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ContinuousWave: Post-Classic Whalers
305 CONQUEST Reserve Floation; Carolina Classic Sinking
|Author||Topic: 305 CONQUEST Reserve Floation; Carolina Classic Sinking|
posted 02-13-2006 10:46 PM ET (US)
A new Carolina Classic 35 went down a few days ago around Cape Hatteras. The circumstances are still unknown, but the crew of two [drowned] in this incident. Could this happen to a 305 Conquest? I suspect that if one were to take a big wave into the cockpit over the transom, it could make for a serious problem. The swamped capacity of this boat is not that great. If water were to get into the cabin, I suspect the boat could sink fast. Any thoughts about emergency procedures and a life raft for this boat?
posted 02-14-2006 09:55 AM ET (US)
Thomasfxlt, The swamped capacity of the 305 is 2,300 lbs. This means the boat would stay afloat even if the cabin and hold were full of water unless the engines, gasoline and all the cargo were in excess of 2,300 lbs which is certainly possible on a 305.
It does seem unlikely the all the hatches would be open and allow the boat to suddenly fill with water. If the cockpit only filled with water, the boat wouldn't sink, but the passengers might have a tough time. The cockpit drains very slowly on my 305 and with a cockpit full of water, the handling and power of the boat would be impaired. I don't know if the 305 would right itself if it turned turtle. Most 35 Carolina Classics have a tower which would impair the ability of that boat to right itelf.
Emergency life rafts are small enough to fit on the foredeck of a 305 where they can be quickly deployed. A waterproof ditch bag with warm weatherproof clothes, a handheld gps, vhf, food and water can be carried.
My number one safety plan is to stay out of bad weather and not rely on the swamped capacity of my 305 to keep my alive.
posted 02-14-2006 09:59 AM ET (US)
First of all, anything is possible on the water. Plan for the worst and you should have a better chance than not planning at all.
Without knowing any details about the Carolina Classic sinking, I will only say that if the boat rolled and the cabin filled with water, the boaters were in the water and quickly. Without exposure suits, the winter water temperature alone would only allow for minimal time before hypothermia set in. Core temperatures drop quickly if you cannot get your body out of the water, you go into shock and you drown.
ABYC floatation standards only apply to boats less than 20' in length. Since the Carolina Classic web site does not feature any mention of positive floatation, I assume it would sink when swamped.
The 305 Whaler at least offers positive swamped capacity but it could sink in a capsizing (and the cabin fills with water) if your onboard gear exceeds the swamped floatation capacity since it is only 2,200 lbs. In the scenario you mentioned, a wave over the stern, your best friend is an cockpit door to let water out quickly. If your engines are still running, a burst of throttle to raise the bow will help, too. For the record, I always keep the companionway door closed at all times for this reason and for keeping fumes out of the cabin.
As far as gear recommendations, you can get a 6-person liferaft that automatically release from the deck if the boat sinks. They are compact at around 2.5' square by 2'high. Many have EPIRBs and distress signal gear already inside but require inspection certification every few years. I like these best because many times your crew has no idea how to employ a life raft, nor where it is kept. In an emergency, you as captain are trying to save the vessel and you may not know when to give up to seek the liferaft. By the time you do, it may be too late to get the raft employed. I would also recommend a ditchbag that contains a handheld EPIRB, strobe light, inflatable PFD vests, etc. As I mentioned before, plan for the worst and you have a better chance of survival.
posted 02-14-2006 03:42 PM ET (US)
Where do you guys do your boating?? I can't imagine being in a situation in a 305 where I need to purchase a liferaft let alone sinking in one. I'm not saying it is impossible, I am only saving that it the cabin door is closed it would take an incredible storm to sink this boat. If you use the engines properly and don't let a following wave or beam wave swamp you, I would assume that the 305 will keep you out of trouble. On my way up to Alaska in a 24 foot Searay I have had green coming over the bow and even over the windshield but if you SLOW DOWN and work the waves you can dramatically lessen the effects of the big ones. I can't imagine being out in ways so big in a 305 that I would be worried about sinking. I haven't driven a 305 in really rough weather but I assume it can handle a lot.
posted 02-14-2006 08:27 PM ET (US)
I do not recall ever hearing of a Boston Whaler boat being found on the bottom. The Unibond™ hull and the outstanding reserve floatation of a Boston Whaler are perhaps its most outstanding characteristics.
posted 02-14-2006 11:11 PM ET (US)
Your thoughts generally echo mine. It's just nice to be reassured that it will be tough to put a 305 on the bottom. This is not to say that it can't happen, but I believe it will be less likely than many other boats.
