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Author Topic:   20 ft Ventura - Trouble with max speed
paddyt111 posted 04-05-2008 05:14 PM ET (US)   Profile for paddyt111   Send Email to paddyt111  
I have just taken my a 2005 20 ft Ventura out for its first run yesterday. 225 Verado with stock SS Merc Mirage prop. I had all sorts of problems getting the RPM's and speed at the right level. The boat was just serviced. BW performance data says it will top out at 6150 RPM and top speed 49mph. I know performance will differ but the difference I found was huge!!

My First try
1/4 tank, two people at 175 lbs With engine trimmed at 3.0 and WOT all I was able to achieve was 5000rpm and 31 mph driving into a 1 foot chop. I had my bimini top open.

My Second try
After speak with the Marina service tech, he recommended that I trim the engine to within an inch of its life and see if the RPHs came up. I did this. I trimmed the engine to 9.7 at WOT and achieved 5750 RPM and only got the speed up to 34mph.

My questions are:
- Did the wind and the Bimini top act as a parachute and slow the boat down significantly?
- Do I need to try and trim the engine further than 9.7 to achieve 6000+ RPMs?
What do I do....

Pat

Casco Bay Outrage posted 04-05-2008 05:38 PM ET (US)     Profile for Casco Bay Outrage  Send Email to Casco Bay Outrage     
Pat -

Have you run the boat at a faster speed or are you comparing the performance to the whaler site?

There is no "stock" prop so we need to know the size.

In what position is your engine mounted? How many blank holes are there between the bolt and the top of the bracket.

Do you know the distance the anti-cavitation plate of the engine is from the bottom of the keel when trimmed down fully?

What was the wind and tidal conditions? A good way to get a accurate measurement is to run back and forth into and down wind. Stow the bimini in the down position, it is a drag on speed.

How was speed measured? Via the engine or GPS?

C B O

paddyt111 posted 04-05-2008 06:04 PM ET (US)     Profile for paddyt111  Send Email to paddyt111     
To answer your questions.
- It is the same prop that BW used to run their tests.
- Engine is mounted same as it was received from BW
- I have not had better results before as it was the first time since I purchased the boat
- I did not run tests both ways...into the wind and with the wind

I was hoping to find out whether the bimini top could make a significant difference or might it be something mechanical?

Should I have tried to trim the engine further than 9.7?
Pat

bluewaterpirate posted 04-05-2008 08:02 PM ET (US)     Profile for bluewaterpirate  Send Email to bluewaterpirate     
Do you have trim tabs? If so make sure they're in the up position. Play around with the engine trim.

I can get 47.1 out of my 2002 with a 225 Opti (5355 rpms) fully loaded (5300 lbs) = 3 souls onboard, 100 lbs of ice, 91 gallons of gas, 10 gallons of water, about 100 lbs of fishing equipment), liferaft 68 lbs, Florentine para anchor 35 lbs. and the Bimini up.

The 225 Opti is stronger running than the 225 Verado.

Tom

paddyt111 posted 04-05-2008 09:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for paddyt111  Send Email to paddyt111     
I'm from Canada and am down in Florida arranging to have my new (to me) Whaler transported to Newfoundland. After my test run and your comments, you guys seem to be confirming my suspicions. I am going to have the BW/Verado dealer in Fort Myers take it out and trouble shoot the problem. They can try the trim, check the engine and possibly sell me a new prop. I hate to have the engine to do 45+ and have something simple preventing me from doing this.

I was hoping to have a good perspective on the problem so they wouldn't take me to the cleaners.

Incidentally, I love my new Whaler. Quiet as a mouse. You have love the electronic fuel injection.
Pat

Casco Bay Outrage posted 04-05-2008 11:23 PM ET (US)     Profile for Casco Bay Outrage  Send Email to Casco Bay Outrage     
Pat -

BlueWater is a fellow Ventura owner and I defer to him.


Is this a new (i.e. left-over) 2005 or a pre-owned boat?

Please don't be offended by this. Just because it came from the dealer does not make it rigged for optimum performance.

It sounds (to me) that the engine is rigged too low (more drag) and/or the prop could be less that ideal for that boat/motor. Verado's can be picky on props due to the gear ratio's. You are 10 mph below Tom's performance. Wind and waves could account for some of this. Since you are not hitting WOT, it appears to be rigging.

While you can deal with these at home, since you are still at the dealer, chances are good you can get them to raise the engine or swap out the prop if that is the issue. It also could be the throttle linkage is not set correctly. If you did these things yourself/at home you could be looking at $750 in parts and labor.

