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Author Topic:   Asking For Better Power Options from BW
sarnuk posted 12-03-2003 06:41 AM ET (US)   Profile for sarnuk  

I have just written an email and sent it to CBennet at Boston Whaler. In this email I have lamented the lack of 4stroke power choices in the Nantucket; ie 115hp or none.

I have made asuggestion for some kind of promotion, where BW will give Nantucket owners a credit of 85% of what they paid for the exisiting 115HP 4stroke on their boats towards a higher HP 4 stroke option, when it comes available.

IE if a 115hp Mercury 4 stroke costs $8500, then give me a $7225 credit towards an exchange of that motor towards the higher HP 4 stroke when it comes out.

What do you guys think about that? Would this enhance your feelings about BW responsiveness to our needs? Is that 15% number I came up with fair? reasonable? too low? too high? ARe Any of you holding back purchases of this boat because you lack 4 stroke power choices? Is this issue unique to the Nantucket?

Thanks Sal

Moe posted 12-03-2003 09:16 AM ET (US)     Profile for Moe  Send Email to Moe     
Sal, they'd have to give you less than they could resell it for and cover the logistics costs involved. And at a corporate level, they'd have to wholesale it to a reseller of used motors.

I doubt they could give you anywhere near $7225. Ed's sells new 115 Mercs and Yamahas for $7299. I suspect they could give you 50% of that $8500, at the most.

Your best option may be to try to sell it to a 170 owner looking for a little lower cost way to get to 115. That way, you might get at least half the probably $10,000 cost of a new 150 at Ed's.


lhg posted 12-03-2003 01:36 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
You could also wait about a year for Mercury's hot new lightweight 1.7 liter 150HP "Project X" 4-stroke. If what I have been hearing is correct, it will be 150 horses of pure "sayonara".
Moe posted 12-03-2003 02:31 PM ET (US)     Profile for Moe  Send Email to Moe     
Larry, I sorta got the idea from Sal's post that this is what he wants to do. That'll be the first Merc four-stroke 150, which is what he wants to trade up to. Wise move, I'd say.


tlynch posted 12-03-2003 02:53 PM ET (US)     Profile for tlynch  Send Email to tlynch     
I would think that your best bet would be to negotiate a trade in value for your engine with YOUR DEALER, BEFORE you buy the boat. The deal would be structured so that the dealer would guarentee X trade in value for your engine, in one year, if it had under Y hours on it, and you are trading it in for a new engine from his dealership.

I might start the conversation with something along the lines of, "I think I'll get this boat ... ... but outboards depreciate so quickly and I will want to get a Merc 150 4S when they come out." He will then try to tell you that they really don't depreciate as much as you think, and then you go from there.

I bet you could work something like this out that made you happy and sold the dealer a boat.

I would like to point out that I have never boat a new boat so I have no clue what I am talking about. I do tend to get pretty good deals on stuff though.


TRAFFICLAWYER posted 12-03-2003 03:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
Sounds as though your not entirely happy with your choice of motors. ???? Why did you buy it? If you wanted a 150 4 stroke yamaha you could have had one,or a 140 Suzuki or any other engine,etec,merc Whatever. It's simply in your bargainng power BEFORE you sign the sales agreement.
sarnuk posted 12-03-2003 04:51 PM ET (US)     Profile for sarnuk    
Thanks gents,

Traffic I do want the boat. And i tested it in the water and it was fine. I take delivery weeks from now and in my anxiety I flip flop on whether the engine will be strong enough (I think i may have read too many posts on too many boating forums).

That said. BW only sells Mercurys on their boats. I had asked about putting a Yamaha 4stroke150 as well as a Suzuki 4 stroke 140hp on the boat. They wont do it. It will only come from the factory with the Mercury options. And the warranty will be honored only as such. Hence my thread. Big dollar puchase for me...I'd rather get it right. And while the 115 4stroke tested fine, and the dealer was very assuring that BW has tested the boat with that engine extensively, my minds waffles. It doesn't waffle enough for me to reconsider my decision, but I thought that it would be spectacular if BW would makee allowances for people who wanted a 4 stroke on the boat, but more than the 115 currently offered.

No sour grapes. Love the boat. I have been doing my homework on it, and I don't want to wait a year and change for the "double secret probation project x" motor to come out.

I just thought for the amount of money for that size boat new, BW might might might do something creative to make me happy, as well as entice many more potential buyers into this model (if it had better 4 stroke power).

CHRISWEIGHT posted 12-03-2003 05:47 PM ET (US)     Profile for CHRISWEIGHT  Send Email to CHRISWEIGHT     
saw the Nantucket run at the Southampton boat show this summer from behind in a 7.2 metre rib with 225 honda. seemed to go just great. get ur feet under the table and run her for a while and Ill bet you will be real happy with her.
reading too many could be under powered threads will not help but she seemed fine while following.
go with your test ride impressions imho if you liked her thats what matters.


Barney posted 12-03-2003 06:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for Barney  Send Email to Barney     
Another option:

I am thinking about running my new outboard for five or six years and sell it. Repower with the current technology at the time. I'm getting tired of fixing older mechanical things anyway. This will leave me more time to have fun. I'm not rich but outboards of this size seem to be cheap to buy and you get some resale.

To add to that, a family member's 6 year old pair of Honda 90s need new crank seals and flywheels. These things were mentioned in a service bulletin years ago but missed by the mechanic. At this late date it's a fight to get fixed. Jim

lhg posted 12-03-2003 07:08 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
I fail to see the value in a discussion like this, another take on the old "you can only get a Whaler with a Mercury".

Well, hello, we all know this. We've been through this complaint (often a troll) a hundred times already. Until a few weeks ago, there were no 150 HP 4-strokes on the market at all, and it is an un-proven engine so far. First year engine buyers are always the Company's test people, for free! And the so-called Suzuki 140 is really about a 125. So what is the big deal? The Yamaha built 115 4-stroke that is available on the Nantucket is the worst performance option offered of the 5 choices.

Both this engine and the 115 & 135 Optimax are 3 star rated engines, if environmental concerns are the issue. And the 135 Optimax gives much greater performance.

I think Traffic has it right. If the Yamaha 150 is the desired engine, obviously money is not the issue for this buyer and greenbacks will get what is wanted. I would quit complaining about BW's sales practices (which aren't going to change, period), buy the boat with the least expensive engine option and take it immediately over to a Yamaha dealer for an engine trade, or sell the 115 2-stroke separately. There are many out there looking for a good deal on a brand new 115, including some of the Dealer's customers. It's extremely simple to change out an engine these days.

I'm sure the Nantucket will prove to be a popular boat. I recently saw several on the water, all with 115 2-strokes.

boxers posted 12-03-2003 07:32 PM ET (US)     Profile for boxers  Send Email to boxers     
Two options come to mind:

1)buy a CPD hull

2)buy a used boat and repower-below is a email to Phatwhaler after I went with the second option.

Hi Bill,

Well hopefully this time the pictures will make it. Our OR-20s will I believe in time become classics because they just have to! The newer models don't compare when you look at the features. Ours have a live well, fresh water shower, 2 anchor lockers, aluminum trailer, full canvas mooring cover, console cover, seat covers, bimini top, 4 speakers/cd, GPS plotter and even the pedestal seats have pockets in the back. Nice touches everywhere. Even the cleats seem to be of larger size and better quality than their new stuff. What allot of folks on CW don't get is that the company was sold because it was not profitable until cost cutting measures were taken. These have now appeared in that only Mercury motors are offered and the boats seem to be less quality and feature packed. The 190 and 210 just don't measure up to our boats as a package or look as nice. The Montauk 170 is still likely the best bargain from the new hulls being offered but didn't have cleats in the stern (I think it does now) and is limited to 90 HP. I hope your motor holds up for many more years and that the hull will last a lifetime. The euro transome in my book is a good thing its safer for kids and quieter by design-not really sure why the CW folks have issues with it?

Best Regards,


We bought a used 1998 OR-20 with a 2 stroke 200hp Yamaha, the motor was sold for $5760.00 and a new Yamaha F225 installed for $14,000.00. The boat is awsome due to the excellent power to weight ratio 2200lbs/225HP and very quiet motor. If you want to see the hull just look at the cover of a 1998 Boston Whaler Catalog. This is a little off the topic but represented the best solution for our needs.

TRAFFICLAWYER posted 12-03-2003 08:11 PM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
Mr. lhg has it right on.

Irrespective of the vendor, most folks do a heck of a lot of research and trials before plunking down the hard earned greenbacks. Does'nt make any difference as to whether you are a Merc or yamaha or suzuki or any other vendors fan. Buy what you want. My 255 came with a single Merc and I had the dealer replace it with the Yamaha's. You can do the same. Although consider that a twin setup at 200 hp has a lot more fat [$$$$] to spread around than a single motor rig, but the point is find a dealer who's willing to accomodate whatever your pleasure is and don't gripe about Whalers marketing philosophy.

sarnuk posted 12-03-2003 08:14 PM ET (US)     Profile for sarnuk    

I dont know what a troll is first of all. Secondly if my post annoyed you, then do yourself a favor (and me as well) and don't respond.

I have learned a lot here in my first month, but damn.... watched a lot of negative crap too. I don't know if i'm alone in thinking this but posts like yours just plain suck. If you see my name on a question or away please.

