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  Post-Classic Forum--Still A Good Idea?

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Author Topic:   Post-Classic Forum--Still A Good Idea?
jimh posted 10-04-2002 12:22 AM ET (US)   Profile for jimh   Send Email to jimh  
This post should really be in the Meta-Forum, but I am posting it here because I think it will be seen by more of the people I want to reach.

My question: is it still better to maintain this single isolated forum for discussion of post-1990 designed Whalers, or should the distinction be dropped and discussion of post-1990 Whalers be moved into the rest of the forums?

To digress with a bit of history, this forum was about the last one added to the roster, and it came about in order to provide owners of newer Whalers with a sanctuary, a place where they could be free of constant haggling with others about the design of the new boats versus old boats, the relative quality, etc.

The isolation seems to have worked; we don't have continuous digression on every post about the merits of old versus new Whalers. That seemingly unavoidable problem seems to have been avoided by the segregated topic area.

Also, the website was initially focused exclusively on Classic Whalers, but because of the steady interest and participation of owners of newer Whalers, there was a gradual growth in content about more recent boats.

The idea of dropping the post-Classic forum and integrating discussion of newer boats with the other topics areas has been proposed.

Opinions are welcomed. Also you can email me on this topic if you wish to avoid public comments.

VMG posted 10-04-2002 07:16 AM ET (US)     Profile for VMG  Send Email to VMG     
I think the answer is in your post --

"The isolation seems to have worked; we don't have continuous digression on every post about the merits of old versus new Whalers. That seemingly unavoidable problem seems to have been avoided by the segregated topic area."

Personally, I don't have a problem with it either way. My question to you would be what are you trying to "fix" by eliminating the post-classic section?

David Pendleton posted 10-04-2002 08:59 AM ET (US)     Profile for David Pendleton  Send Email to David Pendleton     
I say keep it.

Dave

Ventura16 posted 10-04-2002 09:07 AM ET (US)     Profile for Ventura16  Send Email to Ventura16     
I certainly enjoy reading the other portions of the forum, even though I don't have a Classic Whaler and much of it doesn't directly pertain to me. I don't know if Classic Whaler owners are interested in discussions about newer Whalers...I suspect they aren't.

It would be nice (in theory, at least) to break down the barriers, but I think the anti-New Whaler sentiment runs too deep. It's probably better to keep it a separate zone...that way only interested participants will venture in. Just my .02...

Tom

bsmotril posted 10-04-2002 09:08 AM ET (US)     Profile for bsmotril  Send Email to bsmotril     
I like the architecture the way it is now. However, if for whatever reason this forum should be combined with the general section, it would not make me stop using the site. This is too good of a resource and learning tool to abandon.
BillS
Arch Autenreith posted 10-04-2002 09:29 AM ET (US)     Profile for Arch Autenreith  Send Email to Arch Autenreith     
The addition of the new 170 Montauk, for example, has made the distinction for classic vs. post-classic less clear. It's a new hull design but it's not discussed in the post- section.

And I also notice too many discussions that apply to both.

I'm in favor of all Whalers being included.

wayne baker posted 10-04-2002 10:04 AM ET (US)     Profile for wayne baker  Send Email to wayne baker     
I had not seen this topic when i posted topic on the classic board this morning. Im new to the site and dont know the extent of this family feud I just find it odd that members of such an elite family cant get along. I have to wonder how long did the smirk cousins have to be blacksheep? I have not been here long enough to have an informed opinon but I love the site and I'll be looking for whaler chat what ever yall(Im from savannah ga.)decide
JBCornwell posted 10-04-2002 10:15 AM ET (US)     Profile for JBCornwell  Send Email to JBCornwell     
I think you should keep it, Jim, for all of the reasons given above.

I also think that owners of the new generation of Whalers would feel less like red-headed stepchildren with a different, more positive title. Some interpret "Post-Classic" as a demeaning, or second best title.

My suggestion would be "New Generation", but I am sure others could offer better suggestions.

Red sky at night. . .
JB

BillD posted 10-04-2002 10:32 AM ET (US)     Profile for BillD  Send Email to BillD     
I say keep it separate and call it whatever makes sense. A new name may be warranted given the redesign of "classics" that is taking place.

