posted 04-27-2009 10:04 PM ET (US)        

I decided to take it out again today after printing the Smartcraft display manual from the internet just in case the problem happened again. Twenty minutes into the ride and about 6 miles from the dock cruising at 24 knots the boat just stopped and the Smartcraft display showed a "critical communication fault" and shut down all power to the engine. It would idle but I had no power at the throttle. Shut off the engine and I could not restart the engine. Had to call the marina for a tow and have the boat pulled from the water and placed on the trailer. Heading back to the dealer in the morning with my new boat with two hours on it. Not exactly what I expected buying a new boat with a new FOURSTROKE engine.

posted 04-27-2009 10:39 PM ET (US)         

quote:

---

What do you think a good dealer should do in this case?

---

posted 04-27-2009 10:52 PM ET (US)            

You maybe pleasantly surprised, Mercury used to include $500 of towing coverage as part of warranty.(2002)

If not you might check your insurance, ours covers $500 towards towing.

posted 04-28-2009 08:35 AM ET (US)            

If you wanted coverage for towing, it would have been your responsibility to negotiate with the dealer in advance (unlikely) , or purchase that from an appropriate vendor.

Just as you would not expect the dealer to come back to you and say, "oh, we want more money for that boat now" after the sale, the dealer doesn't expect you to come back and expect more than you and the dealer agreed with.

posted 04-28-2009 09:06 AM ET (US)            

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, so please dont take this wrong. You had experienced a problem with your new engine, you didnt know what the problem was and you decided to take the boat out again without diagnosing the problem and you didnt have a backup plan.

"Motor did restart and I headed back to the dock....I was not sure how to read what caused the problem. I decided to take it out again today...just in case the problem happened again". I would not have done that.

I hope that the dealer works things out for you. As others have stated, I highly recommend that you join BoatUS. Having that coverage turns a big financial hassle into a minor inconvenience. It's also not very expensive at all.

posted 04-28-2009 12:56 PM ET (US)            

I don't know about Rhode Island in this regard, but it's worth a try in small claims court if the dealer won't step up to the plate. Stuff happens, and we all hope that the dealer will do the right thing after making a $35K sale in these tough economic times, but if he won't...go get him and good luck.

posted 04-28-2009 02:20 PM ET (US)            

given that information, I would expect the dealer to pay for the tow (if, in fact, they neglected to follow through on something, if it was your responsibility to initiate the Sea Tow membership, I would think it would fall back on you.)

posted 04-28-2009 02:37 PM ET (US)            

You had a 101 or 103 fualt code both require this .........

http://cdn-2-service.phanfare.com/images/4892322_2160052_67407295_Web_3/ Image-4892322-67407295-2-Web_0_d648de2b8d9b5fd60a17ca48df800a8f_1

posted 04-28-2009 03:12 PM ET (US)            

but, what if there was no intention to use the "nest"?

posted 04-28-2009 03:47 PM ET (US)         

If so there could be dual responsability, depending on fault, in addition to the safe sea cover issue.

I'm sadden for your loss of enjoyment with your new boat, but it will be soon forgotten is the only good news.

It's a shame as 500 sobs is a good 25-30% towards a kicker

posted 04-29-2009 08:20 AM ET (US)            

quote:

---

"Dealer called and the motor needs a new "computer" that will be sent from Mercury."

---

That's what they tell the customer when they have no idea what is causing the problem. Resolving intermittent problems in a complex electronic system can be very frustrating.

posted 04-29-2009 03:15 PM ET (US)         

quote:

---

there is no way all local mechanics can get all trained in the complexities of the smartcraft communications protocols and associated components.

---

Sorry can't agree with this, computer diagnostics has been with our cars for years now and is a good as role model as any.

I don't know about Merc but Evinrude make the majority of info available to the consumer with a laptop and some basic software, let alone what a dealer has access to.

Fortunatly for hockeycrew it should be a warranty issue but if every time you have a problem with comms/engine they just swap out the management system, then we might as well get serviced/repaired at at any 7/11 store.

This is classic western indulgence and devalues skills that the third world simple finds inconceivable.

