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Author Topic:   295 Conquest Re-power with Twin Yamaha 4.2-liter Offshore Motors
JTC posted 12-11-2010 02:15 PM ET (US)   Profile for JTC   Send Email to JTC  
My original 1999 Optimax 225's are starting to get unreliable so I'm planning to repower [my Boston Whaler 295 CONQUEST] with a pair of Yamaha 4.2-liter F250 Offshore motors. [Has] anyone any experience with these motors? They've only been out a year or so, but the specifications are pretty impressive: only 562-lbs v. 497-lbs for the 3-liter Optimax, high torque, high fuel efficiency.
L H G posted 12-11-2010 07:14 PM ET (US)     Profile for L H G    
That boat can easily handle the weight of the new Yamahas. One of my neighbors in FL has one re-powered with 250HP Verados.
elenakagan posted 12-11-2010 07:17 PM ET (US)     Profile for elenakagan  Send Email to elenakagan     
You will need all new rigging. Seems like it would be a nice match as long as the weight can be handled by the boat. I would guesstimate a $50,000 investment. If you [are] prepared to dump that amount into that hull, go for it, or possibly consider the new Optimax motors. The F250 motors are very reliable, and I have never heard any negative comments.
Mambo Minnow posted 12-12-2010 08:49 AM ET (US)     Profile for Mambo Minnow  Send Email to Mambo Minnow     
If you do repower, please share experience online. Eventually I too will need to replace a 1999 Optimax 200 on a Conquest. I am hearing conflicting reports on whether new digital throttle and shift is mandatory.
Thanks and good luck!
handn posted 12-12-2010 10:57 AM ET (US)     Profile for handn  Send Email to handn     
There have been threads both on this forum and on hull truth about difficulty in getting 28/295 Conquests up on plane with full loads (full fuel, 8 or nine people) with the Yamaha 4-stroke repower.
The 28/295 have a notched hull and were designed for the lighter 2-stroke motors. The Yamahas are great motors but heavier than the Optis and the Verados heavier still.
If I were facing the question of repower for the 28/295, I would go with the Optimaxes while they are still making them. They are cheaper and lighter and the new ones have shed most of the reliability issues that plagued the older ones.
JTC posted 12-13-2010 09:17 AM ET (US)     Profile for JTC  Send Email to JTC     
Thanks for the responses. I read extensively about some of the planing [concerns] with this hull and the older F250's, but the new 4.2-liter Offshore series weighs 40-lbs [less] than the OptiMax, not including oil in either case, and purportedly has a lot more torque than the older 3.4-liter F240 due to the bigger bore.

I have ruled out staying with the Optimax because of the noise (though I hear that the new ones are quieter than the original) and because I'm fed up with filling the oil tanks! My annoyance with the 2-stroke oil was probably made worse by the fact that my OptiMax motors seem to burn oil at a 30:1 ratio instead of a 50:1 ratio, so I have to fill the oil tanks twice for every gas fueling. Whoever decided to put those oil fillers on the transom and not include a oil level gauge on these boats was an idiot! Or at least he never tried refilling the oil at sea. But I digress.

I'll definitely post my experiences here. Right now I'm planning to stay with my Revolution4 17-pitch propellers, unless they don't perform well, so I'll post my experiences with that as well. I'm pretty excited about getting digital controls and the new electronic engine displays. I had a chance to run my friend's Grady-White boat with F350's and I was extremely impressed with the whole system.

Oh - one more thing. Right now I have the original Seastar hydraulic steering with a single ram and a tie-bar, and I also have a Raymarine ST6100 autopilot unit. My dealer mentioned, without a lot of detail, that I might wish to consider going to a dual ram system - wasn't sure what the [advantages or disadvantages were]. My primary consideration in the re-power is offshore reliability - I run my boat as much as 30 miles offshore.

L H G posted 12-13-2010 12:56 PM ET (US)     Profile for L H G    
If you're talking about replacing all systems, including steering, instrumentation and DTS controls, you might as well go up to the real thing, Verados.
Peter posted 12-13-2010 03:53 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Larry that's a brilliant idea -- replace a pair of 500 lb outboards with a pair of 650 lb outboards on a boat that was designed for a pair of 500 lb outboards.
jimh posted 12-13-2010 08:17 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I would not hold out too much hope for improved noise, vibration, and harshness (NVH) for the "new" OptiMax, otherwise known as The OptiMax Next Generation (OTNG) or the GLOBE OptiMax, but now just called "OptiMax" by Mercury. Mercury only claimed that the noise reduction obtained in the OptiMax The Next Generation motors was "up to 6-dB." A change in sound pressure level of 6-dB is noticeable, but it is not a dramatic change. You have to have about 10-dB of change before it becomes quite significant. And, of course, we are told only "up to 6-dB," which means most of the time it is NOT a 6-dB improvement. No, if NVH is a goal, you are right to avoid the OptiMax The Next Generation motors. They are no where close to the next generation of outboard motors in terms of reduced noise, vibration, and harness.
elenakagan posted 12-14-2010 05:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for elenakagan  Send Email to elenakagan     
I have been a Yamaha fan since the time of the Optipoop, Yes, they are very loud, like having a old sears lawnmower on your transom. I would also say that my HPDI's are loud also, compared to the 300 Verado's I test drove. I went with Verado on my new ride because the cost differential is at least 5-6k less than the Yams and the Verado's are proven. So if you can stand the little extra weight you should consider the Vrats.

