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ContinuousWave: Post-Classic Whalers
I am really confused
|Author||Topic: I am really confused|
posted 03-31-2005 10:08 PM ET (US)
I need advice here. I was looking through my whaler documentation and noticed that it had a 2003 date on the manual. The serial number of the boat on the registration shows it to be a 2005. I have yet to see the serial number embossed on the stern though.
I went online to see the manual at the BW website and it is dated as 2004 and is definitely different than mine.
Additionally, it shows that inside the console door there is a bin to hold stuff. I don't have that on mine.
Also, I had to have the dealership replace the windshield because it was scratched. They butchered it and replaced it and when i looked at it today, it was fine but i noticed that they used larger metal grommets around the screws. They even denied it when I asked but i had the old one to compare it to.
i was alss supposed to have the boat delivered to my house today and when i got home, no boat.
I am losing patience and generally am not trusting this dealership. Am I going overboard and being ridiculous?
The red pouch that had all the paperwork in it also had what appeared ot be either wax or plaster like stains.
I am thinking that maybe this boat was a demo and that maybe they had to swap out a door with an older model for some reason.
Please help. I am contemplating cancelling the boat. Its not like i have it in my possession.
Please tell me i am over reacting here.
posted 03-31-2005 10:24 PM ET (US)
Tell them to shove it. Their service is not going to improve after the sale. High sierra
posted 03-31-2005 10:42 PM ET (US)
Sounds like they may be trying to pull something. If you don't feel good, maybe it is time to bail. Let someone else deal with it. You are going to look at those grommets every time you board the craft. Do you want that or a much more memorable picture? I think I would slide out of the deal. Look elsewhere would be my personal choice, but then again I am picky. Have a good night.
posted 03-31-2005 11:19 PM ET (US)
Not trying to be a smartass ( or maybe I am) but from reading all your posts, maybe your not ready for boat ownership yet.
Do you play golf?
posted 03-31-2005 11:39 PM ET (US)
That comment definitely puts you in the smartass category.
Judging by your name, you seem to buy many used boats. If that is so, they already have wear and tear so you already have other peoples problems and expect things to be wrong.
When you spend 26K on a new boat, you want it perfect and you especially don't want the dealer possibly switching things on you or attempting to pull a fast one.
I suggest you keep your "smartass" comments to yourself unless you can offer something constructive.
posted 04-01-2005 01:46 AM ET (US)
Alan, the manuals would not be of concern to me; they can easily be replaced, as can the red BW bag. My concern would be the number embossed on the transom and the acceptable condition to you of the boat, plain and simple. Looking at the transom will let you know what year boat it is and if anything is fishy or not.
Lots of good buying advice was given on the forum but none of the folks here are seeing this deal in person as you are. Not that a whole bunch of us wouldn't love to be there with you but it comes down to you. No one on this site will likely criticize you for going through with the deal or walking away since we can't possibly see the whole picture. You are the boss, be decisive and then go with it. Hope you have a good relaxing weekend when it's all over.
Don't take all things too seriously here, either. Golf is not that bad; I played extensively for about four months and had a big time. Went back to boating since it came more naturally for me to pour money into a big hole in the water than those little holes on the golf course. Plus, I was the worst golfer ever to play the game (a fact not documented in any book but should be). Boating seems safer too. I always knew what to do when someone yelled "Starboard!" on an approaching boat but sometimes didn't know just where the ball might be coming from when I heard "Fore!". Yep; stick to boating, you will live longer.
posted 04-01-2005 04:29 AM ET (US)
Your HIN number on your boat will tell you everything.
I have a 2003 Model 170 Montauk and I have the little bin on the inside of the console door. Each year there are small differences between identical models. I doubt very much that the dealer would sell you a 2003 model as a 2005.
posted 04-01-2005 07:03 AM ET (US)
Thanks for the advice. I am a little too obsessive about this but i hate the thought of being "taken". I will talk to the dealership today and if i don't like what i hear, i'll be cancelling.