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG VOICING A DESIRE FOR MORE OPTIONS. More choicees are always better for the consumer. How can you argue with that. And if you agree that more choices is better, than there is nothing wrong with trying to come up with creative ways to get them.

"money seems to be no object to this buyer" get the snivel off your face and be repectful

sarnuk posted 12-03-2003 08:17 PM ET (US)     Profile for sarnuk    
Why did i just waste my time responding. All I got was stressed, and my words have fallen on deaf ears.

Thanks forum for the information I got in the month I have been on. Cheers

Barney posted 12-03-2003 08:25 PM ET (US)     Profile for Barney  Send Email to Barney     
Sal, Email me again. I erased you last. Jim
TRAFFICLAWYER posted 12-03-2003 09:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
Mr. Sarnuk:

Don't despair, you bought a great boat and surely will get a lot of good times from it. You'll find lots of voices on this site with varying opinions, take it like a grain of salt, sometimes these sites are'nt for the faint hearted. I battled with Mr. lhg on a almost continual basis Yamaha v Mercury until we found some common ground. He still has his view and I have mine, but I respect his [and other ] points of view. So unless you're willing to do what I did, and not too many would, be happy with your boat!

Vic Holmstrom posted 12-03-2003 09:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for Vic Holmstrom  Send Email to Vic Holmstrom     
I am also considering the Nantucket and would prefer a 150 4 stroke. If that option is not avialable when I am ready to buy, I will probably take the 115 2 stroke. That engine seemed to perform much better than the other 115s (as presented on this web site) and matched the performance of the 135 and 150 Optimaxes between 3500 and 4500 rpms (25-35 mph) where I would run most of the time.

I would probably keep the less expensive 115 2 stroke through the warranty period (2-3 years)then trade up to one of the 150 4 strokes. That may give Mercury time to produce and test one and the Yamaha and Honda 150s will have been tested for a couple of years. By then their attributes and problems will have been shared on this and other forums. Planning for the larger 4 stroke engine may require opting for hydraulic steering to accomidate the 150 later.

An earlier post suggested selling a 115 to a Montauk owner wishing to move to a larger engine. That may be difficult since the Montauk requires a 20 inch lower unit versus 25 inches for the Nantucket.

I really appreciate the knowledge of the members of this forum and their willingness to share it. Hopefull on my next boat purchase I will come close to getting it right the first time and save a lot of money and disappointment.

Moe posted 12-03-2003 09:53 PM ET (US)     Profile for Moe  Send Email to Moe     
I didn't catch that 25" length. Thank you for correcting my error, Vic.


AQUANUT posted 12-03-2003 11:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for AQUANUT  Send Email to AQUANUT     
please correct me if I'm wrong....happens often....but I hear references to the project x motor as being the new line of 4{s} 150' and above..I have been led to believe from mercury school classes and someone who has riden on the whaler with twin x motors..that they are supercharged...

any educatated elaborations welcome

JohnJ80 posted 12-03-2003 11:35 PM ET (US)     Profile for JohnJ80  Send Email to JohnJ80     
this is just not a big deal.

get the nantucket with the motor you want. Either

(1) find a whaler dealer that carries whaler/merc AND the motor you want and work out the swap - no big deal at all.


(2) find the motor you want at a dealer you like and work the deal out in advance. Have the whaler dealer not mount the motor, but supply it on a skid and ship it to the other dealer and give you the discount for not mounting the motor (approx $300).

Hey, I do this with tires every time a buy a car (option #2). I trade off the factory junk and put some top of the line Michelins or Bridgestones on for just a little more.

If you do either of these now, especially up here in the frozen north, you will get a good deal since not much is selling right now and everyone is looking at year end. They need cash to buy the 2004 inventory early next year. This is the perfect time to get this deal.

If you are in a warm climate, do the deal up here in the northern states where are water is getting pretty firm these days. It will be worth the drive.

I'm a big believe in buying boats with pretty close to the max HP as listed on the plate. You are always second guessing yourself as long as you have the motor plus you are for sure giving up some significant performance (from 115 to 150HP - you bet!).

I mean, what does this thing cost new - a lot. If this whole thing cost you $1000 over the cost of the boat alone plus the motor alone, I would be surprised. If you do it now, you will save thousands over doing this in 2-3 months anyhow.

Keep it all in perspective. That little bit of money difference will not seem very important 2 years from now when you are happy (delighted) with your 150HP.


Jarhead posted 12-04-2003 09:23 AM ET (US)     Profile for Jarhead  Send Email to Jarhead     

If you don't know what a "Troll" or "trolling" is just examine the content of lhg's post. It's a pretty good example... ;)

Perry posted 12-04-2003 12:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for Perry  Send Email to Perry     

Don't get too stressed out. There are people on this forum that take offense to someone wanting a motor other than what comes from the factory nad some are die hard 2 stroke fans too. This forum provides tons of valuable info but you have to learn to take the good with the bad.

I'm sure you will enjoy your new Nantucket. I wish I had bought one but they were not yet available last year when I purchased my Whaler. Good luck and keep posting....

lhg posted 12-04-2003 01:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Perry - Yes, I currently think &two stroke Mercury is nice power, competitively priced for any Whaler, and I practice what I preach.

HOWEVER, I have no problem whatsoever with anyone putting ANY other technology or brand on their Whaler. So far, this is still a free country with an open marketplace, controlled by one's ability to pay. And Boston Whaler's current sales strategy still allows this to happen, since an outboard is a simple bolt on affair.

BUT, what is getting REALLY OLD here is this complaining about the way Boston Whaler powers it's boats. Until Yamaha, Honda, Bombardier, Tohatsu or Suzuki buys the Company, there is nothing ANY OF US HERE are going to do about Whalers coming with Mercury & Mercury/Yamaha hybrid Outboards. This dead horse is now fully beaten, once again.

Vic, JohnJ & others over the last two years, have said it correctly, and have the proper perspective. If you want a bottom line priced Nantucket, you can buy it with the lowest priced engine, the Merc 115 two stroke, and it will get you around quite fine. For ANY other engine, any brand, any technology, you will have to pay varying amounts more. What's the big deal here? In reality this complaint only centers around the COST of one's PERFECT rig. It's that simple.

There is no question that some come on to this site to run down Boston Whaler, it's boats, and/or business practices, for any number of reasons or prejudices, or maybe just the cost of Whaler powered the way THEY want it. How come we have two separate threads on this same Nantucket engine choice problem? One turned quite constructive, a credit to this website, with the performance charts, etc. So then this one got started. If the thought of having to own a Boston Whaler at bottom line pricing with a black motor is so distasteful, then another brand of boat should be investigated, and we should be spared this bickering. Otherwise one can spend money for the engine of their choice on their new Nantucket.

Perry posted 12-04-2003 02:53 PM ET (US)     Profile for Perry  Send Email to Perry     
Larry, the original poster is new to the site and probably has not been exposed to the Mercury only debate on this forum in the past. You really seemed to lay in to the guy and I was just trying to put things in perspective for him. I have learned to respect yours and other peoples points of view but when a new member gets treated in a disrespectful way, it really brings down the whole forum.
j7 posted 12-04-2003 03:44 PM ET (US)     Profile for j7  Send Email to j7     
I will probably be trading my 16 Dauntless for a Nantucket later this year, or next. I will probably opt for the max power, but prefer a four stroke. Anyone know if the new 150 4s Mercs will be part Yamaha?
lhg posted 12-04-2003 04:17 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
They will be all Mercury, from a plant in Fond-du-Lac WI. HP ranges are indicated as 6 models at 135, 150, 175, 200, 225 & 250, in 4 and 6 in-line cylinder versions. Rumors abound about them being supercharged, which could explain the better-than-2-stroke acceleration reports. Displacement for the I-6 is reported to be 2.6 liters, and photos I have seen show them with Mercury's brand new 5 blade "Maximus" performance prop.
jimh posted 12-04-2003 04:21 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
There are really almost no barriers to starting a boat building business. The cost to start up is small. You can produce boats in simple molds with rather low-technology. You can even steal hull designs by splashing or imitation. There are hundreds of boat builders in the United States, and they come and go all the time.

People who have great and innovative ways to design, build, and sell boats should give more serious consideration to starting their own boat building companies. If the boat building business is being run so badly by companies like Boston Whaler, it should be a simple task to compete with them.

Tom W Clark posted 12-05-2003 01:43 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
There are really almost no barriers to starting a software business. The cost to start up is small. You can write code on any personal computer. There are hundreds of software companies in the United States, and they come and go all the time.

If the software business is being run so badly by companies like Microsoft, it should be a simple task to compete with them.

NantucketSal posted 12-05-2003 06:21 AM ET (US)     Profile for NantucketSal    
Hi, This is my name on another forum's website. I had asked JIMH to delete my name from this one, and such I am not replying as SArnuk, which is how I wished I were replying.

Let me start by saying again...that I am new to boating. July 2003 to be exact. And I entered boating impulsively and without prior research. Only this past mont have I stumbled onto this (and other) sites in my attempt to become more informed and learned about something I truly enjoy.

My experience with Dealers is limited. I have posted asking about their margins, how I should negotiate, asking about engine choices, asking about canvas, asking about VHF etc. If anyone has seen my posts they were always deferential and respectful. I have thought many times that if I were around a certain individual(S) in person, a punch or two might fly (try to imagine how you'd feel getting an email telling you in a blunt matter of fact way, with no finesse, to correct your grammar and spelling on the site...). I conversely have thought that if I were hanging out with this next guy, or someone else, beers and a good time would fly.