My reasons are all those listed above with emphasis on the fact that no "new" Whaler owners bash the "Classics" but some "Classic" owners do seem to have a desire to hate every newer Whaler.

I enjoy being able to ask questions about my boat to people who have a similar boat.

Maybe we could make the 130 and 150 Sport, and 170 Montauk Owners post here?

SunnySouthFloridaWhaler posted 10-04-2002 11:12 AM ET (US)     Profile for SunnySouthFloridaWhaler  Send Email to SunnySouthFloridaWhaler     
I say break down the barriers.

I enjoy reading about all of the whalers and don't mind a little good natured ribbing either.

If we have to keep the barrier up, how about renaming it ULTRA CLASSICS?

SSFW

Arch Autenreith posted 10-04-2002 11:13 AM ET (US)     Profile for Arch Autenreith  Send Email to Arch Autenreith     
Darn...after getting a good night's sleep (and reading JB and Bill's responses) I've changed my mind.

I like the suggestion of somehow keeping them separate but giving new names. As your site continues go grow it may become too much to include all years on one free-for-all forum.

Watch out. If someone has another well-constructed response I may change my mind again :)

Jimm posted 10-04-2002 11:32 AM ET (US)     Profile for Jimm    
I think the forums should be combined. As it is now most members combine classic and modern in the Repairs and
Performance sections. The first few topics in the General section at this time could apply to either classic or modern as could some in the Post Classics section. As in any section, if you read a topic description you are not interested
in - don't open it. Who knows, in 20 years the modern day Whalers may be called Classics.
roofer posted 10-04-2002 12:20 PM ET (US)     Profile for roofer  Send Email to roofer     
I like the set up the way that it currently exsist. however I also don't feel that I couldn't post a question about my 2000 model in the general section. meaning the way it is set up seems to offer the best of both worlds for those that want to go in to general they can, those that want a more focused section can us the post classic area. I also would enjoy seeing this section renamed but in the end that is not a big issue.
Jerry Townsend posted 10-04-2002 12:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for Jerry Townsend  Send Email to Jerry Townsend     
Jimh - knowing your rationale for the separation - which works, but it also creates a barrier, a division, a set of rail-road tracks. This separation is not a big issue of significance in my mind - but I think that it is, in both directions, with many. Some take offense to it - others take offense to deleting the distinction. In view of all of the issues, I suggest that the distinction be eliminated.

We are all owners or enthusiasts of Boston Whaler boats - and that should be the principal criterion. Frankly, I could not care less if a design is a classic or not - I would only be concerned about things that are important - namely, safety, stability, size, features important to me, et.al. I couldn't care less about the color or cosmetics - one must stick with the "stake holders" of importance as mentioned above. There are pros and cons to virtually every design and discussions regarding the differences, if they do come up, would hopefully be civilized.

In fact, when I bought my current whaler ('96 17 Outrage) new, I could have purchased a 'classic' montauk or a '96 montauk. The montauk's are nice boats, but the 17 OR was the best value for my purposes. That decision would be same today.

Prior to that, I had a 13 Sport purchased new in '76. Sometimes I wish I had not sold it - not because it was a 'classic' but because the draft was less than that of the 17 OR and I would be able to use it more on our local Snake River.

Some members are enthusiasts of Fisher's designs - but should realize that his associates have been well trained and unquestionably carry his attributes and thoughts to today's designs. Therefore, many features of Fisher's design concepts have been carried forward to today's boats.

Many must realize that there are several reasons for design changes - improved materials, improved design concepts, incorporating results of tests and research, new ideas, economics, competition, et.al. That process goes on in many walks of life. Consider cars, did you easily get 150,000 miles, or more. out of vehicle designed and built in 1950? - no way. Oh, it is nice to have a 'classic' '57 Chevy, but frankly, today's cars are a better value.

But, either way Jim, I have no big problem. Thanks ------ Jerry/Idaho

BillD posted 10-04-2002 01:52 PM ET (US)     Profile for BillD  Send Email to BillD     
I changed my mind. For what it's worth.

Put them together.

The general topic is just that, general. All whalers should be discussed there. If you really wanted, there could also be a "Classic" forum for discussions about the history of some of the older boats, but in my mind it is not needed.

Fewer forums keeps things simple and functional. One of the multiple reasons we like Whalers.

