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ContinuousWave: Post-Classic Whalers
1992 BW CUDDY CABIN - MODEL INFO
|Author||Topic: 1992 BW CUDDY CABIN - MODEL INFO|
posted 11-06-2005 09:49 AM ET (US)
Looking for any background/comments on the BW 21 foot cuddy cabin, circa 1992. This I believe was the period of time Reebok owned the company and Ray Daughertly left... It's definitely not a revenge series looking at the hull. It also does not appear to be an outrage series...the bow lacks the familiar smirk. It appears much more like a classic deep V....
Here's some particulars to narrow possibilities:
Length: 21 ft
Fuel Capacity: 92 Gal
Power: 175 HP to 200 HP
I have seen some on the market in clean condition and was thinking that 10 yrs younger hull life than most Revenges (circa 1980s), I might have less structural problems.
Is this considered a desirable Whaler model? I am looking to upgrade to a cuddy from a Dauntless because my family has grown to six.
posted 11-06-2005 10:11 AM ET (US)
I had two of them. They are nothing like any other Whaler and are so rare some are completely unfamiliar with them (and some even deny they were built at all). Supposedly there are only 68 (21's) in the country. The story on them is they were originally a harbor patrol product for Saudi Arabia and Whaler decided to put a fishing liner in them and sell as walkarounds. Unfortunately the boats were extremely expensive to manufacture and they couldn't sell for more than was in them. The only one I ever saw prior to buying mine was the Navy test product (riddled with 20 mm) and years later saw one running up the channel (Navy model) at Mayport.
Buy it! It is a true blue-water boat in every way. Built like a tank, rides like a limo, but floats like a cork. A most unusual boat.
Either of those powerplants is fine, I had a 175 on one and 200 on the other. The way to use them is with the boat about 28-33 mph (36-3800 rpm) and trim slightly bow high and you won't even know that there is any chop.
If you buy one with tank racks lining the back -- good chance it was one of my boats.
|Tom W Clark||
posted 11-06-2005 12:00 PM ET (US)
I have no idea what boat flagold is talking about. But Mambo Minnow is probably referring to the Whaler 21 Walkaround.
Specifications for this model are:
LOA - 20'-9"
The Whaler 21 was designed by Peter Van Lanker then working for Reebok owned Boston Whaler. This model was introduced in 1990 and production continued until 1993.
This model was a distinctly new form for Boston Whaler departing from the classic "Smirked" hull forms designed by Bob Dougherty who had by then left Boston Whaler after the corporate ownership changed.
These boat are not that uncommon. From the Cetacea section is a photo of "Backlash" (third photo) and another courtesy of Larry Goltz:
Here are a couple that are for sale right now:
posted 11-06-2005 12:28 PM ET (US)
probably referring to the Whaler 21 Walkaround. -- that's exactly what we're talking about.
If two are for sale -- then two should be bought! They're excellent true bluewater boats. Used mine commercially for 10 years and you couldn't tell it from a new one, it's that kind of a boat.
posted 11-06-2005 12:54 PM ET (US)
Yes, referring to the Whaler cuddy cabin - that is the correct model you are commenting on. I live near Mayport, but not seen it here.
I thought this was the Reebok period...apparently not a bad thing and makes for a rare edition. Do you think $18-20,000 is a fair price for a 14 year old boat?
Also, both apparently have no trailer - do the standard "no rollers on a whaler just bunkboards) standard apply to this unusual hull form?
posted 11-06-2005 02:06 PM ET (US)
The unfamiliarity most have with them means you can usually pick them up cheap (for what they'll do). I bought both mine for $24,000 and sold them for the same thing (with trailers) after using them (hard) 10 years . . . The first one I bought had gone through Hurricane Andrew on davits: not a scratch. After buying that one I knew this was the boat for commercial operations and looked hard for a second one, going all the way to California to get it after buying it sight unseen (pictures). The owner and his wife were lifelong sailers and had got out on Puget Sound in estimated 50 foot rollers on their way to Alaska -- again, not a scratch on it. I had mine in 8-10 rollers many times and it handles them with no problems. The owner in California complained that his problem in selling the boat was no one was familiar with them and were afraid of them because they didn't think they were "Whaler." I have since seen one for $19,000 and one for $17,000 (but it's 13 years later) without trailers. The boat itself will outlast you.
