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  210 OUTRAGE Retail Price of $75,000

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Author Topic:   210 OUTRAGE Retail Price of $75,000
art9234 posted 07-09-2006 02:51 PM ET (US)   Profile for art9234   Send Email to art9234  
Just came back from a shocking visit at my Whaler dealer.
I was interested in trading my 2004 Nantucket against a new 21 outrage completly rigged with T-top fishing pkg. 200 verado, trim tabs , curtains etc. The shock was a 75,000 LIST AND A 65,000 sell price. They offered me 22,000 for my fully equipped Nantucket with 60 hrs. When I balked at the price, they steered me away from whaler and to a 22 sea pro. Nice boat but no whaler. What do you folks think about this pricing and do you know of any clean 2004-05 21's out there.

Art

Milepost43 posted 07-09-2006 05:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for Milepost43  Send Email to Milepost43     
Seven on BOATTRADER http://www.boattraderonline.com/
jimh posted 07-09-2006 08:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Boston Whaler boats have always been expensive. I wanted one as a kid, then I noticed that the price of a 13-footer was more than my college education cost back in the 1960's. (Tuition was only $185/Semester back then!)
Yiddil posted 07-09-2006 08:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for Yiddil  Send Email to Yiddil     
Yep, they seem to be way higher then when I bought my 2004 Nantucket. I was offered a 21 Outrage for 44 thou complete back then, but I didnt want get a new tow it rig, and Im glad I stayed in my nantucket mode......But 75, thou WOW!...I priced my boat with everything I have on it and todays price is like 45,ooo for a Nantucket!today! Pretty outrages me thinks but its all up to you:)Then again, what was gas in 2004??????????? hehe
fno posted 07-09-2006 11:08 PM ET (US)     Profile for fno  Send Email to fno     
That boat should cost you 55-57K Go to another dealer and compare prices.
tombro posted 07-10-2006 06:52 AM ET (US)     Profile for tombro  Send Email to tombro     
That's probably about right. It's the Verado, T top and curtains that add about 10k to the mid 50's price you would think the rig would sell for...and these are must-have items, IMO.
bulanri posted 07-11-2006 11:36 PM ET (US)     Profile for bulanri  Send Email to bulanri     
Spring 2005 I intended on buying a 21' Outrage also. I worked the dealer very hard. I ended up buying a 22' Edgewater with a 225 4-stroke Yamaha, t-top, etc and the price was substantially cheaper. The Whaler dealer was not able to get close to the price of the Edgewater. In this case price was the deciding factor, but I'm very happy with the Whaler. If you are in Ohio, contact Brian at http://www.freeman-eckley.com/.
bulanri posted 07-11-2006 11:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for bulanri  Send Email to bulanri     
I meant I'm very happy with the Edgewater. Sorry
highanddry posted 07-12-2006 02:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for highanddry  Send Email to highanddry     
Pricing on boats is to high in general.If this were a 24 footer--maybe. As prices increase--sells fall--as sells fall--prices rise further--it is a death spiral for the industry. Prices must be reduced to restablish health in the industry.

People have asked how I can afford a 45,000 dollar boat, I look around trying to see what boat they are talking about and then I realize, they mean my Nantucket. If these boats are going at 45,000 now then that is 15,000 to much.

lizabethie posted 07-21-2006 10:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for lizabethie  Send Email to lizabethie     
Hi Art, I was over there a couple of weeks ago, with the same inquiry, only was looking at the 240 Outrage. Was speaking to the salesman who replaced ours, and he was going to call me with the numbers. I'm still waiting for that call. They didn't have a 24 in Norwalk, (only at their LI showroom & marina,) but they showed me around the 270. At $150k sticker price & $135k sale price, it'd be a bit much for our budget, and they also offered me a Sea Pro. The salesman (left his card in the car, or else I could tell you a name... Russell, maybe?) kept saying "you get a lot more features for the money, but its like comparing a Kia to a Lexus."
Um, not a way to sell me on that other brand. I think we'll stick with our Nantucket a little bit longer.

Problem is, they're one of the only games in lower New England for Whalers, and they have the volume. Now that Marine Max bought the dealership, I expect there to be ever more of a monopolistic attitude.

-Beth

Mambo Minnow posted 07-29-2006 11:39 AM ET (US)     Profile for Mambo Minnow    
Beth raises a concern of mine...it is ever apparent to me that there is a growing, potentially monopolistic, relationship developing between Brunswick and Marine Max.