Sorry off my soap box now,

hockeycrew best wishes for return to water activities and I hope you get some money back.

posted 04-29-2009 08:57 PM ET (US)            

Last week we had our first real problem with one of the new workstations. What did we do? We immediately gave the user a new workstation--the extra one we had--and took their workstation with us for more diagnostic testing.

It did not take long to discover the actual cause of the malfunction the user was getting with his workstation. With the unit on the bench we luckily found the actual cause of the original problem. It was a trivial problem, not really related at all to the new workstation, but actually something external to it. There was nothing wrong with the workstation at all.

I mention this because when we replaced the user's workstation, we did not actually remedy the problem with the new workstation. In the process of replacing it we inadvertently remedied the actual problem without realizing it. But as far as the user knew, they got a new workstation and the problem went away.

This is much like the remedy given to hockeycrew by having the engine control unit replaced. I suspect that the dealer really did not have any evidence or testing that pointed directly to the ECU as the problem; they just replaced it to see if that would fix the problem.

The dealer will probably send the original ECU back to Mercury to have it tested and evaluated. If Mercury finds an actual problem, it would be nice, because that would mean that the original cause of the malfunction has been found and replacement of the ECU was a real remedy.

posted 04-29-2009 10:26 PM ET (US)            

I am going to give you a brief story regarding my dealings with Mercury. I own a 2008 170 Montauk with a 90HP EFI. This past Oct after owning the boat for one year, I started experiencing an intermittent non starting condition in which the motor would not turn over. I have had to date the start solnoid, ingition switch, and the complete starter assembly replaced. The first two go arounds with the ignition switch and start solnoid, the technician would not diagnose the problem and just consulted with Mercury and was told what to replace by Mercury. After this second failed attempt to correct the problem the selling dealer decided to order a complete starter assembly. To date I have had a chance to run the boat several times w/o any problems and hope this will correct the problem. The thing that was frustrating to me is that I am not even a mechanic, but I do have a Mercury shop manual and there is a very detailed easy to follow trouble shooting guide that I had a chance to go through with the mechanic that replaced the starter motor. Low and behold the test indicated that if the voltage readings are w/i a specific range that the starter is bad and this was the case. After all was said and done he aggreed with me that this was problem. I am not sure if the selling dealer who has always provided outstanding customer ever was paid for replacing the starter w/o Mercury's permission, but I gave Mercury a piece of my mind on the customer satifation survey.

I am now a happy camper and am regaining confidence in my engine. I think I will too purchase tow insurance as a back up.

Good luck.

posted 04-30-2009 03:35 PM ET (US)         

I understand your view point in the scenario you note but as in Jim's example, there's many more.

This is all very well if your engine is under warranty, you can have lower skilled mechanics who just swap parts out under Merc's authority.

I don't think we would be so happy if we were footing the bill with several parts replace and no cure or worse still the fault reoccurring later at sea after spending 100's.

Regards
Steve

posted 04-30-2009 03:51 PM ET (US)            

Either your Mercury Verado Outboard left you stranded, or your actions in relation to erractic engine behavior on previous outings did.

I mean, let's be straight. The Montauk itself performed exactly as expected, didn't it?

....or has Mercury learned the great skill of politicians and figured out how to blame someone else for their own failures?

Just askin......

posted 04-30-2009 04:48 PM ET (US)            

Prior to Verado, outboard motors were not ever considered "integrated propulsion systems" on a boat. It was a bolt-on accessory. In fact, one of the big reasons that outboards were marketed in saltwater fishing markets was the ease of engine replacement once it wore out. Just buy a new one and bolt it on.

So the boat did not strand you - the motor did. Brunswick just figured out a way to divert attention/blame from their bolt-on engine from their Mercury division. Now, we have a problem with a product manufactured by Mercury, which is a separate company from Boston Whaler, and yet, Boston Whaler is being blamed for leaving a owner stranded.

I am not accusing Brunswick of doing this intentionally, but rather pointing out an unintended consequence to their marketing practices which reflects poorly on certain divisions when a different division is the cause of the problem.

That is very interesting.

