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Author Topic:   Bad gas saga continues - 135 Verado 2007 190 Outrage
RonB posted 09-22-2008 08:38 PM ET (US)   Profile for RonB   Send Email to RonB  

My saga with bad gas continues and I need your help, as I can't believe this is a problem with my Verado or my 2007 Outrage.

I posted some months ago about a water in gas problem, that was how it was diagnosed by my dealer. I had the water in the gas alarm and returned it to my dealer after repeated draining of the fuel/water separator. I also bought a couple of red topped fuel/water separator filters and the special star tool from Glen. I figured after getting it back from the dealer I would be better prepared for this water in fuel alarm.

At the initial trip to the dealer, the fuel module was replaced under warranty. The boat ran fine for a few weeks and the problem returned. I did put a fresh ten gallons of fuel into the tank between visits to the dealer.

The second trip to the dealer I was told I had water in the fuel and they drained 8 gallons of gas and picked up about a gallon of water. They told me all was fine and that they added additives and that I should run the tank down to about 5 gallons, then put a 10 fresh gallons in it, run that 15 gallons down to to 5 gallons again and then fill it up. I was charged over $300 for the service.

Well, today, with 6 gallons in the tank I went to run it over to the marina gas dock for a fresh 10 gallons, before I got there I got the water in the fuel alarm again. I returned to my dock, unscrewed the fuel water separator and drained the contents in a mason jar.

Here is the jar:


My first question is, is this water? or a bunch of additive crap on top of my gas, or something else?

My second question is, does anybody know the best way to completely drain the tank of a 190 Outrage?

Incidently, the boat starts and will idle all day, however if I engage neutral at the dock, I am limited to 2500 rpm before I get an over-rev condition, no doubt the guardian system protecting the motor. I could let it idle at the dock until she uses up all the gas, but at this point I think draining the tank is the best recourse. I am not even sure we are talking about water at this point. Any suggestions?


seabob4 posted 09-22-2008 08:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for seabob4  Send Email to seabob4     
You know, all sites should use the same ubb. Lt's try this: 2007%20Outrage%2019/?action=view¤t=wateringas003.jpg

Now let's see the pic.

RonB posted 09-22-2008 09:04 PM ET (US)     Profile for RonB  Send Email to RonB     
Thanks Bob, I've only been doing this here since 2003..LOL...
jammer posted 09-23-2008 12:09 PM ET (US)     Profile for jammer  Send Email to jammer     
Wow, can't be 100% certain just from looking at a photo, but it certainly looks like water. If you pour it onto something flat, the gas should disperse evenly, and the water would appear more like globules. I would think that any additives would mix uniformly with the gas and not seperate out. I would consider trying a seperate fuel source such as a portable 5 gallon outboard tank. It should not be difficult to rig up. If the engine operates properly with a known good fuel source, than you will confirm that the boat's tank is contaminated. Then on to draining the tank and finding better fuel.
Buckda posted 09-23-2008 12:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
Have you been returning to the same fuel dock or have you switched suppliers?

My guess is that it's more likely you have a gasket that is misaligned on the fuel tank cap or something like that which is allowing washdown water or rain water into the tank. That appears to be a significant amount of water in the tank.

Here's how you test the marina gas: bring a 1 gallon portable tank (think weedwacker gas can) to the marina fuel dock and take some fuel. Then immediately take it home and do the mason jar thing. If the phase separation occurs like above, you have your problem. Send them the previous repair bill and the next one.

If the fuel is not the problem, inspect the fuel-hose fittings on the tank, the filler hose and the vent. Water is getting in somewhere! It could be a cracked or poorly seated gasket/seal or a rigging error somewhere on the fuel tank.

Perry posted 09-23-2008 01:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for Perry  Send Email to Perry     
Remove the deck hatch located behind the console and open the tank. Put a syphon hose in there and drain the entire tank. Make shure the boat is level.

Is the water coming from the Marina fuel station? Are others who get fuel there complaining of water in their fuel?

JMARTIN posted 09-23-2008 01:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for JMARTIN  Send Email to JMARTIN     
Wow, from a fuel guy, that looks weird. Looks like the water is floating on the gas. Why is that gas so cloudy? Is it conventional gasoline? Is the stuff on the bottom water? Have you checked it with water finding paste? Have you checked with the marina? John
RonB posted 09-23-2008 01:33 PM ET (US)     Profile for RonB  Send Email to RonB     
I want to solve this fuel problem before I decide to pump the tank. If it is water, then yes, I need to find the source, if it is an additive, then I need to find the source of the additive, ie, during service, or at the pump.

Fuel has come from three different marina's, it's difficult to point at one marina. Recent rain and a close to empty tank (condensation) may contribute.

Shouldn't water be 'under' the gas?, and not above it? If water should be under the gas in this mason jar could this be an additive that was added to my gas?


RonB posted 09-23-2008 01:41 PM ET (US)     Profile for RonB  Send Email to RonB     

Where could I pick up the water finding paste? An automotive store? I'll check the jar when I get home tonight and report back.