I would still have my 93 (without washdown, plumbed potti, etc) but needed to go to all-weather extended cruising and camping protection and thus the C-Dory replaced it. A fine boat, but not the wave-crushing brute those 21's are. North Sails did make a camper-back canvas (which I had for the 93) for the boat but for extended outings (if that's what you're thinking) it's still more camping than living-aboard. I still have a bug screen for the forward hatch, if you get one just get ahold of me and I'll give it to you.
Just bunkboards on the trailers.
|Tom W Clark||
posted 11-06-2005 02:22 PM ET (US)
There is nothing unusual about the Whaler 21 Walkaround. It is a standard Whaler Unibond hull so the same trailer recommendations apply to this model as well.
"They are nothing like any other Whaler and are so rare some are completely unfamiliar with them (and some even deny they were built at all)."
This is not true. The Whaler 21 Walkaround is very much like its sibling the Whaler 23 Walkaround. It also shares the same hull with the Outrage 21 of the same era.
If your dig through the forum archives you will find much previous discussion of these models. They are well known and appreciated boats. The hull form is very similar to many of the Whalers built at this time.
flagold goes on to write:
"...they were originally a harbor patrol product for Saudi Arabia and Whaler decided to put a fishing liner in them and sell as Walkarounds."
Again, completely untrue. As I have said this hull was designed by Peter Van Lanker in 1990 as a recreational Boston Whaler product. Boston Whaler Commercial & Government Products (CPD), a division of Boston Whaler, used this hull as a basis for their 21' Justice model, but the Justice did not appear until the mid 1990s.
I think these are very nice boats and have mostly good things said about them here on this site by owners of them. I see them around here in Puget Sound and British Columbia.
These are very nice, smooth riding hulls and good looking to boot. Versions of the Walkarounds equipped with the Salt Shaker Marine "Whalerdrive" are reported to suffer leakage problems.
As far as fair price goes, it always depends on condition, condition, condition and the market. Do your homework very carefully.
posted 11-06-2005 02:32 PM ET (US)
I'm not about to get in a flame war with anyone -- I owned, researched, enjoyed mine for many years while being paid to run it . . . Just go take a look and run the boat -- and my guess is you'll wind up an owner as well!
Good luck with it!
posted 11-06-2005 03:21 PM ET (US)
Forgot to add: the Navy listed those boats as 22 for the years 91-93 (export boats) since they had OMC drives as I recall. They did buy 23's and 27's as well if I remember right but those 3 years were an anomaly and especially 91-92's since the Gulf War and base-maintenance was fresh and a lot of things got done in a hurry. I think the code name was Pirahna or something like that. If you start searching around you'll come across it somewhere.
|Tom W Clark||
posted 11-06-2005 03:45 PM ET (US)
I don't think anybody if "flaming" you. In fact, I am in agreement with you about the Whaler 21 Walkaround. It's a very nice boat that may prove to be a good fit for Mambo Minnow. I just think it is important to correct factual mistakes when they are presented.
The military boats you are thinking of were based on the classic 22 foot Dougherty designed Whaler hull. They were used extensively in the Gulf War. Several models were based on this hull including the Raider 22, one example of which can be seen in Cetacea page 35:
The 22 is also the hull that was riddled with navy gun fire. Photos of this hull have been used in Whaler promotional literature for years. See page 2 of the 2002 catalog for one example.
posted 11-06-2005 04:29 PM ET (US)
Well you finally forced me to go look myself:
These are the boats I'm thinking of (note the model year's are specific to this time period) denoting these particular 22's are different:
Boston Whaler: Columbia (export country): Piranha (model) 59 (boats) 22 (length) 1990-93 (time period).