With the Vrats, power steering is standard, but if you go with the Yams your dealer can install the Verado steering.

JTC posted 12-18-2010 05:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for JTC  Send Email to JTC     

re: Verados, my dealer told me that they weren't recommended for my hull, presumably because of their weight. They tip the scales at 635 lbs, which is about 270 extra pounds on the transom compared to my existing motors. It seems like the other 4-stroke options are also pretty heavy: Suzuki DF250 (580 lbs), Yamaha 3.3L F250 (600 lbs), Honda 225HP (600 lbs).

My main concern at this point (besides the expense!) is that these are fairly new motors, so I'd love to hear if anyone in whaler world has actually thrown one or two on their transom and has a first hand report.

Incidentally, my second post above contains an error. I'd meant to say that the 4.2L F250 Offshores weight 40lbs less than the original 3.3L F250 (now called their "High Power" 4-stroke)

Ridge Runner posted 12-20-2010 04:30 PM ET (US)     Profile for Ridge Runner  Send Email to Ridge Runner     
I had a 2002 295. I was very close to re-powering but decided to sell it. If it were my choice, no question twin E-Tec 300-HP engine. It adds about 50-lbs over the OptiMax 225's but you pick-up 150-HP. The boat is rated for 600-HP. I would think this would really make the boat perform. Looking at the cost difference [maybe] $2,000 across the pair.
L H G posted 12-20-2010 04:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for L H G    
It seems inconceivable to me that a big, bow heavy 28' Whaler Conquest with 10' beam can't handle twin Verados. The older, smaller and lighter 27' Commercial boats are powered with Verados all the time. I have seen many of them. Both hulls are rated for 600HP. I also find it strange that a Boston Whaler/Mercury dealership would recommend Yamahas over Verados and pass up a re-power sale like that.

As I said, I have a neighbor with twin Verados on a 280 Conquest, repowered from 225 Opti's. The boat carries them easily. The only reason these early Conquests went out with Opti's was because neither the Mercury/Yamaha V-6 or the Verados were yet on the market.

Peter posted 12-20-2010 06:14 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
The 295 Conquest has a stepped transom. That is, it does not carry the full hull form all the way to the transom. So when underway, the 295 Conquest runs like it has a bracket. Instead of having 1000 lbs cantilevered on the bracket underway, with the Verados you've got 1400 lbs cantilevered on the bracket. Even with the size of the 295, that extra cantilevered 400 lbs will change the way the boat rides.

Compare/contrast the 295 hull to the 305 hull which replaced it. The 305 has a full hull all the way to the transom to support the weight of the Verados. If the weight of Verados on a stepped transom was not a problem, why didn't Whaler continue to use that on the 305 Conquest?

L H G posted 12-20-2010 06:32 PM ET (US)     Profile for L H G    
Even the 9' beam 250 Outrage, a much smaller boat, can be ordered factory rigged with twin L-6 225 Verados.
Peter posted 12-20-2010 06:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
If you KNOW that you might have 1400 lbs on the transom, you can design and engineer for it just like Whaler did for the old Conquest 23 was designed for 800 lbs of twin outboards but if ordered with the single engine option it came with about 400 lbs of lead weight bolted to the transom.

Where would be a good place to bolt in 400 lbs of lead in the 295 Conquest?

elenakagan posted 12-20-2010 07:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for elenakagan  Send Email to elenakagan     
The same place whaler bolted 200lbs. of lead in my 255 Conquest. Aft, below aft of fishboxes about 1 ft. under gunnels. Plastic housing covers it.
L H G posted 12-20-2010 07:52 PM ET (US)     Profile for L H G    
So, if Conquests tend to be bow heavy, as the need for lead indicates, it seems that an extra 100# per engine, which is the difference in weight between a DFI 2-stroke and a Verado (550# vs 650#), makes sense.
Peter posted 12-20-2010 08:11 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Your Honor -- I believe your Conquest does not have Mercury outboards. How did you pull that off? Do the Supremes get a special exception to Whaler law? Or did you order a 255 with a single Merc and then ditch the Merc for Yamahas?
JTC posted 01-06-2011 08:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for JTC  Send Email to JTC     

Just officially pulled the trigger on the repower with the new Yamaha Offshores. Hope I don't end up regretting it!

Now the fun part: These motors support "Command Link +" which allows a single 5" color LCD display to monitor both engines. So I have to redesign the instrument panel as the single display will replace two big analog tachometers and two temperature gauges. I probably no longer need the old analog voltage gauges and even the old fuel gauge, though I may choose to leave those for redundancy if I can.

Still trying to find out if I can get original BW blank instrument panels or if I have to have something custom fabricated.

fno posted 01-07-2011 11:19 AM ET (US)     Profile for fno  Send Email to fno     
I doubt you can get the blank panel. When I bought my 210 Outrage it had a 175 Optimax on it and I asked the dealer to put a 225 Yamamerc instead. The Opti had Smartcraft gauges (two) and the new engine only needed a tachometer. The dealer was going to put a speedometer in the second hole to fill it and not replace the panel. I told him to replace the panel for the $$ I was paying. He did it, but complained about having to buy a whole panel with gauges as that is how Whaler gets them from the vendor. He also wanted to get just the panel and use some of the gauges from the old to keep the cost down. No such luck for him...
JTC posted 01-09-2011 12:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for JTC  Send Email to JTC     
fno: you called it. I can get a 1/2 blank panel with all the circuit breakers and switch cutouts in it, but no Optimax gauges but it's pretty pricey ($750) though it would have all new breakers.

