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MRW posted 06-19-2002 02:51 PM ET (US)
People have pointed to weight as an important factor in a center console fishing boat's performance in blue water. Since the Whaler line(O.R 21 in particular) is lighter than Caravelle/Regulator/Pro-line etc...does it follow that these are superior to the Whaler?
Jerry Townsend posted 06-19-2002 04:08 PM ET (US)
The Carvelle/Pro-Line, et.al. being heavier and therefore better boats? - not likely. Weight is one item, but length, width and hull design are also important. I'm not a marine designer or expert and therefore can't tell you which is more important. But, in general, a longer, wider and heavier boat will be more stable. You are looking at a 21 OR - most frankly, you do not have to be concerned about those other boats you mentioned being better - because from what I have heard and seen, they aren't. --- Jerry/Idaho
tbyrne posted 06-19-2002 04:49 PM ET (US)
You must not have heard or seen much about Regulators. . . .
Chap posted 06-19-2002 04:58 PM ET (US)
Hello,
All things similar, I agree with this thinking:
Heavy = softer ride, slower speed, less MPG. Light = harder ride, faster speed, more MPG.
However, like Jerry points out, design etc. has a bunch to do with it. I think that increased weight is more important when one crosses the 23' barrier in length and certainly a general statement like "if heavy than better" does not work. The 21 Regulator is an incredible boat.
Thanks
Chap
tully_mars posted 06-19-2002 05:41 PM ET (US)
As far as I can see it weight just makes them sink faster.
Actually, depending on the actual displacement of the hull, weight may not have much affect in performance when is just a few hundred pounds. Deadrise, drag coefficient along with weight can help or hurt.
Here is some stats for you since I did some research once..
Regulator 21 = 2800 lbs dry weight
Length = 20'6"
Beam = 8'2"
Outrage 21 = 2500 lbs dry weight
Length = 20'6"
Beam = 20'4"
Contender 21 = 2100 lbs dry weight
Length = 21'3"
Beam = 8'3"
What this tells me above is that Contender doesn't use enough glass for a strong hull in my book, "flexible flyer". Whaler offsets their strength by design/construction, performance between the Whaler and Regulator are about the same where the Contender is much faster not only by 500lbs, but because the boat is longer and the hull probably provides more lift and less drag to less beam.
Just think if it is easier to push a short wide barge through the water vs. a canoe.
Tully Mars
tully_mars posted 06-19-2002 05:43 PM ET (US)
Correction,
Whaler Beam above is 8'4".
Tully Mars
jimh posted 06-23-2002 08:48 AM ET (US)
If the proposed theory is "more weight is better", then it is easy to test.
Take your boat for a ride by yourself.
Take your boat for a ride with 6-8 adults aboard, stationed equally around the boat.
Compare the ride.
DaveH posted 06-24-2002 10:48 AM ET (US)
Gentlemen:
I have been reading this site for a long time and never felt the need to post my opinions. Facts, on the other hand need to be conveyed rather than conjecture.
Planing hulls are always a compromise.
Displacement (what you call weight), Center of Gravity, Center of Bouyancy, Metacenter, etc. are all design parameters that influence how a hull performs at any given speed. If for the sake of this discussion you must choose to focus on displacement as your "measure of quality" then I suggest that how one distributes the weight of the materials is much more important. For example, would you design a sailboat with lead decks or a lead keel. Both would have the same displacement but only one keeps the sailor breathing air.
In planing hulls, we design for hydrodynamic lift, seakindliness, cost, and funtionality. Since these hulls are usually for pleasure boaters, cost is the number one factor.
In the Louis Vitton Cup (formally America's Cup), the sailboats utilize only the most cutting edge materials- multiaxial glasses, carbon fiber, superior strength epoxy resins, titanium, etc. Cost is not as much a factor as is putting the majority of their allowable weight (they are restricted by an equation which includes weight) in areas to help improve their performance.
With pleasure boats, s-glass vs. e-glass vs. kevlar are all glass choices as is polyester vs. vinylester vs. epoxy resins. Do we hand-lay, vacuum bag, thermal cure? All these choices are for strength versus weight.
The reason I mention all of this is that I could design a very light but strong, high tech stepped hull which could blow the doors off all existing pleasure boats today---but no one could afford it. For each decision in hull design or material choice, a compromise is made by the manufacturer. Your decision is made through your purchase in which you too, made a compromise...think about it.
Wreckdiver posted 06-24-2002 12:06 PM ET (US)
Dave,
You forgot to mention the marketing department, the legal department, or the company owner who likes to “get involved”
RGU
DaveH posted 06-24-2002 12:10 PM ET (US)
I guess that goes into "functionality" too.
Wreckdiver posted 06-24-2002 12:22 PM ET (US)
You are right! I don’t disagree with anything you said. Just being a smart a.
DaveH posted 06-24-2002 04:32 PM ET (US)
I agree with your observations too; It's just difficult to relay sarcasm without making those ;) faces.