Marine Max will soon have all the Sea Ray/Whaler lines east of the Missisippi. They have most of Florida, are as far west and north as Ohio and have started penetrating the Northeast market. They have even expanded into marinas. The days of the family run dealership are rapidly disappearing and I think that is sad and bad for the consumer. Many of the original dealers in Mew England and New York had personal relationships with Dick Fischer.

You would think that with this volume of wholesale, they'd be able to pass savings to consumer from economies of scale. However, judging by the prices quoted in this thread, it is more likely they are raising prices and getting greater profit margin.

Only the high price of gas and the bloated used market is there to counterbalance. I think this is a good topic thread for further discussion.

art9234 posted 08-01-2006 12:08 PM ET (US)     Profile for art9234  Send Email to art9234     
I have not heard back from this"new and improved ownership" of surfside Re: to any options as promised.
Looked at Everglades this weekend, could be the quality and price alternative for a Dougherty boat.
This could be the end of whaler as we have grown to know them.
Art
mcmahojo posted 08-28-2006 02:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for mcmahojo  Send Email to mcmahojo     

Where are you located?
SeattleDauntless posted 08-29-2006 02:12 AM ET (US)     Profile for SeattleDauntless  Send Email to SeattleDauntless     
Call me cheap (well, maybe 'cause I am) but what is so wrong with used Whalers. I am now on my 5th (yes five)one. The hulls are reliable, and even if you take a $55k boat, and get a couple year old used one for $15-20k less, if you HAD to put that money back into motors, you still would not really be behind.

I don;t really want to ruffle feathers here, but it amazes me whn people drop the kind of money mentioned above on boats that, unless you charter all the time, rarely get used more than 100hrs/yr. The depreciation is a killer, along with insurance, etc.

Whenever possble, i buy slightly used everything. Cars, trucks, boats, tools, whatever. I never feel like I lost out on the "new car smell" when the other guy has taked the 20-50% depreciation for me.

So, why buy new? Seriously?

highanddry posted 08-29-2006 03:53 AM ET (US)     Profile for highanddry  Send Email to highanddry     
"So, why buy new? Seriously?"


Uh, because I can and can afford it and have lot's of money to do so. Why buy used when you don't have too?

bsmotril posted 08-29-2006 09:15 AM ET (US)     Profile for bsmotril  Send Email to bsmotril     
A warranty is a pretty nice feature of buying new also. But, you got to weigh that against buying a used classic with old technology power that is easily maintained and repaired by the home mechanic. My first Whaler was new, the last two are used, and very very used. I hope the next one is a Dauntless 20, but that will depend on my 2007 bonus (if any). No bonus and I'll be looking at a classic Outrage 19.
BillS
SeattleDauntless posted 08-30-2006 12:20 AM ET (US)     Profile for SeattleDauntless  Send Email to SeattleDauntless     
Highanddry,

I can buy new as well. Pick the whaler, and I can cash into
it tomorrow. But it still makes no sense to me.

Just cause ya can, don't mean you have to...

highanddry posted 08-30-2006 04:53 AM ET (US)     Profile for highanddry  Send Email to highanddry     
"I can buy new as well. Pick the whaler, and I can cash into
it tomorrow. But it still makes no sense to me.
Just cause ya can, don't mean you have to..."


Well, why wouldn't you then? Why does it make sense to buy some other persons problems, no warranty, reduced efficiency and have to repair and undo other people weird ideas of how something should be--if in fact--you can afford a new one?

The difference in value is not that much to me--but---I fully understand and appreciate falling for a particular boat---old or new---and then deciding that is the one you want. I am glad for you that you have what you want and that you enjoy it.

I would buy a used hull if I could put a new engine on it and the hull was clean with a history I could follow. I would never buy a used car, to me that is like wearing hand me down cloths. I buy new cars and drive them till the wheels fall off and since they are mostly Toyotas that is a rare.

