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  16 Duantless - Stern Heavy - (pics)

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Author Topic:   16 Duantless - Stern Heavy - (pics)
Jamber posted 10-28-2003 10:30 PM ET (US)   Profile for Jamber   Send Email to Jamber  
Note: I started discussion about my problem in the '03 Sport 150 thread: http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/001045.html

Problem: My 1999 Duantless with 1999 Yamaha F100 fourstroke (386lbs) is stern heavy and slow plane especially with a few adults onboard. My selfbailing scuppers are underwater. They even let some water flow into the boat, when I'm standing by the stern with a full tank of gas and the boat not moving foward. My 160 does suffer from porpoising, but can easily be adjusted with slight trim or throtle. My big problem is idling in a channel which is only 18 inches deep at lower tides and often has a strong current. I need to trim way up so my engine does not hit bottom, but then lose safe steering control with that strong current.

Here are some photos:
http://home.att.net/~jamber06/bw160d-transom

The 2003 Whaler brochure states max engine weight is 410lbs.
Whaler is selling the new 160 with the 115 Merc fourstorke, which weighs 386lbs also. I know they filled in the notch in the transom in 2002, would that make a big improvment?

My engine trimmed level draws 34 inches of water at rest.

Does anybody have similar problems with the same boat and same weight engine or please have a solution?
I considered a jack plate, but I do not want to add anymore weight in the stern.
Raising the engine two holes... will it upset the handling and cooling?

I love this boat and cannot say enough how nice it rides in rough water. Plus I clocked it at 42.3mph on the gps this weekend (3/4 tank of gas, bimini up, light chop, 300lbs of humans at 6000rpms), I just feel it needs more water than it should due to being stern heavy.

Thanks,
James

Dick posted 10-29-2003 12:07 AM ET (US)     Profile for Dick  Send Email to Dick     
When I was working for the Whaler dealership we had www.tannermfg.com make some ss filler plates for the notched transoms. They did help.
Drop him an e-mail, he should have the specs and is a great guy to deal with.

Dick

Richard Quinlivan posted 10-29-2003 09:37 AM ET (US)     Profile for Richard Quinlivan  Send Email to Richard Quinlivan     
I believe the notch in the transom illustrated in Jamber's picture was to provide a built in equivelent of a setback bracket. This should allow the motor to be mounted even higher than with an unnotched transom because the water stream is rising aft of the transon. Many bass boats have this sort of notch. This is good for top speed but certainly is not a help for hole shot or buoyancy at the stern.

Dick

Perry posted 10-29-2003 11:43 AM ET (US)     Profile for Perry  Send Email to Perry     
Interesting pics. When I had my boat (2002 Dauntless 160 w/ 373 lb Honda 90) in the water this past weekend, I noticed that the scuppers are above water with a full tank of fuel. I went into the garage this morning, leveled my motor so the tip of the fin is touching the floor and measured the distance from the floor to the water line (bottom of the scuppers). It measured 27". Are you sure yours draws 34"? My anti-ventilation plate is 1 1/2" above the bottom of the hull but there souldn't be that big of a difference between the 2 boats.
Jamber posted 10-29-2003 12:11 PM ET (US)     Profile for Jamber  Send Email to Jamber     
Perry,

Moe emailed me and questioned my 34" also...

I guess I may have measured wrong but, my thinking was the 20" shaft which is the AV plate down to the skeg (is this right?). I measured the best I could from the top of the av plate to the water line while I was standing on the transom and I'm pretty sure it said 13.75" (so that 13.75" plus the 20 is 33.75' then with the thickness of the av plate, I rounded up to 34" thinking if I had a full tank of gas and my wife with me.). I very well may have made a mistake somewhere. But I thought it all adds up. Whaler says my hull draft is 11", plus 20" shaft, that equals 31" (is this right?). Then my boat sits real low in the water, as you can see by the scuppers being below the water line, that could make up for the 2.75"....? This is what I thought. Like I said I may be wrong.

I do know the scuppers are below the water and I have trouble in shallow water where my neighboors with other boats do not.

How far above the water line are your scuppers?
Your Honda 90 compared to my Yamaha F100. is 13 lbs lighter.
I do not think an extra 13 lbs in motor weight would lower my transom so much compared to yours...?

-James

Barry posted 10-29-2003 01:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for Barry  Send Email to Barry     
I would raise your engine 2 holes. It won't upset the cooling and shouldn't mess up the handling. That should reduce your draft by 1-1/2". It may also help with the porpoising.

The weight of your engine may not include the weight of the prop. If that's the case you are closer to the limit than you think.

The only way to fix the stern heavy trim is to move (or add) more weight forward.

Jamber posted 10-29-2003 01:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for Jamber  Send Email to Jamber     
Thanks Barry, I have been thinking of that option of going up a hole or two. Not sure what I could move towards the bow, I really do not want to add any more weight. Maybe I need to repower with a lighter engine if I want to keep the boat.

