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Author Topic:   Are BWs really THAT bad?

pjvh posted 07-24-2003 09:16 AM ET (US)
I have just read a shatteringly bad review of a BW Conquest 26 on David Pascoe's web site. It is such a bad review that, if there is anything in it, I am not sure I will ever buy another BW. So what is going on? Is this man Pascoe some lone nutter trying to take on the big boys? Or is there any sense in what he says? You'll find the review at www.boatsurvey.com.
All thoughts gratefully received
pjvh posted 07-24-2003 09:17 AM ET (US)
sorry, I meant Outrage 26.
DCM posted 07-24-2003 09:46 AM ET (US)
Do you have any specific questions, or are you just trolling with that post?
Dan
pjvh posted 07-24-2003 10:02 AM ET (US)
Trolling? Unfamiliar with the expression. No, I was just surprised to read such a bad review of a BW when I had always thought they were of pretty exceptional quality. I own a Conquest 23 and it seems to be okay but what Pascoe seems to be saying is that the hulls are actually not that brilliant and that they are far too expensive for what they are. Frankly, having read Pascoie's review I am going to think twice about a BW 26. Is he on the right track or is he talking through his exhaust, so to speak?
bsmotril posted 07-24-2003 10:04 AM ET (US)
They are so bad that Whaler owners recorded the highest ever level of customer satisfaction in the PowerBoat reports survey of boat owners by individual brands. Powerboats report is an independant publication that accepts no advertising dollars. It is the "Consumer Reports" of the boating world.
Pascoe is always down on pretty much any type of cored or non-traditional construction. Read about 20 of his reports and you'll get a good idea of where his bias lies.
BillS
pjvh posted 07-24-2003 10:10 AM ET (US)
Thanks for that. I too always thought that BWs were meant to be practically beyond criticism! But I have to say that Pascoe's report has freaked me out a bit. I will have a look out for your Powerboats thingy.
pjvh posted 07-24-2003 10:22 AM ET (US)
Have found Powerboats Report website. With all due respect, if Powerboats Report don't accept advertising dollars and are keen to remain independent of corporate pressures from outside, how come their links pages includes endless commercial concerns such as Boston Whaler and the rest? They may not be accepting money, but they sure are plugging 'em!
Moe posted 07-24-2003 10:22 AM ET (US)
In the first place, the URL is:
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/boatreviews/boston_whaler_outrage_26.htm
Not www.boatsurvery.com, a domain name that's for sale.
I read the review and certainly don't find it "shatteringly bad." It looks like the author likes a boat where he can take the whole floor up and inspect the stringers, etc. BW isn't such a boat. He's also pointed out what he doesn't like about the design of THIS PARTICULAR BW. I some cases, he has a solid case, and BW engineering should take note for future changes. In other cases, it looks to me like personal preference. The review strikes me more as a criticism of design than quality.
No product is without its critics. We see them with our Airstream and Harley-Davidsons.
--
Moe
DCM posted 07-24-2003 11:35 AM ET (US)
pjvh
"Trolling" is loosely described as a newcomer coming to a support forum for a particular thing and posting something to stir up the members, lots of times just to get a reaction. I noticed you were new, only 3 posts, just joined a few days ago. Thats why I asked if you were "Trolling"
I'm glad to find we are a level-headed bunch :) Moe, your reply was especially well-thought-out and insightful.
Dan
pjvh posted 07-24-2003 12:34 PM ET (US)
No I was not "trolling". As a Boston Whaler owner I was actually just looking for help via your forum. But such was your reaction that I am not sure that I will bother again.
DCM posted 07-24-2003 03:08 PM ET (US)
Sorry if I upset you Peter. I was not calling you a troll, simply asking if you were one. I apologize if it came out wrong.
This forum has been very helpful to me even in the short time I've been here. I'm sure if you have any specific questions or requests, you will find it the same way also.
