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Author Topic:   newbie w/ questions about new 170 Montauk

littleblue posted 07-26-2002 08:18 AM ET (US)
hello whaler fans,
I am very interested in this new montauk, especially the price. I had a few questions before I went to the local dealer though.
First of all I have seen the price at $17g but my fathers friend who recently bought the classic 17 montauk went to the dealer the other day to pick up his boat (getting vhf installed) and saw the new 170. He said the salesmen told him it was only a few thousand MORE than his boat (he paid about 22k I believe). So what I'm getting at is how much have u guys paid for the boat?
In addition, I was wondering about the engines. I really am not a great fan of mercury. What I really want is a Yamaha HPDI. What would be involved in getting one of those engines instead of the Merc? Is the boat just sold w/ a Merc as a package only? Would I have to try to but the boat, sell the merc and then get the yamaha? Also would I have to change all the cables, throttle controls, etc.?
Please give me info asap so I can go to the dealer w/ a little bit more info. Thanks. Hope to join u guys soon.

Peter posted 07-26-2002 09:16 AM ET (US)
Can't help you on the new 170 but Yamaha doesn't make an HPDI below 150hp. The new 170 is only rated for 90hp.
SunnySouthFloridaWhaler posted 07-26-2002 10:10 AM ET (US)
$17995 plus upcharges for Bigfoot 4 stroke, fishing package, bow cushion, Bimini, Pate 28 gal gas tank installed, swivel tongue trailer, clear bow and keel rollers. Total $ 21,307.00, add 6% Florida sales tax for an out the door total of $ 22,585.00.
jimh posted 07-26-2002 12:12 PM ET (US)
There is a more direct method of deducing the price of a new 170-Montauk than by having a friend of a family member go to a dealer and get an offhand quotation of a price in terms of a differential from the price the friend of the family member paid for his boat while getting a VHF radio installed--what brand of radio by the way?
Please see http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/170Montauk/ for price information.
Now as for personal preferences in engines this brings to mind the title of a great science fiction book, "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep" by Phillip K. Dick, and I mention that by way of referencing the notion that I wonder if people who want to buy Scout boats and have a preference for a motor other than a Yamaha have a forum where they can go to wrestle with this same kind of public angst about getting the motor and taking it off and selling it and putting on the motor they really like. Or maybe the guys who are about to buy a Fishhawk boat and would rather that it could be purchased with something other than a Bombardier engine--do they dream of electric sheep, too?
The agreesive pricing of the 170-Montauk (it is cheaper than a BassProShop 17 Mako) is in part due to the bundling of boat with motor and trailer. If you want to take the bundle apart you are perfectly able to do this but in doing so you will have to pay more. That's how the American economy works. You can always get exactly what you want buy you have to pay for it. This concept is not unique to Boston Whaler, to Mercury or to Brunswick. I think Henry Ford started this in about 1914 with the Model-T ("You can get any color you want as long as it's black") and his success has lead others to follow.
littleblue posted 07-26-2002 02:43 PM ET (US)
I see what your saying about putting a new engine on. I forgot that yamaha didn't make a mid range hpdi but even a yamaha 4stroke 100 (30lb lighter). ALso I went to mercury's website and they don't have a big foot 4 stroke in 90 hp. Only went up to 90 hp. Is it a special engine built for this whaler?
I was wondering if u could tell me a bit more on what would actually have to be done to get this accomplished. I guess this procedure is not as common as I thought. Thanks for you advice so far, if u could elaborate a bit more that would be nice.
littleblue posted 07-26-2002 02:49 PM ET (US)
also,
in regards to the msrp, I just wasn't sure about boat dealerships. Are they like car dealerships where if a hot new car comes out the dealers mark up the msrp by a few grand and expect people to pay? Thats what I thought was happening when my dads friend told me his little story. Is there room for wheeling and dealing or should I just expect to pay msrp.