I agree that one should always plan for the worst. Be prepared and you greatly enhance your chances of a positive outcome.
posted 02-15-2006 09:35 AM ET (US)
You are right. If you know what you're doing you can prevent the worst case scenario.
I presented the worst case to help Thomasfxlt realize that it could happen per his question. I do not recall his area of the country, but if you go offshore a great distance, you must be self reliant. If he is uncomfortable in any way, I would certainly have a life raft. A few thousand dollars is a pittance compared to the cost of the boat. It is utterly foolish to pull the "macho card" out and say, "I'll be OK". The sea bottom is littered with macho fools.
The smaller Whalers, as already mentioned, have tremendous reserve floatation capacity while the largest ones like the 305, have much less reserve. Like Jimh, I cannot remember any Whaler outright sinking to the bottom. I also agree it would take a lot to put a 305 on the bottom.
I still say that a 305 could go down if the gear exceeds the reserve floatation and the cabin fills with water. I know many boats that have a few hundred feet of full chain rode in their forepeak. Just that alone exceeeds the reserve capacity of the 305. The Whaler catalog states that "swamped capacity is the total weight (persons, motor and gear)that the boat will support if filled with water". Make a list of all the stuff you have onboard, include fuel,water, waste tanks, people, batteries and engines. Does that exceed 2,220 lbs? I'll bet you'll be surprised.
As for dangerous boating, it is not uncommon for a boat entering an inlet to get caught sideways and roll. In my opinion, that's where people screw up the most. Maybe some of our Coasties or Marine Patrol people can chime in here with what they see.
The people who drowned in the Carolina Classic probably didn't think their boat could sink either-but it did- and they're dead. Too bad they put too much faith in their captain and/or boat's ability.
posted 02-15-2006 10:32 AM ET (US)
The Carolina Classic was a new boat in route to the Miami boat show, the 2 men who died were professional captains hired by Carolina Classic. They were not offshore but in the ICW. This shows you can never be to prepared inside or out.
Below is a post from the Carteret County News Times
BY ERIC STEINKOPFF
SOUTH RIVER — The bodies of two Florida men found near the mouth of South River have been identified as two experienced seaman hired to transport a new boat from an Edenton factory south along the Intracoastal Waterway to a Miami boat show.
County Sheriff Ralph Thomas Jr. confirmed Friday that the body of Sam Puleo, 78, of Fort Lauderdale who lived on a boat in a Florida marina, was found around 4:30 p.m. Thursday and the body of his companion, retired Bay Harbor Island police Lt. James Surface, 55, of Englewood, was found around 12:30 p.m. Friday.
Both bodies were found near Lukens Island just to the east of the mouth of the South River about eight miles east of their sunken 35-foot Carolina Classic "Sport Fisher."
The boat was found Friday by a Coast Guard HH-60 Jayhawk search and rescue crew in about 10 to 18 feet of water near Marker 7.
Investigators said that there is no evidence of foul play, but the bodies were taken to Carteret General Hospital and then to Onslow Memorial Hospital for autopsies to determine the cause of death, before being released to the families for burial.
An investigation is under way to determine what led up to the sinking of the boat.
Investigators will learn a great deal more about the incident once they are able to take a closer look at the boat.
"When we raise the boat, almost immediately we will know what happened," Sheriff Thomas said. "It will have to be inspected by the Coast Guard and deputies to confirm or disprove suspicions of a serious hull breach. If that’s not the case, the investigation will continue."
The two men’s journey began when they rented a car and left their native Cozy Cove Marina in Dania, Fla., on the southeastern tip of the state and drove north to take delivery of the new boat from manufacturer Carolina Classic Inc. in Edenton.
Those who knew the two men said they hoped to head south along the ICW in time to reach next week’s Miami Boat Show.
"They each have about 30 years on boats. Sam (Puleo) lived on a boat in the marina and owned several boats," said Cozy Cove Marina owner and operator John Skinner. "He’s been delivering boats for years to places like the Galapagos Islands, South America and inland rivers."