How does the serial number on the boat tell you if it was a demo or a used boat that they are trying to sell as new. I know the last two digits on the number tell the year of the boat so this may still be a 2005 but how do I know it was never modified or used as a demo. NO odometer or certificate of mileage like automoibiles have.
Erik, the thing that had me bothered about the door was that on a 2005, the bin is supposed to be there but on mine it wasn't. I don't think the 2003's had the bin (it wasn't in the manual)as a standard item so I am curious why yours did.
Oh and with regards to golf, I do play. I suck but I do love it....maybe I should put green astroturf on my decking and use the sump as a hole. Thats a nice little sand wedge chip shot.
Thanks for your help.
posted 04-01-2005 07:10 AM ET (US)
Gotta add this. Erik, I was wrong about the bin on the 2003. I feel silly now. Still bothers me that i don't have a bin.
posted 04-01-2005 07:21 AM ET (US)
Cancel this order, then order a boat that the dealer does not have in stock. Insist that you see the boat removed from the trailer when it arrives from Boston Whaler. Then you can sleep at night knowing you are not being screwed.
The hull identification number will tell you the date of production. One simple phone call to Boston Whaler will get you that information, including the date the dealer received the boat, I would think. Ask the dealer if the boat was used as a demo. If you are not comfortable with the answer, then don't buy the boat.
posted 04-01-2005 07:44 AM ET (US)
If the hull id number does show that your boat was produced in very late 04 or early 05, I would doubt very much that your boat was used as a demo. The dealer where you are buying the boat usually doesn't put boats in the water for test rides until April, especially in bad winters. Chances are very slim that your hull number doesn't match the number they put down on the registration. That would be illegal and probably out of character for your dealership. Unfortunately, your dealer is very large in size and you are purchasing one of their "cheaper" boats. You just will not receive the same level of service as the guy purchasing a $150,000 boat. I know its not right, but that is just reality....especially on Long Island. As far as the door goes, give Whaler a call. Chuck Bennett should be able to tell you when they made changes to the inside of the door. Some of the websites do not always have accurate information.
posted 04-01-2005 07:56 AM ET (US)
Why not call Whaler customer service and discuss it with them? I have always found them to be very helpful when I have had questions. The missing bin on the door should be easily added. If the boat is 100% other than the windshield, then have it replaced again. We cannot see the oversized grommets so it is impossible to render an opinion on their appearance. Make your expectations clear to the dealer and if they will not work with you then go somewhere else. By the nature of their use, all boats are going to have scratches, dents, stains etc, but if you are buying new you sould at least have the "pleasure" of adding them yourself.
posted 04-01-2005 08:40 AM ET (US)
montaukman. thanks for properly putting me in " the smartass category".
As for constructive, here goes
1. $26000 is not alot of money to pay for a new boat.
2. want all you want but there is no perfect boat.
3. Buying used boats is not buying other peoples problems, but most always they have had the bugs worked out by someone else.
4. Your new not perfect whaler cost you over $1500 per foot
5. Have fun enjoy your boat and stop whinning.
posted 04-01-2005 08:42 AM ET (US)
Alan, my '05 definitely has the bin in the door. I have been following your comments over the past weeks leading up to this point and given all that has happened, it raises too many damned red flags in my head. Yes, there are valid explanations for some of the "minor" issues you have had but collectively, they are not indicative of a quality dealer who is going to take good care of you in the future. We all love BW boats or we wouldn't be constantly contributing to this forum. That said, we have to realize even though we love em and they are a high quality product, they are not perfect as are some of their dealers.
If it were me, I'd be on the phone to whaler customer service in a skinny minute and lay it all on the line. I'd say this experience has seriously soured my taste for Boston Whaler and it reflects very poorly on the company as a whole. Do not stand by and accept mediocrity or make excuses for the company or dealer, It is your $24K and nobody elses.
