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ContinuousWave: Post-Classic Whalers
210 CONQUEST v. 21 CONQUEST
|Author||Topic: 210 CONQUEST v. 21 CONQUEST|
posted 07-31-2010 08:38 PM ET (US)
In discussing possible repowering of my 1999 21' Conquest (as it is referred to in Whaler literature from that era), a friend mentioned that he had an acquaintance who owned a Conquest 210 that could attain [more than] 30-knots using a single Honda 150-HP outboard. Because I believe Honda first came out with their 150-HP outboard c.2005, and this boat reportedly was bought new with the engine installed, it would seem the Conquest 210 is a model of that same time frame? I do know that Whaler stopped making the 21' Conquest circa 2001, then subsequently came out with a 205 Eastport, later renamed the 205 Conquest, which now is also no longer made, but I am unfamiliar with a Conquest 210.
If any of the expert Whaler historians here is knowledgeable of a Conquest 210, please enlighten me. I am particularly interested in the dry hull weight of a Conquest 210 because, if it is comparable to the 2,400-lbs dry hull weight of my 21' Conquest, then the acquaintance's Conquest 210 will serve as a relevant indicator of the performance I might expect should I re-power with a Honda 150-HP, like he has.
Thanks for any information, aloha.
posted 08-01-2010 09:16 AM ET (US)
I have the 1999 21 Conquest (older model) with a hard top and it barely does 30 MPH (measured by GPS) when fully loaded using a 200HP Optimax. I can't imagine that a 150HP Honda can produce those numbers.
posted 08-01-2010 11:29 AM ET (US)
Sounds more like a Ventura 210 to me with minimum spec HP
posted 08-01-2010 11:30 AM ET (US)
I also own a 1999 Conquest 21 with 200 HP Optimax.
Two comments in reply.
There was a well known here typo in Whaler literature for this model. I actually weighs closer to 3500 lbs dry weight. So, I definitely would not power this model with anything less than 200 HP. I have gotten up to 36-38 MPH at 5500 rpms with the motor trimmed up on plane, and 1/4 tank of fuel. Max HP allowed was 250 HP. A good four stroke to consider is the Verado 225 HP, as it uses 87 octane. The dual console Ventura 210 model up until last year in Whaler catalogs came with a 225 Verado.
Some of the dealer literature that came in my Whaler pouch referred to the boat as a "Conquest 210", but this seemed an error by the dealership. Whaler always documented the boat as a Conquest 21. Whaler kept alternating between 2 digit and 3 digit model names in the nineties, so I am not surprised by the confusion.
Bottom line: I would not recommend the Honda 150 HP as a repower option. Honda 225 HP something I considered, but now leaning toward the new Yamaha V-6 four stroke 225HP. I was with a Coast Guard senior chief yesterday at the National Boy Scout Jamboree where my son was earning some merit badges. I specifically asked him about his USCG experience with the Honda's and why they seemed to switch to other power recently on their small craft. He stated they experienced a number of lower unit failures with the Hondas. First negative feedback I have heard from USCG on the Hondas.
posted 08-02-2010 04:10 PM ET (US)
I love the Honda 225hp on my 1998 21' Conquest!. I can make 40mph.
posted 08-02-2010 04:54 PM ET (US)
Minimum HP for Ventura 210 was 135 and 250 max according to 2009 owners manual for a dry weight with no engine of 3300lbs
Minimum HP for Conquest 205 was 135 and 200 max according to 2008 owners manual for a dry weight with no engine of 2800lbs
posted 08-03-2010 08:17 AM ET (US)
Thanks, fellow Whaler enthusiasts, for the information you've provided.
Given the lack of any specific information about a Conquest 210, there presumably was no such model? I will ask my friend to double check to see what model his acquaintance's Whaler truly is.
Regarding the dry weight of a 21' Conquest (the decals on the boat do say "Conquest Twenty-one"), the several Whaler brochures and catalogs that I have from the late '90's all list it as 2400 lbs. I was unaware of there being any later acknowledgement by Whaler of those being typo's. Given the short distances we trailer here on island, I am guilty of never having weighed the boat/trailer, simply accepting at face value the printed 2400 lbs. The boat/motor and trailer have always towed easily, further rendering the actual hull weight a non-concern.