On the other front, I will say that I do find it fascinating that you are upset for me pointing out the following: You operated this vessel and experienced an engine failure. Rather than determine the cause of this failure, and without making alternative arrangements in case you experienced the failure again, you took the same boat/motor combination away from the relative safety of a marina. The engine failed a second time, this time, several miles from the relative safety of a marina, which required a towing service to get you home. Instead of utilizing the towing service that was provided at the time of sale, you paid additional funds out of your pocket for a third-party tow.

I'm not criticizing you on any of this - it is very possible that I may have made the same errors if in the same situation. But I submit that they are errors that you made. The boat gets blamed again - for errors you made in the operation of a boat with engine problems. The engine problems and your operational/decision making errors are not the fault at all of Boston Whaler as a boat-building company.

...and yet, the Boston Whaler Montauk is blamed.

Fascinating.

Again - not a rip on you at all. We all make mistakes and I will be the last one to "judge" you for expecting that a brand new engine should operate normally, and even for thinking that an earlier engine fault could have been a "fluke" and wouldn't occur again. Been there in that mindset. It still doesn't mean that it wasn't a mistake or an error in operational judgment.

I'm glad that Mercury has addressed the problem through your dealer. It is Mercury that is taking ownership of this problem with one of their engines, which illustrates my point that it was a problem with the engine, not the boat manufactured by Boston Whaler.

posted 04-30-2009 04:58 PM ET (US)            

I'm just curious if Boston Whaler should shoulder the blame for only items bolted/directly attached to the hull, or items that were bundled into the sale of the hull as a "package"?

posted 04-30-2009 08:22 PM ET (US)         

""Let me share an example from the world of ""IT.""

posted 04-30-2009 09:24 PM ET (US)            

Several years ago I repowered my old Montauk with a new engine. My premise was that I was tired of the 18 year old motor and it's quirks and wanted a reliable motor for the fall fishing season. I repowered over Labor Day weekend in 2004 and paid full price for the motor and installation. At almost exactly 10 hours into the life of the new motor it developed a knock, I called the dealer and let him listen over the phone, and he told me to bring it in. Not having towing, I tried to make it on my own power, failed, and called friends to drag me the remaining 10 miles. A week later I had a fresh powerhead. 10 hours after that the replacement powerhead also failed. So I went out and secured a towing package, moved the rig out where they were obligated to tow me (purchasing the towing package was less expensive than buying off my buddies), and went back to the dealer. Once again, a week later I was back in business. The dealer negotiated a little something with the motor's manufacturer to stifle my bellyaching (a full case of oil which lasted me almost two seasons).

Sometimes things happen. I bought a lemon, but everyone involved worked hard to correct the problems. That is what a warranty is all about. I probably have close to 1000 hours on that motor now (it's 4.5 years old) and yes I have had other issues with it they have all been corrected. True, I never had towing insurance until I bought my new motor that was supposed to be more reliable than my old beater but in the long run I still prefer the new motor over the old.

Good luck,

posted 05-01-2009 09:08 AM ET (US)         

You sent your watch back to the factory, they removed the guts, dropped in new guts and sent you back your shell, with new workings. The cost to repair said broken internals was double, triple, quadruple, etc. what the cost was to simply give you a new internal works.

Now with Mercury, it may not be financially prudent to throw away the old "guts", but surely more accurate to assess, diagnose and repair on their bench, than with someone turning wrenches not oscilloscopes.

All of this aside, I think jimh nailed it with this:

quote:

---

This is much like the remedy given to hockeycrew by having the engine control unit replaced. I suspect that the dealer really did not have any evidence or testing that pointed directly to the ECU as the problem; they just replaced it to see if that would fix the problem.

---

posted 05-02-2009 01:28 AM ET (US)         

I presume they are only available from Mercury due to identification.

My guess is a bit more than a few Timex innards or a Mother Board of an average PC.

posted 05-02-2009 06:48 AM ET (US)         

I towed someone in last week with a nice new Yam 200 on the back. It can happen to us all.

We don't have any tow you in type service here and although the coast guard and customs is very strict they are also very helpful. I've often seen them towing in boats.