My current thought is to see if I can get a black anodized aluminum plate fabricated to cover the holes where the big 4" tachometers are located and then mount the new electronic display on the aluminum plate. And I'll just leave any other gauges that aren't being used in place...

JTC posted 01-24-2011 08:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for JTC  Send Email to JTC     
Latest update: New F250 Offshores have arrived at the shop, but the new blank upper panel has not. I decided to leave the lower panel with the old analog gauges exactly "as is." It wasn't worth $750 + labor to replace it, and my technician pointed out that the lower panel was not the best place to put the new Yamaha Command Link Plus display because I would want to be able to easily manipulate the controls without the wheel getting in the way. If it really bugs me I can always do something about it next season (or if I ever have anything that needs to go there), but I'm pretty sure I'll just leave the lower panel alone.

Here's a mockup of how the new instrumentation will look http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l482/28Conquest/panel.jpg
It's a little tight, but not bad.

I'm getting an "official" BW upper panel so it should look a little snazzier than the one I have now which was a replacement.

They should be doing the rigging in a couple of weeks... can't wait for spring to try it all out!

onlyawhaler posted 01-26-2011 02:44 PM ET (US)     Profile for onlyawhaler  Send Email to onlyawhaler     
I haven't been this interested in a new engine like these in years. Weight of a two stroke, launch and getting on plane like a two stroke and no oil injector tank.

I have alot of respect for Yamaha products and these are unique. When Yamaha winds up their R & D and puts out something new its always noteworthy

Congratulations, hope it goes well and keep us informed.

Here is a video of a twin installation of these two 4.2 engines (300hp)on a Grady.

Interesting and worth watching

Good luck

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eQGD5rCF6g

Sterling
Onlyawhaler

kglinz posted 01-28-2011 01:14 PM ET (US)     Profile for kglinz  Send Email to kglinz     
JTC

If I may ask, why did you go with 250s instead of F300s.

Kemp Lindsey

JTC posted 01-28-2011 02:58 PM ET (US)     Profile for JTC  Send Email to JTC     
kglinz: Chose the 250's vs 300's just for cost reasons. I had 225's which were plenty powerful even though they were aging and probably not putting out as much HP as they did when new. I figured the 250's would be plenty and the 300's wouldn't be worth the extra money.
Peter posted 01-28-2011 03:00 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Just a guess here but that has to be a $40+k repower job.
bluewaterpirate posted 01-28-2011 03:43 PM ET (US)     Profile for bluewaterpirate  Send Email to bluewaterpirate     
Depending on rebates and labor closer to $45000.00
JTC posted 01-29-2011 09:15 AM ET (US)     Profile for JTC  Send Email to JTC     
Yeah - not cheap, but when I looked at the resale value of my boat plus the cost of the repower, I couldn't find a newer boat that I felt would be as reliable as brand new engines with a 5 year warranty. And my Whaler dealer was very happy to have the work this winter, so pretty much win-win all around! I go offshore quite a lot so the only way I was going to be in a 30 foot whaler with pretty much brand new power was going to be by spending a lot more than the repower.

Going to see the boat in progress this coming week - will post some pictures.

JTC posted 01-29-2011 09:58 AM ET (US)     Profile for JTC  Send Email to JTC     
I was re-reading the discussion and I realize that I never posted the exact weight calculation that I did prior to committing to the repower. Here is what I calculated:

Optimax 225
Dry Weight: 497 x 2 = 994
Oil: 6 gals x 7 lbs/gal = 42
Total: 1,036 lbs (not including lower unit oil)

Yamaha F250 Offshore
Dry Weight: 562 x 2 = 1,124
Oil: 2 gals x 2 x 7 lbs/gal = 28
Total: 1,152 lbs

Total Difference: 116 lbs (11% more than Optimax or about 1% of boat weight)

Oil quantities and weights are approximate, but they don't really make a difference. I'm reasonably sure that the additional 116 pounds on the transom will have a negligible effect on ride, etc, but proof will be in the pudding.

RevengeFamily posted 02-02-2011 09:03 AM ET (US)     Profile for RevengeFamily  Send Email to RevengeFamily     
Looks like you did your homework...

I have every faith in Yamaha. My 1990 Revenge 22WT has twin 1999 Yamaha F 100's. They are reliable, quiet and fuel stingy... I can actually have a conversation without yelling at the top of my lungs while underway.

My 1999 280 Conquest has twin 225 Optimax's, I'm tired of buying and refilling the oil tanks, they are noisey and gulp fuel at an alarming rate. I've been thinking about repowering so I've been watching your post with interest.

Looking forward to your photos and eventually to a post regarding your shake down cruise.

Best,
Norm

sosmerc posted 02-04-2011 12:47 AM ET (US)     Profile for sosmerc  Send Email to sosmerc     
I ran across this while doing a search on plasma coating...
looks like this is the company that is working with Yamaha on their "break-through" technology.
I see VW also uses them, among others I'm sure.
http://www.ukintpress-conferences.com/conf/10ex_conf/pdfs/Day_3_5_Peter_Ernst.pdf
sosmerc posted 02-04-2011 01:11 AM ET (US)     Profile for sosmerc  Send Email to sosmerc     
http://www.me.berkeley.edu/~mford/Ford_Fisher_PTWA.pdf

Apparently Ford is also VERY involved in furthering the development of plasma coated cylinders. I get the impression that this may be the next wave along with direct injection and variable valve timing.