Mambo: up by the fwd dog-house you may notice some crow's feet cracks where it meets the deck molding -- this had to do with too sharp an angle on the glass -- they aren't structural, don't leak, and won't affect anything other than a reminder not to manufacture a top-cap with a straight edge corner (should have been rounded).
Good luck with the sea trial.
|Tom W Clark||
posted 11-06-2005 05:41 PM ET (US)
Yes, the Piranha, Guardian and Raiders are all different models of the classic 22 foot hull, not the hull of the Whaler 21 Walkaround.
You can see examples of the 22' Piranha and the 27' Piranha on page 10 of the 1992 Boston Whaler Commercial Boats catalog.
The caption below the photograph of the 22' Piranha says:
"Based on the combat proven 22' hull, this Piranha was designed to carry 6 or 12 troops deep into jungle locations."
It is essentially a 22' Guardian modified for Central America.
posted 11-06-2005 05:59 PM ET (US)
As I said in my very first post (which wasn't to you): "They are nothing like any other Whaler and are so rare some are completely unfamiliar with them (and some even deny they were built at all)."
Those 3 years are set apart from all the rest (even on that list) because that is what they built in that specific time period.
I will not pretend to know every single boat that Boston Whaler built or designed for every nation and every use, but I do know I purchased and used 2 of these for 10 years. I also know what I saw photographed, know what I had read, and certainly know why I went from Florida to California to get one.
I debate no further.
|Tom W Clark||
posted 11-06-2005 06:19 PM ET (US)
Please don't be upset. I apologize if I have not made myself clear. I agree with you that the Whaler 21 Walkaround is a nice boat, but certainly not rare and unlike any other Whaler.
I am only pointing out these details so others who are reading this do not get confused.
The list you have provided a link to shows the year in which a given model was delivered to a given government, no more. It has nothing to do with what Whaler produced or when Whaler produced it. I think maybe you have read a little more into the list than is there.
In this case we can see that Whaler delivered 59 22' Piranha models to Columbia between 1990 and 1993. That is all. No 21s there and nothing about when Whaler produced them.
In fact the classic 22 foot Whaler hull was designed in 1978 and continues in production to this day as the 22' Guardian. The 21 foot Van Lanker designed hull was designed in 1990 and continues in production to this day too as the 21' Justice, so I think it is safe to say they are both very good hulls indeed.
posted 11-06-2005 06:49 PM ET (US)
I have a 23 Walkaround, and am so pleased with it that I talked a buddy of mine into buying a 21 Walkaround a few weeks ago. The winds of last week kicked up a decent chop, but the boat rides awesome. Maybe even better than my 23.
posted 11-07-2005 08:43 AM ET (US)
Just to clarify the specs on the 1991-1993 21' Walkarounds:
LOA - 21'
The specs on the 1994-? 21' Outrages:
LOA - 20'9"
The hull on the 21' Walkaround was "tweaked" by the BW engineers to become the 21' Outrage and in the process lost 3" in LOA.
posted 11-07-2005 08:48 AM ET (US)
What type trailers do you and your friend have for your 23/21 WAs? Assume you have dual axle with brakes...
Any recommendations on buying a particular brand of new trailer that works well with these hulls?
posted 11-07-2005 09:04 AM ET (US)
The c.1990 21 WALKAROUND is a great boat.
I think most Boston Whaler fans are familiar with it and there is literally no chance of confusing it with any military boats used in combat. I rather doubt that the boat's initial purpose or design was for use as a military patrol vessel in Saudi Arabia, however I am perfectly open to accepting this testimony as soon as someone submits a photograph of one in that application, location, and time frame. By that simple evidence we ought to be able to settle this debate.
posted 11-07-2005 09:20 AM ET (US)
Both of the 21' Walkarounds Tom referenced for sale in Yacht World appear to be in excellent condition.
The one in North Carolina looks to be especially clean and completely stock. It appears it may have the Mills fly top (shown folded forward of the windshield) and may have the complete weather curtain set as well. The 175HP Johnson will give only adequate performance. Can't tell if it has the optional (in 1992) hydraulic steering or manual head/holding tank.