According to investigators, the men left Edenton around 8:30 a.m. Sunday and they believe something went wrong about midday when the boat sank quickly in the Neuse River near the mouth of Adams Creek.
"The boat sank, but this was unknown until Thursday afternoon when we were notified that a body had been spotted in the water near the mouth of the South River," said Sheriff Thomas of a South River resident’s report.
Deputies recovered Mr. Puleo’s life-jacketed body near the mouth of the South River late Thursday afternoon, determined that he was on a boat and had a companion, so the Coast Guard began a helicopter search of the area around 6 p.m. that included about 2,000 square miles in the Pamlico Sound, Pamlico River and Neuse River.
The air crews continued through the night, pausing only to refuel and were joined by Coast Guard boats from their Hobuken and Fort Macon stations, as well as members of the Marine Patrol, the N.C. Wildlife Resources Commission and sheriff’s deputies.
The helicopter crew from their Elizabeth City Air Station spotted the boat from the air Friday near Marker 7 close to the mouth of Adams Creek with one outrigger sticking out of the water, according to Coast Guard Sector North Carolina Public Affairs Officer Lt. j.g. Chandra Hartsfield.
The sheriff’s department received a citizen’s report early Friday of another body near where they recovered the first, near the mouth of the South River and about 500 yards from an area frequented by duck hunters.
Sheriff’s department dive team leader and patrol division supervisor Capt. Franklin Fulcher, Detective Sgt. Jason Wank and undercover narcotics officer Detective Chris Cozart were on a Coast Guard boat around 12:30 p.m. Friday when they found the body of Mr. Surface without a life jacket near Lukens Island.
"Both bodies were in close proximity to each other," Sheriff Thomas said. "It’s a logical location due to the winds over the last several days. The west and west-northwest winds would have moved bodies from the location of the boat to where the bodies were found."
"We needed multiple people, including detectives to (document) the location and condition of the body, retrieve it and make other observations at the scene," Sheriff Thomas said. "We appreciate the rapid and in depth cooperation from the Fort Macon Coast Guard Station."
Given the fact that at least one of the deceased men was wearing a life jacket and they were not able to steer the boat toward land and relative safety of the shallows, investigators believe that whatever catastrophic event occurred, it flooded and sank the boat very fast.
"People who know the men said they would not have otherwise been wearing life jackets," said Sheriff Thomas who added that the fact that there was no evidence of trauma or burns to the head, torso or limbs of the deceased, suggests that the sinking was not caused by an engine or transmission explosion.
"They did this all the time and were considered very experienced professionals," Sheriff Thomas said.
"It was a brand new boat, and they always carry a GPS, radio and depth sounder," Mr. Skinner said. "It must have been an absolute freak accident to cause something to happen so quickly."
Sheriff’s departments in Pamlico County to the north and Carteret County to the south both confirmed that there was no report of an emergency cell phone call about a sinking boat this week.
According to the Coast Guard, they did not get a distress call from the unnamed boat piloted by the two men this week, but a crew from their Hobuken station did respond to another boater’s report of a sunken vessel marked with a life ring or life jacket near Marker 7 in the Neuse River Wednesday and they were unable to find the boat.
"The cause should be determined in a matter of days, but it would likely be hypothermia or drowning, given the absence of physical trauma," Sheriff Thomas said.
According to the National Weather Service in Newport, the water temperatures dropped steadily from 54 degrees Sunday to 49 degrees Friday.
"The trend was for the water to get colder as the weather got colder throughout the week," said meteorologist John Elavdo.
The families in Florida were devastated, but at least one friend was able to say some kind words about his comrades.
"We’re all in shock and disbelief," Mr. Skinner said. "They were very close personal friends, like members of the family. Sam (Puelo) was a true gentleman and a scholar and (Mr. Surface) was a retired cop. They helped everybody in the marina. They were just good people."
Deputies estimated that the boat likely carried about 300 gallons of fuel when it set off from Edenton and probably used about 40 to 50 gallons on its trip to the Neuse River, so officers expect as much as 250 gallons of diesel fuel could still be on board of the sunken vessel.
"I believe that the fuel tanks still had a great deal of fuel inside, but there was no oil or fuel seen on the surface," Sheriff Thomas said. "The boat salvage and recovery is the responsibility of the boat owner under the guidance of the Coast Guard."
