the CG boat to which you refer moored in the water? If so, how is its deck drainage? I noted your comments, but, for my application (lighter load without towbit and crash rail), the situation may be different.

posted 03-24-2002 06:04 PM ET (US)         

On first seeing these boats, I have often wondered about the below deck enclosed spaces
which obviously could hold large amounts of water, with no way to get rid of it, except by bilge pump, without removing the transom garboard screw-in drain plug, which can't be done from inside the boat. All of this is the result of the 3 mold design of these hulls, where water is trapped between the 2nd and 3rd liners.

posted 03-25-2002 11:03 AM ET (US)            

1. Yeah without the extra pipe work and just a bimini you would probably be fine with a 250 Yamaha.
2. As far as wandering goes, Yeah it wonders at WOT with the engines tilted up for speed. At 40 plus knots, lots of boats are a little squirelly. With the factory motor mounts it actually chine walks sometimes, when your in a nice chop etc..
3. The boat sits in the water year round with out bottom paint. We just pull it weekly and pressure clean the bottom. So far no blisters or anything. I think the water filling the bilge is because of the two big engines, plus a large amount of pipe work aft. It leaks in between the motor well and the hull, and probably through the hatch. I think there are two of them back there.
4. Wet? Not to bad. Probably drier than a 22FT Guardian.

Back to the Stern bouyancy issue. The day it partially sank, both engines were just slightly under water, maybe an inch of the top cowl was under water. The water filled up the fish boxes and was floating the lids up via the fenders stowed down there. I believe the bilge pump was on too. I think it was a little choppy that day and the waves were blowing in over the transom. How much further the boat was gonna go, I have no idea.

Bottom Line, I am sure you'll be happy with either of the boats you are considering. Questions for you.
1. Will BW use desert tan gel coat if you want?
2. What are you going to use the boat for?
3. How far is Ponce Inlet from Ormond Beach? I might be moving there next year.
4. Are most or the Recreational accessories available to basically build a new classic?
Talk to ya later.

Phatwhaler out.

posted 03-25-2002 04:17 PM ET (US)            

www.maritimeskiff.com/work.html

Notice the assisted vessel.

posted 03-26-2002 03:59 AM ET (US)         

Thank you for the information!

Answers to your questions:

(1) I shall probably order the boat with a white exterior and a "pantone" (?) grey interior (to cut the glare).

(2) The boat will be used for inshore and light offshore use.

(3) Ponce Inlet and Ormond Beach are fairly close together. It takes about 40min to an hour by boat from the SR 40 ramp in Ormond to Ponce Inlet. The reason? LONG no-wake zones.

(4) Many of the recreational parts are still available for the new boats, but I, despite the love of teak, opt for all fiberglass. If you interpret that as "He's too lazy to take care of it." You're right!

posted 03-27-2002 02:10 AM ET (US)         

Thanks for your input. I'm going to store the boat indoors, as the sun in Florida will bake it in no time.

posted 03-27-2002 02:52 PM ET (US)            

(not to get too far off the subject...)I had wanted to get up to that show, I would love to hear your opinions of the new MS23.

posted 03-27-2002 11:55 PM ET (US)         

Thanks for your response. If I can arrage the storage and tow vehicle, I'd prefer the 24' Justice. However, if I have to stick with my current storage arrangements and use my Tundra to tow, I'll probably get the 22' Guardian.

posted 04-13-2002 07:38 AM ET (US)         

I am corresponding with Joseph Evans, whose 1997 Outrage 24 is listed in "Marketplace."

Have any of the forum participants looked at the boat? Is anyone nearby able (and willing) to take a look at her ["it," to be politically correct!] for me?

Of course, if my negotiations mature, I'm hiring a professional surveyor and Mercury (ok, lhg, I know what you're going to say now!) mechanic to inspect the boat, as I'll have to buy it sight unseen. Your comments and concerns are welcomed.

posted 04-25-2002 02:11 PM ET (US)         

This is getting serious! I am considering a number of 24's, one of which is Joseph Evans's Outrage in NJ. A twin 200HP Yamaha powered 1997 just surfaced locally. And then there is the shiny new CPD 24' Justice...I know, it's more money, but I that's the price one pays to have it [his] way.