Would you buy a used color TV or a refrigerator or living room sofa or bed. The few used things I have bought have been hugely costly in time and effort if not money and time is money and more valuable.

highanddry posted 08-30-2006 04:59 AM ET (US)     Profile for highanddry  Send Email to highanddry     
There is another reason, what if a person where to like the looks of and performance and features and quality of a newer product much beter than one he could get used even if the same brand? Are you going to wait several years for a used one? How much are those several years worth?
bsmotril posted 08-30-2006 12:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for bsmotril  Send Email to bsmotril     
Why do people buy and restore old Harleys, classic cars, or Warbirds? It's not logical, but it sure is fun if you like working on stuff.
BillS
andygere posted 08-30-2006 12:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
From a financial perspective, it's much better to buy "nearly new". A one or two year old rig will still have most of it's warranty, and in most cases not much wear and tear. Let the other guy leave pay the drive-off depreciation (and profit to the dealership). Many of these deals can be had, and are often a result of the original buyer relocating or simply not being able to afford the payments. In my mind, buying new is really nice, but it is fast becoming an unaffordable luxury, that is not really worth the price paid.
highanddry posted 08-30-2006 02:26 PM ET (US)     Profile for highanddry  Send Email to highanddry     
In this world there are the "new" people and the "used" people. The two shall never make peace. When you are looking over at the guy in the new boat and thinking why he paid all the money and how dumb he was you can be sure he is looking over at you thinking that you sure wish you had his new boat instead of that old clunker. New and used will never agree.

I appreciate about the restoring old cars, airplanes etc or boats or houses as a hobby/occupation/labor of love. I happen to have several such projects, a Van's RV7A aircraft, a MG, a 19 foot Lyman Lapstrake and it goes on and on. The fact is since this is the NEW Whaler forum that after looking at several old Whalers with water logged and suspect hulls and smoking engines I wanted a brand new one. The new ones are better built, better looking, more efficient and ride better with modern and efficient engines and I can AFFORD it. One man's junk is another's treasure, well, one man's treasure is also another man's junk.

SeattleDauntless posted 08-30-2006 06:13 PM ET (US)     Profile for SeattleDauntless  Send Email to SeattleDauntless     
I dunno.

I just bought a 2000 18' Dauntless for less than half what
a new one would cost me. Boat has 3 paint chips on it (nothing big), a few side scuffs (less than I would probably
put on it in a season or two), and 40 hours total on the
motor. It was owned by an attorney now in his 80's and
sold due to health issues. Including delivery from MN to
Sea WA, I paid less than half of a new one. Thing came to
me fully loaded with electric trolling motor, electric
downriggers, fenders, comfort package, all the covers but
a full boat cover, and a nice trailer. Same marina that
first sold it to 1st guy sold it for him. Guy who delivered
the boat did the original boat prep on it, and some of the
regular maintenance as well.

I understand buying things new, and yes I would buy my
sofa new. But I usually buy my vehicles with less than
15k miles and one year old. They look as nice as this boat
does.

Sure, you can get "problem" boats, cars, whatever. I bought
some used motors that became problems after they moved from
FL to WA once the weather turned cold. I also had a "new"
minivan that went thru two trans rebuilds and a new tranny
by 38k miles.

I've owned old and new houses as well, and they all have their good and bad points.

But i always come back to the idea of the depreciation once
you drive it ff the lot. And it just makes little sense to
eat all that depreciation when you don't have to -- when
there are guys who will flip their boat after a few years
and sell you a nice used one just cause it aain't new no
more.

Different strokes for different folks I guess...

poker13 posted 08-30-2006 07:26 PM ET (US)     Profile for poker13    
Sheesh, and I thought the 190 Montauk was bad!! BW pricing is getting out of hand. Where are the gold and silver-plated handrails and the ruby, diamond and saphire-encrusted appointments? For that kind of money you could buy a house a few years ago.
Rich M posted 08-30-2006 11:36 PM ET (US)     Profile for Rich M  Send Email to Rich M     
A nice 2005 210 Outrage demo (very low hours) without T-top recently sold from my local dealer for around $45k which I thought was a very good price. That factory T-top is a big money option.
YorkHarbor posted 08-31-2006 01:47 AM ET (US)     Profile for YorkHarbor  Send Email to YorkHarbor     
Guess I really got a steal! I got a 2004 brand new leftover in March of 2005 for less than $35k with an extended motor warranty, fishing package, and trailer.
highanddry posted 08-31-2006 04:42 AM ET (US)     Profile for highanddry  Send Email to highanddry     
Well, you can argue forever as I said , new and used people are totally differt types.

The 2000 Dauntless is six years old.

When you went looking for a boat were you looking for just any boat, any Boston Whaler or were you after a Dauntless 20? What if it were today and the boat you wanted was the Montauk 190?

My vehicle was ordered with specific options. The likelyhood of finding my vehicle used is slim to none. The options Iordered get are used and used often and the remainder is safty equipmet. Why if I can afford whatever I want would I settle for a car or baot that is not exactly what I want but is sorta close so just make do?