"The Coast Guard will work closely with the owner to ensure the salvage doesn’t present any environmental hazards," Lt. j.g. Hartsfield said.
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posted 02-15-2006 10:39 AM ET (US)
I don't think any of us believe that the 305 is not a safe capable boat in most sea conditions.
Last year we went out on the second day of a fishing tournament when we were sort of in the money. It was not a day we would have gone out under ordinary circumstances. Winds were 20-30 knots and Seas were high enough that I couldn't see over the crests when we were in the troughs. I could see almost half the bottom of a big Hattaras when it got beamed. The captain of the same boat whined on the radio that he was getting drenched on the the fly bridge by the all the spray (his crew was hiding in the cabin). They called the tournament at noon, before we had caught anything.
In these conditions, the 305 handled well, we felt safe, we were dry (with weather curtains) and even felt comfortable. The roll of the 305 was moderate (some boats roll with a snap) and there was always something to hang onto, brace yourself against or stick your toe under.
If we had lost power, I think we would have been o.k. but uncomfortable. But there is always something that could go wrong, a fire for instance, that could put everyone in the water.
A recent guest who had no experience boating taught us something. She asked for a life jacket. Ours were stowed away and in plastic as we got them from a dealer when we purchased the boat. It is stupid to have life jackets stowed away where they are not available in an emergency. Now we have life jackets and a throw cushion where they can be reached quickly. We carry a ditch bag with a handheld gps, a vhf and rain gear. The latter might keep you alive a little longer in the cold water. We had all the stuff, it was just taking the the minimum effort to put it all in a bag.
We don't have a life raft, but I wouldn't snicker at someone who carried one.
posted 02-15-2006 11:33 AM ET (US)
I think the incident with the Carolina Classic is a real wake-up call. It's an awful reality for the families of the victim, but a vivid example of how quickly a day on the water can turn tragic. I can tell you, no matter how safe I feel, I will view each moment on my boat with a higher regard for safety.
posted 02-15-2006 12:37 PM ET (US)
Sounds like hypothermia may have been a big factor even for the man with the life jacket.
While stationed at the Coast Guard Air Station in Elizabeth City, NC (just a little north of Cape Hatteras) I went through cold water training by jumping in the Pasquotank River with a life jacket on. Water temps were in the 60's if memory serves me right. My muscles almost immediately went stiff and I remembered being very scared that I was in big trouble. It was a big effort just to dog paddle to the ladder on the boat dock barely 20 feet away. I was in the water less than a minute but I was shivering and could not stop. That was 30 years ago and it left a very big impression on me. I don't go cold weather boating without my Stearn's Survival Suit.
I have never been in the water with the suit but it keeps me warm no matter how cold or windy it is. It is much warmer than my $200 insulated camo coveralls.
posted 02-15-2006 01:42 PM ET (US)
RE: "This means the boat would stay afloat even if the cabin and hold were full of water unless the engines, gasoline and all the cargo were in excess of 2,300 lbs which is certainly possible on a 305."
This is not quite correct unless you are talking about something like 2300 lbs of lead or engines or something heavier than water. Anything on the boat lighter than water (e.g., gasoline, some cargo) would be a net buoyant force.
posted 02-15-2006 01:45 PM ET (US)
Capt. Billy et al (re: Carolina Classic sinking)-
Is Adams Creek part of the ICW that leaves Morehead City/ Beaufort NC and runs North to the Neuse River?
posted 02-15-2006 02:57 PM ET (US)
Kingfish, yes. They were heading south. You can see the chart here http://mapserver.maptech.com/homepage/index.cfm?lat=34.9123701054& lon=-76.6601902927&scale=80000&zoom=50&type=0&icon=0&searchscope=dom& CFID=1940834&CFTOKEN=77862412&scriptfile=http://mapserver.maptech.com/ homepage/index.cfm&latlontype=DMS
posted 02-15-2006 03:24 PM ET (US)
Thanks - I thought that sounded familiar - cruised up there from Morehead city a few Springs ago in my Outrage 22. Tragic accident; I'll be curious to hear what happened.