If I did live in the US I would still have an axilary in addition to tow insurance.

posted 05-02-2009 09:35 AM ET (US)            

The PCM 555 controller is mention in

http://www.propellermagazine.co.nz/feature.php?feaid=39

posted 05-02-2009 02:35 PM ET (US)            

Plus, I don't beleive in one motor. Having twins or a kicker is always safer out on the water.

posted 05-02-2009 05:04 PM ET (US)         

Read the link, thanks

They imply (in 2005) 200hp, 225hp, 250hp and 275hp are only different by the PCM 555 controller software and the price diffrence is 7500NZ or more than the difference between the engines at least, to stop self mods.

Good job hockeycrew is in warranty

I think I read elsewhere the Evinrude do an exchange EMM service in addition to other software updates done by dealers. This is because the EMM records logged hours similar to car speedo miles, which is an offence to tamper or change.

posted 05-03-2009 01:34 PM ET (US)            

"Jim, read the links."

posted 05-03-2009 01:44 PM ET (US)            

>>In a car the engine is integral to the car and not bolted onto the rear deck, so it seems reasonable to not refer to it as a separate entity. In the case of the Boston Whaler 190 MONTAUK, the Verado is bolted on the transom, and I think it is entirely reasonable to refer to the Verado as a separate entity, not an integral part of the assembly we call a 190 MONTAUK.<<

posted 05-03-2009 07:57 PM ET (US)            

In 10 years, when the first 190 Montauks with VERADO power are beginning to be repowered by their owners, does the boat cease to be a 190 Montauk if an owner decides to utilize a HONDA powerplant for the repower? What about a YAMAHA? These are populare repower options.

18' Outrages were sold NEW with Yamaha, OMC and Mercury power? Is only one configuration a "true" 18' Outrage and the rest posers?

Seriously folks, are we really going to tie the outboard to the identity of the hull?

posted 05-04-2009 02:41 PM ET (US)         

quote:

---

Steve--What links?

---

To the propeller magazine article :)

Sorry for the confusion, as you noted some interesting information

S C Joe

quote:

---

Have you seen a newer 190 Montauk with any other engine than a Verado?

---

Yes, remember export models are not tied to Merc power. The one currently in my dealers showroom is blank awaiting a nice ETEC to be fitted as that’s the dealers franchise. The others he has sold had ETEC's fitted, and my 210.

Regards
Steve

posted 05-05-2009 08:14 AM ET (US)            

The price of the PCM 555 hardware is probably in the range of $1,000 to $2,500, I would estimate. I suspect that the OEM cost to Mercury is far less, and that is why they are willing to replace the entire PCM 555 controller as the first step in solving this problem of their under-warranty 135-HP Verado motor failing and stranding the boater with a $500 tow.

I hope we hear more from hockeycrew about the outcome of this repair.

posted 05-05-2009 11:52 AM ET (US)         

Fingers crossed all is resolved

Jim

Not sure where the confusion is now :) maybe both of us.

I agree with you on a like for like replacement it's probably in the range you note, outside of warranty.

The article you linked implies if you tried to buy another PCM 555 for the sole purpose of getting more HP from eg a 200 to 225 then Merc have made this cost prohibitive.

I think the same applies to ETEC's EMM.

However, on some defects you may have a chance of self repair by re-flashing the ROM on the ETEC's and Evinrude’s exchange service may be cheaper by what I have read.

posted 05-05-2009 05:15 PM ET (US)            

Conditions warrant bringing existing customers "into the fold" and keeping them happy. I'm glad that Mercury stood by you in this, and your dealer also.

It's a good thing that Boston Whaler wasn't involved, because last time I checked, they didn't have much to do with the design, development and manufacture of Mercury Outboards (unlike automakers, who rule with an iron fist over what accessory makers do to become a supplier for their products).

just sayin.

:)

posted 05-08-2009 04:39 PM ET (US)            

Of course, you know that I disagree with the principle. That was my point. Brunswick has forced this unfortunate reality on an owned company, Boston Whaler. By forcing this situation, they have managed to damage the reputation for two of their companies instead of one.

For what?

To make more money in the 90's and 2000's. The chickens are coming home to roost. Independent companies live and die by what they do, but at least they have control over their destiny.

Here, we see Boston Whaler's reputation getting tarnished by a product that they did not have any control over, and had no say in development, design or the placement of them on the transoms of their boats.

That's a bad trade, in my humble, perception-minded opinion.