Ok now... the last thread I was on.... I watched many people in recent (as well as historic posts in archives)discuss the desire for more engine options. Personally I won't buy a 2 stroke. The only 4Stroke option is a 115 by BW. I did not suggest BW should incentivize us to switch to Yammies or Suzies. I only suggested that it would be creative for the company, and loyalty-instilling, that when THEIR OWN larger 4 stroke comes on the market, we might get a crack or incentive to upgrade to it. In America we enjoy choices. The more the better. Who here likes the history channel? I remember watching only 3 stations cbs nbc abc. Is it better now? Who here likes Saabs...or BMW's...or GPS in cars...choice of colors.. Who likes buying from 20 car manufacturers instead of 4 (GM Ford Chrysler AMC). Choice is good. It just means more FREEDOM.

Larry (LHG) and Jim (moderator) have thought it laughable that I might suggest that. After all...Sal you got evidenced by your buying a NEW boat unlike us (which shows how silly you are Sal)...just pay thirtysomething grand for the boat....sell the engine for 4k on your own buy a 12k different one and stop belly-ahing. BW is great! If you can do better go build and run your own boat business!

They missed the point, eh? Clearly I dont want to build a boat business, I just want to try to change practices that can easily be changed, where improvement exists for everybody. Brunswick margins are healthy. The 35k boat i bought cost them $12.5k, and the dealer 23k. There is margin to help a small guy not take a huge hickey to get a Brunswick-owned BETTER choice when it comes out.

And regarding status quo's and the questioning for change, be it in Microsft (Tom) or BW, Both firms have been in antitrust suits fyi. Innovation occurs by asking questions and asking what if. I sense that if the old guard here (the ones who have enjoyed ticking me off) were to be put in charge of any project requiring change for the better, there might be 190 conversations about it, bickering, and the end result would be the same old. Bureacracy. Status Quo. Kind of like this site (or maybe Monarchy).

I have learned a great deal about the Nantucket here, encountered some wonderful selfless people who have offered kind words and good advice JUST BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO HELP. To all of those gents I say a heartfelt THANKS. The negativity of many posts, especially among a few people, detracts from a great collection of selfless people. Unfortunate. I encourage those selfless people to join perhaps a more open minded forum. One where how they talk to you through chat might mimic how they might talk with you in person. Still share Camraderie... Different ideas... Help people with BW's as well as other boats. Learn more about the whole industry. Hope to see you there. And I hope I can contribute knowledge should you need. The chaps there won't correct your spelling, nor discourage an idea because its not their own.

To close...I quote: " There are really almost no barriers to starting a software business. The cost to start up is small. You can write code on any personal computer. There are hundreds of software companies in the United States, and they come and go all the time.
If the software business is being run so badly by companies like Microsoft, it should be a simple task to compete with them. "

Substitute a boating forum site for Microsoft or BW.

Now that my rant is over, JIMH may feel free to delete this alter ego name. I do afterall understand (from somebody's email) that it is his site. His money to run it. not BW Marketing Money. At least that's my assumption. No one will miss me and that cool... but remember change is good, and courtesy and respect is even better.


DaveNJ posted 12-05-2003 07:26 AM ET (US)     Profile for DaveNJ  Send Email to DaveNJ     
I agree with lhg's post from 12/3. There is nothing any of us can do here for you.

Buy the darn boat, sell the merc yourself and put whatever the heck you want on it. But don't come back complaining that, "Gee, BW was right. I wish I had my Merc back....".

cape_rover posted 12-05-2003 08:34 AM ET (US)     Profile for cape_rover  Send Email to cape_rover     

I believe lhg failed to see the value in this thread. I have a feeling lhg doesn't want to fill up disk space with content that is, in his opinion, of no value. This is no big deal and I don't think it should be considered a personal attack.

jimh posted 12-05-2003 09:43 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Software start up is a good analogy. Think

Two guys (one of whom worked for Apple) invented, started it up, and eventually sold it to Bill Gates for about half a billion dollars.

It is even simpler to get into the on-line forum business. Very low cost. And the rewards are enormous.

Nota Bene for Sal: I you want me to delete this account for you, I will be glad to again comply. From your email I thought you were leaving for good. I can also reactivate your old account. I am at your disposal, so to speak.

Ventura16 posted 12-05-2003 09:48 AM ET (US)     Profile for Ventura16  Send Email to Ventura16     
Well said, Sal. You brought some interesting conversations and input to the forum. I, for one, will be sorry to see you go.

The automotive industry (which is the lifeblood of our Detroit area) has been forced to get creative to survive the economic roller-coater of the last few years. 0% financing, incentives, rebates, lease pull-ahead deals, etc. have all helped them keep the sheetmetal moving off the dealer lots.

I heard about a car dealer yesterday that is "pre-selling" the demo cars that the salesmen drive for a discount. In other words, pick out or order your new vehicle...negotiate a price...and then get a pre-determined discount of $1K-3K for letting the dealership use the vehicle for 1-3 months...then take delivery of a lightly-used car. Now that's creative!

It isn't far-fetched to believe that the marine industry might need to resort to similar tactics to make sales. After all, they are selling a luxury item...not a daily necessity.


NantucketSal posted 12-05-2003 09:56 AM ET (US)     Profile for NantucketSal    

Please delete it. I signed up to post that in response to yours and lhg's responses.

My position is not as ill-informed as you and your friends may think. And the crux of my beef is with the way you and some of your colleagues condescend to others, in this case myself. We all deal with enough silliness in our daily work and lives, so that when we come to "escape" in a different world (ie boating and the camraderie in it), we do not wish to be exposed to more of it.

The sad part for me is that I will miss out on the obvious wealth of information that certain members obviously have, yourself included. Anyway my choice and my cross. Good luck and again thank you for sharing the information with me that you have.


Goosedog posted 12-05-2003 10:26 AM ET (US)     Profile for Goosedog    
I trust the sarcastic and unhelpful responses to this post (troll or not, don't really care) will, going forward, remain in the general forum where they appear to have a welcome home.
DaveNJ posted 12-05-2003 12:22 PM ET (US)     Profile for DaveNJ  Send Email to DaveNJ     
Sal -

Your last post sounds like you are about to jump off a bridge or something.

Don't take every response so personal. Use what fits you. So you did not get responses that you wanted to hear. So what !

You say you are quitting the forum and I don't believe it. You will be back reading and participating in some way because this is the best boat forum on the internet.

merry christmas,

TRAFFICLAWYER posted 12-05-2003 02:20 PM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
Sal: Reconsider youre departure, many folks would be interested to know and benefit with your experience on the new boat.

Don't be offended by the opinions of some others on this forum, Frankly, it should be A.K.A. the Brunswick Corporation Support Group and/or Mastering English, A Primer on Syntax and Spelling with information about boston whaler layered in there somewhere between. So hang on!

lhg posted 12-05-2003 02:44 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Very good, Traffic. I've got to admit, sometimes you crack me up!

Anyway, without any further participation in this discussion, I want to say that my comment about his being able to obviously afford an engine of his choice, came from *HIS* comment lamenting about not being able to get his preferred Yamaha 150 4-stroke. I say put your money where your moth is.

This, I believe, would be THE most expensive outboard that could go on the Nantucket within it's HP rating. This engine costs more than BW's offering of a 150 Optimax. So let's call it like it is here. If you REALLY want your Nantucket with the most expensive 150 on the market, just go for it.

daverdla posted 12-05-2003 03:35 PM ET (US)     Profile for daverdla  Send Email to daverdla     

I thought read one of your posts in this thread last night that really slammed, unfairly, Sarnuk. This is your current version of the post:
"There are really almost no barriers to starting a boat building business. The cost to start up is small. You can produce boats in simple molds with rather low-technology. You can even steal hull designs by splashing or imitation. There are hundreds of boat builders in the United States, and they come and go all the time.
People who have great and innovative ways to design, build, and sell boats should give more serious consideration to starting their own boat building companies. If the boat building business is being run so badly by companies like Boston Whaler, it should be a simple task to compete with them. "

Most of that post has been modified. It's seems you removed alot of the trash you originally put in there. I did not notice an "administrative post" label. Did you have a change of heart? I hope so. I don't see why you and larry see fit to attack someone like Sarnuk.

Your the only moderator on the admittedly few forums I participate in that trolls his on website.


Peter posted 12-05-2003 04:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Might as well jump in with both feet!

Whether or not a customer like Sal can has the greenbacks to buy the most expensive engine is not the issue. The issue is that the current customer and dealer unfriendly, possibly illegal tieing arrangement requires customers like Sal to fork over additional greenbacks above and beyond what it would take to get the desired, non-integrated two halves of the whole directly. To get the engine the customer really wants and that would make the customer most satisfied with their complete purchase, the customer or the dealer has to buy two engines and then be exposed to the financial risks of selling one. That customer also has to endure additional costs for derigging of the Mercury controls (a rigging already paid for) and a rigging of the Yamaha or other brand assuming its not compatible with the Mercury controls. Had the customer had a choice in the matter, the customer would have only had to pay for one rigging. There is absolutely nothing efficient about that model and there is no reason why a customer cannot order in advance the Whaler with the motor option the way they want it, i.e., one of the offered Mercury motors or no motor or rigging at all.