One other thing, how much better is the 4stroke vs. 2stroke? Any difference longevity wise? I know their two stroke doesn't have a high pressure injection system but how far have they come in terms of fuel economy, pullotion, etc.
Bigshot posted 07-26-2002 03:11 PM ET (US)
Get the 4 stroke.....worth every penny in my opinion. I would not buy another 2 stroke.....new that is.
lhg posted 07-26-2002 04:30 PM ET (US)
There is no such thing as a Big Foot 75 or 90 engine. The Big Foot is the 4 1/4" gearcase lower unit when it is installed on a smaller 40-60HP engine, it comes automatically on the Merc 75-125 HP engines, 2 or 4 stroke.
Regarding the 4-stroke Merc/Yamaha engines, 75-100HP, they do not have the EFI system yet. I have heard that the Mercs, at least, will get the EFI for the 2003 model year, a worthwhile improvement. So that could hang you up, temporarily if you want EFI 4-stroke. I don't think the boat can be bought without the Merc engines.
If you want to switch out an engine yourself after purchase, buy it with the 2-stroke. It will be easier to sell outright or trade. Less risk of financial loss in the deal. With the 4-stroke 90 switching up to EFI, a carbed 90 4-stroke could be worth less.
A 115 HP 4-stroke EFI (Merc or Yam) or 2 stroke DFI (Evinrude) would have to be the perfect engine for that boat.
Jimm posted 07-26-2002 08:27 PM ET (US)
Regarding the MSRP - one dealer I shopped at added in: freight, handling, water testing, and unloading to the tune of about 2K. The dealer I bought from gave me the straight MSRP first thing........Jim
jimh posted 07-27-2002 08:08 AM ET (US)
littleblue, Glad we were able to talk you out of that 90-HP Yamaha HPDI engine that doesn't exist.
Now you want to swap engines to save 30-pounds of weight? That will end up costing you about $100/pound.
The specified weights of many of these engines have a tendency to grow by themselves. There is no consistency in the reporting. The Yamaha engine may be listed without any fluids or a propeller, while the Mercury lists their weight ready to run--or vice versa.
If weight is a concern you better start worrying about the whole boat. The new Montauk weighs about 500 pounds more than the old one. If you want to spend $3000 to save 30-pounds in the engine, then how much is it worth to save 500 pounds in the hull?
As for pricing, the MSRP is probably going up--haven't heard it reported yet, though--and demand is strong; don't expect a discount.
littleblue posted 07-27-2002 03:43 PM ET (US)
okay, i have another question now...how does this new montauk compare w/ the 16 ft. dauntless.
Is the dauntless as sea worthy as the montauk? This boat would be used in sf bay and off shore as well. It seems to have some nicer features such as bait tank and larger gas tank. What is the price difference?
littleblue posted 07-27-2002 04:03 PM ET (US)
also, when did they change the style to center console vs. the dual console?
DCPeters posted 07-27-2002 11:29 PM ET (US)
there was a short run of pre-ventura dual console dauntless models. I've seen them and been similarly confused. I believe that that particular hull is different from the present ventura hull, but others would need to clarify.
my local dealer has a couple Dauntless, an classic montauk and a new style montauk all side by side. He's dumping the classic at the same price as the new one...a great deal it would seem. It has a Pate tank, stern seat, all the neat stuff and it's 19K (last year list would have been ~25K) with a saltwater 90. This also means that the new style one is 19K, but that doesn't have the pate. That's with bimini, trailer, but a 2 stroke saltwater 90. Already rigged, and they won't switch it to a 4 stroke...they'll just order you a new one, and you'll have to wait.
The three are really close, with differences in storage, floor space, the embedded tank, the classic's resale, the sex appeal of buying the newest design...makes it a tough call. As long as you buy one of em, you'll be ok. I didn't get the dauntless pricing.
littleblue posted 07-29-2002 06:14 AM ET (US)
how much of a price increase is there going to be on the new montauk and how soon will this price jump happen?
jimh posted 07-29-2002 10:15 AM ET (US)
The "price increase" is anticipated because of the low initial price and the history of these new replacement boats coming in a low introductory pricing then rising. The 130-Sport is an example. It started at $7995 but is now at least a thousand more, although some of that is the engine (which changed to larger horsepower).