Thanks for the link Dick, I would consider that but then it will add more weight and hurt my option to raise the engine acording to Richard Q's reasoning for the notch. I could the filler helping the hole shot but my main problem is engine/transom height at idle speed.

Perry, did that 373lbs include your prop?


Perry posted 10-29-2003 02:38 PM ET (US)     Profile for Perry  Send Email to Perry     
James, My motor weight is dry (no oil) or prop. I do, however, keep two 15 lb. dumbells in a sealed, padded pouch in my anchor well. My custon t-top adds about 100 lbs to the console area. For a view look here:
http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/carsonperry/lst?&.dir=/Whaler&.src=ph&.view=t

My water line is about 1/4" below the scuppers with full tank of fuel. Why don't you measure from your waterline (top of scuppers) to the bottom of your skeg. This will give you a more accurate estimate of how deep below the surface your skeg is. Maybe the hull change on my boat makes some difference but it can't be that much.

Barry has a good idea, raise your motor. Do it one hole at a time until your prop breakes loose in tight turns. Just make sure that your intake is below the surface.

My boat has a good hole shot and porpoises very little but I wish it went as fast as yours at WOT. I get 40 mph with 16 pitch and 38 mph with a 15 pitch.

Barry posted 10-29-2003 05:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for Barry  Send Email to Barry     
I would move the engine up two holes to start. That is based on where the engine is now and because of the notch. You can always lower it if you have to.

I think adding weight forward would be an interesting experiment. The additional weight shouldn't be a problem. After all the boat has a capacity of 1,700lbs. If you subtract 400(engine), 270(fuel), 50(battery) that still leaves 980 for people AND additional weight.

Think of it this way, your engine isn't too heavy, you just have a balance problem. There is too much weight on one end of the teeter-toter. You get the boat back in balance by adding weight to the other end. Obviously the most effective place to add the weight is as close to the other end (bow) as possible. Therefore the anchor locker is the logical location.

So try some padded dumbbells, a bag of sand, or something. The only downside is loss of space in the anchor locker. Maybe you just need to replace you anchor rope with chain? ;-)

andygere posted 10-29-2003 05:44 PM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
Jamber,
Lift up the aft jump seat and look inside the bilge with a flashlight. It sounds like there may be some water in the bilge, which can add a lot of weight to the stern of the boat. There is a small plastic threaded plug in the notch area of the transom. With the boat out of the water, remove the plug and the bilge will drain completely. Often the bilge pump and/or switch are not mounted on the bottom of the bilge, and a great deal of water remains all the time. It can get in from rain, spray, boat washing etc. under the plastic seat bottoms of the jump seats. My dad's Dauntless 16 has a Merc 90 2-stroke, but even with people sitting in the jump seats we don't have water coming back through the scuppers.
Jamber posted 10-29-2003 05:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for Jamber  Send Email to Jamber     
Thanks guys, I think I will try moving the engine up the two holes, and add some weight in the bow, I guess having a very light weight Fortress anchor does not help the balance, but it is so easy to handle... I think I still have a little bit more room up there. I will tackle this within a a few months and post my results.

Great looking boat Perry! I always liked the look of a T top and the idea of no straps and supports to get in the way! But down here the Florida Sun can be intense and the Bimini I have (non Whaler) is pretty big and offers more shade then a T top.
My dad has a 130 Honda on his 1988 18 Outrage, great motor, great boat! I originally wanted the Honda 115, but the salesman at one Whlaer dealership told me it was too heavy for the 16. I wanted a fourstroke and ended up the the Yamaha, which I really like, except the weight.

This adding weight reminds me of my brother inlaw, he is into Wakeboarding and has about an extra 100 lbs. in sand in his bow, plus a "fat sack"(big bag of water) in the back of his Moomba Ski Boat for a bigger wake to get more air.
Check him out:
http://home.comcast.net/~jamber06/hyperlitemike/

Thanks guys for your help!

More comments/feedback welcomed.


Jamber posted 10-29-2003 06:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for Jamber  Send Email to Jamber     
Thanks Andy, I always remove the plug let any water drain out and even soak up any water behind the seats or in the bottom of the bilge with an old towel, I keep the boat out of the water and do this every time.
-James
cmarques posted 10-29-2003 10:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for cmarques  Send Email to cmarques     
Jamber
I have a 2002 160 with the transom notch and a 90 Mercury 2 stroke- Since I didn't wash the other day i checked and found the water line above the scuppers by about 1" I sometimes get a little water at back of deck but never gave it much thought. I should have out this Sunday and will see how deep it drafts and how it sits in the water.
It would porpose quite a bit but after putting Doel Fins on it got better. I've been very happy with mine too and have been out in very rough water with it.