Where I Boston Whaler management, I would work hard to distinguish my products, over which I controlled quality, manufacturing and pricing, from the products over which I did not have control.

Accessories would be described by who makes them - Mills Canvas or Taylor Made Canvas, or whatever - unless I had a hand in design/development (i.e. white-labeled manufacture)

So, naturally, my Boston Whaler 18' Outrage is and of itself, a singularity. It is equipped with twin E-TEC engines. Before the E-TEC motors, my 18' Outrage was equipped with a 150 Mercury Black Max motor. Changing motors did not change the type of boat I own/operate.

Likewise, if I bought a 190 Montauk with the requisite Mercury motor, when and if I ever replaced the motor with any other motor, the boat would not cease to be a Boston Whaler 190 Montauk, would it? That is a scary thought for the brand image and brand equity of the name "Boston Whaler." It is also not very strategic in the long-term for Brunswick....but then again, I've argued for a while that Brunswick as a company is more interested in cashing in on the equity in the Boston Whaler Brand than extending the "legend" that gave it that equity.

*Sigh*

I'm afraid that I'm hedging around the real topic and starting to peel back the scab on some of the factors that have played a part in the current economic situation we find ourselves in. When the Executive Suites start paying attention - across industries and on a broad basis - things will change in terms of customer loyalty and consumer sentiment.

Until then, someone else at some other boat company will cash in on the original value proposition that was Boston Whaler and is now some other brand. It is the life cycle of many companies.

Cheers,

posted 05-08-2009 05:31 PM ET (US)            

What would happen to Mercury sales on Boston Whaler transoms if the company said something like:

"We offer our Whalers standard with quality Mercury motors. The engineers at Whaler and Mercury worked together to provide packages that deliver value, quality and performance to enhance your boating experience. Of course, not everyone agrees - so if you want something different - just say so! Whaler is dedicated to your complete satisfaction."

I would bet you the $100 bill in my pocket that the sales of Mercury would not decline by more than 20 percent.

But, the satisfaction of your customers is less tangible. My bet is also that Boston Whaler just removed all barriers for Yamaha, Honda, Evinrude and Suzuki enthusiasts.

Here's where the big difference is seen: People who don't care will buy a boat with a Mercury and be happy. People who care but not enough to make it change their decision will have a Mercury and be happy. People who, for whatever reason avoid Mercury like L H G avoids Fourdfish will buy a Boston Whaler and put their favorite outboard on the boat and be very happy...but they are fanatics. They are brand emissaries. They spread the gospel. They are the worker bees who build - BUILD brand equity. These are the legend builders - the fanatics who go down swinging in favor of their brand.

Do you really want to drive these people away from your BOAT brand to sell a few more motors? The whole company is set up to sell motors. They have boat companies for one really good reason: to sell motors! Sell more Whalers, spread the legend, sell MORE Whalers with the majority powered by MERCURY motors, spread the legend some more.

No - it doesn't deliver results in 3,6,9 or 12 months like Wall Street demands - but it delivers results over DECADES.

The work that went into building the Whaler Legend in the 1980's is fueling the marketing and consumer sentiment for today's hulls.

This is not complex - it's just not easy to convince a shareholder who demands results this year. Well, perhaps you're answering to the wrong people. Delivering long-term results ultimately will satisfy your shareholders the most.

posted 05-08-2009 07:27 PM ET (US)         

A few other things to consider, in long term scenarios.

Unlike cars boat owners don’t tend to replace them every 3-4 years.

A boat may easily outlive its propulsion several times over.

It’s likely in today’s streamlining of companies that the Verado may end up as Merc’s only engine option.

1000’s of older BW owners who don’t have the magical increase in transom capacity of the last few years.

BW brand image and price is probably not a first time boat buyer’s choice.

This leaves us to presume that loyal repeat BW customers are likely to be a long haul game.

Therefore Merc’s repeat business based on a multitude of permutations available to owners once the initial power unit life has expired is not in Merc’s favour when compared to the automotive industry.

Brunswick has to force new sales of Merc’s to increase its chance of repeat business simple by numbers, as it has to compete with all the other engine brands during the life cycle of a BW.

It’s probably this sales profile that conflicts with BW and limits our choice, unlike independent boat builders.