But no one really knows how much and when.
Rodger posted 07-29-2002 11:31 AM ET (US)
When I purchsed my 2003 Montauk I was told by the salesman that the retail price had increased %3.5 from the 2002 price. This leads me to believe that there will not be another price increase untill next summer when the 2004 models are released, but I have been wrong before.

Bigshot posted 07-29-2002 11:59 AM ET (US)
When is the world gonna end?
Mayan's say 2012 but they have benn wrong before.
smgrogue posted 08-04-2002 02:43 AM ET (US)
Setting aside for the moment the issue of cost to achieve this, which is ultimately the better motor for the 170...the merc or the evinrude ficht. I know that there has been alot of uncertainty about the ficht in the past, though I have read here that this is now (supposedly) resolved and moreover was never an issue with the 115. At least one forum member (Cetacea p. 41), but would he opt for the merc/yam now if he had a chance?
Now, if the Merc turns out to be the concensus favorite over the ficht, then why not wait a bit and see if the rumors are true that BW will offer the 170 w/ the 115efi? Probably wouldn't get nicked as bad that way. But if the ficht is clearly superior, you can move now, take the hit and be happy knowing you got the primo setup you really wanted. Just my .02.
BMR posted 08-04-2002 09:19 AM ET (US)
Check out the whaler web site. There is no 115 offered and the max Hp is still 90.
smgrogue posted 08-04-2002 02:52 PM ET (US)
As of last week Whaler had updated their 2003 "Classics" page with new info marked 2003, except for the 170 info--which was still makred 2002--so I still thought there might be a chance. I don't see the '02 reference now, so I guess that idea's off for now. Maybe BW will never upgrade the rating, and everybody that wants a better hole shot than the 90 provides will have to repower and take it in the chops.

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Author	Topic: newbie w/ questions about new 170 Montauk
littleblue	posted 07-26-2002 08:18 AM ET (US) hello whaler fans, I am very interested in this new montauk, especially the price. I had a few questions before I went to the local dealer though. First of all I have seen the price at $17g but my fathers friend who recently bought the classic 17 montauk went to the dealer the other day to pick up his boat (getting vhf installed) and saw the new 170. He said the salesmen told him it was only a few thousand MORE than his boat (he paid about 22k I believe). So what I'm getting at is how much have u guys paid for the boat? In addition, I was wondering about the engines. I really am not a great fan of mercury. What I really want is a Yamaha HPDI. What would be involved in getting one of those engines instead of the Merc? Is the boat just sold w/ a Merc as a package only? Would I have to try to but the boat, sell the merc and then get the yamaha? Also would I have to change all the cables, throttle controls, etc.? Please give me info asap so I can go to the dealer w/ a little bit more info. Thanks. Hope to join u guys soon.
Peter	posted 07-26-2002 09:16 AM ET (US) Can't help you on the new 170 but Yamaha doesn't make an HPDI below 150hp. The new 170 is only rated for 90hp.
SunnySouthFloridaWhaler	posted 07-26-2002 10:10 AM ET (US) $17995 plus upcharges for Bigfoot 4 stroke, fishing package, bow cushion, Bimini, Pate 28 gal gas tank installed, swivel tongue trailer, clear bow and keel rollers. Total $ 21,307.00, add 6% Florida sales tax for an out the door total of $ 22,585.00.