posted 02-15-2006 05:45 PM ET (US)
I don't know the area in question here, but I would also like to hear about the outcome of this investigation. This "ICW" appears to be mostly protected, well travelled waterways where large waves or boat capsizings would be rare. Does the ICW have conditons that could capsize a large boat like this? Perhaps it ran aground and the hull was damaged, causing the boat to sink, and the men could not make it to shore? No radio call? This is a great argument for a self inflating liferaft, a small whaler dingy, or other signaling devices. Maybe they were opening up the throttle and hit something and both were knocked out and then drowned. I realize i'm speculating heavily, but the facts here are disturbing.
posted 02-15-2006 07:07 PM ET (US)
The Neuse River (part of it is part of the ICW, sounds like they were going to continue on the ICW there by turning from it into Adams Creek) is a *big* body of water. I think it is fairly shallow, but it is broad in that area and gets broader still as it heads out to Pamlico Sound. If memory serves, the Neuse River is a couple of miles wide right in there, and there isn't much civilization. I'm thinking they hit a dead head at speed or got off course and hit a snag.
posted 02-15-2006 11:15 PM ET (US)
<I have never been in the water with the suit>
Not to hijack the thread but Stearns recomends jumping in the water with your flotation suit annually to test and confirm it's bouyancy. Obviously it would be prudent to do this in warmer water as you do not need to test it's EHP (extended hypothermic protection).
I wear one while sailing my J14 iceboat during winter and also for early and late season fishing on my 170 Montauk.
posted 02-15-2006 11:39 PM ET (US)
I would test the extended hypothermic properties too as long as you have a crew to pull you out when you get too cold. Up here in Northern California divers use about 7mm wetsuits to dive for abalone.. Surfers can use 3/4mm because they move around more. If I buy a mustang or comperable suit this year, I will be testing it in lakes and then the cold ocean during a lifesaving class.
posted 02-16-2006 12:11 AM ET (US)
I remember how that cold water felt like it was yesterday. I thought about testing it in the summer but I know it will float me. I really don't want to experience the cold like I did that day by testing it in the winter. I hope to never have to put the suit to it's full use, but I am sure of the outcome if I have to go in the water without it.
posted 02-16-2006 12:16 AM ET (US)
Sorry, punched the key too quick.
I hope it didn't sound like I wanted to hijack the thread. The suit would be useful even if you were standing in a swamped boat and much less expensive than a life raft.
posted 02-16-2006 09:01 AM ET (US)
One more item. I don't think you could get enough weight in a Whaler to sink it unless you were hauling a backhoe chained to the deck.
You stand a much better chance of being rescued if you stay with the boat. A swamped boat is much easier to spot by fixed wing aircraft which is the first to get on scene on overdue or mayday calls. A swamped boat is easier to visually spot under most conditions. Radar will pick up a boat better than a raft. Even If I had a life raft, I would stay with a Whaler until the Coasties could find me.
posted 02-16-2006 09:38 AM ET (US)
There is one more thing to say about the safety of a Whaler and that is with its double hull design, it is difficult to punch a hole through both hulls sufficient to put water into the bilge. I am not saying it couldn't happen but it would take a very heavy impact with a sharp object. The foam acts like a shock absorber and would protect the second hull from puncture.
posted 02-16-2006 10:05 AM ET (US)
Please read my last post regarding the ability to sink a 305.
posted 02-16-2006 11:18 AM ET (US)
We had a similar discussion about swamped capacity a while back (larger vs smaller Conquests). Even though the 305 doesn't have as much swamped capacity as some of the smaller boats (hull thickness with foam vs interior volume), the construction of a Whaler makes probable that, if it should take on enough water to cause a problem, it will sink far more slowly than another boat without positive flotation.
I think you'll find that in these types of incidents, it's the speed with which a holed or swamped boat sinks that takes the crew by surprise.
posted 02-16-2006 11:34 AM ET (US)
Sell'm all and buy Trophys. At least, if they don't have much foam they can't absorb much water.
posted 02-20-2006 01:45 PM ET (US)
Here's the latest on the Carolina Classic sinking ..... looks like it could be a shaft seal problem by the way this boat does not come from the factory with bilge high water alarms installed ......you just have to have those for obvious safety reasons.
posted 02-20-2006 03:30 PM ET (US)
No high water alarm on my 305. The red light on the bilge pump switch goes on when the float switch turns either bilge pump on but that is the only indication of pump operation. To my knowledge no Whaler is factory equiped with an audible alarm. I am interested if forum members think such an alarm should be installed.