JTC posted 02-04-2011 06:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for JTC  Send Email to JTC     
sosmerc - many thanks for posting those links! I had tried (though obviously not hard enough) to find some information about plasma coatings in engines and was unsuccessful. Really interesting stuff!

On the repower: the latest is that my shop has convinced me to upgrade my autopilot (Raymarine S1G) to the newer X10 computer which does not require a position sensor attached to the outboard hydraulic steering cylinder. My old sensor had failed, plus they felt that there wasn't enough room to fit the sensor elegantly. I've heard good things about the X10 so I'm hopeful it will be an upgrade all around plus one fewer component to fail at sea!

Mambo Minnow posted 02-05-2011 01:38 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mambo Minnow  Send Email to Mambo Minnow     
I went to the Baltimore Boat Show last weekend. There were many more of the new Yamaha Offshore V-6 series on display on boats. Perhaps a sign the manufacturers have reopened production lines and sold off aged inventory.

I was particularly happy to see there is a side panel mount throttle shift control option available. The digital display options are also small enough in size that they should easily be mountable on most helms. I would also likely keep analog instrumentation in place.

JTC posted 02-07-2011 10:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for JTC  Send Email to JTC     
Visited the shop today - the repower is mostly finished! Still waiting for the new instrument panel to arrive so the electronics can be mounted, but here are some quick cell-phone pictures. I think the shop has better ones which I'll post when I receive!

LCD Engine display waiting for the blank panel and new all-digital throttle:
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l482/28Conquest/IMAG0106.jpg

Motors mounted and rigged:
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l482/28Conquest/IMAG0107.jpg

It was really nice to get rid of the old autopilot rudder position sensor. It's a much cleaner and tighter install for the hydraulic steering and tie bar.

Motors on the boat from behind:
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l482/28Conquest/IMAG0111.jpg


Regarding comments about motor size: They're a bit bigger than my old Opti's but the size doesn't bother me at all. There wasn't enough space in the shop to get a good perspective shot, but I don't think they will look out of place in the water.

The LCD engine display (Command Link Plus) is amazingly bright - I don't think it will be any problem seeing it in direct sunlight (and anyways I have a hard top). It's pretty cool, but I haven't really played with it yet of course.

In addition to the repower and autopilot upgrade, I also had the batteries switched over to the AGM style which should be more reliable and longer lasting (had some battery failures in the past), plus a new charging system as my old one went kaput. Spring cannot come soon enough! :)

kglinz posted 02-08-2011 04:58 AM ET (US)     Profile for kglinz  Send Email to kglinz     
Did you have to redrill the transom. The "older" F 250 and F 225s required 28.5" centers and the Optis were on 26" centers, as I recall.
JTC posted 02-08-2011 11:07 AM ET (US)     Profile for JTC  Send Email to JTC     
kglinz - I don't think so! Nobody mentioned anything about redrilling, but I'll ask.
chim chim posted 02-08-2011 11:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for chim chim  Send Email to chim chim     
Just out of curiosity, how do these new offshore 250 Yami's compare to the new 250 Verados? I am in the process of purchasing a new 2010 285 Conquest with the 250 Verados. That boat gets on a plane in a jiffy, even with 5 adults on the boat during my recent test drive.... quiet, and extremely powerful. Obviously, the Yami's are lighter, and i would imagine more fuel efficient. How do they compare?
Peter posted 02-09-2011 08:20 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
From JTC's pictures, it looks like the motors went into the same bolt holes. No evidence of redrilling and gel coat. It does not look like there is much space between the motors.

Before you accept the work done, make sure that you don't have any interference between the motors when turned hard to port or starboard with one of the motors tilted up all the way and at various states of trim between one and the other.

conch posted 02-09-2011 10:21 AM ET (US)     Profile for conch  Send Email to conch     
My 250hp Yamaha engines are centered at 32 inches apart on the Offshore 27,any less would be pretty tight I would think.

Great repower thread ,please keep the photos coming

Chuck

Peter posted 02-09-2011 11:21 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
On my Whaler 27, the Evinrude 225s are mounting on something between a 29 and 30 inch center. I haven't checked it in years so I can't remember the exact number but its not 26 inches. It might not have been Whaler's practice or recommendation to mount on a 26 inch center.
conch posted 02-09-2011 01:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for conch  Send Email to conch     
In the second picture if you look at the port upper engine mounting bolts,and if they are 12 3/4inches apart,then the space between to the starboard engine upper bolt appears to be at least 10in.

Chuck

littleblue posted 02-09-2011 02:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for littleblue  Send Email to littleblue     
I'm drooling over those motors! Congrats! Please let us know the fuel burn when you get to finally run her.
Peter posted 02-09-2011 09:51 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Here is a picture of my motors at something between 29 and 30 inches on center.

i177.photobucket.com/albums/w231/Whaler-Fleet/CW%20Posts/ FromStern-OutofWater-1.jpg

Lots of space between them. Each of your old Optimax, being 60 degree V motors instead of 90 degree Vs like the Evinrudes, were probably a bit narrower than the Evinrudes.

onlyawhaler posted 02-09-2011 11:42 PM ET (US)     Profile for onlyawhaler  Send Email to onlyawhaler     
Thanks for pics and keep this coming. VERY interesting and looking foward to see how these work for you.