I would never buy a used car, I could buy a used boat.

The price structure may be out of control but y'all actually sound like old people talking about the good old days. This is the world you live in as a 20 yo (which I am not). By the time that 20 yo is my age he will be paying a lot more than the price we are talking about for a USED boat and he will be going on about his good deal.

Men always got the best deal, always got the biggest whatever, always paid less than the other fellow, some few of us don't care, we don't care if you paid less.

swist posted 08-31-2006 07:53 AM ET (US)     Profile for swist  Send Email to swist     
Rarely are new boats, even Whalers, delivered without at least a few manufacturing and/or dealer prep problems. You are always buying someone else's problems, new or used. But in the case of used, you are paying a lot less. If you buy from someone you trust who has already worked out the problems on the boat, you can be in a win-win situation with little or nothing to fix, and the benefit of that considerable out-the-door initial depreciation.
highanddry posted 08-31-2006 02:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for highanddry  Send Email to highanddry     
My boat had no issues and has not been back to the dealer for anything.

Used may be good if you get what you want or you don't care, some peole want what they want.

Again, if you want a Montauk 190, now, can you buy one used?

Sometimes y'all sound like my grandfatehr going on about how they worked for weeks for 30 cents and had to walk to school in the snow and those were the good old days. It don't snow where we lived and these are the good old days.

andygere posted 08-31-2006 02:38 PM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
SeattleDauntless, you hit the nail on the head, let the other guy pay the rediculous drive-off depreciation.

Regarding new cars versus new Whalers, there are some big differences. Nobody with a brain pays MSRP or anything close to it for a car. The inventory is huge, we all know what the dealer is paying (including off-invoice incentives) and the consumer has huge bargaining power. If your local dealer won't sell at a price you are willing to pay, there are probably several others within less than an hours drive (or willing to do business over the phone or internet) that are happy to sell you a car at a fair price. This includes special options, packages, etc.

This is not the case with new Boston Whaler boats. There are relatively few dealerships, and generally speaking a fairly limited number of boats in the dealership pipeline. Because of this, the dealers have more market power than consumers, and can keep there prices high. This is reinforced by a strong brand loyalty (e.g. many customers only want a new Whaler). If buying a brand new boat rigged just the way you like it is worth a price premium to you, by all means do it. Those of us looking for better pricing on the used market need new boat buyers to get the product into the used marketplace. My main point is that by buying nearly new (1-2 years old), you get most of the value of a new boat (reliability, good cosmetic condition, warranty, etc.) at a reduced price.

SeattleDauntless posted 08-31-2006 03:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for SeattleDauntless  Send Email to SeattleDauntless     
highanddry,

I was a lot more generic than you. I would have accepted
an 18 outrage (vintage or newer), a dauntless, or perhaps
even a ventura. might have even gone to 20', but really
wanted 18'.

My laundry list was:

Boston Whaler
18 ft min (to get the 8'beam)
Preference of CC v. bowrider style but either acceptable
Good trailer
Trailerable weight (which, having hauled bigger boats and
not enjoying it in the least dictated an 18' for me...)

My expected uses are:

Tubing the kids around the lake
"cocktail cruises" with friends on the lake
Quick runs across Puget Sound
Occasional fishing on Puget Sound.


What I did NOT get in the used boat:

Would have preferred a 150 v. the 135 but not critical
Actually like the simpler older premix engines as I can
wrench on them a little myself v. the complicated new ones.


What I got that I considered a bonus:

Eletcric anchor & 2 electric downriggers.
Remote foot control.
Lower end fishfinder.
Custom covers.
Electric Minnkota troller motor.
Fishing (w/3 seats) AND comfort packages.
Livewells

What I will add:

a full cover (sunbrella for $415)
a radio


What I am most happy about:

I saw a 2005 Dauntless a few days before delivery. My boat
looked nearly the same, had more features, and i paid less
that half a new one including shipping and tax/registration.