Chris

Jamber posted 10-29-2003 11:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for Jamber  Send Email to Jamber     
Thanks Chris, Maybe the notch has a lot to do with it.
Your engine is only 303lbs?
I see you may come down for the Kice Rendezvous, we will try to make it aswell. Were in Orlando do you live and boat? We spent a few years in Oviedo. Hope to meet you next weekend.

-James

Ventura16 posted 10-30-2003 10:17 AM ET (US)     Profile for Ventura16  Send Email to Ventura16     
I have the Ventura 16, the dual-console version of the Dauntless 160, with the same hull. My Ventura has the hull notch and a Mercury 90 2 stroke (305 lbs.). It never has water through the scuppers even with a couple of heavyweights like me and my fishing buddy standing in the stern. Of course, the weight distribution of the Ventura is probably a bit different with the dual consoles and the bow seats. I did add a Doel-Fin for help in planing...it made a big difference.

Tom

cmarques posted 10-30-2003 09:20 PM ET (US)     Profile for cmarques  Send Email to cmarques     
Jamber
Hope to meet you next weekend- we live south of UCF- pass through Oviedo all the time going up to the St.John's river. Usually put in at Lake Monroe and head toward Blue Spring or Highbanks and sometimes up to Shady Oak if we have all day (too many manatee zones). Also try to get to the coast near Titusville and Port Canaveral.

Chris

Marlin posted 10-31-2003 07:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for Marlin  Send Email to Marlin     
Jamber,

With a full tank of gas and in fresh water, my 2003 160 Dauntless floats with the scuppers about 1/2 submerged, pretty much just like yours. See:
http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/marlinsail/vwp?.dir=/GoldenDaze&.dnm=160daunt_stern_in_water.JPG.jpg&.view=t

My engine is a Mercury 115 4-stroke, which is listed with a "dry weight" (no oil, prop, rigging, etc) of 386 pounds, same as yours. My newer hull does not have the transom notch that you have, which looks like the better part of a cubic foot in volume. That means you have maybe 50-60 pounds less bouancy in the stern than I do, but it sure looks like you're floating at just about exactly the same point I am. Are you in salt water or fresh? In salt water I think my scuppers are just above the waterline. Two people in the stern will bring just a little bit of water into the cockpit in fresh water, but not in salt.

As others have mentioned, your motor could probably be a little higher. Mine is about the same height as yours, and that's without the additional setback provided by the notch. For a fairly poor picture of my engine height, see:

http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/marlinsail/vwp?.dir=/GoldenDaze&.dnm=160daunt_sternside.JPG.jpg&.view=t

-Bob

JohnJ80 posted 11-01-2003 01:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for JohnJ80  Send Email to JohnJ80     
My 1995 Dauntless 15 floats with the scuppers just above the waterline - pretty much as described for the 16. If I go to the back of the boat and stand on the aft platform to one side or another, they will go so that the waterline runs through them. looking like the pictures. This is normal for me, but not empty like yours. That is probably the difference in boats.

I noticed from both the pictures that you both posted that you have the flapper style of scuppers. I don't think it is possible for these things not to leak. Almost anything you do to them or if they get a little old, will cause them to leak. Switch to the Rabud ping pong ball style (available at Boat US for ~$10). This will do a lot to help prevent the water intrustion. Mine fit right in the existing mounting holes so it was no big deal.

J

Jamber posted 11-02-2003 10:18 AM ET (US)     Profile for Jamber  Send Email to Jamber     
Thanks everyone for the feedback and thanks for the photos Bob!
I can live with a little water in the stern, it is more the draft that bothers me. I may still take a look into the ping pong scuppers John, thanks for the suggestion.

I will try to raise my engine two holes. I will get some hard numbers on rpm, speed and trim position before I raise it, for comparison. I will post results. I will most likey do this in a month or two.

See you on Saturday Chris.

Thanks,
James

Perry posted 11-06-2003 12:59 AM ET (US)     Profile for Perry  Send Email to Perry     
James, I took a pic today so you can compare the water line at the rear of my Dauntless 160 with 373 lb motor with your boat. I think raising your motor 2 holes is a good idea. Let us know how it works out.

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/carsonperry/vwp?.dir=/Whaler&.dnm=boat+004.jpg&.view=t

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/carsonperry/vwp?.dir=/Whaler&.dnm=boat+005.jpg&.view=t

Marlin posted 11-06-2003 08:19 AM ET (US)     Profile for Marlin  Send Email to Marlin     
Perry,

If I remember right, you have an older hull with the notched transom, right? And in Hawaii (you dog you!) it's obviously in salt water. Looks about how my un-notched 115-4S sits in salt water. I'd say everybody's pictures tell a real consistent story on the 160 Dauntless static waterline.

Love that T-top...

-Bob

Perry posted 11-06-2003 12:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for Perry  Send Email to Perry     
Marlin, Late 2002 model without notch in transom. Yea the water is salty and warm too :)
Jamber posted 11-07-2003 01:56 PM ET (US)     Profile for Jamber  Send Email to Jamber     
Thanks Perry!

-James

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