Sterling
Onlyawhaler

JTC posted 02-11-2011 09:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for JTC  Send Email to JTC     
Got some more pics from the shop today!

Old motors removed:
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l482/28Conquest/Chung-Re-Power015. jpg


They had to do some glasswork because the new throttle control was smaller than the old one so the cutout had to be made smaller.

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l482/28Conquest/Chung-Re-Power013. jpg
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l482/28Conquest/Chung-Re-Power016. jpg
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l482/28Conquest/Chung-Re-Power021. jpg

New fuel lines, primer bulbs, and filters (so much cleaner than the old install)
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l482/28Conquest/Chung-Re-Power025. jpg

Brand new babies on the transom!
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l482/28Conquest/Chung-Re-Power028. jpg

I don't have a good picture, but there is plenty of separation between the motors - it will definitely not be an issue in any way. The folks doing it are one of the biggest Boston Whaler dealers and they've been looking after my 2 whalers for many years!

conch posted 02-12-2011 09:08 AM ET (US)     Profile for conch  Send Email to conch     
Looks great, will you use a larger battery size?

Chuck

sosmerc posted 02-12-2011 11:54 AM ET (US)     Profile for sosmerc  Send Email to sosmerc     
I'll bet you are getting excited now! I know I am.......can't wait to hear the report on your sea trial.
Keep us posted.
littleblue posted 02-12-2011 02:36 PM ET (US)     Profile for littleblue  Send Email to littleblue     
Time to get her in the water!
JTC posted 02-12-2011 11:02 PM ET (US)     Profile for JTC  Send Email to JTC     

Yeah - really can't wait! At this point we're just waiting for the new blank upper panel to show up, plus a few minor bits and pieces.

My marina doesn't officially open until May 1, but I can usually splash a few weeks before (hopefully all the snow will be gone by then). I'm hoping to be around when they do their own sea trials and calibrate the new autopilot, though!

re: Battery size, funny you mention it. I swapped the old conventional 1000 MCA batteries for new AGM ones. The new batteries are physically bigger than the old ones, but I think they are still 1000 MCA.

elenakagan posted 02-13-2011 07:17 PM ET (US)     Profile for elenakagan  Send Email to elenakagan     
Make sure those gray fuel lines are ethanol resistant, most folks use the black ones these days. Looks great!
bill4tuna posted 02-21-2011 08:26 PM ET (US)     Profile for bill4tuna  Send Email to bill4tuna     
I purchased a 2003 255 conquest, hull only, and had it powered with twin 150hp yamaha outboards. All rigging was new, including removing the lead plate from the transom which was installed on the boat when it had a 150 hp factory installed mercury. Love those yamahas. you can't go wrong.
JTC posted 02-22-2011 09:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for JTC  Send Email to JTC     
Latest update:

It looks like someone wants to purchase my old motors (they still run decently well and I've kept up with al the upgrades, etc) but they want all the old analog dials that I no longer need, so.... I'm going to replace most of the original instrument panel with a shallow storage shelf / box to have a place to put cell phones, sunglasses, etc. Here is a mockup of what it might look like:

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l482/28Conquest/woodpanel.jpg

except that I decided to have them fabricate the shelf in black starboard instead of teak because the teak would probably look out of place since the entire dash is all fiberglass and black plastic.

The nice thing is that the newly fabricated box will basically screw right in, and just replace the left 2/3 of the original instrument panel (and even hide the rough edge where the panel will be cut).

The other little upgrade that I"m trying is a very inexpensive modification to my trim tabs. The only thing I don't like about my boat is that it can pound in a head sea when there's more than a 2-3 foot chop. The original trim tabs are pretty small for this size of boat, but because they fit into specially designed "pockets" they can't really be made bigger. Bennett (the OEM trim tab provider) suggested adding "DF12" drop fins which are just stainless steel 3" fins that are bolted onto the edges of the tab. This apparently makes the tab significantly more effective because it channels more water across the tab surface instead of allowing it to wash out the sides.

Here's a picture of the drop fin as it will be mounted (showing only one - two will actually be installed on each tab):

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l482/28Conquest/Trim-Tab.jpg

kglinz posted 03-26-2011 06:27 PM ET (US)     Profile for kglinz  Send Email to kglinz     
Any update?
JTC posted 03-27-2011 03:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for JTC  Send Email to JTC     
I think everything is just about finished! Just emailed them and am waiting to hear when I can come down and splash her.

We ended up doing the new dash storage box in black starboard as we felt it would blend in better, and the instrument panel is going to be a bit tighter than we'd originally mocked up, but hopefully it will still look good.

Will post pictures as soon as it's all done and will be posting performance numbers once I've gotten through the break-in period on the motors and can let 'em rip! (and when the weather cooperates here in the frozen and windy northeast)

JTC posted 03-28-2011 11:31 AM ET (US)     Profile for JTC  Send Email to JTC     

And... just got word that all the shop work is finished! They will splash the week of April 12 (tech is away for training until then) and deliver week of the 18th.