jimh	posted 07-26-2002 12:12 PM ET (US) There is a more direct method of deducing the price of a new 170-Montauk than by having a friend of a family member go to a dealer and get an offhand quotation of a price in terms of a differential from the price the friend of the family member paid for his boat while getting a VHF radio installed--what brand of radio by the way? Please see http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/170Montauk/ for price information. Now as for personal preferences in engines this brings to mind the title of a great science fiction book, "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep" by Phillip K. Dick, and I mention that by way of referencing the notion that I wonder if people who want to buy Scout boats and have a preference for a motor other than a Yamaha have a forum where they can go to wrestle with this same kind of public angst about getting the motor and taking it off and selling it and putting on the motor they really like. Or maybe the guys who are about to buy a Fishhawk boat and would rather that it could be purchased with something other than a Bombardier engine--do they dream of electric sheep, too? The agreesive pricing of the 170-Montauk (it is cheaper than a BassProShop 17 Mako) is in part due to the bundling of boat with motor and trailer. If you want to take the bundle apart you are perfectly able to do this but in doing so you will have to pay more. That's how the American economy works. You can always get exactly what you want buy you have to pay for it. This concept is not unique to Boston Whaler, to Mercury or to Brunswick. I think Henry Ford started this in about 1914 with the Model-T ("You can get any color you want as long as it's black") and his success has lead others to follow.
littleblue	posted 07-26-2002 02:43 PM ET (US) I see what your saying about putting a new engine on. I forgot that yamaha didn't make a mid range hpdi but even a yamaha 4stroke 100 (30lb lighter). ALso I went to mercury's website and they don't have a big foot 4 stroke in 90 hp. Only went up to 90 hp. Is it a special engine built for this whaler? I was wondering if u could tell me a bit more on what would actually have to be done to get this accomplished. I guess this procedure is not as common as I thought. Thanks for you advice so far, if u could elaborate a bit more that would be nice.
littleblue	posted 07-26-2002 02:49 PM ET (US) also, in regards to the msrp, I just wasn't sure about boat dealerships. Are they like car dealerships where if a hot new car comes out the dealers mark up the msrp by a few grand and expect people to pay? Thats what I thought was happening when my dads friend told me his little story. Is there room for wheeling and dealing or should I just expect to pay msrp. One other thing, how much better is the 4stroke vs. 2stroke? Any difference longevity wise? I know their two stroke doesn't have a high pressure injection system but how far have they come in terms of fuel economy, pullotion, etc.
Bigshot	posted 07-26-2002 03:11 PM ET (US) Get the 4 stroke.....worth every penny in my opinion. I would not buy another 2 stroke.....new that is.
lhg	posted 07-26-2002 04:30 PM ET (US) There is no such thing as a Big Foot 75 or 90 engine. The Big Foot is the 4 1/4" gearcase lower unit when it is installed on a smaller 40-60HP engine, it comes automatically on the Merc 75-125 HP engines, 2 or 4 stroke. Regarding the 4-stroke Merc/Yamaha engines, 75-100HP, they do not have the EFI system yet. I have heard that the Mercs, at least, will get the EFI for the 2003 model year, a worthwhile improvement. So that could hang you up, temporarily if you want EFI 4-stroke. I don't think the boat can be bought without the Merc engines. If you want to switch out an engine yourself after purchase, buy it with the 2-stroke. It will be easier to sell outright or trade. Less risk of financial loss in the deal. With the 4-stroke 90 switching up to EFI, a carbed 90 4-stroke could be worth less. A 115 HP 4-stroke EFI (Merc or Yam) or 2 stroke DFI (Evinrude) would have to be the perfect engine for that boat.
Jimm	posted 07-26-2002 08:27 PM ET (US) Regarding the MSRP - one dealer I shopped at added in: freight, handling, water testing, and unloading to the tune of about 2K. The dealer I bought from gave me the straight MSRP first thing........Jim
jimh	posted 07-27-2002 08:08 AM ET (US) littleblue, Glad we were able to talk you out of that 90-HP Yamaha HPDI engine that doesn't exist. Now you want to swap engines to save 30-pounds of weight? That will end up costing you about $100/pound. The specified weights of many of these engines have a tendency to grow by themselves. There is no consistency in the reporting. The Yamaha engine may be listed without any fluids or a propeller, while the Mercury lists their weight ready to run--or vice versa. If weight is a concern you better start worrying about the whole boat. The new Montauk weighs about 500 pounds more than the old one. If you want to spend $3000 to save 30-pounds in the engine, then how much is it worth to save 500 pounds in the hull? As for pricing, the MSRP is probably going up--haven't heard it reported yet, though--and demand is strong; don't expect a discount.