Whether you are a Mercury fan or not, all of us, except perhaps those on the Brunswick payroll or Brunswick shareholders, should be concerned about the tieing practice because it artificially raises the prices we, the consumers (Mercury fan or not), have to pay through additional transaction costs artificially thrust upon us. There is no reasonable justification that I can think of that would support the tieing arrangement as it is just as easy, if not easier, to push an unrigged Nantucket out the factory door as it is to push a rigged one out.

This practice continues because we, the consumers, allow it to happen when we make a compromised purchase. If you don't like the forced offerings, do us all a favor, don't compromise by buying something that you are less than completely satisfied with. If profits from Whaler hull sales suffered significantly because folks took a stand and didn't buy, the practice would stop.

Perhaps a new Whaler hull buying union, much like the one that was being organized here for outboards, needs to be organized to rebalance the power of choice taken away by the tieing arrangement. I say, fight fire with fire. If all of the prospective Nantucket hull buyers joined together with an open-outboard-choice-or-nothing proposition, then the tieing arrangement would die an immediate death. It should be easy to pull together because Whalers are luxury items -- nobody needs a new Whaler.

If I were a Whaler brand manager, if they had one, I be horrified to see all of this discussion and debate happening here. None of it sheds a single ray of positive light on Whaler or Brunswick. While Whaler, or more likely some higher-ups at Brunswick, likely see the customer and dealer unfriendly tieing arrangement as contributing to short term profits by eliminating competition, they have likely failed to appreciate the damage it is doing to the goodwill Whaler has built up in the brand over the years.

Not to enrage the debate here, but if Mercury's current products are so much better than the competition as members of the Brunswick Support Group have suggested, then the tieing arrangement crutch isn't necessary because substantially every new Whaler's transom would come with a Mercury by choice not by force. Apparently, Brunswick doesn't have that confidence level in its own product. Maybe it will give up the crutch when the Project X motors are released.

TRAFFICLAWYER posted 12-05-2003 04:53 PM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
Mr. lhg:

"...I say put your money where your moth is."

I did put my money where my MOTH is. Last week I went to put on a favorite suit I had not worn in some time only to notice little holes in the sleeve. I immediately instructed my wife to rush out and buy some MOTH balls, hopefully they will effect the MOTH's demise. Thanks for asking. MOTH R.I.P.

jimh posted 12-05-2003 06:27 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
The focus of the forum has always been about boats and motors and related equipment. Every time a thread pops up that wants to discuss how to run a boat manufacturing business it tends to boil over.

If Boston Whaler was terribly concerned about the opinions of its customers regarding whether or not they like buying the boat tied to a Mercury engine, I am certain they would undertake a study. Maybe they have! Who knows? Maybe they have studied it and found the results very favorable.

People who want to put forth proposals ought to be prepared to deal with the reaction, either pro or con. Call it peer review. If you start beating a dead horse and someone mentions that you're beating a dead horse, don't take offense.

Also, there is no general rule here that only positive responses ought to be posted. If someone says, "What do you think about ..." they ought to be prepared for people who don't agree with them.

Go read what was written above and see if you think there is something WAY out of line.

Back to the original proposal--it comes down to deciding when to buy. If you know that something you really want is coming down the pipe and will be available in 6 months, then wait six months. Or make a deal with the dealer to arrange a swap in advance. As mentioned above, enough money will usually make anything you want happen.

hugehugo posted 12-05-2003 06:40 PM ET (US)     Profile for hugehugo  Send Email to hugehugo     

You have inspired me. I am in the market for a dual consol and would like to have a Ventura 21 as a replacement for my Outrage 18. But after having to replace the originally rigged optimax, I will not buy another. The only thing I will consider is the black Yamaha. Several dealers have promised me that the new motors are better, but it is not what I want. And with this new inspriation, if it is not what I want, I am not going to buy it.

Vic Holmstrom posted 12-05-2003 06:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for Vic Holmstrom  Send Email to Vic Holmstrom     
While visiting our future retirement home in the Florida Keys (still 2 years away), I visited the Whaler dealer on the north end of Islamorada (in October 2002). They sell whalers and both mercury and yamaha outboards, and had whalers equiped with both brands.

At the time, I was looking at 2 new Outrage 21s. One was equipped with a Yamaha 225 4 stroke, the other with a Mercury 225 4 stroke. From what I have read on this forum, the Mercury 225 has a Yamaha powerhead. I also noticed that both boats were equiped with Yamaha multi-guages and I think the same rigging. Since I believe the Mercury 115 4 stroke uses the same powerhead as the Yamaha 115 4 stroke, does anyone know whether Whaler uses Yamaha rigging or guages on the Nantucket when equipped with a Mercury 115 4 stroke? Or, is the rigging compatible with Yamaha.

My point is this. Perhaps if a customer were to purchase a Whaler from a dealer that sells both Mercury and Yamaha outboards, there is a less expensive way to get the boat and engine combo they want. They may be able to order a Nantucket with the 115 4 stroke and pre-arrange a trade, before delivery, to the Yamaha 150 4 stroke. If some or all of the rigging is compatible and the traded engine is not used, it should save some dollars.

jimh posted 12-05-2003 07:47 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Regarding sales incentives and whether Boston Whaler needs to use them to sell boats and motors:

The analogy to the automobile industry is probably not too valid. Generally sales incentives appear on automotive products that are not selling well. In the case of the target product in this discussion (a 150-HP 4-stroke engine by Mercury), the expectations are the market will be constrained by supply, not demand. The automotive manufacturer is burdened with rather inelastic production, making it hard to tailor supply to demand. Boat builders like Boston Whaler are much more flexible and their entire operation runs on built-to-order sales. They do not build speculative boats and hope to sell them. Thus they do not find themselves with parking lots full of unsold product that needs incentives to be sold.

Regarding sales incentives and whether Boston Whaler needs to use them to increase customer loyalty:

Boston Whaler is one of the world's best brands in terms of brand loyalty. Look around the world wide web and survey for other boating forums with topic exclusively devoted to a boat brand. You will get a good measure of the customer loyalty that already exists for the Boston Whaler brand. Sarnuk has mentioned he is new to boating, and perhaps he had no sense of the magnitude of customer loyalty that already exists when he proposed these incentives to help increase it.

There is a good analogy in the automotive business: leasing! People who want new products for a limited time can lease. If you like to drive the latest car, just lease your cars, don't buy them. The arrangement is exactly as Sarnuk proposed, you reach an agreement about how much of the value you will use up in a certain time, and that is what you pay for. However, I don't think any car lease provides for only 15-percent depreciation. I don't know of any lease deals in boating, but it would not surprise me that something like this might become available.

Regarding analogies to the software business and constraints to entering it, operating system software is not a good analogy to the boat building business. In operating system software Microsoft has a 95-percent market share. There are very significant barriers to entering the market to compete with them. In boat building, the market is fragmented, and only a small (single digit) percentage of the total market is controlled by a single builder or even a single conglomerate like Brunswick. There are hundreds of boat builders, and there is no significant barrier to entering the boat building market to compete with them. Most criticism of Microsoft stems from their illegal use of their monopoly in the operating system market to suppress competition in other areas, such as browser software. Funny, but (as mentioned above) Brunswick has also been accused of illegal suppression of competition. What caused that? SALES INCENTIVES!

Brunswick did in the past employ incentives to encourage the sales of their products. In this case it was to Brunswick's customers, the dealers. For their trouble there they rolled up hundreds of millions of dollars in legal fees and settlements, until they were ultimately found not guilty of unfair competition. That experience might make them wary of offering incentives like the one proposed here. (See my article in the Reference Section on this litigation; .

lhg posted 12-05-2003 08:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Someone here should also explain how Boston Whaler, in the last two years, has moved up to #16 in fiberglass boat sales nationally. Not one of it's competitors are even in the top 20 list, such as Grady, Contender, Intrepid, Pursuit, Regulator, Conch, Sea Craft, Mako, Aquasport, Century, etc, etc. This would indicate that coming with a Mercury has helped sales, not hurt. Bayliner and Sea Ray are numbers one and two, also with Mercury power, so they're not doing badly either.

I always enjoy reading Peter's well written posts, and I think that his comments, in reality, refer to all major boat brands these days, all with affinity engine relationships. They all need this to survive and be competitively priced against Whalers and other competitors. We really can't single out just Boston Whaler for this practice, so let's be fair here to our favorite Company. Buying a Century center console without a Yamaha is very difficult to do also.

There are going to be a LOT of buyers of these above mentioned boats that will be asking for their boats rigged with the new Project X engines, and will be stuck with taking another brand, since those companies, too, have their engine relationships. I recently ran into a fellow in a 28 Grady, and it had Ficht 250's on it. I asked him what that was about. He said he had to buy it with the Yamaha OX66's, but didn't like them, and two years later traded up for the 2003 Fichts, which he really loved. So other brand buyers have the same situations to deal with as potential Whaler owners.