Regards, Dan M
Jerry Townsend posted 07-24-2003 03:46 PM ET (US)
pvjh - Welcome to the forum. I'm sure that you will enjoy this forum - as containing those interested in Boston Whaler boats. Normally, the discussion is above board, constructive, objective, informative and friendly.
The word "troll" refers to someone who is only trying to cause problems or causing heated personal communications. The term does not carry any reference to young, old, newcomer or experience.
As such, I would not even come close to labelling you a troll. Your question is germane. I have read negative reports of Pascoe. My response of his "reports" is mixed - some I think might have merit while others are, in my mind, biased. Seeing the latter, I don't waste any time with his stuff. Perhaps someone with more experience reading Pascoe's stuff may have additional information for you. -------- Jerry/Idah
Barney posted 07-24-2003 03:53 PM ET (US)
He doesn't like 'SeaRay' or Mercruiser either. B...
North Beach posted 07-24-2003 07:34 PM ET (US)
Jerry:
Where did you see the negative reports on Pascoe?
Jerry Townsend posted 07-24-2003 09:34 PM ET (US)
North Beach - I mentioned above that I had
"...read negative reports of Pascoe. My response of his "reports" is mixed - some I think might have merit while others are, in my mind, biased."
Perhaps the word "by" should have been used instead of "of" - but they are both saying the same thing.
I have never seen anything written by bona-fide experts "on" Pascoe. And, I am not an expert on boats - but can only evaluate his words and comments on a technical basis. My knowledge of Pascoe is that he is a marine surveyor who is repsected by some and considered biased by others. I recall reading comments/thoughts of Pascoe a year or two ago (and the subject escapes me) that, in part, caused me to raise an eyebrow. But, his experience and knowledge is still of selected value. ------ Jerry/Idaho
jaccoserv posted 07-24-2003 10:09 PM ET (US)
In Pascoe's defense, I see it as this: If you look at a universally well repected boat, say a Hatteras or Bertram http://www.yachtsurvey.com/boatreviews/bertram_30_moppie.htm , you will see that he finds little or no improvements necesary, next, take a sub-par, assembly-line type boat like a Sea Ray http://www.yachtsurvey.com/boatreviews/sundancer_290.htm , he points out obvious shortcomings(like fuel lines covered in flammable conduit).
Personally, I wouldn't let him alone sway me from buying a particular boat, but I can't deny some of the points he brings up in terms of why a boat may be hard to sell down the line, unsafe, etc.
pjvh posted 07-25-2003 07:14 AM ET (US)
Good to see the last few posts. I think Pascoe does need a bit of examination not least because he wields such influence. If you are a new boat buyer, as I was a few years ago, and you search the net for boat reviews you come across his website pretty quickly. Pascoe sets himself up as a bigshot surveyor and he seems to sound knowledgeable. He certainly put me off some models. For example, I would never ever ever buy a Mochi after reading his stuff on one of them!!! As for Searays, I have seen enough secondhand ones to know that I wouldn't buy one of them either!
One of the reasons Pascoe is so influential is that there is virtually nowhere else where one can read such indepth, picky reviews of boats. Take the boating magazines, U.S., UK, Italian, French etc. They are so advertising-led that you very seldom see a really rude report on a boat. Most of the reviews I read are Public Relations guff. I mean, for goodness sake, the UK magazine Motor Boat and Yachting has a much-publicised Sealine as its "in-house boat." So do you really think you are ever going to read anything totally honest about Sealines in that publication? Pigs would fly before that happened. Meanwhile, because it seems nigh impossible to find unbiased boat reviews, I am going to take the suggestion and take out a sub to Powerboats.com. I'll be interested to see how picky they are....