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Author	Topic: CONFUSED
MRW	posted 06-19-2002 02:51 PM ET (US) People have pointed to weight as an important factor in a center console fishing boat's performance in blue water. Since the Whaler line(O.R 21 in particular) is lighter than Caravelle/Regulator/Pro-line etc...does it follow that these are superior to the Whaler?
Jerry Townsend	posted 06-19-2002 04:08 PM ET (US) The Carvelle/Pro-Line, et.al. being heavier and therefore better boats? - not likely. Weight is one item, but length, width and hull design are also important. I'm not a marine designer or expert and therefore can't tell you which is more important. But, in general, a longer, wider and heavier boat will be more stable. You are looking at a 21 OR - most frankly, you do not have to be concerned about those other boats you mentioned being better - because from what I have heard and seen, they aren't. --- Jerry/Idaho
tbyrne	posted 06-19-2002 04:49 PM ET (US) You must not have heard or seen much about Regulators. . . .
Chap	posted 06-19-2002 04:58 PM ET (US) Hello, All things similar, I agree with this thinking: Heavy = softer ride, slower speed, less MPG. Light = harder ride, faster speed, more MPG. However, like Jerry points out, design etc. has a bunch to do with it. I think that increased weight is more important when one crosses the 23' barrier in length and certainly a general statement like "if heavy than better" does not work. The 21 Regulator is an incredible boat. Thanks Chap
tully_mars	posted 06-19-2002 05:41 PM ET (US) As far as I can see it weight just makes them sink faster. Actually, depending on the actual displacement of the hull, weight may not have much affect in performance when is just a few hundred pounds. Deadrise, drag coefficient along with weight can help or hurt. Here is some stats for you since I did some research once.. Regulator 21 = 2800 lbs dry weight Length = 20'6" Beam = 8'2" Outrage 21 = 2500 lbs dry weight Length = 20'6" Beam = 20'4" Contender 21 = 2100 lbs dry weight Length = 21'3" Beam = 8'3" What this tells me above is that Contender doesn't use enough glass for a strong hull in my book, "flexible flyer". Whaler offsets their strength by design/construction, performance between the Whaler and Regulator are about the same where the Contender is much faster not only by 500lbs, but because the boat is longer and the hull probably provides more lift and less drag to less beam. Just think if it is easier to push a short wide barge through the water vs. a canoe. Tully Mars
tully_mars	posted 06-19-2002 05:43 PM ET (US) Correction, Whaler Beam above is 8'4". Tully Mars
jimh	posted 06-23-2002 08:48 AM ET (US) If the proposed theory is "more weight is better", then it is easy to test. Take your boat for a ride by yourself. Take your boat for a ride with 6-8 adults aboard, stationed equally around the boat. Compare the ride.
DaveH	posted 06-24-2002 10:48 AM ET (US) Gentlemen: I have been reading this site for a long time and never felt the need to post my opinions. Facts, on the other hand need to be conveyed rather than conjecture. Planing hulls are always a compromise. Displacement (what you call weight), Center of Gravity, Center of Bouyancy, Metacenter, etc. are all design parameters that influence how a hull performs at any given speed. If for the sake of this discussion you must choose to focus on displacement as your "measure of quality" then I suggest that how one distributes the weight of the materials is much more important. For example, would you design a sailboat with lead decks or a lead keel. Both would have the same displacement but only one keeps the sailor breathing air. In planing hulls, we design for hydrodynamic lift, seakindliness, cost, and funtionality. Since these hulls are usually for pleasure boaters, cost is the number one factor. In the Louis Vitton Cup (formally America's Cup), the sailboats utilize only the most cutting edge materials- multiaxial glasses, carbon fiber, superior strength epoxy resins, titanium, etc. Cost is not as much a factor as is putting the majority of their allowable weight (they are restricted by an equation which includes weight) in areas to help improve their performance. With pleasure boats, s-glass vs. e-glass vs. kevlar are all glass choices as is polyester vs. vinylester vs. epoxy resins. Do we hand-lay, vacuum bag, thermal cure? All these choices are for strength versus weight. The reason I mention all of this is that I could design a very light but strong, high tech stepped hull which could blow the doors off all existing pleasure boats today---but no one could afford it. For each decision in hull design or material choice, a compromise is made by the manufacturer. Your decision is made through your purchase in which you too, made a compromise...think about it.
Wreckdiver	posted 06-24-2002 12:06 PM ET (US) Dave, You forgot to mention the marketing department, the legal department, or the company owner who likes to “get involved” RGU
DaveH	posted 06-24-2002 12:10 PM ET (US) I guess that goes into "functionality" too.
Wreckdiver	posted 06-24-2002 12:22 PM ET (US) You are right! I don’t disagree with anything you said. Just being a smart a.
DaveH	posted 06-24-2002 04:32 PM ET (US) I agree with your observations too; It's just difficult to relay sarcasm without making those ;) faces.