littleblue	posted 07-27-2002 03:43 PM ET (US) okay, i have another question now...how does this new montauk compare w/ the 16 ft. dauntless. Is the dauntless as sea worthy as the montauk? This boat would be used in sf bay and off shore as well. It seems to have some nicer features such as bait tank and larger gas tank. What is the price difference?
littleblue	posted 07-27-2002 04:03 PM ET (US) also, when did they change the style to center console vs. the dual console?
DCPeters	posted 07-27-2002 11:29 PM ET (US) there was a short run of pre-ventura dual console dauntless models. I've seen them and been similarly confused. I believe that that particular hull is different from the present ventura hull, but others would need to clarify. my local dealer has a couple Dauntless, an classic montauk and a new style montauk all side by side. He's dumping the classic at the same price as the new one...a great deal it would seem. It has a Pate tank, stern seat, all the neat stuff and it's 19K (last year list would have been ~25K) with a saltwater 90. This also means that the new style one is 19K, but that doesn't have the pate. That's with bimini, trailer, but a 2 stroke saltwater 90. Already rigged, and they won't switch it to a 4 stroke...they'll just order you a new one, and you'll have to wait. The three are really close, with differences in storage, floor space, the embedded tank, the classic's resale, the sex appeal of buying the newest design...makes it a tough call. As long as you buy one of em, you'll be ok. I didn't get the dauntless pricing.
littleblue	posted 07-29-2002 06:14 AM ET (US) how much of a price increase is there going to be on the new montauk and how soon will this price jump happen?
jimh	posted 07-29-2002 10:15 AM ET (US) The "price increase" is anticipated because of the low initial price and the history of these new replacement boats coming in a low introductory pricing then rising. The 130-Sport is an example. It started at $7995 but is now at least a thousand more, although some of that is the engine (which changed to larger horsepower). But no one really knows how much and when.
Rodger	posted 07-29-2002 11:31 AM ET (US) When I purchsed my 2003 Montauk I was told by the salesman that the retail price had increased %3.5 from the 2002 price. This leads me to believe that there will not be another price increase untill next summer when the 2004 models are released, but I have been wrong before.
Bigshot	posted 07-29-2002 11:59 AM ET (US) When is the world gonna end? Mayan's say 2012 but they have benn wrong before.
smgrogue	posted 08-04-2002 02:43 AM ET (US) Setting aside for the moment the issue of cost to achieve this, which is ultimately the better motor for the 170...the merc or the evinrude ficht. I know that there has been alot of uncertainty about the ficht in the past, though I have read here that this is now (supposedly) resolved and moreover was never an issue with the 115. At least one forum member (Cetacea p. 41), but would he opt for the merc/yam now if he had a chance? Now, if the Merc turns out to be the concensus favorite over the ficht, then why not wait a bit and see if the rumors are true that BW will offer the 170 w/ the 115efi? Probably wouldn't get nicked as bad that way. But if the ficht is clearly superior, you can move now, take the hit and be happy knowing you got the primo setup you really wanted. Just my .02.
BMR	posted 08-04-2002 09:19 AM ET (US) Check out the whaler web site. There is no 115 offered and the max Hp is still 90.
smgrogue	posted 08-04-2002 02:52 PM ET (US) As of last week Whaler had updated their 2003 "Classics" page with new info marked 2003, except for the 170 info--which was still makred 2002--so I still thought there might be a chance. I don't see the '02 reference now, so I guess that idea's off for now. Maybe BW will never upgrade the rating, and everybody that wants a better hole shot than the 90 provides will have to repower and take it in the chops.