I think all owners / enthusiasts benefit from seeing as much information as possible on all Whalers. For example I am sure the No Skid cleaning thread in the Post-Classic forum would benefit everyone.

AnthonyT posted 10-04-2002 03:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for AnthonyT  Send Email to AnthonyT     
I agree, they should be together. Especially since part of the appeal of Whalers is how BW tweaks and matures the product through time. This historical perspective across boats and lineages is very important and is hard to maintain in the current forum organization.

Do it and never look back..


AnthonyT

tully_mars posted 10-05-2002 12:55 AM ET (US)     Profile for tully_mars  Send Email to tully_mars     
I for one have already said that Whalers should be classified by their transitions through "Generations" or not at all.

Bottom line, we either own Whalers or we don't. If this site is separating out new versus old there is some physical reason for doing this. What reason would a reader think for other than quality, performance, or looks. We are all either Whaler owners or not.

To come to this site as a new viewer, I would be suspicious of new Whalers just by viewing the difference in quantities of posts between new boats and the classic boats. It would seem that where was little interest in the new boats, or that many people did not care about them. However, a single forum for Whalers would designate the same distinction on new Whalers as on the old. Separate forums only divide, do Whaler owners stand united or divided?

I have owned 4 Whalers now, 2 Classics and 2 Post-Classics. Currently I have 1 Classic 16' and a new 23 Conquest. My judgement is the new boats are far superior to the old, as they are identical in construction, provide advanced hull designs based on originals and experience, and finally add features and comfort not found in the previous generations. Not all are better as nobody is perfect, but in general the new Whalers have been able to maintain the identity that they are the best boats made to any other. To do this they have had to adapt and add features and change. Should they not adapt or change they may become known as the best boats of the early fiberglass construction years in the annals of boat history.

Again, by consolidation of the forums the focus of this site is that Whalers (in general all) are the best boats made. Having a "sideline" for a particular flavor of boats, especially in the sense of newer Whalers, is that they are different. Different is usually not associated with good or better.

If the forums are to remain separate, I think it would be better to focus more on the new Whalers than the old. By advancing the interests of new Whalers we advance the interests of all. By advancing the interests of "Classics" we doom the new Generation Whalers and will eventually hurt the Whaler name. If the Whaler name were to ever go out of business, the reputation of Classics will eventually degenerate also.

Tully Mars

PMUCCIOLO posted 10-05-2002 05:09 PM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
Yes.
Dick posted 10-05-2002 09:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for Dick  Send Email to Dick     
As I have stated several times it is not right to send the owners of newer Whalers to the back of the bus.
I don't care if post classics is kept or not but I feel that all Whaler owners should be treated as equals regardless of the year of the boat.
This site was originated as a classic Whaler site but I think it's about time it turned into a Whaler owners site.

"Welcome to all regardless what year your boat was designed or built in. Every one on this forum will be happy to answer your questions to the best of thier ability."

To much to expect? Guess so.

North Beach posted 10-06-2002 09:56 AM ET (US)     Profile for North Beach    
The isolation seems to have worked; we don't have continuous digression on every post about the merits of old versus new Whalers. That seemingly unavoidable problem seems to have been avoided by the segregated topic area.

Is this really the case--seem like alot of
"digression" on this topic--look what happened to SSFW when he proposed the name "ultra classic."

Don't know what is was like before I wandered here, but the line seems drawn pretty tight. Seeme to me that as time goes on the classic stuff will diminish and the newer stuff will predominate--if CW is still around and if newer stuff welcome.

With a decently described thread topic, don't think it matters either way.

Question though: Will longer and more descriptive thread topics result in some of the language being off the screen ala Pascoe--I think someone said that was the reason why?

Tom W Clark posted 10-07-2002 01:12 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
I think the Post Classic section should stay. I think it’s ironic that any owner of a Post Classic would object to it since it’s very existence is purely for the benefit of the Post Classic owner. Classic Whaler owners do not have their own exclusive FORUM section as the Post Classic Whaler owners do.

Post Classic Whaler owners can post in the any section they want whereas it would be inappropriate for a Classic Whaler owner to post in the Post Classic section. Jim Hebert provided an amusing explanation of what the Post Classic section really means in another thread. I reproduce his comments here:

”The description says "Post-Classic...those boats made after 1990." It does not say that all boats made after 1990 are Post-Classic, but all Post-Classic boats are made after 1990.