Perry posted 12-05-2003 09:30 PM ET (US)     Profile for Perry  Send Email to Perry     
Too bad Sal will not be coming back. He should accept delivery of his new Nantucket 190 soon and would have been one of the few members of this forum who own this boat. He could have provided lots of good information regarding performance and other issues about this new Boston Whaler.
TRAFFICLAWYER posted 12-05-2003 10:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
Doctored Photo To Show Heretical Use of Foreign Engines on American Boston Whaler Classic Boat

What about the MOTHS?

jimh posted 12-05-2003 10:53 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Clearly a case of putting some cheap Yamaha nylon engine covers over a pair of Optimax Mercury engines!
Jerry Townsend posted 12-05-2003 11:03 PM ET (US)     Profile for Jerry Townsend  Send Email to Jerry Townsend     
daverdla - good observation. I noticed the entire scenario last night and the last message of Jim's. Frankly it was not constructive, not informative, not objective and not a lot of other things. I considered entering the fray and composed a response - and then chickened out and cleared it. And now, just noting your observation that it has been "edited" rekindled my attention.

Many have seen the value of lhg's "stuff". I didn't expect jim's response. And the editing may indicate a change of heart as you suggest - but it is still very informative

Hopefully a few just had a bad day and the CW will get back onto a quality website of constructive, informative, objective and mature communication. If not - it's just depends or diapers - their choice. ------- Jerry/Idaho

Peter posted 12-05-2003 11:53 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Thanks Jim, that was an interesting and, of course, well written account of the stern drive antitrust litigation. I had not seen that before and I don't know how I missed it! There is simple difference between the unsucessfully challenged incentive practice and the current tieing practice.

In the incentive practice, choice was never completely foreclosed. The builder/customer could always buy the Brand B stern drive even though it might have cost more. Brand B was never foreclosed from offering a matching incentive to the customer to entice the customer to buy Brand B instead of Brand A. The customer who wanted X was never forced to buy Y to get X. In the final analysis, the facts tended to show that the customer received an economic benefit from the incentive program and the customer's choice was not foreclosed.

Under the current practice, it seems that there is no incentive of any reasonable value that Brand B can offer short of giving the motor away to compete for the Whaler transom. Evein if Brand B were to heavily discount its price in an attempt to some how compete for the Whaler transom, Brand B would be accused of the anti-competitive practice of dumping. Thus, in the final analysis in contrast to the incentive practice, the customer does not appear to have received any economic benefit and the customer's pre-closing, pre-delivery choice has been completely foreclosed. If Whaler simply provided the customer with an incentive to take the Mercury product over another brand (if it needs to provide one at all for having the Mercury on the transom is itself an incentive to buy a Whaler for some) thereby allowing the customer to retain choice, we wouldn't be having this discussion. It's as simple as that.

To the extent that a tieing arrangement exists for Century and Yamaha (I know they are commonly owned) it is just as troublesome and offensive. I suspect it probably doesn't get criticized as much simply because I doubt Century has the generational following with numerous years of goodwill that Whaler has. I have yet to come across a classic Century forum. If there was one, I am certain it would not get the care, feeding and quality input that this one does.

Larry, can you say with any certainty that the independent boat manufacturers absolutely force every one of their customers to buy an engine to get the independent's hull? Or is the affinity driven by incentives (perhaps very strong ones) like the Brunswick stern drive program that was ultimately found to be legal? I don't have enough information at this point to be able to determine which way it is. However, as best I can gather from reviewing the Pursuit website, motors are optional. No motors are listed as standard equipment as they are on the Whaler site. Perhaps Pursuit just makes engines look optional to avoid adverse reaction by classic Pursuit enthusiasts. But if they really are optional as the site seems to suggest, then you should still have a choice to get a bare hull even if may not be the most economical choice.

Perry posted 12-06-2003 02:53 AM ET (US)     Profile for Perry  Send Email to Perry     
I've never seen a photo on the forum. jim, did you set it up to accept jpeg's now?
TRAFFICLAWYER posted 12-06-2003 09:18 AM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
Mr.Jimh & Mr. lhg: Happy Holidays & Merry XMas!

You forget to mention that I sprayed those opti's Yamaha Gray & put the red Yamaha decals on also. By the way the Mastercraft guide cushions are great for rubrail protection!

daverdla posted 12-06-2003 01:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for daverdla  Send Email to daverdla     

I'm glad someone else noticed. So much for the "you are what you write" mantra of our moderator.

You're right - let's hope for the best.


jimh posted 12-06-2003 02:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Rather than have this dark shadow cast about what editing I performed on my own message, let me try to replace those several sentences that I later deleted, and about which two comments have been posted. As best as I can recollect they were:

"I bought an Apple computer in November of 2003 with dual G4 processors. In July of 2003 they introduced a G5 model--Come on Apple, how about an 85-percent trade in credit?"


I bought a 1995 GMC Suburban with a 5.7L engine. Now they have a 6.0 L engine available. I'd like 85-percent trade in credit. Are you listening GM?

The point I was making: I cannot recall ever hearing of a manufacturer offering an 85-percent trade in credit for a product like an engine in which use causes wear and tear and results in significant depreciation.

I'd be glad to hear of any similar promotion or sales incentive that anyone can recall.

Actually, I thought this thread was doomed from the moment it was posted, and I restrained myself from participating in it. I should have adhered to my first judgment.

15ss posted 12-06-2003 04:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for 15ss    
with all this stuf said, i still think that bostin whaler should sell its hulls either engineless or offer a nother power opshun. may be like ofer a yamaha motor. its just plain un fair i shore wood like to put dual hondas on the 21 ft or that wood be sweeet
lhg posted 12-06-2003 06:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Ignoring the above anti-Mercury troll, why should an outboard boat be considered different in the marketplace than an I/O boat, such as a Sea Ray or Go-fast, most with a wide choice of only Mercury/Mercruiser power, or from an automobile, for that matter?

When Sarnuk buys his Nantucket, and spends up to power it with a Yamaha 150, he can post a photo, like Traffic has done. But if you actually think he's gonna buy one, I've got a bridge for sale too. Oops, I think I just saw a duck walk by.

15ss posted 12-06-2003 07:09 PM ET (US)     Profile for 15ss    
i may be wrong but isnt that a run on sentence.
TRAFFICLAWYER posted 12-06-2003 09:09 PM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
jerzshaw [A.K.A. Sarnuk]

posted 12-06-03 06:52 AM
Hi all...

bought a new BW Nantucket recently and will take delivery in mid January. I chose a 115hp 4stroke, becux its the only 4 stroke offered by BW. Other posts here and especially on another forum have made me wonder if I should accept the boat with only the Mercury 115HP 4 stroke. I suspect the Suzuki 140HP 4 stroke would be a great marriage, while the Yamaha 150 4 stroke might be too heavy. Anyways those aren't choices you have with BW.

Perhaps I can ask the dealer to take off the 115 when it is delivered....sell it....and put on a japanese 4 stroke outboard that he can procure? Has anyone done this? Would you recommend it? How would you talk to the dealer? How much do you think it will cost? (ie the difference between an installed suzuki 140 less the new 115hp mercury 4 stroke that can be credsited towards it)

The salesman at the dealer is a swell guy...I like him....he has told me that I will be happy with the 115 pre-rigged and to give it a try (the test drive did go aint a rocket but its smooth and quiet....and yet I still have a second though because the boat costs so much I figure I may just want to get it right at the beginning).

I asked this question on another forum, and it sparked juvenile attacks; I'm looking for info from pros who have been there and can relate, and not trying to pick a fight regarding Boston Whaler marketing ploys. Thanks guys/gals.

On the Eighth Day He Created The Jersey Shore

Posts: 29 | From: Normandy Beach New Jersey | Registered: 11-28-03

Looks like Mr. lhg is correct on this one.

TRAFFICLAWYER posted 12-06-2003 09:13 PM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
Gives new meaning to that old axiom, "I guess one can run but not hide".

After being told by many on the Hull Truth to stick with Mercury OR Cough up the buck$, this saga is still ongoing. If you're out there, Jershaw, Sarnuk, just be HAPPY!!

jimh posted 12-06-2003 10:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Curiously, I wonder what boat would be more valuable as a resale boat.

Which of these used boats would you rather buy:

Boat-A: Boston Whaler 2004 190 NANTUCKET with factory rigged Mercury engine, all original factory rigged gauges, steering, controls, etc., with 10-year hull warranty and 2+1 (3-year) warranty on the 150-HP Optimax engine, all supported by the same dealer who delivered the boat. Boat performance documented with factory test results. Engine service support nation wide.


Boat-B: Same boat as above but with 140-HP Suzuki rigged by non-Whaler dealer. Boat 10-year hull warranty possibly in limbo if anything wrong traceable to third party engine installation. All rigging done by Suzuki dealer (who does not sell Boston Whaler), retrofitting gauges, controls, wiring, cables, etc., into hull after tearing out factory rigging for Mercury engine. Installation of top mount controls possible required some fiberglass work to repair original installation. Suzuki warranty maybe 3-years, possibly longer if engine bought during promotion period. Also, question of warranty transfers (for both boat and engine) possibly clouded. Boat definitely has transferrable warranty; not sure on engine status Take boat to Whaler dealer for boat problems under warranty; take boat to Suzuki dealer for engine problems under warranty. Boat performance not known. Engine service support good in some areas, nonexistent in others.

Let's say these boats are both six months old. Which sounds like the best buy? Let's say that Boat-A and Boat-B are offered for the same price.

