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ContinuousWave: Post-Classic Whalers
Buying Commercial and Government Product Division Boats
|Author||Topic: Buying Commercial and Government Product Division Boats|
posted 10-10-2004 09:10 PM ET (US)
I was just browsing the Whaler website and noticed the link to the Commercial and Government Products Division (CGP) of Whaler:
Are these models available to the "general public" and if so, what really sets them apart from the "recreational" line of Whalers?
I was looking at the 15 Alert, 17 Alert and 17 Utility as possible options to the 150 Sport and 170 Montauk. They do look a little smaller than the similar sized recreational models but are there any other significant differences? The 17 Utility looks allot like the old 17 Montauk. As well, the 15 and 17 Alert look like there are available in a tiller configuration which should add quite a bit of useable room. I wonder how they compare price wise to the recreational hulls.
Had anyone actually purchased one of these these for their "personal" use? Just curious.
Thanks in advance!
posted 10-10-2004 10:13 PM ET (US)
Yes, the CGP whalers are available to the general public.
The 17 foot CGP whalers are the same hull as the old 16'7"
What sets them apart:
There are folks here who have bought one.
posted 10-11-2004 08:05 PM ET (US)
As far as I know, Brunswick CGP sells through authorized dealers. You have to find a dealer--typically a Boston Whaler dealer.
Some dealers have sold and delivered many CGP boats and are glad to do business with you. Others dealers may not be familiar with the CGP products and might try to steer you away from them.
I believe that CGP is doing quite well and that if you want a boat you might have to wait for a slot in their production. Bring you check book.
posted 10-11-2004 09:02 PM ET (US)
...and take your time...ask for a catalog ahead of time too because the boat is started bare hull, and you have to spec everything from there.
There is a $500 surcharge per mold for any other color gelcoat besides the standard "Haze Grey". (1,000 for the hull). I'm not sure if they also uptick the cost for all of the deck materials as well.
You will also have to be "creative" in how you source some of your materials if you're trying to recreate a true classic.
For instance, the railings may need to be sourced from the OEM supplier for the classics, CMI Marine in Hingham MA, as the catalog I have seen does not include "thin" rails...just the thick, beefy tube rails for the commercial hulls.
The nice thing though is that you can really outfit your boat exactly how you want it, and can make it a real fish-killing or adventure machine.
Good advice above on finding a dealer...best bet is to ask your local law enforcement (if they use Whalers) who they buy from...that will give you an idea (keep in mind that some local law enforcement saves money by buying recreational hulls though, so make sure they're buying the commercial hulls before trusting that dealer to know what they're doing.).
Bottom line with your dealer, if you can find a good one who is willing to work with you through the system, you're in good shape.
JimH is right, it will take a few months for delivery as they CUSTOM BUILD your boat...you can even specify where you want extra fiberglass.
I considered this route very seriously before I bought my 18' Outrage (Money was definitely a factor in that decision).
posted 10-13-2004 02:08 PM ET (US)
Thanks everyone. Considering that the "normal" Whalers are already at the high point of what I could afford, it looks like this wouldn't be a good option for me :)
They do look pretty neat from the customization angle though.
posted 10-13-2004 02:40 PM ET (US)
This is not to say they are unaffordable - but to put it in the same price bracket, you'll have to be willing to be more creative.
For instance, the bare hull is really very reasonably priced...the problem is when you begin to spec all the options. (and this is likely where most of the profit is for Brunswick).
I'm not suggesting that you "screw" them out of profit, but the boat can be ordered fairly "vanilla" and be outfitted from home over the winter. If you ordered this month, your hull would likely be delivered in December, leaving you January to buy and have other items delivered, and February - March to work with your son or buddy to install them...and then in April you can take it for a spin.
When I was considering this route - I was going to order a Guardian 19' Hull and console, rigged with power and NO seats, NO Rails, etc.
Consider that you can scrounge around the Boat Shows in Jan and Feb and also on E-bay and the marketplace forum here to find what ever else you need for pretty good prices.
The trailer can be sourced locally or through your dealer for a lot less than Whaler is selling them - literally, you could save a couple grand right there.
Etc.etc...it's not going to be more expensive necessarily, but it will be more work on your part.
Also, it may affect how you choose to finance the boat if you're going that route.
I would not let the dream die until you've really investigated it and evaluated if it's worth it.
I would imagine that all this extra work is exactly why your local dealer will steer you to a recreational model..just remember..YOU are always right..you're the customer. They should accomodate you.
posted 10-13-2004 07:29 PM ET (US)
I am convinced it is possible to "build" a new Classic 2nd generation Whaler Outrage 18, 22 or 25) from a C & GP Guardian, for the same cost as buying a new Post Classic boat, of same size. You just have to know what you're doing, have your own rigging skills and knowledge of how to do it, and where to buy the original OEM items. This site makes it all possible. Not sure whether Merc engines are now mandatory on these models. Buy the boat with only a console, and take credits for all of the other commercial features you don't want.