PS I do think that when Pascoe reviewed that Outrage 26 he had a fair go - reading between the lines - at trying to knock BW off its pedestal. All I can say is that I know several BW owners where I go boating in the Greek islands and none of them have a seriously bad word to say about their boats. About the only thing that irritates me about my Conquest 23 is that the cuddy cabin door seems designed to trap children's fingers in it thereby causing maximum pain. Otherwise, I love her. Incidentally, she has a pair of 130 Yamahas because Mercurys have such a dismal reputation in Greece...
pjvh posted 07-25-2003 07:17 AM ET (US)
Sorry, accuracy not my strongpoint this week. I meant powerboat-reports.com as suggested by bsmotril.
jim_usa posted 07-26-2003 05:39 PM ET (US)
I have to say, many of Pascoes comments seem to make since. Like the oil resorvoires in the splash well thats not water tight. And the helter skelter wiring/plumbing.
To me, a relative novice, it looks like the Montauk and the classics are really what made BW famous. And it's that boat that is possibly the best of all their boats still, in terms of quality.
jimh posted 08-03-2003 01:47 PM ET (US)
As long as this long dormant thread has been revived, I'll offer my comments about PowerBoat Reports magazine.
Power Boat Reports seems to be quite independent and not afraid to take on large volume manufacturers. They have been running a multi-month battle with Mercruiser over problems with drive corrosion, and a similar epic struggle with Sea Ray over flawed installation of balsa cores on larger boats.
If there were ever an organization who could use advertising money to influence editorial content of a boating publication, Sea Ray and Mercruiser/Mercury would be it. The adversarial relationship of Power Boat Reports to these two companies is, to me, evidence of their independence from advertising driven content.
In some cases, when an in-depth review has been favorable, the publisher has licensed its reproduction on certain websites. For example, Boston Whaler is currently offering a free look at a Power Boat Reports back issue that contained a favorable report on one of Whaler's newer models.
This is just a good use of copyrighted material. An article or a song is copyrighted and if you want to reproduce or use it you just arrange a license to do so. That is what Whaler did. I don't think it reflects anything negative about the publisher or his dealing with companies whose products he has reviewed. Microsoft licensed a Rolling Stones song (Start Me Up); is this a shady deal between Mick and Bill Gate? No.

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Author	Topic: Are BWs really THAT bad?
pjvh	posted 07-24-2003 09:16 AM ET (US) I have just read a shatteringly bad review of a BW Conquest 26 on David Pascoe's web site. It is such a bad review that, if there is anything in it, I am not sure I will ever buy another BW. So what is going on? Is this man Pascoe some lone nutter trying to take on the big boys? Or is there any sense in what he says? You'll find the review at www.boatsurvey.com. All thoughts gratefully received
pjvh	posted 07-24-2003 09:17 AM ET (US) sorry, I meant Outrage 26.
DCM	posted 07-24-2003 09:46 AM ET (US) Do you have any specific questions, or are you just trolling with that post? Dan
pjvh	posted 07-24-2003 10:02 AM ET (US) Trolling? Unfamiliar with the expression. No, I was just surprised to read such a bad review of a BW when I had always thought they were of pretty exceptional quality. I own a Conquest 23 and it seems to be okay but what Pascoe seems to be saying is that the hulls are actually not that brilliant and that they are far too expensive for what they are. Frankly, having read Pascoie's review I am going to think twice about a BW 26. Is he on the right track or is he talking through his exhaust, so to speak?
bsmotril	posted 07-24-2003 10:04 AM ET (US) They are so bad that Whaler owners recorded the highest ever level of customer satisfaction in the PowerBoat reports survey of boat owners by individual brands. Powerboats report is an independant publication that accepts no advertising dollars. It is the "Consumer Reports" of the boating world. Pascoe is always down on pretty much any type of cored or non-traditional construction. Read about 20 of his reports and you'll get a good idea of where his bias lies. BillS
pjvh	posted 07-24-2003 10:10 AM ET (US) Thanks for that. I too always thought that BWs were meant to be practically beyond criticism! But I have to say that Pascoe's report has freaked me out a bit. I will have a look out for your Powerboats thingy.
pjvh	posted 07-24-2003 10:22 AM ET (US) Have found Powerboats Report website. With all due respect, if Powerboats Report don't accept advertising dollars and are keen to remain independent of corporate pressures from outside, how come their links pages includes endless commercial concerns such as Boston Whaler and the rest? They may not be accepting money, but they sure are plugging 'em!
