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Author Topic:   Are Boston Whaler's Safer?
rbyrd posted 02-13-2003 06:42 PM ET (US)   Profile for rbyrd   Send Email to rbyrd  
For given size are Boston Whaler's safer than other boats due to its unsinkability? Go through the whole range: 11' to the 295 Conquest. Heck add the Defiance for - and grins since it was mentioned with other boats.

Regards

Louie Kokinis posted 02-13-2003 07:38 PM ET (US)     Profile for Louie Kokinis    
Depends:

All boats under 20’ must have level floatation, so I would say that a Whalers stability and seaworthiness gives them an edge.

21 and up, yes, definitely; since few other brands offer any type of floatation. The few that do, offer basic – not level.

Louie Kokinis posted 02-13-2003 08:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for Louie Kokinis    
I should add that a safer boat is always IMO the more seaworthy one.

For example take any 2 17-foot boats, both will offer level floatation, but the more seaworthy of the 2 is less likely to require the reserve floatation since it is also less likely to pitch pole, roll, or flip in heavy seas. Power IMO should also enter the equation, since an underpowered hull will also be less seaworthy.

‘Unsinkable’ IMO should take second seat to seaworthiness, and not all ‘unsinkable’ boats have the same degree of unsinkability :)

jimh posted 02-13-2003 11:31 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
If you really want to know the answer you will have to ask an engineer or designer at Boston Whaler.

But you question is good bait for starting an argument.

captbone posted 02-13-2003 11:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for captbone  Send Email to captbone     
They are safer if your boat sinks! That is just about it. I feel that the safety comes from the flare, stability, freeboard, sea handling charateristics along with its ability to shed water quickly. Some boats can do these things better than whaler but if they sink then you will wish you had a whaler. Mainly the safety comes from the skipper, his knowledge and gear.
rbyrd posted 02-14-2003 01:50 AM ET (US)     Profile for rbyrd  Send Email to rbyrd     
jimh,

You are the moderator for this site or this is your site. I really do not care, but you sounded like you were baiting to me. If you go on and read the post it did get to be a post of new BW are not as good as this and that, and etc. I was just pointing out where the post was going.

Concerning the Engineer’s, Manager's comment was to point out there are many reasons to a design change. I do work in manufacturing and from the outside all kinds of assumptions and guessing can go on but you really do not know why the changes unless you are the CEO or President of a company. They take in all the info from surveys and dealers and from manufacturing and engineering, you know what I mean. Also, they do make bad decissions so I am not saying they have the best ideas.

Back to my comment. I might of been a little snotty, but I have seen this baiting way to many times and your post sounded like it was a bait. I come to this board to learn about the BW's and frankly the older ones would not meet my needs. So I am looking and trying to learn about the newer Whaler's and the Classic crowd visiting to stir up arguments gets old. Now do not get me wrong the Classic Whaler's are nice and I am not cutting them at all and I like to read the post of the Classic Whaler owners because there is allot of knowledge to tap into. Moreover, I find this a good site and think you have done a good job. Although, I was surprised to see a moderator baiting and then come back and make a snotty comment to someone posting on their forum. Usually moderators above that kind of thing, but I guess you are not that type of individual.

I have always wondered how people talk to each other in person. They get pretty aggressive on forums like this. I always assumed people aggressive on forums are the ones that bait you face to face and when they get their nose pushed in they want reparations from litigation. This is not a promise or threat, just an observation I have noticed and been a part of in my life time.

I will end here.

Keep up the good work jimh !


kingfish posted 02-14-2003 08:52 AM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     
Huh??

Am I missing something?? (Besides a few marbles)

kingfish

Louie Kokinis posted 02-14-2003 10:45 AM ET (US)     Profile for Louie Kokinis    
Rbyrd

I think that you should read the replies again. I did not compare 2 whalers, but Whalers in general vs other brands! Captbone’s post wasn’t any different from mine, he added the skippers ability and other seaworthy features, which are applicable to all ‘unsinkable’ boats.