A few things will be different: The console you select, the gunwales will be aluminum (but can be covered in teak), and some of the deck hatches and wells in the bow will be less desireable. On the open transom models, you can upgrade to a 30" transom on the 22 and 25, which is highly desireable.
Many of the items, such as rails, will have to be done aftermarket, duplicating the original designs.
posted 10-13-2004 11:23 PM ET (US)
To be honest, the reason I was interested in them was because of the "no-frills" hull design of the smaller tiller models. I'm not really looking to re-create a classic (although that would be cool), I was just trying to find an alternative to the aluminum style hulls I was considering.
The boat would be primarily for fishing and a tiller setup should provide more room than a center console while still offering the safety advantages of a Whaler over a tiller style aluminum hull. The only real "extras" I would need would be the ability to mount rod-holders, possibly some encolsed storage, pedestal seating and a mounting area for a sounder.
I may have to look into this further to get an idea of pricing and whether I could make this work given my budget. It does make for a nice alternative if possible.
posted 10-14-2004 05:27 PM ET (US)
It should be a very similar pricing to similar sized recreation hulls with such a no-frills design.
Good luck - let us know what you find!
posted 10-15-2004 04:53 PM ET (US)
"There is a $500 surcharge per mold for any other color gelcoat besides the standard "Haze Grey". (1,000 for the hull)."
I've just ordered a 15" Alert from a German BW dealer and he was very helpful. He even managed to get the hull in white (same colour as the new recreational hulls) without surcharge. Unfortunately they wouldn't give me the original colour and I was not willing to pay $1000 for that. The boat will not be a rebuild classic but a small stand up center console based on the best small boat ever. Price for the bare 15" hull including composite thwart seat is about $5650, they will credit you $300 for the seating if you don't like it. I can pick up my "build for me Whaler" around Christmas...
posted 10-15-2004 05:19 PM ET (US)
Great information - Thanks for sharing. It is interesting to note that a classic 15' Hull for about $6K allows you to put new power and pay about the same as a new 150 (less the "frills" of the recreation line boat).
This seems very reasonable when considering buying a brand new hull.
I believe you can get away with a "new classic" - without the wood, of course, for the same or similar price as the new recreational boats and still outfit it as you please.
The one downside I see to it is that the sheer popularity and availability of the recreational classics in good condition may cause a "new classic" to depreciate faster than it's recreational sister.
I have no hard, statistical analysis to back this theory up...but considering that there are so many older hulls out there in great shape selling for $16K or less (for an 18' Outrage), my suspicion is that you may have difficulty selling a 5 year old Guardian 22 for the same price as a 5 year old Outrage 210.
That said, if you plan to keep your hull until it is more than 10 years, I believe this depreciation curve will hit a hard bottom and level off for a good long time, and ultimate resale would be more than that same Outrage 210.
posted 11-13-2004 11:10 PM ET (US)
Commercial product sales have been moved in house. You now contact Brunswick instead of your local dealer. This is an attempt to keep prices down and be more aggressive. They do, however, in most cases, pay the local dealer a small fee to unload the boat and deliver it to the customer.
When looking at these models in comparison to the new LEGEND series, keep in mind there is a significant difference in the size of the boat. The new boats ride and perform much better. Think hard before you try to save a buck.
posted 11-14-2004 11:21 AM ET (US)
That is very interesting news regarding the availability of CGP boats via factory-direct orders. If anyone has ordered a boat through this method, please let us know.
posted 11-15-2004 02:09 AM ET (US)
This thread has me really wondering if I could get a new 19' Guardian for the same price as a Nantucket. I was thinking of buying a new Nantucket with the 150 Optimax and the cost would be close to $35,000. Might it be possible to order a desert tan 19' Guardian with just the console and rigged with a 150 Yamaha 4 stroke for around $30,000? That would leave me $5,000 to get it close to Classic form with leaning post, OEM railings etc.
If it's true that you can now buy CGP boats via factory-direct orders, do you think I can contact Brunswick directly and get pricing?
|Lil Whaler Lover||
posted 11-15-2004 06:48 AM ET (US)
Welcome aboard to nydealer! You represent Whaler very well with a first class dealership. Thanks for the input. Dave
posted 11-15-2004 10:52 AM ET (US)
I'd also like to welcome nydealer
posted 11-15-2004 10:24 PM ET (US)
[Deleted comments not related to TOPIC.]
posted 11-19-2004 10:03 PM ET (US)
Yes, welcome nydealer! But man, did you stir up a hornets' nest with your comment that the new Whalers "ride and perform much better" than, for instance, my 1988 Outrage 18. I was fortunate indeed to take a fairly long, extensive test ride in a new Montauk 170 before I bought my old classic, and while I loved the ride and performance of the new Whaler, I still went with the older craft, repowered immediately, and ended up with a similarly-priced Whaler with 15+ years of water under her hull. Why? Every classic BW owner will have his/her own reasons; here are several of mine:
Design/aesthetics. The MT 170 is a fine-looking boat which I'd be proud to own. I just like the looks of the older boat a little better.