Here's a pic of the finished dash - the vertical space was pretty tight, but it all still fit and I have the 3 critical instruments, navigation, autopilot, and engine instruments, all up front.

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l482/28Conquest/Finisheddash.jpg

Can't wait to see how she performs in the water!!!


JTC posted 04-26-2011 10:17 PM ET (US)     Profile for JTC  Send Email to JTC     
Ugh - I'm supposed to pick up the boat on Thursday morning, but the weather is looking a bit dicey. If the prediction holds it should be fine, but I definitely will not be able to get any real numbers this week (3-4ft waves in Cape Cod Bay)

Hoping the forecast improves! Will post pictures and whatever results I can get asap! Can't wait!!

Mambo Minnow posted 04-30-2011 10:52 AM ET (US)     Profile for Mambo Minnow  Send Email to Mambo Minnow     
JTC, bringing my Conquest to Sesuit in June. I'd love to see your motors firsthand and hear how they performed this summer. I am very interested in doing the same repower in the next few years. Good luck with the sea trials!
JTC posted 05-08-2011 12:05 AM ET (US)     Profile for JTC  Send Email to JTC     
FINALLY!!!

Finally picked up the boat yesterday and brought it about 10 miles along the southern edge of Cape Cod Bay to its dock at Sesuit Harbor. Was a fairly windy day - blowing 15 knots basically straight at us kicking up 2-3ft waves. So we couldn't really test out performance. I'm getting some numbers from the shop from their initial sea trials which I'll post as soon as I get them.

But I did spend a bunch of time testing out the responsiveness, hole shot, and planing characteristics and I have to say that I am incredibly pleased! Hole shot is ridiculous - these engines have tremendous torque. My impression is that the hole shot is better than the old 225 Optimaxes that they replaced, but basically the boat just pops straight up on plane without any ploughing, excessive bow rise, etc. You push the digital controls all the way forward and the next thing you know it you are up on plane pushing 15 knots and accelerating.

Lower speed planing is also really impressive. Motoring into a decent head sea, I experimented with dialing back the the RPMS to see where it would fall off plane. I was really surprised to discover that I could stay up on plane down to around 10-12 knots and easily hold any speed above or below that. So instead of having that annoying "hole" in your speed range where if you try to slow down a bit you end up falling off plane and going a lot slower (and then you have to crank up the throttle to get back up on plane again), the repowered boat easily allowed me to set the RPMS and speed for whatever I wanted to.

This is my first experience with digital controls, and I am incredibly impressed. The engines automatically synchronize RPMs so you don't have to think about that at all. The control is obviously super smooth since you aren'r pulling any actual cables, but they did a good job of making the feel very familiar. Shifting has a very positive feel to it and they felt very confidence inspiring when maneuvering at docking speed.

Lastly the Command Link Plus LCD display is just plain awesome. I haven't played around with it much, but I found the display to be super readable and intuitive, and it gave all the important information for both engines (RPM, temp, electrical, fuel levels, and fuel economy) without feeling crowded. Economy-wise I was getting about a 1.25 miles per gallon cruise but this was right into a 15 knot wind with the motors fully trimmed down and the tabs down. Plus I was probably going slower than optimum (about 15 knots) to keep things comfortable.

Here are some pictures!

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l482/28Conquest/IMAG0167.jpg

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l482/28Conquest/IMAG0168.jpg

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l482/28Conquest/IMAG0170.jpg

bluewaterpirate posted 05-08-2011 12:34 AM ET (US)     Profile for bluewaterpirate  Send Email to bluewaterpirate     
Great report ..... nice to see Yamaha has stepped into the next generation of motor control and display. Your really going to like those motors. Congrats!
littleblue posted 05-08-2011 01:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for littleblue  Send Email to littleblue     
Awesome! Those look beautiful! Can't wait to win the lottery so I can buy one for myself! :)
sosmerc posted 05-08-2011 07:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for sosmerc  Send Email to sosmerc     
Keep the performance reports coming.
Beautiful rig job, nice and neat on the transom. My only question/concern....I would have put a support plate behind the upper mounting bolts......you have a lot of horsepower trying to pull those upper bolts thru the transom when underway.
Tom W Clark posted 05-09-2011 11:22 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Joe -- Very Nice. I look forward to seeing some performance numbers when the conditions allow.

It look like you're on the East Dennis side of Sesuit Harbor. You'll be very near my brother-in-law's Huckins, Quadrum and their classic ribside Outrage 21.

JTC posted 05-14-2011 10:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for JTC  Send Email to JTC     
Woo hoo - nature smiled today and gave us a beautiful windless day on Cape Cod Bay. Ran down with my youngest son and got out for a proper shakedown cruise and some performance measurements.

Here's how it came out:

WOT:
47mph
5,700 RPM
1 mpg

BEST CRUISE:
28mph
3,800 RPM
1.5 mpg


SLOW PLANE
14mph
2,800 RPM
1.1 mpg

Flat and Calm conditions, 3/4 fuel (230 gallons). 17" Revolution 4 props.

The RPMS above 38 were also pretty efficient: 1.4mpg up to around 4200-4300 and then dropping down from there. So the boat will run through the upper range of speed without burning much extra fuel.

I measured speed both on the GPS and from the speed sensor on the motor itself and they correlated well. I was running across the breeze (which was pretty much nonexistent anyways) and tried it both directions so I feel that these numbers are pretty accurate!