I compare Whaler to Harley Davidson in this regard; both are high-end products that can and mostly do cost substantially more than like items made by their comptetitors. Both have cult-like followings by very dedicated owners. In 14 years of bike owning, riding, and building, I saw many people accept mediocrity in the quality of the Harley Davidson "product" and it used to make me scratch my head.
You do what you want but I'd back out of this deal and go down the road - preferrably to the next closest Whaler dealer. I realize that may well be 100 miles down the road but this dealer is not treating you right. I do not agree with people who are telling you to settle down, mellow out (or whatever) and work with them. If new buyers like you accept this type of service, the dealer will simply continue this bad trend. In the American economy, we "talk" with our wallets, our loans, our check books, and our VISA cards. Supply-vs-demand determines price....do not continue the trend of extremely high demand on the 170 Montauk if it does not meet your expectations - this will simply drive prices higher. Some don't agree with this reasoning and think that if you don't buy it - so what, someone else will. Good, let them.
Definitely let Whaler corporate know about this experience.
posted 04-01-2005 09:08 AM ET (US)
Talk of returning a boat after purchase, for what amounts to relatively minor problems is ludicrous, in my opinion. Take a deep breath and relax.
It is simple enough to correct any of your real or perceived problems (bin on door and the manuals). You may have the correct manual and Boston Whaler may have decided the bin on the door was of little use or stopped making it to reduce costs. I have a friend with a Nantucket and the first time I opened the door I hated the bin. I have an Outrage without one.
You should rethink the scorched earth approach with your dealer. Remember if you burn that bridge and you end up having a real need because you hit a submerged object the dealer may be inclined to say we can fit you in 3 weeks. This isn't to say you should ignore your concerns but you need to deal with the dealer in a non emotional business like way.
posted 04-01-2005 09:10 AM ET (US)
If I were you I would go to another dealer and buy the boat. This does not sound right.
posted 04-01-2005 09:28 AM ET (US)
Here is an excerpt from a recent J. D. Power report on customer satisfaction with new boat purchases:
Many people have raised objections to the J. D. Power survey results, however, I think the narrative of this customer provides some correlation between his experience and that of the customers who participated in the survey for J. D. Powers.
Note that Boston Whaler is in fifth place in this survey. In previous years they were in second place in most surveys by J. D. Power in this category.
This new boat delivery, taken en toto as it spreads across numerous articles and threads, is beginning to sound a bit like either the "customer from hell" or the "boat from hell" sort of story.
If I may, let me summarize so far the "defects" in the new boat:
--the windshield was scratched, possible by the act of wiping it clean with a cloth that contained some abbrasives. From this I infer the scratches were of the type that could be buffed out, not a deep scratch. In any case, the dealer replaced it. The holes for the fasteners were enlarged slightly so a bigger fender washer was needed. This may be due to some variations in the location of windshield mounting holes from boat to boat. They probably are not drilled by an NC Robot at the factory and could vary slightly.
--the printed manual for the boat has a date which indicates it was published two years ago;
--the escutcheon panel for a switch has a legend for an option that was not purchased.
--there was dirt on a vinyl pouch containing the documents;
--some of the documents inside the pouch were wrinkled;
--a bin inside the console was missing, but it is not clear if this is a deviation from the current standard equipment or not.
--the dealer provided on-water familiarization and also demonstrated trailer loading, but only after the customer demanded it.
Alan's experience so far is probably typical of many people who are entering the recreational boating market. It accounts for the high turnover in the sport. One of the publicly stated goals of the Brunswick corporation is to give the new boat owner a better experience, to take end-to-end responsibility. It will be interesting to see how this goes for this particular boat, dealer, and customer.
Alan, please don't take offense, and please keep us informed.
I am anxiously awaiting the point in this saga when we actually get the new boat in the water and it goes for a few rides. This is when the real fun should begin.
posted 04-01-2005 09:42 AM ET (US)
deep breath: exhale
1. As with any major or semi major purchase, follow on service is very important
2. Service actually begins prior to delivery
3. A small scratch can ruin a great work of art, and no amount of "repair" can correct that for most people. we can't erase that imperfection from our memory bank.