The one in Florida is also very nice (and stock) and has the optional (very rare) grey gelcoat non-skid, hydraulic steering, manual head/holding tank, raw water washdown/aerated bait well, freshwater shower and trim tabs. The 200HP Yamaha (same as mine) will give good performance.
Both of these boats are, IMO, fairly priced. A float-on type trailer would be fine, but I would add as many Stolts keel rollers as possible. These are big, heavy boats (2600# dry) and the keel rollers will make a difference.
The 21' Walkaround is a fantastic boat. Photos of my 1991 21' Walkaround are in my profile.
posted 11-07-2005 09:41 AM ET (US)
Bummer, the FL one has sustained some hurricane related damage....fell and cleat put a hole on port side above the waterline. Waiting for damage pix, but my heart sank :(
They are repairing in their glass shop now, so it might turn out ok, but I still think that at least should knock the price down. Boat appears to have had two owners.
I liked the Yammie....concur better than Johnson 175 option. However, dealer thinks a 92 Yammie like the boat. Is it possible? I would think Whaler usedOMC engines as OEM that year before eventual switch to Mercury?
I know many on this site have down extensive gel coat repairs, but the damage concerns me as to what other damage is internal beyond visible from the hurricane.
Sorry for the double post JimH
posted 11-07-2005 10:14 AM ET (US)
MarineMax in Stewart is a first-class facility and I would think any repairs done to the boat would also be first class.
Yes, I suspect the 200HP Yamaha is probably the original engine that was sold with the boat. Back in the early 90's, almost all Whalers were shipped without power. When I bought my 1991 (in 02/92) I had the choice of OMC (johnson) or Yamaha power which is all the dealer offered. I have been very happy with the Yamaha.
posted 11-07-2005 10:20 AM ET (US)
A friend of mine is selling his 21' Walkaround.
Newer power, drive-on trailer, used in fresh water.
|Tom W Clark||
posted 11-07-2005 11:06 AM ET (US)
Yes, this looks like a very nice package too and includes a trailer and more and newer power.
You are right about the specifications. I had grabbed a 1991 catalog which only listed the preliminary, pre-production specs.
The difference between the Outrage and the Walkaround is the shape of the bow. The Walkaround has a flare out up the very tip of the bow that blends with the bow pulpit. The Outrage has a stem that remains fairly straight in profile. That is where the three inches went.
posted 11-07-2005 12:32 PM ET (US)
Thx for the post....I am interested in your friend's boat.
Left him a phone msg. I am particularly interested in cabin options...does it have the marine head option?
If possible, please ask to post more and closer pictures, particularly cabin condition and trailer if available.
Riptide et al - Is the additional weight of a 225 HP a factor to ride/handling vs. the extra 25 HP? Not sure what max hp rating for this model was, but believe the upgrade from a 200 HP adds another 100lbs to the transom.
posted 11-07-2005 12:40 PM ET (US)
The manual head/macerator/holding tank and hydraulic steering were standard on the 1991 21' Walkaround. These were options on the 1992 and 1993 models.
This model is rated for 250HP and I would definitely recommend the 225 over the 200. The 21 is a deep V and requires more HP to get on plane than the older classics. BTW, most 225HP outboards weigh the same as the 200HP offerings since they share the same block.
posted 11-07-2005 01:05 PM ET (US)
Minnow, I live in Anderson SC where Phoeker's friends boat is located. If I can do anything on this end to help, let me know.
posted 11-07-2005 04:03 PM ET (US)
Glad to help.
If the cuddy on the 21 is too small for you, shoot me an email. My 23 Walkaround is also for sale. I'll send you a spec sheet.
posted 11-07-2005 07:52 PM ET (US)
Well, as far as trailers go, the PO bought a Nextrail aluminum I-beam bunk trailer. Pretty nice, although not as many keel rollers as I would like. I have added more in pairs, but there's not many cross beams to put rollers on. I have their number somewhere.
My buddy's 21 came with a Continental trailer. Also tandem axle. His has more rollers, and loads easy. Both have the normal surge brake systems. His also looks like one of those hinged loading trailers, although we did not use that feature last week for loading or unloading.