I would pose the same question to the dealer that you are posing to us:

Why will the boat not meet the specs. Have them take you out on the boat on the water and PROVE IT TO YOU. If the engine gets within 200 rpms of WOT and 5 mph of the specs, I would be happy with it.

Tom - Am I off base, you know better than I.


glen e posted 04-06-2008 12:20 AM ET (US)     Profile for glen e  Send Email to glen e     
when you are this far off, it's probably not props or engine height. I'd check the pencil coils to see you're firing on all 6....
paddyt111 posted 04-06-2008 08:45 AM ET (US)     Profile for paddyt111  Send Email to paddyt111     
All great suggestions. I will pose these to the BW dealer in Fort Myers and post the results. Many thanks for all the great suggestions. Pat
mattrix posted 04-06-2008 06:29 PM ET (US)     Profile for mattrix  Send Email to mattrix     
My 210 Ventura hits 37 mph in a flat sea with a 200 Opti, full tank with 4 adults, bimini top up and bottom paint. Not sure about my prop type, I can find out Tuesday if needed.
paddyt111 posted 04-06-2008 06:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for paddyt111  Send Email to paddyt111     
Thanks Mattrix. I will know more shortly and will post.
bluewaterpirate posted 04-06-2008 07:47 PM ET (US)     Profile for bluewaterpirate  Send Email to bluewaterpirate     
Tombro will be shortly .... he has your exact boat. He can give you some solid numbers to use a reference.
tombro posted 04-06-2008 08:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for tombro  Send Email to tombro     
Yeah, I have to re-try my performance curve this spring. I know I have broken 40 kts with the same hull and engine, with full canvas up.
paddyt111 posted 04-09-2008 10:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for paddyt111  Send Email to paddyt111     
OK - I have to eat crow!! Here's what happened when I took out the service tech to diagnose the problem. The trim tabs toggles are installed opposite to my old boat. SO....MY TRIM TABS WERE DOWN :(

He popped them up and guess what....the RPM's went to 6000 and the speed went to 43mph. It was truly embarrassing! The Marina owner said, "I knew with a real man at the controls there was nothing wrong". I held my tongue and took it like a man. Thanks for all the great advice. It was a learning experience. Pat

bluewaterpirate posted 04-09-2008 11:09 PM ET (US)     Profile for bluewaterpirate  Send Email to bluewaterpirate     
Pat ....

Your going to love your Ventura it's one terrific ride ...... congrats and be safe. Post some pictures when you get her home!

Tom

mattrix posted 04-10-2008 06:28 AM ET (US)     Profile for mattrix  Send Email to mattrix     
My tabs are installed according to bow up or down, not tabs up or down, and so it messes me up every time for some reason.

I think bow down is tabs down, port side down is starboard button down, and starboard side down is port button down... I think!

Glad you figured it out.

Matt

tombro posted 04-10-2008 09:10 AM ET (US)     Profile for tombro  Send Email to tombro     
Good news, paddy. Now stop scaring me ^_^
paddyt111 posted 04-10-2008 09:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for paddyt111  Send Email to paddyt111     
Roger that!
tombro posted 04-18-2008 04:27 PM ET (US)     Profile for tombro  Send Email to tombro     
Finally got out on a perfect day for engine testing. Windless, with no wakes and slack tide, which is pretty much unheard of on New Jersey's Barnegat Bay (locals can attest).
First trip of the season, actually, with a new set of plugs just this March. As I said the conditions were ideal, water temp was 60, and the air was 67. At WOT, tabs up, and trimmed to 10 degrees my 210 Ventura/Verado 225 combo achieved 6000 rpm and 44 mph. Very acceptable, as I had a full 92 gals of fuel, 20 gals of water, me (200#), and full canvas up, including weather curtains. So, with better aerodynamics, she would have probably hit 6200 and close to 48 mph, methinks.
I'm satisfied.
paddyt111 posted 04-22-2008 07:21 PM ET (US)     Profile for paddyt111  Send Email to paddyt111     
Tombro....Thanks for the thorough run down. I will also run the same test once the boat gets to Newfoundland. Mine is a 2005 (same as yours??) I expect it on May 4th. Pat
tombro posted 04-23-2008 07:40 AM ET (US)     Profile for tombro  Send Email to tombro     
Yes, it is a 2005. Was built in May 2005, and shipped to my dealer (after we ordered it) at the end of June 2005. We pulled into the dealership just as the Whaler truck was delivering her from Florida, enrobed in shrink wrap. You could way we were with her right from the get-go. Hope you are as happy with yours as we are with ours.
Just yesterday my new helmseat arrived, which will look pretty fly when installed this weekend.
mattrix posted 04-23-2008 10:26 AM ET (US)     Profile for mattrix  Send Email to mattrix     
What type of helm seat did you get?
tombro posted 04-23-2008 02:31 PM ET (US)     Profile for tombro  Send Email to tombro     
I got an HS-2 teak ladderback from Arrigoni Design.
paddyt111 posted 04-23-2008 08:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for paddyt111  Send Email to paddyt111     
Tom - WHY NOT POST A photo LINK TO THE NEW SEAT? Incidentally, why did you want a new seat? I have only had a couple of rides in my Ventura but the seat seemed just fine? But hey, what do I know!!