Perry posted 12-07-2003 12:10 AM ET (US)     Profile for Perry  Send Email to Perry     
Maybe the Boston Whaler dealer also sells other than Mercury motors and can do the swap. The only Boston Whaler dealership in our state, (Windward Boats), sells many different brands and until 11 months ago did not even sell Mercury.

My neighbor owns a Nantucket 190 with a 115 4 stroke and if other owners are as happy with their boat as he is, there won't be any 6 month old Nantuckets on the market.

alkar posted 12-07-2003 02:06 AM ET (US)     Profile for alkar  Send Email to alkar     
Peter, the "tying" you refer to is driven by price and margin.

I believe the cooperative arrangements between boat and motor manufacturers benefit the majority of consumers, because they ultimately result in lower price packages for quality boat & motor combinations. Folks who want a different power option, though not uncommon, are the exception to the rule. Most folks just want the best bang for the buck. Although there are exceptions to the rule, I don't think that most folks would be willing to spend a few thousand bucks more for a motor that is perceived to be just a bit more powerful, or a bit more reliable. Marketing strategy has to be based on majority considerations, not the exceptions to the rule.

As others have observed, you CAN buy a Nantucket equipped with a Yamaha if you're willing to pay for it. If it were not for the cooperative relationship between Whaler and Mercury (or Grady and Yamaha, or Century and Yamaha, or...) we'd ALL have to pay more for ALL of the packages - because they'd cost substantially more from the manufacturers. The motor manufacturers help to keep the package costs down - but there has to be a "quid pro quo". They've got to get SOMETHING in return.

Obviously, Century boats would not be an effective advertising beacon for Yamaha if their boats were outfitted equally with Johnsons, Evinrudes, Suzukis and Hondas.

Nike and Buick would not be willing to pay Tiger Woods millions of dollars per month if he divided his spokesman-time equally between promoting Nike, Converse, Addidas, Keds, and Ford. Tiger had to make a choice - and so did Boston Whaler.

Motor manufacturers, like other retailers, want their products associated with quality and desirability.The manufacturer I worked for had an OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) agreement with Mercury when I first came to work, but Yamaha wanted our OEM business, and negotiations were underway. A switch to Yamaha was made within a few months.

Having "OEM" status with a manufacturer is not equivalent to being a "dealer" for that company, it's much better. It's like being a dealer's dealer. When an OEM agreement is reached, the boat manufacturer is committing to the motor manufacturer and vice versa. Our OEM status allowed us to buy Yamaha motors at prices SUBSTANTIALLY below dealer cost. Also, since our brochures featured Yamaha motors on most pages, Yamaha substantially underwrote our enormous advertising costs. Most of our boats at the Sportsman's Show also had Yamaha motors on them, so Yamaha subsidized the exhibition costs - and so on. Yamaha substantially reduced our cost of doing business, so we could sell our boats to the retailers for less. In return, we gave Yamaha sales volume, affiliation and favorable advertising exposure in a critical market. It was a solid, symbiotic relationship.

Relationships like this are not unique to the boating industry. People involved in every type of retail pay handsomely for the favorable exposure of their products - whether it's in Tiger's TV commercials, movies, or McDonald's "Happy Meals". There's nothing sleazy or inappropriate about it.

Given Mercury's leading popularity and market share, Boston Whaler picked it's partner well. That would have been just as true if Whaler and Mercury were owned by different parent companies.

Could boat manufacturers go it alone and refuse to participate is these cooperative agreements? Of course, for a while, but why should they? Their motor costs would jump to dealer cost, and their advertising and exhibition costs would soar. Is it worth doing that for the one buyer in ten or twenty who thinks he needs a Tohatsu or Brand-X outboard? I don't think so.

jimh posted 12-07-2003 09:15 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Maybe I ought to offer a third boat in the choice of used boats:

Boat-C: This is the same 190 NANTUCKET, and again it has been re-powered with a 140-HP Suzuki. This time the installer kept all the original factory Mercury controls, but he used adapters to connect them to the Suzuki engine. Then he cut the wiring harness apart and patched it into the Suzuki wiring. Somewhere, under the console or in the bilge, there's a big mess of splices in the wiring harness. This Suzuki guy is sharp, so he has the whole thing working just fine. Heck, he even gives you a CAD drawing of all the electrical interconnections he made to adapt the engine to the controls.

TRAFFICLAWYER posted 12-07-2003 10:44 AM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
Mr. Jimh:

Consider also scenario D:

Consumer purchases Whaler prerigged with Mercury. Selling Whaler dealer also dealer for Yamaha. Selling dealer removes Mercury for subsequent installation on another Whaler and Reinstalls Yamaha setup on new boat.

Removing wiring and control harnesses is a matter of ease for experienced Dealer and reinstall is if a new install. Nothing problematic. No questions to arise as to service or warranty since Dealer is authorized as to both Whaler and yamaha.

Only takes $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.......

TRAFFICLAWYER posted 12-07-2003 10:47 AM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
OOOpppppps, Don't know about Suzuki, I think that may be a difficult situation, in finding both a Whaler Dealer and a Suzuki dealer, the SAME. Maybe as Jimh mentioned that could forseeably cause problems.
Peter posted 12-07-2003 01:26 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Alkar, I think we usually agree on most things but in this case, I don't agree. The symbiotic relationship that you refer to could easily exist without the present arrangement.

While your OEM situation looks to be the product of negotiation, was the Whaler/Mercury exclusive engine arrangement put out for bid? Were other manufacturers given an opportunity to compete for the Whaler transoms? Was there any negotiation between the other manufacturers and Whaler? Did Whaler actually pick its Mercury partner in an arms-length transaction? In view of the fact that Whaler and Mercury are owned by the same parent company, I must say I think not.

Sure you can get a Yamaha, Evinrude, Tohatsu, Suzuki or a Brigss & Stratton if you want to pay for another motor and the derigging and rerigging, to the extent necessary. No one questions that. They say that "if you have the money, the World is your oyster."

The simple point in all of this discussion is the customer had to pay for a Mercury outboard that it didn't want to get the hull it did want. These two products are not integrated any more than a household washer and drier are or a router table and router are.

Go to your favorite appliance store, you don't see Maytag selling only all-or-nothing, take-it-or-leave-it washer/drier only packages do you? You don't see them forcing you to also buy a lifetime supply of their brand of washing machine detergent claiming you need to buy it otherwise you void the warranty. They may offer package discounts to entice buying the two or three complimentary products together but ultimately the customer is free to ignore the discount and just buy the washer or just buy the drier or just buy the detergent, or buy any combination thereof.

Go to your favorite hardware store or hardware warehouse store and look in the power tool section at routers and accessories, for example. There are package offerings and ala carte offerings. What you will not see is any of the router manufacturers, such as DeWalt for example, forcing you to buy its router and a lifetime supply of its router bits if all you want to get is a DeWalt router table which can accept any brand of router. However, they may offer you a discount if you buy all of these, as a package. The package is always an option, never forced on the prospective customer.

Sure these manufacturers would love to sell all of the non-integrated complimentary things and who could blame them? Besides possible legal ramifications of tieing and the inelasticity and elasticity of demand debates, the smart ones don't artificially force these sales because the last people on Earth they want to offend is any members of their prospective customer base. Forced all or nothing packages do just that, offend some members of their prospective customer base, ultimately casting a negative light on the brand and sometimes irreparably damaging the goodwill symbolized thereby if they don't wake up before it is too late.

To further demonstrate the absurdity of the forced packaging arrangement, suppose I already have a perfectly good two year old, never used, in-the-box 115 HP Mercury outboard (2 or 4-stroke, you pick) that my late grandfather left me in his will. I have decided that putting this motor on a new Whaler Nantucket hull would be great in a number of ways. First, its a high quality, safe hull. Second, decent performance reports for my motor and this hull are bountiful on a highly respected Internet forum dedicated to Whalers. The reports solidify my belief that my pratically new motor will provide sufficiently decent performance (40 MPH lightly loaded!). Finally, given that my late grandfather lived in Nantucket (OK, no "There Was an Old Man Jokes", please), it would be a tribute to his kindness to mount this motor on the transom of a boat trademarked after his beloved isle.

So I go to my local five star Whaler/Mercury dealer with checkbook in hand. I am ready, willing and able to buy this big ticket Whaler already pre-rigged for Mercury (because I know the pre-rigging will be nothing less than first rate Whaler quality and will not in any way cause my warranty to be voided) for my two year old, but unused Mercury 115. It's simply a matter of writing a check, bringing my motor to my dealer and having my dealer take 30 minutes to bolt my motor onto the transom of a new Nantucket, connect all the cables and away I go, another satisfied customer.

But when I walk into the Whaler/Mercury dealer with my checkbook in hand, all ready to pay for exactly what I know I want and nothing more, I find out that to get the Nantucket hull I want I have to buy another motor, at a minimum just like the perfectly good one I already have. I find this strange in that that new motor isn't different in any material way and again explain to my dealer that I already have a motor, I don't need another one. "I'm sorry", says the dealer, "that is the way it is, take it or leave it." I plead with him, "I'm not in the motor dealing business. I don't want to be in the motor dealing business. I'm just a simple consumer that has a simple want -- a Whaler Nantucket hull pre-rigged for a Mercury outboard." "Sorry", says the dealer, "that's the policy, take-it-or-leave-it."