His engine is a 225 Ocean Runner... not sure what the weight is, but it seems to handle the weight OK, although in previous posts, the previous owner mentioned how the rear scuppers would occasionally allow water into the cockpit. Maybe he had a few people on board too, and maybe the scupper flaps were old. In my opinion, the boat reaches it's full capability with a 225. It isn't overpowered with a 225, and a full load of 95 gallons of gas, 4 people, and gear are easily handled, I would imagine. Just conjecture though, based on only a trip or two. Others on this board would know better...
Hard to find something in the same class, with a real marine head and holding tank, for the same money. And even so, it probably would not be a Whaler.
That boat in SC looks like a nice vessel, and the price is in line with what my buddy paid.
posted 11-07-2005 08:27 PM ET (US)
I had the Continental aluminum dual axel trailer for the 91 and that was excellent for the boat. The 93 had a Pacific trailer under it and when the time came to let the 91 go I kept the Continental. That would be a good choice for your boat.
posted 11-08-2005 09:28 AM ET (US)
Walkaround 21 Keel Trailer
If as an ex-Walkaround owner, I can put in 2cents...If I gave the implication that water was coming into the cockpit, I am sorry.
What occasionally happened to me when the boat was unusually heavily stern loaded is a cycle starts. Some of the scuppers flaps become submerged which may allow water to slowly enter the hull which starts the main bilge pump. More water comes in, more gets pumped, etc, etc. I had this happen when I had a 9.9hp motor on the kicker bracket and a 6 gal tank of gas way aft. I only noticed it when I was anchored and everything was quiet. The cycling bilge pump was annoying and not very great practice so I finally got up and moved the kicker motor to lay on the foredeck for the night. Scuppers are not intended to operate when submerged.
Concerning the Continental trailer;
I never used the hinge feature. I could not see any reason to experiment with so much moving metal. Perhaps certain ramp situations would benefit from a hinged trailer.
The keel rollers were never properly adjusted to fit the profile of the hull. There are previous posts on CW detailing different methods to accomplish this.
I my opinion the whole axle frame should be moved forward about a foot to reduce the tongue weight. Since I trailered my boat less than 1/2 mile a year these improvements always stayed on the back burner.
posted 11-08-2005 09:57 AM ET (US)
"I never used the hinge feature."
Mambo: my Continental was the straight aluminum bunked Continental ordered for (and bunked for) the boat. You can contact Lauderdale Marina (Whaler Dealer) in Ft. Lauderdale and use my old order to get one if you wish (look up Carl Mattson 1991 Whaler Walkaround order #). I trailered alot and it was great -- the Pacific, not so great (galvanized and the tires were not aligned, burned out a set coming from California with the '93). I've never seen the hinged Continental, don't know what that is.
posted 11-08-2005 11:13 AM ET (US)
When I purchased the trailer in 2003, after a number of telephone calls to Continental and Miami Trailer, the dealer, I was under the impression that Continental was closing down production of "heavy - wide" trailers.
Additionally, the trailer was not available in stainless steel. I did however have my choice of brakes, bunks and rollers, winches, tires, etc. As to the hinge, thats probably what they had in the shop. Anyone interested can certainly check the Continental website or their dealers.
I was able to find two or three other manufacturers of keel roller trailers although on a built-to-suit basis.
posted 11-08-2005 01:33 PM ET (US)
That's unfortunate, since that Continental I had was ideal for the 21.
He might want to try an EZ although some damn them -- I have an EZ-Loader bunk galvanized dual axel trailer under my 22 C-Dory and have been across and back the length of the US (Fl-CA-WA-CO) and hauled it up in the Rockies numerous times on camping trips (camp on the boat in the mountains as well) and it is nothing short of superb. Still on the original tires and can't see any wear.