Needless to say I'm very pleased with the results of the repower. I am especially happy that the boat appears to be propped just about right... I know that ideally I'd get a couple hundred more RPM at WOT, but they don't do the Revolution 4 in 15" counter rotating, so I'd have to move to an entirely different prop which I don't want to do.


littleblue posted 05-19-2011 09:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for littleblue  Send Email to littleblue     
Curious, how does the fuel efficiency and general performance compare to your old Optimax motors?
JTC posted 05-20-2011 08:50 AM ET (US)     Profile for JTC  Send Email to JTC     

littleblue: great question. Unfortunately my fuel flow meter was not working well on the old engines, but I roughly speaking I used to cruise at approx 4000 RPM running 28mph at about 20 gph = 1.4 mpg. So probably about the same efficiency.

The strange thing is that my old setup must either have had considerably more prop slip towards the top end or my analog tachometers were inaccurate because my top speed was about 5200 RPM running about 37mph which works out to be about 25% prop slip as compared to the new setup (exact same props!) of only 10% at 5700 RPM. Next time I'm out, I'll measure my new speed at 5200 for a better comparison.

The most surprising thing for me is the responsiveness and power, even at lower RPMs. Please bear in mind that the old Optimaxes were reaching the end of their operational life and had not been well maintained by their first owner, and I went from 225 HP to 250 HP, so this is not a fair reflection on Optimax vs. Yamaha Offshore. However, much to my positive surprise, I found that my time to plane is at least as fast if not faster than before. Some folks have reported serious difficulties getting up on plane with 4-stroke motors on this hull and I was really worried the new 4.2L Offshore motors might have some issues here. Fortunately, it's not remotely an issue. The boat will also hold plane at virtually any speed.

Peter posted 05-20-2011 10:42 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
There should be no surprise about the low and mid range responsiveness of the new 4.2L offshore motors, they've got 27 percent more displacement than 1st generation 4-strokes had. The new 4.2L motors clearly address the low and mid range torque shortcomings of the 1st generation motors.

As shown in graphs in an article by Paul Dawson, it takes about 20 to 25 percent more displacement in a 4-stroke to closely approximate the powercurve of a comparable 2-stroke. These new motors have about 40 percent more displacement than the old Optimax so my expectation would be that these motors would feel more responsive than the Optimaxes.

littleblue posted 05-20-2011 12:32 PM ET (US)     Profile for littleblue  Send Email to littleblue     
Thanks for the info. They sound like great motors. I'd be seriously cookin if I got a single 250 for my 22 Outrage! One day....
kglinz posted 10-05-2011 02:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for kglinz  Send Email to kglinz     
JTC

Any update, after a Summer of use

JTC posted 10-05-2011 10:09 PM ET (US)     Profile for JTC  Send Email to JTC     
Sadly only a few more weeks of our very short Northeast season, and still hoping to get out for one more tuna trip! The motors have performed flawlessly from day one. Aside from the recommended 20-hour oil change, I have done nothing but add gas.

I have nothing but good things to say about them! I can't compare to other 4-strokes as these are my first, but I can definitely say that the upgrade from the Optimaxes easily exceeded my expectations. If anyone is worried about low end torque, don't be - these motors have plenty.

kglinz posted 10-06-2011 10:04 AM ET (US)     Profile for kglinz  Send Email to kglinz     
Thanks for the update. Glad it worked out. I've looked at going to F300s, but just can't justify it, unless my F225s as least cough once.
Mambo Minnow posted 10-06-2011 11:45 AM ET (US)     Profile for Mambo Minnow  Send Email to Mambo Minnow     
Did you have to pull the boat from the water to perform the 20 hr oil service?

As you prepare for winterization, what maintenance steps/costs do they require with this motor? Many of us would probably welcome that feedback.

I am trying to also indirectly get a feel for how the "self service" improvements of the new Mercury 150 Four Stroke will improve the four stroke owner experience. If you are following the other thread, Mercury has made the new motor more self-maintenance capable in response to first generation four stroke owner experience.

The OptiMax is one of the most complicated systems I have owned, requires more than average dealer service assistance compared to my previous two-stroke experience.

martyn1075 posted 10-06-2011 10:43 PM ET (US)     Profile for martyn1075  Send Email to martyn1075     
Mambo Minnow.. I have heard you have had success with your OptiMax. Do you keep them running all year or do you shut them down for long periods of time. I would be curious what you do with yours. I have a pair as well.

Martyn

JTC posted 10-07-2011 07:55 AM ET (US)     Profile for JTC  Send Email to JTC     
I have all the service & winterization for the motors performed by my BW dealer, so I can't really compare. I know that they did not lift the boat out of the water for the 20 hr service, but I think that's just a simple oil change plus checking a few things.

I'll check the invoice after they winterize and see what they do / charge, but come to think of it, I don't think they will perform the annual service until the spring.

bluewaterpirate posted 10-07-2011 10:09 AM ET (US)     Profile for bluewaterpirate  Send Email to bluewaterpirate     
I've got a ten year old 225 Opti with over 4000 hours on it. When we bought our 210 Ventura in early 02 I asked the mechanic what I needed to do to keep it in tip top shape. He said, "Run the pure to living hell out of it." I listened to what he said and it worked.