Maybe you’re reading too much into the replies :)

All small boats are unsinkable. Brand aside, the more seaworthy boat is still IMO better.

rbyrd posted 02-14-2003 10:52 AM ET (US)     Profile for rbyrd  Send Email to rbyrd     
No he re-posted something I posted in another post to get a dig at me.
rbyrd posted 02-14-2003 10:55 AM ET (US)     Profile for rbyrd  Send Email to rbyrd     
Sorry, I am trying to do two things at one time. jimh post was a dig that I was responding to.
rbyrd posted 02-14-2003 11:10 AM ET (US)     Profile for rbyrd  Send Email to rbyrd     
Hey, you guys are alright. I might of gotten to offended from the jimh post and responded incorrectly.
Louie Kokinis posted 02-14-2003 11:16 AM ET (US)     Profile for Louie Kokinis    
Rbyrd

I think you’ll find that most here have passions for Whalers. Many also want a more comfortable boat, including the ability to not crap in buckets. Although we bitch, nag, complain, and bash models at times – most of us still have a big Whaler tattoo on our butts.

Many have been repeat Whaler customers for many years, and would also prefer to buy new vs used (myself included).

Forums in general tend to get snotty at times, but I think Jim’s done a great job of focusing the conversation. I think that for the most part we are civil, and if you feel that my posts where derogatory, off topic, or aggressive, then please accept my apologies.

Louie

Louie Kokinis posted 02-14-2003 11:17 AM ET (US)     Profile for Louie Kokinis    
ooops, I should have refreshed before posting :(

Louie Kokinis posted 02-14-2003 11:21 AM ET (US)     Profile for Louie Kokinis    
PS I think Jim was just playing with you :)

Look at his reply, then look at your second post in the Forida Whaler Company thread, you’ll see what I mean.

rbyrd posted 02-14-2003 03:13 PM ET (US)     Profile for rbyrd  Send Email to rbyrd     
Louie Kokinis,

You are probably right. I have gotten in trouble with email in the past for being abrasive, but was in a rush and going straight to the point or joking. I apologize for my response.

I tell you I do like the Classic Whaler’s I have seen, but my wife will be a big part of this purchase. A little background. We both are pretty new to offshore fishing, but we enjoy it allot. We have made big adjustments to our savings to move back to Florida where I grew up. Big part of it is family and the fact I feel comfortable there and my wife and I really enjoy our visits back home. We are planning to move to Tampa, I grew up in Orlando, but it will take some time. Hopefully, it will be only a few years we will purchase a house on the inlet that has Gulf access.

Now back to my wife. She also likes to travel and see new places so we want a boat we can dock next to the house and large enough we can go excursion in. Like heading offshore and being safe and also go on weeklong trips. I think a used (28’) Conquest 295 would be perfect for that. I have also seen the 27’ Walk Around, but I do not think it has enough amenities to go out for a period of time and be comfortable in. Like I said I grew up in Florida and owned a Jeep without A/C and it would be unbearable sometimes. So we want A/C, heat, refrigerator, shower and etc. that the Conquest 295 has (probably need a bigger generator that is something people on this board can shed more light on).

Now here are my concerns; after looking at other boats I did not think anything else would be as safe as the Boston Whaler. Also, I thought the Conquest 295 was a stable and had good sea handling characteristics. I am by nature very safety minded and cautious besides fairly intelligent and not put my family or self in harms way. I would purchase all the needed equipment and like I am doing now research all I can.

So in my question what out there would soot my needs better than the Conquest 295? I am a little more in the middle of the road than allot of you considering it would be used mainly for offshore fishing while going on excursions at the same time. I like the Boston Whaler’s and it is not I bashing them so would you recommend a Grady White for what I am looking for. Because I think the unsinkability of the Boston Whaler’s make them the better boat concerning safety and I would not think the GW’s are no more seaworthy than the Whaler’s.

Louie Kokinis posted 02-14-2003 05:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for Louie Kokinis    
rbyrd

It’s a tough question!

Like you I am also looking for a larger boat to use on weekends (we fish all year). Our kids (now teens) don’t like to fish, so the two of us usually weekend on the 22 (warm months only). I had a 2-man tent customized to fit behind the leaning post, and stay on the boat because I don’t want to leave the Guardian unattended at night (no storage and too much gear). We sleep on the boat and use the marinas showers, restrooms, and restaurants.

We’ve fished in 20-degree (F) weather, endured storm force winds, and rainstorms that would make ducks head for cover. A larger boat will allow us to cold weather fish in comfort, and give us the ability to weekend more often. But, I will not sacrifice sea-worthiness for comfort.

We’ve looked at and driven many boats, and find that when looking at a larger hull, it’s really easy to fall in love with the amenities. The Cabo or Davis are IMO best, but they are pricey.