Based on the speed at which the Carolina Classic apparently sank, it seems unlikely that the bilge pumps could have kept up with the flow.
The float swtches on both of my Whalers have stuck and would not engage the bilge pumps. It is part of my normal weekly maintainence to stick a hose in the bilge, make sure the switch and pump are operating normally and flush out the sediment.
posted 02-20-2006 03:51 PM ET (US)
The engine room on the Carolina Classic is amidships so when they final determined they had an issue all the water that was in the back of the engine room moved forward probably pushing the bow under. Happend last year about 35 miles offshore to another Carolina Classic. Only thing different was a thru hull gave way. The boat was moving along at 25 mph and when the captain came off the throttles the water moved forward pushing the bow under. The boat went down in less than 60 seconds. He got 2 maydays off. Remember your Whaler has positive floating the Carolina Classic has none. The Coast Guards recommendations was to install high water alarms.
posted 02-20-2006 06:33 PM ET (US)
I would not want to pay the premium for product liability insurance for Carolina Classic. They are quality boats but.....
posted 02-21-2006 01:23 AM ET (US)
Brand new boats sink just as good as a 10 year old boat.
About 15 years ago a Davis Yacht sunk on it's maiden voyage out of Oregon Inlet. It was a million dollar boat....and no floatation.
posted 02-21-2006 11:28 AM ET (US)
I am not an expert on large boats but don't some (Riviera) have interior bulk heads to prevent or delay sinking if the bow is damaged in a colision or to prevent water in the stern from suddenly sloshing all the forward and pushing the bow under?
posted 02-21-2006 11:42 AM ET (US)
A high water alarm should be placed in an area which accumulates water while underway and at rest. The most obvious area is above the rudder post on the centerline of the hull. This is the location of almost every HW Alarm I have ever seen. If there are sealed bulkheads between the engine room and the stern lazarette, there should be two alarm sense points. Hopefully the Carolina Classic had both if this is the case.
The report in the last hyperlink news item revealed little information about the potential cause other than it was not a obvious hull breach like a masssive hole. I'm sure there will be a full answer sometime soon.
Pure speculation on my part, but since the one engine was in neutral with the key off may be a sign of an engine raw water hose coming off or splitting which could fill the boat very quickly if discovered too late.
posted 02-22-2006 09:13 AM ET (US)
Update on the sinking
posted 02-22-2006 02:54 PM ET (US)
Here's some info ..... there will some lessons learned from this unfortunate accident.
posted 02-24-2006 12:22 AM ET (US)
We frequently are reminded by incidents like the unfortunate tragedy of this Carolina Classic boat sinking that the quintessential element of a Boston Whaler boat has always been its unsinkable nature due to the foam-filled hull.
posted 02-24-2006 02:58 PM ET (US)
The attached link is for a recent show I watched on OLNTV. It was a show hosted by Tred Barta and it showed what can go wrong at sea. The moral of the story is that you can be 98% prepared but it's the other 2% that will kill you. It was a very eye opening story.
posted 02-24-2006 08:13 PM ET (US)
17 bodega: the surfers get away with the thinner suits not
because they move around more, but because they are out of
the water most of the time on top of the board. Serious
SCUBA divers here abouts wear dry suits. They are a lot warmer than 7 mm wetsuits.
posted 02-26-2006 06:54 PM ET (US)
That makes perfect sense Chuck. Do you think I can get away with 5mm for shallow water snorkeling in Monterey Bay? I think a dry suit is out of my price range right now.
posted 02-26-2006 09:30 PM ET (US)
As long as you are mostly puttering around on the surface,
the 5 mm might be good enough. If you already have it, try
it. You WILL need a hood and gloves. If you are going to
buy wetsuit, buy a 7 mm.
posted 02-26-2006 10:04 PM ET (US)
I have been over the side, deliberatly, at the height of summer, in the middle of the North Sea.
Had instant 'ice cream brainfreeze' when my head went under and I only lasted about twenty minutes before I had to be hauled in. Took over an hour to get me warm enough to stop shivering.
Only one person has mentioned the alltime equalizer.... FIRE.
I have been witness to a marina fire that took twenty-five large vessels in almost as many minutes. So all the reserve, foam filled bouyancy in the world will not help you when it is on fire.
Like that famous phrase goes... "Let's be carefull out there!'
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