Post-Classic implies designed and made after 1990.

Made after 1990 does not imply Post-Classic.

I remember they used to teach SET THEORY to us in the fifth grade, back in 1961...

The set of boats that are POST CLASSIC contains boats that are all made after 1990.

The set of boats that are made after 1990 contains all the POST CLASSIC boats.

But not ALL BOATS in the SET of boats made after 1990 are POST CLASSIC.

I don't think they teach SET THEORY to fifth graders any more. Instead they teach them to work in groups and accept a group grade for their collective work instead of their individual work. They do this so when they get jobs in the laminating shop at a SEA RAY plant they will feel good about themselves...”

I do not understand the inferiority complex of some FORUM members. Why do they feel put upon just because you own a Whaler designed after corporate ownership of Whaler changed hands from CML to Reebok?

The assertion that a Whaler is a Whaler is as preposterous as the statement that a boat is a boat.

Whalers come in many different sizes, colors, ages, designs and even some different construction methods. It is these differences, both subtle and dramatic, that is the very reason to have a FORUM to discuss them. If every Whaler were exactly the same there really wouldn’t be much to talk about. Vive la différence!

North Beach,

The sideways scrolling is caused by one reason, and one reason only: incredibly long set of characters with NO spaces as in some ridiculously long URLs (the usual culprit.) A long thread title will not cause this phenomena, but ovely long titles are not a good thing. Just try to be concise and to the point.

dogface posted 10-07-2002 07:17 AM ET (US)     Profile for dogface  Send Email to dogface     
Sounds like Tom wants us at the back of the bus. Combine the forums. It is clear some of the owners of old Whalers have an attitude on us newer owners therefore I relish the unique interaction that comes when some think that they "have something" over the other folks. Bring on the change,, eeee haa
Dave
dogface posted 10-07-2002 07:32 AM ET (US)     Profile for dogface  Send Email to dogface     
Tom, I just have to address the "inferiority" comment aimed at us lowely newer boat owners. Apparently you don't know me or you would hardly come to think that I felt "inferior" to anyone much less you.. Maybe you need to feel superior by putting other people down. That is what you do when you call people inferior and that is what you have done. Not one of these posts have indicated that anyone felt inferior but you had to project your feeling on us. Shame on you you naughty little boy. Name calling won't be tolerated so go to your room Tom and look at all your pictures of old Whalers.
DaveDaDoggyDew
Jimm posted 10-07-2002 10:38 AM ET (US)     Profile for Jimm    
Tom W. C., please explain your statement -
The assertion that a Whaler is a Whaler is as preposterous as the statement that a boat is a boat.
A car is a car, a Ford is a Ford, a boat is a boat; I guess I'm just missing your thought process.
SunnySouthFloridaWhaler posted 10-07-2002 10:55 AM ET (US)     Profile for SunnySouthFloridaWhaler  Send Email to SunnySouthFloridaWhaler     
Maybe he is thinking along the lines of WJC (Slick Willie) ... "that depends on what your definition of IS is"

SSFW

tabasco posted 10-07-2002 01:52 PM ET (US)     Profile for tabasco  Send Email to tabasco     
I personally like the separation. It's like going to a shopping mall......just another store to pop my head into and see what's doing.

I do agree a name change might be nice.

11 footer posted 10-08-2002 06:00 PM ET (US)     Profile for 11 footer  Send Email to 11 footer     
I agree, The separation is nice but the name gives kind of the idea that they and not wanted.

11

hooter posted 10-08-2002 06:25 PM ET (US)     Profile for hooter    
Whoever said "back a'da bus"?

If yer knows dat a given bar in town caters t'folk dat prefers Mo-town over the Doobie Brothers, dat they's generally drinkin' malt liquor instead o'beer & Perrier, and dat a few o'them is mebbe bruisin' t'bust yer chops, then yer can jez choose t'walk on by dat bar. Leave 'em be.

Now, the "old" or classic Whaler crowd is IN dat R&B jernt. Seems we's all served well by the separate but equal treatment afforded by the current regime. And it helps me mind mah manners, cause Ah can easily step away from the Doobie Brothers jernt when it's properly segregated, so t'speak.