I'm thinking about another thread I read where someone disconnected their filler tube and vent tube under their filler cap, and then, with the cap back on, used a garden hose to pour water over the cap and observed from underneath if any water was entering. If this is water, then yes, I will drain the tank, but before putting gas back in, I want to find the source of the water.


JMARTIN posted 09-23-2008 01:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for JMARTIN  Send Email to JMARTIN     
Go to your local oil Distributor or the like, that delivers fuel to tanks. Water finding paste is in a tube like toothpaste. You smear some on a stick and stick the tank. It will turn color if it hits water. I would grab the jar and take it into the oil distributor. Have a "not involved" pro look at it. John
Buckda posted 09-23-2008 02:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
One thing is certain. Until you solve this fuel problem, you're done boating - or else you need to use on-deck portable tanks. I would not knowingly put whatever is in your mason jar into my expensive, state-of-the-art VERADO motor.

Good luck, and let us know what is going on.


RonB posted 09-23-2008 03:51 PM ET (US)     Profile for RonB  Send Email to RonB     

I agree, that's some nasty looking stuff, and to see it come out of the fuel/water canister is disheartening.


A quick check during lunch proved that 'water paste' a tough find. I see I can pick it up online, otherwise I'm going to hit up a few gas stations on the way home to see if they can give me a dab. The first station I hot, the guy didn't speak English or didn't want to help me. He was friendly, just not helpful.

Once I figure this out, I'll post more info. I am also going to call my service folks to see what if any, types of additives they have added to my fuel during this summers service and last winters winterization. Again, I'll keep you posted.


JMARTIN posted 09-23-2008 04:26 PM ET (US)     Profile for JMARTIN  Send Email to JMARTIN     
Not gas station, the guy who delivers to the gas station, the guy who would deliver your home heating oil, or to a farm. The guy with the delivery trucks. John
Buckda posted 09-23-2008 04:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
It probable that what you're seeing in the image above is phase separation for your ethanol blended fuel.

http:/ / images. google. com/ imgres?imgurl=http:/ / www. russomarine. c om/ boat_graphics/ TemplateSites/ DTS/ DealerLibraries/ 8832/ ethanol. j pg& imgrefurl=http:/ / www. russomarine. com/ content. asp%3Fnav%3D90025 %26cpid%3D3386%26& h=288& w=416& sz=10& hl=en& start=1& um=1& usg=__n2Ff A84r-T78s7H6FRClGjlT7y0=& tbnid=kcf_o-vlSoLOAM:& tbnh=87& tbnw=125& prev =/ images%3Fq%3DPhase%2Bseparation%2Bof%2Bfuel%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rls% 3Dcom. microsoft:en-us:IE-Address%26rlz%3D1I7ADBR%26sa%3DN

According to what I've read, the only solution at this point is to drain the tank. I agree that you need to find out where the water is coming from, so the next question is about your storage methods, how much fuel you left in the tank over the winter, how large the tank capacity is, etc. The second link above provides some good information on how little time it may take for an open "vented" tank such as that in your boat can exhange enough air to induce phase separation (it's not very long). it's not a problem with your Verado and it may not be a problem with your Outrage - it may be a problem with how you store the boat, and if you keep the tanks topped off or not.


JMARTIN posted 09-23-2008 05:22 PM ET (US)     Profile for JMARTIN  Send Email to JMARTIN     
Hey Ron, take a look.

This was conventional gasoline, no ethanol. John

RonB posted 09-23-2008 05:31 PM ET (US)     Profile for RonB  Send Email to RonB     
Thanks for the link Dave, I read that article last night on the Mercury web site, it does indeed look like I'll be emptying the tank.


Yes, I understand what you've told (written) me, I was thinking that maybe gas station owners may have this paste around as well as they often check their tanks with those long poles and I wondered if they also checked for water.

Bottom line is I'll pump it all out, I can always test it then. I'll post more as I proceed.

Anybody have a good suggestion for pumping the tank without too much difficulty? With the boat out of the water, can I disconnect the fuel line at the motor, attach another hose via a brass connector and siphon down to ground level into containers? I'd prefer not to mess with opening up the tank if it means I have to break a gasket seal.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Perry posted 09-23-2008 06:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for Perry  Send Email to Perry     
Ron. I have the same boat as you and when I switched from using gasoline with 10% ethanol to ethanol free gas, I drained the tank. There was about 10 gallons left and I did what I described above with relative ease. Open the hatch and take a look, there is no seal just screws securing the cap and a rubber gasket.
RonB posted 09-23-2008 09:23 PM ET (US)     Profile for RonB  Send Email to RonB     

Thanks, I didn't know you had the same boat, I will do as you say. Boat will come out on Saturday. I also talked to my Dad (an old retired BMW dealer and mechanic from Europe)in Florida, who said the same thing, basically, "geez Ron, remove the access cover, find the cover plate on top of the tank, take it off, and siphon the tank, didn't I teach you anything?" Knowing that you've already done this makes feel better about doing this myself. I will take pictures of this process.