I feel the Grady has a better hull than the Conquest, it’s affordable, it’s stood the test of time, been refined (not redesigned), but I really can’t bring myself to buy one. I also feel that their fit and finish is better than today’s whalers but not yesterdays, besides, what would my friends say :)

If forced to decide today, I would pick Grady :( It’s also unsinkable (basic floatation), and you are less likely to take a huge hit from a deleted model - should you for any reason decide to sell.

Louie

PS unsinkability really should fall down the list of priorities when looking at the 30-foot range. I would suggest looking at the 31-33 foot range - not much more money – much more boat – you’ll be less likely to trade it after a few years of 2-foot-itis :)

IMO crash pumps, a couple of diesels, and a seaworthy hull are better. The Defiance’s fate has me thinking that I’m not the only one who thinks this way.

PSS I’m going to hear about this one :(

jaccoserv posted 02-14-2003 11:27 PM ET (US)     Profile for jaccoserv  Send Email to jaccoserv     
Louie you hit the nail on the head in that last statement. If your looking to get into a 30'+ boat, the whole unsinkable bit kind of falls by the wayside. Cabo's 31 would be a cinch to sell 5 years down the road, also if you're looking for a real solid boat, check out the mid 90s 30' Bertram Moppie. And how can we forget about Pursuit.

JC

(last i checked the entry level Davis 45' lists for about $950,000.00....YIKES!!!)

rbyrd posted 02-14-2003 11:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for rbyrd  Send Email to rbyrd     
Concerning diesels. I know the range benifits and the time in between rebuilds, but arn't the rebuilds really pricy? How do they compare to outboards concerning cost of rebuilds. A co-worker of mine has a older Bertram and he said he shelled out $10K for a rebuild.

I also wonder about the new four stroke outboard engines concerning period to rebuild and reliability. I would not want the new four stroke Mercury's until a few years from now when the bugs are worked. Hey I am a Reliability Engineer and you about always have issues the first few years after product release. You similate real world, but all the test you do can not cover all the bases.

Hey any other opinions on the 295 Conquest. I was surprised to hear a Whaler owner pick a Grady over a Whaler.

This is not a argument just thinking out load. I know allot of you know more about boats than I, but change is not all bad. The Grady you said is refined like a BMW, but they are not reliable (BMW's). Also, the new Corvette Z06 in all out performance will blow the doors off a BMW (M5) for 20K less. Also the newer engine LS1 and LS6 in the Vetts are stronger more reliable (I have experience with these engines and there is not another engine in any other vehicle that is better today) and etc. and it is a fairly new design.

Guess when the time comes I will just have to test the Grady's to the Whaler's. I do not know, but if I get caught in rough seas and take on tons of water that unsinkable hull (maybe it is my lack of experience) seems like a piece of insurance I would want.

Looking at the GW's it would be nice if BW would off a 30' Walk Around. By the time we purchase they might have one.

I have plenty of time to learn and evaluate.

rbyrd posted 02-15-2003 12:19 AM ET (US)     Profile for rbyrd  Send Email to rbyrd     
Buddy Davis is way, way ,way out of my league. I am looking to pay less than $100K for a boat. I do not even look at those type of toys.

Resale is important, but I think the Conquest will be around awhile, only the future will tell. Also, my wife and I will keep a vehicle forever. We get our monies worth out of a large purchase. So we would keep the boat awhile.

rbyrd posted 02-15-2003 12:35 AM ET (US)     Profile for rbyrd  Send Email to rbyrd     
Louie,

You got me looking at the Grady White web site. Real nice site. Then I went to yachtworld for pricing of used GW's to BW's, Marlin to Conquest and they both seem to be in the same price rang. I think you are going to loose the same amount of money to depreciation per year with either.

Man boats are terrible financial investment, but I would think they would be great spirtual investments (hey I am not new wave, but spirtual is the best description I could think of). Well with the spirtual investment that still needs to be seen. If it is anything like the LS1 engine in a Jeep Wrangler I did then it could be more of a pain.

I have to tell you it is like falling in love. I have a hankering for the BW and I do not think I would be satisfied with anything else until I own one. So for me the GW would not fill that need, unless the BW throws me. Again it would be nice if BW would make a Walk Around. Fun for the kids to sit or stand in the bow.

Louie Kokinis posted 02-15-2003 12:56 AM ET (US)     Profile for Louie Kokinis    
Change can be good, and your reference to the Z06 is a great example of new design being better. Just compare a ZR1 to a Z06 Vette and it becomes obvious that the newer engine is better in every aspect.