With respect to the motor HP - when I bought the boat in 1999, I wanted a 4-stroke for its reliability since the boat is configured for just a single motor. (Remember, those were the days of the unreliable/developmental Ficht and orbital 2-strokes.) Honda had a reputation for that reliability but the largest motor they had was their 130-HP model and, yes, the 21' Conquest is rated for a maximum of 250-HP and a minimum of 135-HP, as SJUAE has written. Given the almost constant roughness of our waters precluding operation at anything near full throttle or even on plane, I opted to go with the Honda 130-HP motor.
I've been pleasantly satisfied with that 130-HP motor. It easily planes the 21' Conquest - whatever the boat's actual weight - and can attain 25 knots (28 MPH) by GPS when the water is flat enough to allow that (perhaps Honda underrates their motors?). tesija - Your two MPH more 30 MPH with a 70-HP more 200-HP Optimax is likely because your 21' Conquest is heavier, e.g. I do not have the hard top.
And that Honda 130-HP motor has taken me out and, more importantly, brought me home [u]every single time for over 10 years now[/u] (I can count on one hand the number of times we've been on plane for more that a few minutes in those 10 years.) So, hopefully you all can understand why I'm interested in just a slight increase in HP for the possible upgrade.
It's really not about the HP vis-a-vis top speed, but more about the HP vis-a-vis RPM at trolling speed and the resulting relationship to motor longevity for me. If a 150-HP will let me troll at 2000 RPM instead of 3000 RPM with a 130-HP, then that 150-HP would not be working as hard and should last longer, not to mention give better fuel economy.
In any case, a 150-HP Honda should do better than the 130-HP I now have, and actually weighs about 10 lbs less. A 200-HP Honda would weigh about 100 lbs more! So weight increase is also a factor in my decision. Mambo Minnow - Any report of lower unit failure on the 150-HP Honda motor? nemored - How does your stern sit with the Honda 225's 600 lb weight? Are the deck drains still above the waterline? Just curious; I don't need to and 99% of the time won't be able to go 40 MPH (35 knots) without losing some dental fillings.
Again, thanks all, for the information and interesting discussion on this thread. Aloha!
posted 08-03-2010 10:26 PM ET (US)
Hawaiian, best of luck. I did not have a whaler when I was stationed at Pearl. I often wondered about powerboating there on open ocean. We had a marina at Iroquois Pt. In Ewa Beach but it seemed all sail boats. Most of the whalers were in Kaneohe Bay. Believe that is where forum member Perry operates. Best of luck, I would like to see Honda update their larger motors now that they revamped 40-90HP.
posted 08-04-2010 11:24 PM ET (US)
The scuppers sit fine about 3/4 above the water line. The extra hp's pickup does help going across these rough Oregon river bars.
posted 08-05-2010 11:17 AM ET (US)
Hawaiianwhaler, regarding the rumors of lower unit failures on 225 HP Hondas in service with the USCG, I remember a couple of years ago I was considering a repower and checked in to this.
What I learned was that these failures were attributed to the duty cycle imposed by the nature of the mission of the USCG small boats.
The story was that they are commonly run "hot", or, at or near full throttle for some time to a scene, then shifted urgently into reverse upon arrival. Not a second to waste, you know. The opinion was that this type of operation was shortening the life of some of their Honda 225 lower units.
It doesn't sound like you'll be treating your motor like that.
posted 08-05-2010 01:29 PM ET (US)
USGC should not be allowed to run Japanese made engines...period. We petitioned it years ago in NJ and they bought new Evinrudes.
posted 08-05-2010 02:26 PM ET (US)
The source of the statement I made above was a Honda dealer who serviced the Hondas on USCG boats and he was aware of the coming changeover to Etecs and Verados.