4. I work @ a B/W dearlership, Pre Delivery Inspection should have made your experience more enjoyable, I am sorry
5. One thing for sure my friend, there will be times with this boat on the water that you will be able to get past all this stress and enjoy your boat!
It is common in the industry, to make repairs that are at least equal to or in some cases better than original instalations...no sense in fixing a broken part over and over again with the same inferior part.
posted 04-01-2005 10:16 AM ET (US)
Ok.....spoke to the dealer and while they couldn't explain the maunal thing. It has become a minor thing to me based on all your feedback.
They did say that the reason that the bin is off the door is because it doesn't fit with the 2 battery setup. They installed two batteries. Not sure I agree but i am ok with that. Done deal.
Since i will need to bring it back to them for service, i don't want to burn bridges (as someone mentioned previously). Very good advice.
2manyboats, I apologize for my whining and snippiness. 26K is alot of money to me and i was really pissed off last night and your comments didn't help my mood. I should follow my business practices and never react to an email or reply when angry. Never a good idea. Again, sorry.
Jimh, thanks for the recap. I know many of the things seemed so minor after reading them but cumulatively they definitely added up. Bottom line is I have always wanted a Montauk and at this point getting money back would be ridiculous(as someone mention). After 2 weeks of trouble free boating, all will be forgotten. I will definitely submit a more positive post describing my boating ventures soon.
I am so ready to put this thread to bed and want to thank you all for putting up with my emotional displays. Maybe this goes along with my liking "show tunes". Gonna see Chitty Chitty Bang Bang next month. All I know is my wife has had enough of my whining too.
OK...enough on this topic unless something drastic comes up.
Thanks again for everyones support.
All the best,
|Knot at Work||
posted 04-01-2005 10:20 AM ET (US)
Montaukman, a couple of comments now that I have owned my 2003 170 Montauk for two boating seasons
1. My 2003 has a bin in the console door.
2. I dont even know where the red pouch is anymore.
3. I was given two manuals, One I keep in the center console door bin. The other I THINK is in the red pouch.
4. My plexiglass windscreen has so many scratches now for the sun, the lead sinkers and the normal wear and tear.
5. I love my Montauk more and more and will never let 2many get his grubby hands on it!
posted 04-01-2005 12:25 PM ET (US)
I have purchased many NEW boats over the last 20 years.
From twin diesel sport fisherman in excess of 400k to my new Whaler Nantucket.
The buying experience of the whaler was by far the best.
The delivery was perfect,the trial went on schedule, paperwork clear,boat condition flawless. I purchased this boat at SURFSIDE 3 in Norwalk Ct. They also sell very large and expensive Sea Rays.but I could not imagine anyone getting better service based on what they spent.
These folks just run a good, customer focused business.
posted 04-01-2005 12:35 PM ET (US)
My dealer is Surfside3 in Lindenhurst, Long Island....guess each branch runs it's operations differently. I do plan on writing a strong letter to the owner of Surfside 3 if anything just to have closure.
posted 04-01-2005 01:09 PM ET (US)
I have a 2003 170 with dual batteries, and my console door has the bin installed still. I suspect that the installation of the batteries wasn't optimal, and that they could be reconfigured to allow the bin to be reinstalled. I make heavy use of that bin. Literally, in fact - it's starting to sag on the hinges a bit because of all the stuff I keep in there. I wouldn't be happy to have it not be there.
posted 04-01-2005 01:20 PM ET (US)
I had my bin removed from my console door because of the addition of more batteries too. At least they gave me my bin. I also added a Pate 24 gallon gas tank and my dealer gave me the 2 stock gas tanks.
You will love your Montauk 170. The nightmare will soon be forgotten.
posted 04-01-2005 02:27 PM ET (US)
KAW I may not get your 170 but I will buy one when I see one for $3500.