I went through the paper work that came with the boat, it was made in Nov 04 and purchased in December 04. They call it a 2005 model though! The fellow who owned it had several boats and when I purchased it in late January it had 124 hours. All the service records were there, completed by the BW Verado dealer in Fort Myers. Stored on a rack and in near pristine condition.I had all the service work done before I picked her up. 100 hour service plus plugs, themostat etc

The thing I notice the most is how quiet the 225 Verado is. Several times when I was at idle, I wondered if the engine was on. Sweet!!(as my son says). I also took the liberty to install the 'keel shield'. The bay where I boat is called Bonavista Bay, near Glovertown on the East coast of Newfoundland, where most of the islands in the bay have rocky beaches.(If you have a moment you should Google Earth the location) Lots of Islands, whales and Icebergs (in June)

I'm pretty pleased with the price...your opinion??The boat came with the following options...freshwater shower, coaming bolsters, head with macerating disharge, suite of GPS VHF etc, full weather covers, canvas cover package trim tabs, Clarion stereo... paid $40,000. In addition I had to purchase a new trailer, have her fully serviced and hired a guy to tow her to Newfoundland.

I have two questions...Do you use your trim tabs much? What conditions? You mentioned you use your full weather covers, is the visibility ok when you get some salt spray on the glass and plastic? The wiper seems a little small.
Sorry for rambling. Pat

tombro posted 04-24-2008 07:46 AM ET (US)     Profile for tombro  Send Email to tombro     
I'll post a pic of the helm once I have one. I still use film (imagine that!) and it is not as instant as digital services.

I enjoy upgrading/customizing my boats. Last season I replaced the stock wheel with a Schmitt stainless 3 spoke destroyer w/ an Edson power knob. I also upgraded this spring to a Lewmar Delta anchor from the dealer supplied Danforth.

I have interfaced my GPS to the speedometer on the dash, too. You can then disable the pitot readout on the Smartcraft, which is always broadcasting alarms. Next on tap is interfacing my Garmin chartplotter with the ICOM M502 VHF for full DSC capability.

Your purchase price is right on the money, pun intended.

I use the trim tabs all the time, and have had them on 3 different craft over the years. In particular, they are great for picking up the windward side of the boat to minimize spray, and for leveling loads. I also tend to drop the bow into chop for a better ride, by cutting the waves.

One thing we have to pay attention to on the model year 2005 Mercury Verado engines is the thermostat dump fitting, which you can search the Veradoclub site for. Seems they can blow in the 400-800 hour range, and should be replaced by a new brass unit.

Finally, visibility is OK at reduced speeds with the Strataglas enclosure, although I rarely am out in rainy weather.
Tom

bluewaterpirate posted 04-24-2008 08:36 AM ET (US)     Profile for bluewaterpirate  Send Email to bluewaterpirate     
I use my enclosure offshore it makes a difference. You can use Rainex on the glass it really beads the water and helps in running in heavier rain. The tabs are your friend as Tom pointed out. I use mine all the time especially when running in choppy conditions 3 - 5'. Use them to keep the bow down so as to cut thru the waves. As Tom said, "Great for load leveling/wind leveling.

Tom

paddyt111 posted 04-25-2008 09:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for paddyt111  Send Email to paddyt111     
Two questions
Trim Tabs
With regards to the trim tabs. You mention about using them when heading into a chop to reduce spray and achieve a smoother ride by keeping the bow down. Do you have them all the way down or just part way? And do ever need to use them in a following sea?
Full weather covers
You talk about using full covers off shore. I know the weather is usually warm, so are you using them just while you're traveling to reduce spray?
tombro posted 04-26-2008 07:05 AM ET (US)     Profile for tombro  Send Email to tombro     
The tabs are set by feel, but generally not full-down.