Moe	posted 07-24-2003 10:22 AM ET (US) In the first place, the URL is: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/boatreviews/boston_whaler_outrage_26.htm Not www.boatsurvery.com, a domain name that's for sale. I read the review and certainly don't find it "shatteringly bad." It looks like the author likes a boat where he can take the whole floor up and inspect the stringers, etc. BW isn't such a boat. He's also pointed out what he doesn't like about the design of THIS PARTICULAR BW. I some cases, he has a solid case, and BW engineering should take note for future changes. In other cases, it looks to me like personal preference. The review strikes me more as a criticism of design than quality. No product is without its critics. We see them with our Airstream and Harley-Davidsons. -- Moe
DCM	posted 07-24-2003 11:35 AM ET (US) pjvh "Trolling" is loosely described as a newcomer coming to a support forum for a particular thing and posting something to stir up the members, lots of times just to get a reaction. I noticed you were new, only 3 posts, just joined a few days ago. Thats why I asked if you were "Trolling" I'm glad to find we are a level-headed bunch :) Moe, your reply was especially well-thought-out and insightful. Dan
pjvh	posted 07-24-2003 12:34 PM ET (US) No I was not "trolling". As a Boston Whaler owner I was actually just looking for help via your forum. But such was your reaction that I am not sure that I will bother again.
DCM	posted 07-24-2003 03:08 PM ET (US) Sorry if I upset you Peter. I was not calling you a troll, simply asking if you were one. I apologize if it came out wrong. This forum has been very helpful to me even in the short time I've been here. I'm sure if you have any specific questions or requests, you will find it the same way also. Regards, Dan M
Jerry Townsend	posted 07-24-2003 03:46 PM ET (US) pvjh - Welcome to the forum. I'm sure that you will enjoy this forum - as containing those interested in Boston Whaler boats. Normally, the discussion is above board, constructive, objective, informative and friendly. The word "troll" refers to someone who is only trying to cause problems or causing heated personal communications. The term does not carry any reference to young, old, newcomer or experience. As such, I would not even come close to labelling you a troll. Your question is germane. I have read negative reports of Pascoe. My response of his "reports" is mixed - some I think might have merit while others are, in my mind, biased. Seeing the latter, I don't waste any time with his stuff. Perhaps someone with more experience reading Pascoe's stuff may have additional information for you. -------- Jerry/Idah
Barney	posted 07-24-2003 03:53 PM ET (US) He doesn't like 'SeaRay' or Mercruiser either. B...
North Beach	posted 07-24-2003 07:34 PM ET (US) Jerry: Where did you see the negative reports on Pascoe?
Jerry Townsend	posted 07-24-2003 09:34 PM ET (US) North Beach - I mentioned above that I had "...read negative reports of Pascoe. My response of his "reports" is mixed - some I think might have merit while others are, in my mind, biased." Perhaps the word "by" should have been used instead of "of" - but they are both saying the same thing. I have never seen anything written by bona-fide experts "on" Pascoe. And, I am not an expert on boats - but can only evaluate his words and comments on a technical basis. My knowledge of Pascoe is that he is a marine surveyor who is repsected by some and considered biased by others. I recall reading comments/thoughts of Pascoe a year or two ago (and the subject escapes me) that, in part, caused me to raise an eyebrow. But, his experience and knowledge is still of selected value. ------ Jerry/Idaho
jaccoserv	posted 07-24-2003 10:09 PM ET (US) In Pascoe's defense, I see it as this: If you look at a universally well repected boat, say a Hatteras or Bertram http://www.yachtsurvey.com/boatreviews/bertram_30_moppie.htm , you will see that he finds little or no improvements necesary, next, take a sub-par, assembly-line type boat like a Sea Ray http://www.yachtsurvey.com/boatreviews/sundancer_290.htm , he points out obvious shortcomings(like fuel lines covered in flammable conduit). Personally, I wouldn't let him alone sway me from buying a particular boat, but I can't deny some of the points he brings up in terms of why a boat may be hard to sell down the line, unsafe, etc.