But I do have to say it is good there are the new boat buyers out there. Someone has to keep up the market for
us used boat buyers...

highanddry posted 09-01-2006 03:38 AM ET (US)     Profile for highanddry  Send Email to highanddry     
I am glad you like your boat. I therefore like your boat for you but I personally don't want a Dauntless, don't especially care for them and I did have more specific requirements and would not have settled for something other than what I wanted. Just as I had suspected you would have been happy with a number of boats. Some people want what they want. There is no way to justify a used boat that is not the boat I would want. Used and new will never see the same picture. I could not imagine getting a Dauntless or vice versa if that was not what I wanted just to save a few dollars I have plenty of.
Florida15 posted 09-01-2006 01:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for Florida15  Send Email to Florida15     
We are absolutely thrilled to death that you are loaded and we appreciate you letting us all know that (several times) but some people don't have a money tree so they try to save a few bucks.
In my case, I always buy used simply because my limited usage doesn't justify buying new. There's just no need in it.
That, plus I do not agree with you that the new ones are better built and better looking and if you look at resale values, apparently a lot of people feel like I do.
highanddry posted 09-01-2006 02:57 PM ET (US)     Profile for highanddry  Send Email to highanddry     
Well, Florida15, I am sorry I anger you, to bad, you just cannot accept the fact that some people are willing to pay a premium for a new vehicle or product. I am not much into dumpster diving, touche. Thank you for trying to be open minded. As I said, new people and used people are so different they are almost from different planets. Economic ruin does not befall people who purchase new. In fact, new is often cheaper than used when all of the costs/time/trouble/warranty/karma are included AND-- very important---that a wise purchase is made after extensive research such that the person (I)(they) get what they want to begin with. In this way the product will be satisfactory for many years and thus spreading the initial depreciation over many years reduces it to inconsequntial. In twenty years the extra cost of my purchase will be greatly reduced. Another aspect of this is that some people get a product and keep it for many years, decades, others --uh--jump ship evey few years or even days. Therefore there is no one solution for everybody. Some people may like a new boat or car every few years, more power to them, why does it upset you "used" people so much?

As to be loaded or not, you guys seem to rate PRICE point and money as the only important aspect of a purchase. I simply point out that some people have enough money that they can afford to consider other aspects of a purchase beyond the "money" aspect.

Did you walk to school barefooted in the snow?

J

highanddry posted 09-01-2006 03:08 PM ET (US)     Profile for highanddry  Send Email to highanddry     
I was once asked by a wise man when I was a young person, "is the cheapest deal always the best deal"? I have come to undertand his question, some of you have not.

Another approach to finacial ruin I have seen and participated in is this one, "some people will go to any expense to save a dollar". It is one of my favorites and I see it played out all the time, I learned eartly on it is not a game I like to play.

Good luck.

Florida15 posted 09-01-2006 03:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for Florida15  Send Email to Florida15     
You didn't anger me at all. Why would you ? I couldn't care less if you want to buy new. Great.
But just because I would rather spend less money on something that I use sparingly doesn't mean that I'm living in the dark ages. And yes, I could go buy new if I wanted to but don't see the sense in it.
I do buy new vehicles but that's just because my family uses vehicles everyday. I don't use my boat everyday and would rather put the money somewhere else. AND I would rather have a classic than a new boat. I think they look better, it's what I grew up with and it's what I prefer.
poker13 posted 09-01-2006 06:33 PM ET (US)     Profile for poker13    
I agree with highanddry that the only way to make that depreciation worth it is to keep the boat for a long, long time. That's the way I am with cars--I drive them into the ground (and then go and buy another used one :-0 )

"We must save money, whatever the cost"

-- some smart cat

SeattleDauntless posted 09-04-2006 09:26 PM ET (US)     Profile for SeattleDauntless  Send Email to SeattleDauntless     
If I could "guarantee" that the new boat I buy would be
the last boat I buy, and thus I would have it for 20 years,
I would probably buy a new one as well. Your arguement for
depreciation over that timeframes surely makes loads of sense.

However, having known several boats now, and many cars over
my lifetime, I am pretty sure the Dauntless will not be my
last boat. In fact, I can pretty much bet on it even now.
This is an interim boat that covers lots of uses well, but
none perfectly. When the kids are grown and in college, I
can bet there will be a different boat -- probably with a
different house and meybe even a different part of the
country, who knows...

And highanddry, I am by NO means trying to tell you to buy
a Dauntless. By all means you should have the vessel that
best suits your needs, not the one that best suits mine. That said, there is a part of your arguement early on that
clearly agrees with me:

"People have asked how I can afford a 45,000 dollar boat,
I look around trying to see what boat they are talking
about and then I realize, they mean my Nantucket. If
these boats are going at 45,000 now then that is 15,000
to(o) much."

It is that extra $15+k I avoid with my "used" boat. I
think that $15k is too much more as well...

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