T'each his own is why it woiks well now. Dat's one free opinion.

James posted 10-09-2002 02:02 AM ET (US)     Profile for James  Send Email to James     
Jimh:

I objected to the member attitudes that led to the forum being split. In my opinion, the arguments that led to the split were sometimes rather biased and somewhat insensitive to new Whaler owners. As this thread seems to heat up it appears that the "wounds" have not yet fully healed, and maybe they never will, for some. I do believe that a new name for both forums may be in order. As previously suggested the names New Generation and Classic may help to reduce the inflammatory tones.

The new 170 Montauk is helping to cross some barriers. Opinions may get real interesting if Whaler decides to come out with a new 190 Outrage in 2004 built along the lines of the new 170 and the Classic 18 ft. Outrage.

James.

Bigshot posted 10-09-2002 02:08 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
my free advice is this:

Move this forum under General questions and above Marketplace. I do not think it should be at the bottom of the barrel.

diveorfish posted 10-09-2002 04:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for diveorfish  Send Email to diveorfish     
As a “post-classic” owner, I was never really offended by what “classic Whaler” owners had to say. In fact, I find them very informative and amusing, in a quaint sort of way. I’m into history and enjoy reminiscing about the past also. After all, Continuous Wave is really a web site about classic Whalers. I actually feel fortunate that Jimh gave us newer whaler owners a place to post stuff about our boats also. Since I like older Whalers too, I enjoy reading about the lineage of Boston Whalers as well as stuff that pertains to the newer generation boats.

This forum should stay as it is. If anything, you could add performance and repair forums for post classics.

Fbray posted 10-10-2002 12:19 PM ET (US)     Profile for Fbray  Send Email to Fbray     
I vote to keep things the way they are!! I do not know what META means. I do know what post classic means. I frankly do not care much about the classic whalers (no offense)and appreciate not having to wade through all the threads to get to info on the modern whalers.
lpaton posted 10-10-2002 12:26 PM ET (US)     Profile for lpaton  Send Email to lpaton     
Pls keep it. When I don't have time to read all sections I go to post classic to see if anything has come up on my boat. I'm not in the back of the bus,just part of a select group of Whaler owners.
Laird
B Bear posted 10-11-2002 05:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for B Bear  Send Email to B Bear     
I have some questions for every one;

In the performance forum,

Where are the differences in the trailer between post classic and classic whalers?
Where are the differences in the engines used on post classic and classic whalers?
Where are the differences in the propellers used on post classic and classic whalers?

In the repair and maintenance forum,

Where are the differences in the in possible engine problems between post classic and classic whalers?
Where are the differences in the in repairing and cleaning gel coat or foam between post classic and classic whalers?

In the general forum,

Where are the differences in the general discussion of whaler related issues between post classic and classic whalers?

In the marketplace forum,

Where are the differences in the selling of a post classic and classic whaler?

In the rendezvous forum,

Where are the differences in the having a meet between whaler owners that have post classic and classic whalers?

In the OEM forum,

Are finding parts becoming more the same as post classics get older?

In the META forum,

Does the questions pertaining to the website entail every member?

My suggestion would be that as long as there are issues that may only pertain to post classic whalers that there should be a post classic forum. Moreover, maybe since all the other forums pertain to any whaler that there should be a segregated classic whaler forum if there are issues that only pertain to classics.

Something to think about,
Bear

chuckster posted 10-12-2002 09:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for chuckster  Send Email to chuckster     
Leave a good thing as is...soon it too will become a classic...and nobody will DARE mess with it.
Sixer posted 10-21-2002 07:23 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sixer    
jimh,
If it makes it easier on you, move it. Maybe the 2 'sides' can learn something from each other. Either way is fine for me, and thanks for the effort you put into this.
JohnJ80 posted 10-26-2002 09:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for JohnJ80  Send Email to JohnJ80     
Keep them separate. There is so much information and so many different types of whalers, its just a lot easier to get to a spot where you can concentrate on a few similiar models. i, for one, don't want to have to sort through a whole lot of montauk or other discussions because, frankly, i just don't care about them. If I decide to look at one someday, i know where to look and find them.

There certainly is alot of discussion on the post classics, and there is little of new vs old crabbing - a good thing.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

my $0.02.

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