I was also planning to keep my hypothetical Nantucket Whaler on a lift all year at my little cottage in Florida that I just purchased with some money my late grandfather also left me. Since this local Whaler/Mercury dealer was less than two miles from my lot, I planned to heavily patronize the dealership for all of my oil, gas, parts and service needs. Since the dealership was conveniently located on the water, less than two miles away, I didn't need nor want the mandatory package trailer. I tell the dealer all of this and ask, "do I have to buy the package trailer?" Dealer replies, "Yup, take-it-or-leave-it, that's the policy". "So let me see if I understand this correctly, I also have to buy a trailer I don't need or want?", I say. "Yup", says the dealer. "But I'm not in the trailer dealing business either." "Sorry."

Very disappointed, I walk out not making the purchase I planned. Thinking, what am I going to do, I remember that my late grandfather was an Eagle Scout and also remember that the local Scout/Yamaha/Evinrude/Tohatsu dealer is only two miles away in the other direction. So I do some research, pay a visit and two days later I've got a new Scout on my lift with my Mercury motor and one hell of a bad story to tell about my dealings with Whaler.

I find I really like my Scout but am still fond of Whalers and two years later "ten-foot-itis" kicks in. My late grandmother passes away leaving me some more disposable cash and an in-the-box Mercury Optimax 2225 so improved that it produces 249 HP at the prop and is quieter than a 15 HP 4-stroke, produces zero emissions, doesn't require service for six full years and sips a pint of oil for every 100 gallons of fuel. I really want a Whaler 210 for this beast but I'm back at the Scout dealer buying a Scout because I know the Whaler policy all too well and I still don't want to be an outboard motor and trailer dealer.

The only rational explanation for following this practice that I can think of is that the margins on the Whaler hulls are so incredibly low that they make absolutely no profit on the sale of the hull alone and can only eek out a profit in combination. To me it speaks of a desperate situation. Hope I'm wrong.

jimh posted 12-07-2003 02:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Peter--I think in the last paragraph of your excellent article you have touched on an important point: the margins for outboard motors are probably higher than for boats, and particularly so when the boat builder has a very close relationship with the engine builder. Of course, being in the same corporation is about as close as you can get.

It would be interesting to see pricing for some of these packaged deals with the motor backed out of the package. Taking the motor out of the package price at MSRP would result in rather attractive hull-only pricing, I am sure.

Good point about the trailer, too, although almost everybody needs a trailer. Even if you don't need one, how would you sell the boat to someone else? They'd need a trailer in almost every case.

lhg posted 12-07-2003 04:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Peter - In your example, you forgot this would be the perfect time for the Dealer to suggest that he could get you a beautiful, unpowered, 19 Guardian, or for the Optimax, a beautiful 22 Guardian. I know you'd prefer one of those anyway.

I think the inside information provided by Alkar is excellent, and really informative about what's really going on behind the scenes with Yamaha, Mercury and others. These two companies have clearly had the most success in this process. But as mentioned, Alex, BW didn't select Mercury. Mercury BOUGHT Boston Whaler out of the near financial ruin left by Reebock and Meridian. Many do not know that OMC also tried to buy Boston Whaler, but were rejected because of concerns, even back in 1996, that they were in trouble.

I have never been sure, however, that "packaging" is a good thing for the more sophisticated buyer. In the good old days, when I bought my two Whalers new, 1986 and 1989, one could definitely do better by NOT letting the DEALER (as opposed to the MANUFACTURER today) package the boat up for you. You usually got a lousy, ill-adjusted, poorly suited trailer, because he had some deal with a nearby trailer house, you often got crummy after-market canvas instead of Mills, because the local guy was cheaper, and you usually paid way too much for "rigging costs" and engine cost. The way so many used Classic Whalers were rigged proves this point.

In my case, I saved thousands by NOT letting the Dealer package up my Whalers. Admittedly, one has to be willing to spend some extra time, effort and own work, to shop around to REALLY get what you want. I first made my deal on the Boston Whaler itself, ordering from the factory EXACTLY what I wanted on the boat, rather than letting some Dealer specify what would be easiest for him to sell. That's why so few Classic Outrages came equipped with bow pulpits, side rails, washdowns, or Mills Flying Top sets, for example. That's all I bought from the Dealer, most of whom sold OMC. While the three month custom order period was passing, I found the keel roller trailer I wanted, the bracket I wanted, and the engines I wanted, all bought separately. When the boat came in, I hauled my trailer over to the Dealer for the boat, then took it away to the bracket Mfg. Then on to the engine Dealer. On both of my Whalers, I saved thousands over a Dealer's "package", and came up with a better boat to boot.

I think many here are not wrong in not liking the "package" concept, especially if you're a sophisticated previous Whaler owner, and not a Merc fan, the real root of the problem. My point is, however, that all of this complaining about it is not going anywhere beyond these web pages, and/or providing enjoyable reading at the factory. Yamaha is isn't going to change their paractices, nor is Mercury about to sell Boston Whaler.

Instead, just go out an order those Classic CPD's while you can still get them, and install the motor of your choice. Or do what Traffic and others have done on the current recreational models.

As for Sarnuk, good work on flushing him out, Traffic. I don't follow other boating sites, so I didn't even know he was elsewhere with the same hoax. But it became obvious to me, closely re-reading his posts & double talk, that his real agenda was just another, more subtle, dump on Boston Whaler. We're getting used to these now, and more easily recognize this bait.

Actually, I'm glad to see the new Nantucket getting so much positive attention here.

Regional VP

TRAFFICLAWYER posted 12-07-2003 06:04 PM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
Mr. lhg:

Interestingly, Whats BCSG???

Could be, lets see..... Brunswick Corporation Sales ....something...??????

Jarhead posted 12-07-2003 08:03 PM ET (US)     Profile for Jarhead  Send Email to Jarhead     


"Real agenda"?

"It became obvious to me, closely re-reading his posts"...

Are you serious?

And TL. What was the reason for bringing someones post from another site? I mean you and others like you have already run him off. What's to be gained by following this guy around and reporting on him?

Wise up before it's too late and you run off everyone with a different view than the select few...

Barney posted 12-07-2003 08:38 PM ET (US)     Profile for Barney  Send Email to Barney     
I would recommend reading the post at the other site to get the full impact.
Peter posted 12-07-2003 09:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Jim - Excellent question, I'm glad you asked. Back to my little scenario, my neighbor has a lift just like mine. In fact, come to think of it, his cottage is just like mine too. I guess that really shouldn't be any surprise as the whole development was built by one builder in a Levitttown style. Before I digress any further, my neighbor had been eyeing my Scout with the 115 Mercury ever since I got it. By the way he ties his perfect square knots every time I've always suspected that he was an Eagle Scout just like my late grandfather. You know how they are, anything that says "Scout" they just gotta have. In any case, when I told him I was getting a bigger Scout, he made me an offer I couldn't refuse right then and there and we had a deal. After his check cleared, we lowered the Scout into the water, putted over to his lift and lifted it out on his lift. I must say it was a little confusing the first day after delivery as I thought I was at the wrong cottage seeing the ol' Scout sitting on my neighbor's identical lift at his identical cottage (I've heard some say we even look alike). But the next day, once the new bigger Scout was in place on my lift, I knew I was in the right place. Thus, to make a long story short, like me, my neighbor didn't need or want a trailer either.

You see its always been my observation, nothing scientific here, that some folks want or need them and some folks don't. (If you've ever been to the local boat ramp for some entertainment, there clearly are some folks who shouldn't have them.) In any case, my unscientific observation doesn't seem to fit the Whaler model of "everybody MUST have one, at least one of mine that is".

Larry - These dealers didn't make you buy a distasteful OMC motor or a crummy trailer to get either of your boats? What were they thinking? They must have been B-School flunkies.

Back to the story -- forgot to mention that the dealer, being a five star type and all around nice guy, did offer a Guardian. But as nice as a Guardian might have been, it just wasn't the same as the Nantucket or the Scout. The standard Guardian console didn't have those nifty built in water bottle (wink, wink) holders and, more importantly, there was just no sentimental connection to Gramps. As much as he really wanted to serve in his country's armed forces in its time of need, guarding against those looking to take away our most precious freedoms, he was rejected -- "medical condition" they said. I think that bothered him right up to his final days. However, he managed to serve in other ways.

Seriously, my experience has also been that you can usually do better than the packages if you are willing to do a little work. However, under the current package scheme, above the work you would normally expect, you still have to get rid of a motor and trailer if you didn't want them to begin with -- most likely after having paid sales tax on these items unless you can find a dealer willing to trade. That is most unfortunate.

Peter posted 12-07-2003 09:23 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     

Brunswick Corporation Support Group. I see they've already signed you up as a donor. ;)

TRAFFICLAWYER posted 12-07-2003 09:41 PM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
Thanks, I already gave, and gave,and gave, matter of fact I'm still giving.By the way I'm putting some on notice that when I purchase that new 305 Whaler it'll be equipped with either the proven new Merc's/4 strokers or Yamaha 300 Hpdi's. Without any whining factor!
alkar posted 12-07-2003 10:29 PM ET (US)     Profile for alkar  Send Email to alkar     
Peter, your argument is a good one. I agree with most of what you said. I also prefer having more choices. I miss the way it used to be when we could "build" a new boat by selecting our favorite components (as Larry described). For all the reasons Larry described, it is a MUCH better way to get exactly the boat you wish.