Thanks again Perry.


highanddry posted 09-23-2008 10:14 PM ET (US)     Profile for highanddry  Send Email to highanddry     
Any suggestions, yeah, find another place to purchase fuel from and be more discriminating about such purchases. Also, have the fuel cell professionally drained and cleaned of water or at the very least drain it completely yourself. COMPLETELY.
contender posted 09-23-2008 10:44 PM ET (US)     Profile for contender  Send Email to contender     
First Gas floats in water, water will sink to the bottom of the tank, What about a leak in your fuel tank? If you are getting water/trash in your fuel its only coming from two places, were you purchase your fuel or a leak in the tank. If you have a leak in the engine the filter will not pick it up the water is beyond the fuel filter. First empty your tank completely, You can drain your fuel by disconnecting the fuel line from the filter and place another hose out the side of the boat into an empty tank, Now blow some air into the vent to start the siphon. Bad fuel: try filling a portable tank(12 gallons) then check it before filling/placing it into your boat tank, now run your engine. If you pick up water now you know the tank has a leak and is sucking in water, cause you started with a clean tank and checked the gas before placing it in the tank...good luck
RonB posted 09-23-2008 11:20 PM ET (US)     Profile for RonB  Send Email to RonB     
Thanks Contender...on a final note I just poured about an inch of water into that Mason Jar. It's all mixed up and in the process of settling. I'll check in the morning. If three separations are created with the water I just poured in at the bottom,as it should be, then the crap at the top is not water but perhaps an additive added either by my dealer or at the pump. It's all coming out anyway, but I'd still like to know what the top layer is in the sample I pulled from the fuel/water canister.
Virginia Gentleman posted 09-25-2008 09:20 AM ET (US)     Profile for Virginia Gentleman    

I have a number of friends with the same boat,most with Verados but one with an Optimax as well. They all have had the same issue. Switching to ethanol free fuel will help out a great bit but not solve the problem. Your fuel tank is vented and it will accumulate some degree of water regardless. It is especially pronounced with rapid temperature changes, especially in the spring and fall.

In each case the remedy, although not a true solution, is to add a second in line fuel filter. It will simply give you more time between water in fuel alarms. You still need to empty the water out of each filter. The ethanol compounds the problem greatly. The Verado is very sensitive to water in fuel and throws an alarm whereas in older motors you might be blissfully boating along without knowing you have water in the tank.

I hope this information is helpful

bluewaterpirate posted 09-25-2008 09:52 AM ET (US)     Profile for bluewaterpirate  Send Email to bluewaterpirate     
I have a 2002 225 Optimax that I've been running E10 in for over a year and haven't had one fuel related issue. I keep the tank at 90% on the trailer. Usually run 50 gallons out a least once a month. I change the on motor fuel water seperator after 100 hours of use and have no installed racor bewteen the fuel tanks and motor. My Whaler has a ploy fuel tank.
RonB posted 09-25-2008 11:07 AM ET (US)     Profile for RonB  Send Email to RonB     
VG, thanks for the tip on the second filter, I've heard this before and have also heard the counter point on the second inline filter creating problems for the Verado. I'm going to do more research on this and try to find the best filter that will not casue issues with the Verado.

The course I am taking is to haul the boat and empty the tank completely this weekend. I'll put fresh gas in it and run it, then to be safe I'll replace the red canister fuel/water filter and white fuel filter.

The venting process on this poly tank brings up a winterization issue though. Should a northeast boat, with a poly tank that vents and has e-10 in it, be completely empty for the winter layup months, or completely filled?

Blue,my previous boat(2000 18 Outrage) had a 90 gallon aluminum tank and a 135HP Opti (and probably gas without e-10) and I left it filled and treated with Stabil during the winter. Never had a problem, but that Opti would shake , rattle and roll and spit out anything it didn't like and just keep on going.

For winterizing, I'm wondering if it is best to run the boat tank completely down, drain what little e-10 is remaining, and start fresh in the spring? Or fill it to the top with e-10, treat it, and hope the little available space left for venting will not cause a phase separation?

First things first though.. I want to enjoy the rest of the fall season here on the Hudson, so I need to get this bad gas out.


Perry posted 09-25-2008 12:26 PM ET (US)     Profile for Perry  Send Email to Perry     
Ron, is there a place nearby where you can buy ethanol free gasoline?
Perry posted 09-25-2008 01:17 PM ET (US)     Profile for Perry  Send Email to Perry     
I don't think it is an issue with just the 190 Outrage. All Whalers built within the last 7 years have vented poly tanks.
Tohsgib posted 09-25-2008 01:53 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tohsgib  Send Email to Tohsgib     
How is the jar now...gas floats on water so that will be interesting to see. Easiest way to drain tank is put on a trailer. Tilt the nose up, remove gas line and syphon into container/s. I did my 19 that way with about 25 gals and it tokk like 1/2 hour so 6 gals so be 10 minutes or so.
RonB posted 09-25-2008 06:08 PM ET (US)     Profile for RonB  Send Email to RonB     

No place that I know of in New York State to buy gas without ethenol. Bigshot, I'm going to drain from the top of the tank with a siphon hose that I'll attach a yard stick on to direct where I want to put it in the bottom of the tank, removing the access plate, I'm told the pickup for the fuel line is not directly ON the bottom of the tank, and I don't want to chance any water remaining in the bottom of the tank.


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