pjvh	posted 07-25-2003 07:14 AM ET (US) Good to see the last few posts. I think Pascoe does need a bit of examination not least because he wields such influence. If you are a new boat buyer, as I was a few years ago, and you search the net for boat reviews you come across his website pretty quickly. Pascoe sets himself up as a bigshot surveyor and he seems to sound knowledgeable. He certainly put me off some models. For example, I would never ever ever buy a Mochi after reading his stuff on one of them!!! As for Searays, I have seen enough secondhand ones to know that I wouldn't buy one of them either! One of the reasons Pascoe is so influential is that there is virtually nowhere else where one can read such indepth, picky reviews of boats. Take the boating magazines, U.S., UK, Italian, French etc. They are so advertising-led that you very seldom see a really rude report on a boat. Most of the reviews I read are Public Relations guff. I mean, for goodness sake, the UK magazine Motor Boat and Yachting has a much-publicised Sealine as its "in-house boat." So do you really think you are ever going to read anything totally honest about Sealines in that publication? Pigs would fly before that happened. Meanwhile, because it seems nigh impossible to find unbiased boat reviews, I am going to take the suggestion and take out a sub to Powerboats.com. I'll be interested to see how picky they are.... PS I do think that when Pascoe reviewed that Outrage 26 he had a fair go - reading between the lines - at trying to knock BW off its pedestal. All I can say is that I know several BW owners where I go boating in the Greek islands and none of them have a seriously bad word to say about their boats. About the only thing that irritates me about my Conquest 23 is that the cuddy cabin door seems designed to trap children's fingers in it thereby causing maximum pain. Otherwise, I love her. Incidentally, she has a pair of 130 Yamahas because Mercurys have such a dismal reputation in Greece...
pjvh	posted 07-25-2003 07:17 AM ET (US) Sorry, accuracy not my strongpoint this week. I meant powerboat-reports.com as suggested by bsmotril.
jim_usa	posted 07-26-2003 05:39 PM ET (US) I have to say, many of Pascoes comments seem to make since. Like the oil resorvoires in the splash well thats not water tight. And the helter skelter wiring/plumbing. To me, a relative novice, it looks like the Montauk and the classics are really what made BW famous. And it's that boat that is possibly the best of all their boats still, in terms of quality.
jimh	posted 08-03-2003 01:47 PM ET (US) As long as this long dormant thread has been revived, I'll offer my comments about PowerBoat Reports magazine. Power Boat Reports seems to be quite independent and not afraid to take on large volume manufacturers. They have been running a multi-month battle with Mercruiser over problems with drive corrosion, and a similar epic struggle with Sea Ray over flawed installation of balsa cores on larger boats. If there were ever an organization who could use advertising money to influence editorial content of a boating publication, Sea Ray and Mercruiser/Mercury would be it. The adversarial relationship of Power Boat Reports to these two companies is, to me, evidence of their independence from advertising driven content. In some cases, when an in-depth review has been favorable, the publisher has licensed its reproduction on certain websites. For example, Boston Whaler is currently offering a free look at a Power Boat Reports back issue that contained a favorable report on one of Whaler's newer models. This is just a good use of copyrighted material. An article or a song is copyrighted and if you want to reproduce or use it you just arrange a license to do so. That is what Whaler did. I don't think it reflects anything negative about the publisher or his dealing with companies whose products he has reviewed. Microsoft licensed a Rolling Stones song (Start Me Up); is this a shady deal between Mick and Bill Gate? No.