And I don't have my kerry sticker anymore it was pulled off by the Bushes.
posted 04-01-2005 05:09 PM ET (US)
The more I use my 2003 170 the more I like it!!
I predict that you will have the same experience.
posted 04-01-2005 06:46 PM ET (US)
2many, I'm guessing that when Knot's boat will sell for $3500 will be in the year 2023. Will you still be a councilman then?? B
posted 04-01-2005 09:37 PM ET (US)
I hope not.
|Knot at Work||
posted 04-02-2005 07:50 AM ET (US)
By then he will be at least a Mississippi Senator or Representative.
Unless Hillary asks him to join the ticket in 08.
(I still won't sell my boat to him.)
posted 04-02-2005 09:07 AM ET (US)
How about just leaving it with me while your gone?
posted 04-02-2005 10:37 AM ET (US)
Thanks for clearing up the situation with the missing bin in the console door. As I now understand it, the situation with the boat is this:
Your new Boston Whaler boat was modified by the dealer after he took delivery from Boston Whaler. The dealer changed the electrical system on the boat and added a second battery. Because the second battery was located in the console behind the door, the bin that was normally attached there had to be removed from the door. It is physically impossible for the bin to be attached to the door if there is a battery mounted behind it. The dealer neglected to provide the bin to you after he removed it while making these modifications.
If that is an accurate description of the situation with the missing console door bin, then in my opinion, this "defect" is probably not a sufficient reason to cancel the boat deal. I would take delivery of the boat as modified by the dealer to include the second battery, even if he did not include the missing bin which no longer can fit on the door. You could ask him for the bin; it might just be laying around the shop.
posted 04-02-2005 08:03 PM ET (US)
You are right on the money. I did take delivery on the boat. Got it yesterday and couldn't even enjoy looking at it before i had to put a tarp on it (we are getting huge amounts of rain).
I am not bothering with the bin. let them keep it. I bought for $10 a suction cupped bin that i will attach in a convenient spot.
I decided it wasn't worth the agravation and threw in the towel. In hindsight, all my whining was over and above. I just have this deep down hatred of being taken advantage of.
I ordered the Boatsdirect Sunbrella cover on so hopefully i can 86 the tarp. If it is nice out tomorrow, i may go for a maiden spin. If not, i am taking off monday and tuesday and i will def get out one of those days.
Thanks for your help and advice on thjis JIm. Very much appreciated.
posted 04-02-2005 09:55 PM ET (US)
My console door has the bin, and I have not one, not two, but THREE batteries inside my console: 2004 Montauk 170.
You must have some really big batteries if you can only get two to fit, and then with the bin removed.
Even with 3 batts and the bin, I've still got the following stuff in my console:
And that's just the stuff I can think of.
I can't conceive why the bin would have to be sacrificed for one measly extra battery. But I certainly would not let a lil ole bin bother me, one way or the other.
posted 04-02-2005 11:53 PM ET (US)
Alan, I've got six bateries in my console and a bin on the door. And four extra switches on my dash that I don't know what to do with. I took delivery without asking any advice on this site, and you know what, I'm still very happy with my boat. In all honesty Alan, when I look at this thread all I can think is for you to stop worrying and listening to all the old codgers and doomsayers telling you to squash the deal. Remember, there is still 2-3 ft. of snow on some of our members boats right now. They won't have anything nice to say about someone elses good fortune until the end of next month at least. I say this while having spent the last three months in NH, while my boat is under a tarp in FL. Get in your new boat, take it for a spin. (even if it's 40' out) and enjoy what you've got in hand today. Smile nad tip one for the rest of us schmucks waiting out the frost.
posted 04-03-2005 12:10 AM ET (US)
I'm glad to hear she's finally home.
The first time you take her out, let the wind blow all the unpleasant memories away.