I leave my curtains up all the time, and catch a breeze from under the walkthru if warm out. As pilothouse owners will attest, it is not as hot as one would think under the canvas. My back is open, as I don't have a drop rear for travel, only for mooring. So, I get enough air for comfort.

On cool days like today, I will re-attach the bow deck mooring canvas once underway, to keep snug. On my way down now...

paddyt111 posted 04-27-2008 12:47 PM ET (US)     Profile for paddyt111  Send Email to paddyt111     
Do you mean when you say " you keep the curtains up all the time" that you keep the sides and the window piece that connects to the windshield?

I found that you can get a fair amount of spray when hitting waves on an angle, it strikes me that the side curtains would be a great help. As for it being too warm, we don't have that problem here in Newfoundland.

It's all about breaking the wind... Thank for your reply.
Pat

tombro posted 04-28-2008 08:40 AM ET (US)     Profile for tombro  Send Email to tombro     
Yes, paddy, I keep the clear connecting Strataglas up all the time for protection against spray. Yesterday it came in very handy in a rather nautical NE blow on the bay. My wife loves these curtains; me, too.
bluewaterpirate posted 04-28-2008 08:46 AM ET (US)     Profile for bluewaterpirate  Send Email to bluewaterpirate     
Paddy

Had the curtains up during our transit to the fishing grounds on Saturday they can really make the Ventura toasty and dry. Here's the link to some pictures of our offshore adventure. Tombro is correct in his assessment of the curtains

http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/016040.html

As to the trim tabs and their use ... all I can say is their worth their wait in gold in the ocean. You can trim the boat to minize spray, weight leveling, and comfort of run. When you get your boat the best thing to do is experiment with them.

Tom

Jordi posted 04-28-2008 09:15 AM ET (US)     Profile for Jordi    
Paddy,
As you familiarize yourself with the trim tabs, experiment with them all the way down and tilting the engine up to decrease your fuel consumption. Once you master your trim tabs you will enjoy some rough seas “comfortably”.
Enjoy,
Jordi
paddyt111 posted 04-30-2008 10:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for paddyt111  Send Email to paddyt111     
Sorry to belabor the trim tab thing... You guys have been great.
When you have the engine trimmed up, do you find reasons to use the trim tabs then or do you use them primarily with the engine all the way down? Sorry if this sounds a little basic. Paddy
bluewaterpirate posted 04-30-2008 11:02 PM ET (US)     Profile for bluewaterpirate  Send Email to bluewaterpirate     
You can use the tabs anytime there is a need and at any speed or engine trim position.

Here's some great tab use inforamtion from the folks at Bennett Trim Tabs.

http://www.bennetttrimtabs.com/tabsdo.htm

Tom

bluewaterpirate posted 04-30-2008 11:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for bluewaterpirate  Send Email to bluewaterpirate     
Here's a Tab Sim Program that has some merit.

http://www.bennetttrimtabs.com/simulator.htm

Tom

HAPPYJIM posted 04-30-2008 11:11 PM ET (US)     Profile for HAPPYJIM  Send Email to HAPPYJIM     
paddy, in the 70's, I spent 6 summers in St John's doing Iceberg Patrol with the US Coast Guard. My lovely ex-wife (bless her heart) came from a fishing family down in Torbay. I've been out many times jiggin for cod in wooden dorys and never saw any fiberglass boats on the water up there. Is that changing?
paddyt111 posted 05-01-2008 05:24 AM ET (US)     Profile for paddyt111  Send Email to paddyt111     
Hi Jim...I understand the US Coast Guard are still doing the ice patrol here in Newfoundland. There was an article on the evening news just the other day about it saying the US has been doing this ever since the sinking of the Titanic. And yes, things are a changing. Offshore oil has made Newfoundland a great deal more prosperous. Although looking at the boats at the Torbay dock still will never compare to a Florida marina, it has improved.

Well it is ice berg season now and my 20 ft BW Ventura is scheduled to be here on Saturday. It crossed the border at Maine yesterday. I can't wait to get out in her. I keep my boat in Bonavista Bay where during the summers we've been know to catch a few 25 lb cod fish

The guys here on the forum having been babbysitting me while I wait for my boat to arrive :) Thanks guys...I'll be sure to post all sorts of photo....

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