That said, I think boats are a different story since the only ‘real’ change for most has been the ‘bubble’ effect for more interior space, the rounding of corners for easier lay-ups and faster mold turnaround, the much "loved" Euro transom, and the desire to sell boats as numbers like 290 which reflect a model vs the actual length. True some have added steps, and use computers to squeeze out efficiencies, but in general the bottoms are relatively unchanged.

Diesel is IMO the way to go with a 30 + footer. I also feel that cost of fuel and rebuild dollars should not enter the equation – range, max power at the transom, and reliability on the other hand should.

Regarding the Grady, I said, “if forced to decide today”, that I would buy one over the Conquest. But I’m not forced to, and really don’t think that the fit and finish is where I would want it to be.

I’m sure neither boat will sink and that both hulls will bring your family home. What is rough water to some is ‘simply play’ time to others. Either the Grady or Whaler will take more than most are willing to accept and you are the only one who can decide how much seaworthiness is too much, or not enough for you.

Buy what makes you happy, what I or anyone else says is irrelevant – it is after all your money. My only suggestion is to drive them first.

Bigshot posted 02-15-2003 12:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
Well...to answer your original question. I really do not know about all whalers but certain models are very safe and I think that is what built Whalers reputation. Take the classic 13 & 16's, very stable, dry and bouyant. Is it safer than most boats....absolutely. Is a 27' Whaler safer than a 27 Grady? The fact that it is unsinkable is a plus but just because it can't sink does not mean it will not flip or something due to a bad design. It might not be safer but it sure won't sink. Question you have to ask yourself is....what are my odds of sinking? I don't think Dick Fisher designed BW just to build an unsinkable boat(which I think brunswick has forgotten). I think it's abilty to not sink was a plus in a 13' boat when a heavy rain would sink most wooden boats if not bailed. The unsinkability also makes bouyancy and an added measure of safety but I don't think it was his main purpose. Surfboards can't sink yet we don't fish off of them.
Bigshot posted 02-15-2003 12:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
PS....being Ray Hunt helped design the original Whaler....if unsinkability was that great and important don't ya think he would have made an unsinkable Bertram or one of his sailboats? If unsinkabilty is so great then why don't more companies make them and why does'nt everyone buy one? Mainly because even if you get a leak or a hole, you can usually make it back to port. That is probably why God invented bilge pumps.
Louie Kokinis posted 02-15-2003 05:35 PM ET (US)     Profile for Louie Kokinis    
I don’t know when the CG started enforcing level floatation under 20’. I would guess that it was a few years after the original Whaler hulls where introduced though. Nowadays all small boats are unsinkable, but not all are equally seaworthy - Great points Nick!

I forgot to mention that although neither boat (Grady or Whaler) will completely sink, the Grady’s basic floatation will not support the power heads above water when swamped – the Whaler’s level floatation will keep the power heads dry.

rbyrd posted 02-16-2003 02:19 AM ET (US)     Profile for rbyrd  Send Email to rbyrd     
THanks Louie and Bigshot,

Well I think I will scratch off the Whaler as an option and look for something better. If Whaler owners are bashing a product so relentlessly then I must have been mistaken of the soundness of their boats. It sounds like a BW is not the boat for my family.

I will look at Shamrock boats. I like their keel design and the fact they are Diesel. I think you have some good points.

Thank you

lae posted 02-16-2003 10:55 AM ET (US)     Profile for lae  Send Email to lae     
He rises angrily to the bait. Sorry ,got an attitude this morning. Personal issues are rampant. Lets move this one to the top again. I think that exposure will tell. IMHO (oops) Good call Jim.
Larry
lae posted 02-16-2003 10:58 AM ET (US)     Profile for lae  Send Email to lae     
Sorry, should have researched previous threads. Will try to do that now. Just had trouble with the general feel of the thread.
Larry
jimh posted 02-16-2003 01:51 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
[Brief explanaion of my comments contained above.]

As Louie notes, my response to this topic is virtually word-for-word the same as a response rbyrd posted to a thread I recently began.

A great number of threads exist that call for the posting of opinions. Over opinions there are sure to be disagreements. rbyrd's response was so "universal" in its nature that I was sure that I could use it on one of his own postings in a short time.

I didn't think the opportunity would arise so quickly.

:-)

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