Enjoy her for a long time. Do you have a name picked out?
posted 04-03-2005 01:32 AM ET (US)
Nope..no name yet..had a few ideas. Was thinking, "Second Chance".
I had a heart proceedure and had stents put in and so far so good so I have new lease on life and basiclly a second chance. Thats why I bought the boat.
Was also thinking "Salamanda". "S" for my wifes name (sue), "al" for me and "amanda" for my daughter. Thought it ws cute.
We'll see. I was so bogged down by this dealership thing i didn't want to name her. Wasn't sure if i was keeping her.
i will let everyone know how she runs.
If not I will be installing all the goodies, rod holdrs, trailer guides, etc.
Thanks for the concern,
posted 04-03-2005 03:10 AM ET (US)
Glad she's out on your driveway and that all is well. The name "Salamanda" sounds great if you ask me.
Be assured that you will love this boat that you bought. Most 170 Montauk owners (if not all) are very, very pleased with their boat.
Enjoy your boat, enjoy life, be safe and don't let little things make you nervous or get to you. I'm sure launching the boat will be a piece of cake.
You will now have the great pleasure of installing all the goodies in your boat. Enjoy it. I find this one of the finest things of owning a boat...and the good thing about it is that it's a never ending story. Even with a new boat you'll always find something to modify or a new toy to install...something to look forward to.
posted 04-03-2005 04:19 AM ET (US)
Congratulations on a GREAT boat. Congrats on the second chance and the smarts to take some control, think up new fun, and pursue it. There are frequently little issues that come up with owning a boat, just take a deep breath and don't sweat it.
You live in a wonderful area for boating. There are so many opportunities to use a Montauk to clear the head and have some life long family memories. Good for you guys.
The next thing I'd like to see is a link to some photos of you and the family enjoying your Whaler. You've done your homework, you've made a sound purchase, now start sharing your smiles with the rest of us.
Wack job that I am, I'm putting together a rod and reel combo so I can do some offshore shark fishing (catch and release only) from my 150 Sport, down here in beautiful Stuart, Florida. "What, Me Worry?"
Come on buddy, we want to see that new Montauk, even if it's just a photo of you sitting in it soaking wet under the tarp. ;-)
By the way, I have a Sunbrella cover from Boatcoversdirect.com and have been very happy with it. When I first ordered, they sent me the wrong cover. One phone call and I received the correct cover, before I had returned the incorrect cover. Nice customer service.
posted 04-03-2005 05:33 AM ET (US)
I like "Salamanda" too. It means something to you, and that's what counts.
Everyone who trailers a boat has had, at some point, that first launching experience. Read the information in the reference section on trailering, stay calm, and you'll get the hang of it.
And yes, post some photos!
posted 04-03-2005 09:37 AM ET (US)
Marsh brings up a good point about his three battery setup.
The reason Alan's bin will no longer fit is because the dealer chose to do a quickie job by simply installing the second battery in front of the first - without having the forethought to relocate the original equipment battery tie-down brackets a few inches deeper. Call me a perfectionist but for $24K, Alan deserved that.
Alan, you made your decision so go enjoy that boat!
|Knot at Work||
posted 04-03-2005 09:37 AM ET (US)
naming your boat, here are a few.
Well you get the picture...
Enjoy the boat!
posted 04-03-2005 07:49 PM ET (US)
KOnot at work, ver very clevr ideas. I will probably go with the "salamanda"...Salamander in Long Island talk.
I will let everone know how her maifden launch and voyage went. Going alone so it should be interesting
posted 04-03-2005 09:43 PM ET (US)
Glad you got your boat M-man. Hope you have a great year with it and one more thing.... I like the name "Salamanda" a lot; good multiple meanings there.
posted 04-03-2005 11:16 PM ET (US)
Congratulations on the new 170, I'm sure you will never regret bringing her home. Salamanda is a great name!!
Catch and release shark fishing, you are kidding right? How many fingers do you have?? I'm definitely sticking to fresh water!!
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