Your thoughts are appreciated. The 22' Guardian is not out of the running, but it is a bit behind the 24 right now.

posted 04-28-2002 07:25 PM ET (US)            

If your looking at a 24 CPD you really should give the 25 hard look. I can't tell you how much more boat this is than the 22 (which I dearly loved for many years).

posted 04-29-2002 08:18 AM ET (US)         

Would you e-mail photos of your boat to me? I'm curious as to how you outfitted it.

posted 05-05-2002 09:49 AM ET (US)         

Thank you for your observations! I'm taking your, and all of the other forum participant's, advice into consideration.

posted 05-09-2002 02:32 PM ET (US)         

In any HP range, I would get twin engines. You're buying an "offshore" capable boat, so why power it with an "inshore" engine setup, a single? I would go with the twin 150 or 200 EFI's or HPDI's. Also remember, a PAIR of carbed Merc Saltwater 150's would be only $15,000. Currently, the best deal around in twin counter rotating V-6's. Maybe you get the Yamaha dealer to make an equal deal with you on their carbed 150's.

posted 05-09-2002 04:20 PM ET (US)         

Here's a ripoff for you...the ONLY Yamaha's available in counter rotation for 2002 are the HPDI's and 4-strokes in the 150HP and up range! Talk about force feeding!

I'll keep you updated as to my progress. I've taken your suggestion into consideration.

Check out the water under the fuel tank in outrages thread, as I was able to get an explanation regarding this from CPD.

posted 05-09-2002 04:21 PM ET (US)         

Comments? Suggestions?

posted 05-09-2002 04:59 PM ET (US)            

Congratulations on your new boat decision. Sounds like a great rig. Please keep us informed on the procees of working with CPD.

I admit, I'm jealous..... then again you deserve it. (8 years of school and three more of internship)

posted 05-10-2002 01:46 PM ET (US)         

It gets better! Yamaha has apparently so over extended itself on the deal with Mercury for the 200 and 225 4-strokes that the release of the 135HP and 150HP 4-strokes has to be delayed until late 2003 or 2004! The demand for the 200 and 225's was so underestimated that there is a backlog of orders for them! I don't think we'll be seeing any discounts on that shelf!

Furthermore, the EFI 135 and 150 4-strokes, are, I am told, were ready for release! What a disaster! Imagine shelling out millions in research, development, and testing, coming up with the product for production, and then not being able to manufacture it due to lack of capacity to do so! Ouch!

Quite frankly, although I'm sure that the EPA has some hand in this, I find it hard to believe that the counter-rotating lower unit costs more to produce, market, install, and distribute on carb and EFI motors than DFI or 4-stroke ones! I smell a rat! I think that Yamaha has made a BIG mistake here.

That's it for my "bitching" for today, everyone have a nice weekend!

posted 05-17-2002 02:02 AM ET (US)         

What were your final specifications? You had so much input, I would love to know what you ended up with...

posted 05-19-2002 06:04 AM ET (US)         

The specifications sheet I submitted reads as follows:

White gelcoat inside and out
Red striping and graphics
Bright SS fittings and cleats
Montauk (classic) console
Montauk (classic) reversible pilot seat

The teak was too expensive to incorporate into the order and too difficult to coordinate. I discussed it with a local supplier of exotic woods, and I decided to abandoned that idea.

When storage is set up, I think that a red Bimini top would be added. Otherwise, a T-top is a consideration.

Those are the basics. I'm still waiting...and waiting...and waiting! (However, my money is still earning interest at the same time!)

posted 05-20-2002 10:26 AM ET (US)         

Thank you for your generous offer, but I'll be putting in the hours for the next few weeks at work!

A few more details: The Guardian I'm inquiring about is a 22' open transom model. I prefer that for the type of swimming and fishing we do. No, I didn't pursue the bow pulpit (or the bow rail, for that matter). The reason for that is to keep any protrusions from the hull to a minimum for fishing. The pulpit is a beautiful and functional addition, but not for the type of fishing I like to do.

lhg, if you'd like to e-mail me personally, I shall be happy to elaborate on my decision to stick with the Guardian over the Justice. Basically, it boils down to the recommendations of two friends of mine who are local law enforcement officers. They spend thousands of hours annualy patrolling our local waterways on Guardians and Justices, and (for my application and preferences) they suggested that I stick with "old reliable."

Again, thank you for your generous offer. If the figures are satisfactory, perhaps I can interest you in a spin on my boat!

posted 05-22-2002 10:20 AM ET (US)         

It can be added later (they will supply diagrams) but is a real pain.

posted 05-22-2002 01:28 PM ET (US)         

Thank you for that tip. The dealer contacted me today, and, hopefully I'll have some figures to review by this evening.