I'll also not discount that the Pacific trailer may have been a bent one, but on top of tire-wear, it did not load easy at all and the cable-spool was set way to high for a 21.
posted 11-08-2005 03:20 PM ET (US)
We have had a ball with the boat for the week it was in the water. Jim put his 25 horse on the back for a kicker for now, (until we gain confidence in the boat) but he has a 15 horse lined up for trade, plus we are going to tee off the fuel line to run to the kicker (it's a 4 stroke). Plus, I am going to replace my Perko flap scuppers to the "floating captive ball" type, and will recommmend Jim do the same. The ball-type ones seem to seal up better in following seas, and when submerged. The 225 ran great. I don't think Jim could be happier with the boat...
I have never used a hinged trailer before, and just pictured the hinge slamming down on the frame as the boat slid up the rollers. Or maybe one uses the hinge feature only when unloading the boat, as it slides off the bunks. Regardless, we didn't need it. We did note the axles being back a bit too far, and will adjust next spring. I think there's an article in the Reference section on this site about how to calculate how far to slide them. Will adjust the keel rollers too.
The brake flush feature is nice, too. Might have to add that to my trailer.
After looking at Backlash's photo page of his boat, and the various mods, I am salivating to get working on my 23 WA.
I would be missing the boat too.
posted 11-08-2005 06:18 PM ET (US)
Re: those encapsulated ball type scuppers.
Contact Backlash again to hear his thoughts on these. Last time I boated with him, he removed them.
They sleep aboard at night and those ping pong balls in there make quite a racket, was my understanding of the situation.
If you plan to or already do sleep aboard the boat, check with Steve (Backlash).
posted 11-08-2005 08:25 PM ET (US)
Thanks for the heads-up, Buckda. I had not thought of that... I have not spent many nights on board, but I can see where that would drive me bananas.
Jeez, there's no substitute for experience...
posted 11-09-2005 09:06 AM ET (US)
I just wanted to comment on the leaking scupper problem mentioned by Karl and others. First of all, I have NEVER had the main deck scuppers leak to the point of letting water collect on the deck. When at rest, the scuppers under the jump seats WILL allow water to enter this area, (with enough weight in the stern of the boat) and eventually drain into the main bilge. The simple solution to this problem is to install plugs from the inside.
Several years ago while watching fireworks on Lake Erie with 9 adults on board (all in the stern), the under jump seat scuppers were leaking to the point of overwhelming the main (Rule 1500) bilge pump. The in-floor fish boxes eventually filled with water, but at no time did water collect on the rear deck. Once on plane, the water quickly drained. If I had put plugs in these scuppers prior to leaving the dock this would not have been a problem.
I have replaced my Perko rubber flap style scuppers at least twice. A couple of years ago I installed the T-H Marine ball type scuppers, and to be honest, I don't think they seal much better than the flap style. Here's the problem: as the ball floats up to seal the opening, water enters, the ball seals and as the boat rocks the ball drops, more water enters, the ball seals, falls, water enters and so on. When the scupper is completely submerged the ball makes a very good seal, but any wave motion will cause the scupper to raise out of the water and the ball looses its seal. As Dave mentioned, the most annoying thing about these ball type scuppers is the constant rattling of the ball inside the plastic/Lexan housing which is telegraphed throughout the hull. Last summer I replaced these annoying scuppers with West Marine flap style scuppers. Don't know who makes them, but they have a stiff plastic/nylon (not rubber) flap and so far I am very pleased with them. I think they will last much longer then the rubber ones which were shot after a couple of years.
I do believe the under seat scuppers are mounted too low in the 21' Walkaround. I would love to inspect a 1994-1998 21' Outrage to see where (how high) the scuppers are positioned on the transom as these boats were often equipped with twin 150's.
posted 11-09-2005 11:33 AM ET (US)
All you have to do with low scuppers is apply a light pliable sealant to the outside edge and leave the very bottom edge open (you can seal it completely also). In doing this, if a large amount of water comes over the bow and fills, it will break the light seal readilly and drain, but for normal use the scupper is sealed (with a little help from your sealant). Small amounts of water drain out the scupper normally or if you seal it completely, are handled by the bilge. Ditto the Dauntless 13 on scuppers.
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