I'm sure you guys are also right about the genesis of the Mercury/Whaler relationship.

Unfortunately, as long as it is legal, outboard manufacturers will continue to offer substantial support to boat manufacturers who are willing to commit to a packaging program.

Such programs can provide "co-op", discounts, and other financial support that can exceed 30% of the value of the power package on a given boat - and that support is being applied at the wholesale level.

To appreciate the extent of the financial impact one must "grow" the cost from manufacturer to wholesale to retail: Cutting a manufacturer's cost $3,000 may reduce the ultimate retail price of the package by as much as $6,000 or $7,000. Imagine what that means on a package that includes twin 225 four-strokes.

It would be very difficult for a large boat manufacturer to compete in today's market as the only significant player without an OEM agreement.

Our Yamaha program did not prevent us from selling other motor brands, so we were able to take orders that specified Mercury. Those orders either resulted in a lower net for us, because we ate the cost difference, or the customer had to pay more. Of course, the customers typically thought the dealers were trying to gouge them for ordering a different motor. After all, the motors retailed elsewhere for about the same money, so the customers figured they cost us about the same. As you know, they were wrong, but there was no way to explain that to them.


p.s. I often wonder why outboard motors have become so expensive. I know, I, bla, bla, bla. But compare the cost of a Honda 225HP outboard with a Honda Civic, for example. The Civic HAS to be more expensive to build, and it carries passengers, so the corporate liability costs should also be much higher. The Civic's shipping costs are much higher. I realize there are economies of scale, and Honda must build many more Civics than outboards, but I would still expect that car to cost MUCH more to build and sell. Why does the outboard cost more than the car?

Why have the Japanese outboards been able to hold a relatively constant price position (when compared with Mercury, for example), even as we have moved from 300 yen to the dollar (1980s) to around 100 yen to the dollar today? I think the Japanese brands MUST have had a very large margin in the 1980s to absorb that differential. Maybe they still do.

JohnJ80 posted 12-07-2003 11:51 PM ET (US)     Profile for JohnJ80  Send Email to JohnJ80     
Question - does whaler let you buy the boat separately but without the motor and at a higher price?

Bundling is stupid if you don't allow an out - albeit at a higher price to make up for the margin contribution from the packaging. If they don't do that, then they are stupid. You get excellent marketing input from doing just that. You learn how valuable your customers think the actual bundle is. Both Merc and Whaler should want to know that - it tells them volumes about the elasticity of their pricing.

You also learn which is the stronger brand - are people buying whalers in part because or in spite of the motors on them? The converse at some level is also true for the motor.

No amount of sitting through focus groups will give you the feedback that seeing how your customer vote with their wallets will.

The other side is taking care of your customers. If you customers want to buy it without a motor - for whatever reason - you should oblige them but at a price that is fair to the margin you would have made otherwise - i.e. it WILL cost more.

Look at the car guys - they do it with their packages all the time. Price out the options separately and price them in the package. Point is, if you want to leave one out, you can but it will cost you. That is the right way to do it.

Failing that, if you can't negotiate a decent deal - that probably would only cost you at most (maybe $1000 or so on a $30K purchase) on the purchase of the whole package to get the motor you want (when all is said and done), you aren't doing a very good job of negotiating for that boat anyhow. Jeez, this time of year up here in the frozen north, you can pretty much get any deal you want - whaler or not.

That's what I would do if I bought a whaler because I am one of those guys that wouldn't want a Merc on the back of my boat for anything but i would be willing work the deal with a combination of dealers (with the right products), timing and persistence. And I'd get what I want and it would be a minimal amount more.


jaccoserv posted 12-08-2003 12:52 AM ET (US)     Profile for jaccoserv  Send Email to jaccoserv     
As anyone with a new 170 Montauk knows, the new owner's manuals refer to two different setups in terms of engines- "Mercury-rigged" and "unrigged". My manual even has digrams of what the dash on an "unrigged" 170 looks like, sans gauges and control. This animal must exist, or at least came very close to, in order to make it into the 2003 owners manual.
erik selis posted 12-08-2003 05:13 AM ET (US)     Profile for erik selis  Send Email to erik selis     
I guess it's all just a question of what the customer wants to pay...

If you check out Dorset Yacht Company in the UK, (UK Boston Whaler Dealer)you will find that they offer the 170 Montauk with an optional Yamaha 90 2 or 4 stroke engine.

In my opinion the package deals offered by Boston Whaler are great. It gives people like me the opertunity to buy a new BW where we would otherwise be forced to buy a product of lesser value and quality, or to buy a second hand BW and motor. I think more people are buying new Boston Whaler boats than ever before. To me it made no difference what so ever what brand of motor or what kind of trailer was included in the package. It was the boat itself that counted for me. Why?...because it's a Boston Whaler and I had confidence that Boston Whaler would deliver a package that lived up to their reputation. So far they have done just that and I am very satisfied.

CHRISWEIGHT posted 12-08-2003 03:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for CHRISWEIGHT  Send Email to CHRISWEIGHT     
Just to add a little to this thread ,I did contact dorset yacht in the UK and ended up very confused. I was interested in a 130 or possibly 150 whaler new and had around 7000-9000 pounds.

I also had two engines a 25hp mariner and an old but servicable 35hp triple volvo, so I contacted Dorset yacht and enquired about the cost of a 130/150 all I could get from them was they would like to meet and would put a complete package toghether.

I am 160 miles from dorset along pretty bad roads, and all I really wanted was a ball park figure for the boats without engines. I could have then decided if I could afford a boston or not.

after all the viel of apparent mistique over the boats I decided either the dealer thought I was a time waster and if I was asking how much I probably couldn't afford one, or was selling them like hot cakes and didn't need my custom.

It has to be said that at the time I was unaware of the boston/mercury tie as boston whalers this side of the pond are rare.

however in the end it was an awful lot easier to buy one second hand of the net in Somerset ironically just up the road from dorset yacht. Would you believe it, its got a great big BLACK 90 classic 2 stroke on the transom.


TRAFFICLAWYER posted 12-08-2003 04:40 PM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
having spent thanksgiving over in London and considering the exchange rate, ie $1.50 for a can of coke, Its a woner you could afford toilet paper, never mind a boat, Oh and fuel at 70-80 pence per LITER!
CHRISWEIGHT posted 12-08-2003 05:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for CHRISWEIGHT  Send Email to CHRISWEIGHT     
I run the boat and a 4 litre jeep probably 10/12% of my income goes on petrol alone. should have moved to the states when I was a young electronics lecturer, ahh well on the bright side might just get out fishing for cod in the boston on friday, weather permitting.


cape_rover posted 12-08-2003 06:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for cape_rover  Send Email to cape_rover     
The reason coke is so expensive in London is because the dollar is tanking. Wait a year and the Whaler should be a lot cheaper in pounds.

Chris, I wonder if I passed your Montauk in early Oct when I was going from Poole to Blandford. Looking at the link in your profile it looks like you have done some unique modifications to your Montauk. Did you fabricate the aft cooler holder and how did you mount it - I don't believe there is any wood in that location.

cape_rover posted 12-08-2003 06:58 PM ET (US)     Profile for cape_rover  Send Email to cape_rover     
Whoops wrong guy, it was erik selis's profile that had the montauk pictures...
jimh posted 12-08-2003 08:52 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I shouldn't be telling this, but I have heard that when members of the BCSG meet at boat shows, they use a secret handshake to identify themselves.
TRAFFICLAWYER posted 12-08-2003 09:52 PM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
Mr. Jimh:
Give it up! Inquiring minds want to know! Do they have any special decoder rings also?
erik selis posted 12-10-2003 06:49 AM ET (US)     Profile for erik selis  Send Email to erik selis     
Hi cape_rover,
In an earlier thread on this forum I tried to explain how the aft. cooler was mounted.
erik selis posted 12-10-2003 06:52 AM ET (US)     Profile for erik selis  Send Email to erik selis     
Try this link
sorry 'bout that
witsendfl posted 12-11-2003 10:26 PM ET (US)     Profile for witsendfl  Send Email to witsendfl     
As a MASTERCRAFT dealer here in TAMPA Florida
I LOVE THE GUIDE POLE covers... Keep it UP !!!
By the way Mastercraft's building technique is very similair
to Whaler's CLOSED CELL FOAM in all Hull cavities

Great Photos


Jim K

Jarhead posted 12-12-2003 06:52 AM ET (US)     Profile for Jarhead  Send Email to Jarhead     
Anyone remember the original topic of this thread ?
Moby posted 12-15-2003 12:03 PM ET (US)     Profile for Moby  Send Email to Moby     
Yeah, Jar...
I believe someone meant to say that it was a good idea, but probably wouldn't work because the buyback price that ANY manufacturer could afford would be so low. This would sink the economics of the plan.

(I believe the message was lost in the translation!)

Knot at Work posted 12-15-2003 01:44 PM ET (US)     Profile for Knot at Work  Send Email to Knot at Work     
I love my Whaler and I am thrilled with my 90 hp 4 stroke Mercury.

I a glad it does not have a Evinrude, Johnson, Suzuki or Yamaha on it. Well not all of a yamaha...

but did I mention that I LOVE MY WHALER?

Peter posted 12-15-2003 05:25 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Knot, you forgot Tohatsu and Nissan. ;)

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