About the Verados, he wondered if the electronic shift controls might reduce the stress on the lower unit gearing during high-adrenalin shifting by having a programmed small delay before engaging reverse.
posted 08-05-2010 02:36 PM ET (US)
The coast guard should run the engine that has the best performance for the money regardless of where its built. If it weren't for japanese engines the Verado wouldn't exist. Nothing like a little competition to get a better product. All our M1 tanks sport german cannons. THe Hemmit truck is also of german design. Many of the electronic systems on our fighter jets are BAE (UK), etc the Job of the Defense dept (and the dept of commerce (CG) is to get the best performing, most reliable kit for the money. Everyone complains about the GM bailout, but then complains when the government buys stuff from elswhere, it seems quite illogical to me.
posted 08-05-2010 02:47 PM ET (US)
No...the rules for the USCG are that they have to exhaust all domestic manufacturers FIRST before going abroad. The CG helicopters are made in France but we do not make something compatible here. I do not think Honda makes an outboard that we do not offer stateside. Somebody here making a cannon specific to our M1 tanks might not be competitive enough to compete with a German company for the limited numbers they would sell. Also I am not saying that the HumVee might have a Bosch fuel injection pump in it...but the truck is made in the US. All of the Gov. boats around here have Mercury or BRP on the back and the boats are US made as well.
posted 08-05-2010 02:51 PM ET (US)
Ps...I never complained about the GM bailout except for the fact that I own GM stock. The fact that they did what they did has basically made it worthless. I think that if they left the stock alone it might have actually been profitable by now, not quite like Ford but maybe a couple-3 dollars which I was banking on when I bought it.
posted 08-05-2010 02:53 PM ET (US)
Then again Jeep was owned by Mercedes and now Fiat and Honda, Toyota, etc are made in the US while GM is in Mexico, etc....where does it end...or begin on what is a US company?
posted 08-06-2010 07:32 AM ET (US)
nemored and boatdryver - Thank you for the additional information. While it's good to know the 21' Conquest will keep its scuppers above the waterline, even with a 600 lb outboard mounted on its transom, when the time comes, I'm leaning toward the lighter 150-HP. No river bars to run here so the added pickup, while nice, is not necessary ;). And it's good to know that the reported Honda lower unit issues won't be a concern for me, especially since I have a great relationship with a certified Honda outboard technician who makes house calls!
Mambo - Hope your tour at Pearl was enjoyable; thanks for your service to our country. You didn't miss much in the way of straight "powerboating" out here. The usually rough seas dissuade most pleasure cruising, with nearly everyone offshore being fishing, not cruising. Kaneohe Bay is the only sizeable area of Oahu water that is nearly always calm enough to just pleasure cruise (but it's not large enough that you can cruise very far!). Nearshore waters on the lee side of Oahu also are often calm but, being deep, they can kick up quickly, unlike Kaneohe Bay which is shallow (~40 feet) and protected by an outer reef.
Good informative discussion on Coast Guard motors. Last time I had occasion to see the local Defender(?) Class boats they sported twin 225-HP Honda outboards aft and a single M-60 forward. Seems that Class is specified to have twin 225-HP Hondas (see http://www.uscg.mil/datasheet/25rbs.asp .
posted 08-06-2010 03:05 PM ET (US)
Tohsgib: You hit it on the nail. There aren't many companies that have any nationality anymore. Mercury and Harley Davison are constantly whacking the state government (WI) for more bailouts (AKA incentives) while they cut hours, wages and benefits. When they are making obscene profits it all goes to the "investors" and very little is invested in the company, of course none of it is "invested" on the employees since sqeezing them to the border of what is legal is the way to "maximize" that profit margin. I love how our companies are strictly capitalistic on how they handle their employees, but will suck up state and federal money every chance they can (welfare for the rich at the tune of billions) But everytime that the governmet wants to spread the lard the other way the richies cry foul! God forbid they couldn't pay their yatch so their former employees can get some unemployment......
posted 08-07-2010 10:02 AM ET (US)
Hawaiian, thanks for the kind words. I did have a "boat" - a 563 foot destroyer, so I did get to cruise the local waters. I loved the Big Island and the Lahaina side of Maui. I most recently was out in Guam and did get to do some whalering there on a 320 Outrage. The fishing for Ono was much better there than my Hawaiian experience. Kind of like a low budget Hawaii - same great weather and watersports, but cheaper cost of living.
I just read in August edition of Trailer Boats, that even though Honda has the same basic 225P model since 2002, they have incrementally improved this model without much fanfare. Latest upgrade was incorporating BLAST. I have always held the Hondas in high regard, so this latest news might make me reconsider this as a four stroke repower option for my Conquest someday. Pleased to hear more elaboration on possible USCG usage habits being root cause of lower unit problems mentioned to me last week.
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