Experience and recommendations. The classic Dougherty Whaler designs were around for more than a decade, used extensively by thousands of recreational and commercial folks who all seem to rave about their ride, proven durability and performance. Plus, many of the members of this website are almost religious in their adoration of the classic OR 18, and I found myself to be an easy convert. I've put almost 290 hours on my boat over the past 6 1/2 months, and so far I'm in love and still on a honeymoon...absolutely no complaints, and I use my boat in relatively challenging seas, often alone.
Motor choice. Not of great importance to me (even though I repowered with a Yamaha four stroke rather than the new Whalers' mandatory Mercury), but a factor nonetheless. I'm sure I would have been very pleased with a Merc (or most any other new outboard, for that matter), but I hate as a relatively high-end consumer being denied choice.
Craftsmanship. Maybe I'm fooling myself, but the older boats seem to be put together with just a little more individual care...the tolerances seem tighter, the hardware nicer, the teak is great of course, the reversable pilot seats are wonderfully individualized Chinese puzzles, and the classic boats seem somehow stauncher and more utilitarian while at the same time being more 'yachty.'
Goodies. The MT 170 is pretty bare-bones out the door. My old Outrage came with some electronics (nothing to really write home about), nice anchor/chain/rode, compass, fenders, docklines, and boxes of extra 'stuff'--new teak bulwark rodholders, fuses and lights, first aid kit, some fishing gear, rusty tools, etc. Some of the stuff I've used, some still sits in my garage, and some got the deep six, but still...
Depreciation. My new motor will depreciate just the same as if it were a new Mercury on the transom of an MT 170, but I have a feeling that in five or ten years my OR 18 hull will be worth as much or more than the Montauk hull, despite the difference in age.
Just some thoughts, nydealer. I'm sure others here will have a lot to add. Thanks for joining the discussion, my friend.
posted 11-20-2004 04:53 AM ET (US)
Although I agree with you most of the time, and you probably also know how I feel about the 18-Outrage model that you own (and also my fishing buddy's), I think that what nydealer stated is true: The new LEGEND series "ride and perform much better" and also: "there is a significant difference in size". Nothing but the truth.
Compare the 170 Montauk to it's predecessor: much better ride, much more room and just as fast with the same power.
Some of the points you make are true. There's no doubt that the craftsmanship put into the older Whalers are of a high level. But if you compare the new Whalers to their competitors you will still find the same high level of craftsmanship.
I guess it all comes down to personal opinion and taste...and what one wants to spend. Lucky for many boating enthusiast, Boston Whaler still makes a high quality boat at a reasonable price (Legend series), that many new boat owners can enjoy and be proud of. If it wasn't for this the price tag of a fine classic Whaler would be so high that many would not be able to afford a classic. Let us also not forget that there are many, many new Whaler owners all over the world that have not yet discovered this fine website, with it's mainly "Classic Whaler" members and specialists. These new Whaler owners may not be as knowledgeable about classic Whalers and wouldn't even consider buying a classic over a new Whaler. They don't see the beauty that lays beneath. They see the beauty of the new Whaler.
posted 11-20-2004 06:11 AM ET (US)
I would also like to add this to the post above:
-replace 18-ft Outrage with 19-ft Guardian.
-IMO, many new-Whaler customers (non- official agencies) are unaware that a 19-ft Guardian is still available as a new boat. Unless they are familiar with the qualities of the classic Whalers, they would also not be interested in buying the older model.
posted 11-20-2004 10:14 AM ET (US)
elaelap as Eric clarified I was talking about apples to apples comparison. You are talking about a Montauk that is designed as a stable inshore boat to an outrage with a v hull designed for offshore. Most of the Comercial products boats are the old hull designs. This is probibly due to the cost of making molds and the fact that comercial products makes boats down the street from the whaler factory in their own facility. This makes it impossible to share molds. I agree that the old whalers have a definate style and finnish advantage but Whaler has to follow the general public oppinion. As a dealer I see most of my customers looking for hassle free boating. They don't want to have to redo teak all the time. In fact most of my boats are sold with just a console and Pilot Seat cover leaving the rest of the boat exposed spelling trouble if any wood was exposed. This is fine if you want a classic whaler and want to keep it up. Keep in mind that You will not find the wood appointments in the Commercial products boats. These are build for heavy abuse.
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