Asto maintance,I change the water pump, plugs, plug wires at 300 hour intervals. Fuel and ol filters every 100 hours plus remove the prop and grease and inspect. The last thing is I inspect and clean it after every use.

http://i676.photobucket.com/albums/vv129/bluewaterpirate/ Optimax%20225%20%202002/OptiPicture.jpg?t=1287702989

http://i676.photobucket.com/albums/vv129/bluewaterpirate/ Optimax%20225%20%202002/OptiFilter1.jpg?t=1292258380

There you go.

Tom

martyn1075 posted 10-07-2011 11:06 AM ET (US)     Profile for martyn1075  Send Email to martyn1075     
Tom it looks happy inside you can tell. I can see why it performs well. Thanks
I agree to keep it going thats what I have been doing so far since new as long as your gas oil are clean and battery is charged they seem to be happy.

Thanks

martyn1075 posted 10-07-2011 11:10 AM ET (US)     Profile for martyn1075  Send Email to martyn1075     
Mambo Minnow... sorry perhaps you have also had success with your OptiMax. I would welcome your thoughts as well but now I recall that it was bluewaterpirate was the one I was thinking of who has logged 4000 hrs! on his OptiMax motor.

Thanks

Mambo Minnow posted 10-07-2011 01:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mambo Minnow  Send Email to Mambo Minnow     
Martyn, I guess I can claim some measure of success in that I have a 12 year old model OptiMax that has not yet grenaded. It's a 1999 and everything I have read 2001 was the worst year when Mercury got a different supplier of injectors.

I know how to perform basic two stroke maintenance myself, but my confidence level with this complicated DFI technology makes me periodically take it in for service to get the DDT diagnostic readings.

Ease of maintenance is not this motor's strong point.

- You can't easily access the #6 spark plug w/o removing the lower cowling halves. You risk stripping the threads w/o the use of an articulated socket.

- The cowling is heavy and difficult to remove. The initial fiberglass cowling was replaced with a lighter, cheaper plastic cowling. The latches are stiff.

- I get alot of ghost alarms when the 3 gallon oil reservoir gets more than a gallon low. The common solution is to lift off the cowl, open the 1 gallon tank cap and let the oil "top off". Only a 1/4 inch gap is enough to set off the alarm.

- The air compressor has been redesigned after a series of reported destructions.

It's starting to show some signs of age. My tilt trim like others report has a slow leak. Two dealers have told me not worth the labor costs to remove/replace.

I can not use mine as frequently as Bluewaterpirate, but it is a strong performer. Above is why I am so interested in the new 150 FourStroke ease of service features.

martyn1075 posted 10-07-2011 06:51 PM ET (US)     Profile for martyn1075  Send Email to martyn1075     
Sounds like mine my tilt as reported has been (well if I could swear I would) but the engine has been good overall with great gas milage.
Do u spray it with quicksilver corrosion guard?
Mambo Minnow posted 10-07-2011 07:25 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mambo Minnow  Send Email to Mambo Minnow     
I have tried Corrosion Guard but I found a bad side effect. I found it was very difficult to remove from painted parts. I like CRC products better.
RevengeFamily posted 09-18-2012 09:29 PM ET (US)     Profile for RevengeFamily  Send Email to RevengeFamily     
JTC...

Any further comments regarding your second season with your F250 Yamaha's?

I have had just about enough with my 1999 Optimax's...

Norm

JTC posted 09-19-2012 09:35 AM ET (US)     Profile for JTC  Send Email to JTC     
2nd season not quite finished (still hoping to get out for a couple more tuna trips), but motors have been totally flawless so far to the point where I don't even think about anything besides fuel level. I don't baby them, but I don't abuse them either. I flush them after each run (I made up a Y-hose with quick-release connectors to make this as easy as possible) and I use Ring Free fuel additive. I do quite a few hours of trolling and the motors just purr along. So far, I couldn't be happier. Definitely talk to your dealer about any upcoming extended warranty promotions before you complete the purchase. So far no warranty issues have come up, but I'm glad I got the free extension (to 5 years total).
Tates posted 09-19-2012 11:27 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tates  Send Email to Tates     
How many hours do you have on your engines?
Thanks
Tates
JTC posted 09-19-2012 02:29 PM ET (US)     Profile for JTC  Send Email to JTC     
About 140 hours I believe.
RevengeFamily posted 09-22-2012 07:27 AM ET (US)     Profile for RevengeFamily  Send Email to RevengeFamily     
That's fantastic news...

What was the total cost for the new motors and the rigging?

Norm

dave_maggio posted 09-22-2012 10:44 AM ET (US)     Profile for dave_maggio  Send Email to dave_maggio     
Norm, just for kicks I figured that I would throw in my experience. I have a 2002 295 Conquest which I purchased back in May of this year. The original owner purchased the boat with a pair of Honda 225's which are still on the boat. I have put about 100 hours on the boat this summer and they have a total of about 700 hours on them. My boat certainly does not have the top end that JTC is getting, it tops out around 41 mph, but, I am experiencing a similar cruising speed 27 mph at 3,900 rpms with what I believe to be similar economy. I do not know if the Hondas would represent any savings in a repower situation, but, I have been happy with the performance that motors provide on this hull. I do have a set of four blade props on the boat.
kglinz posted 09-23-2012 03:40 PM ET (US)     Profile for kglinz  Send Email to kglinz     
Norm

You might check on repowering with 3.3 Liter F250s. They are cable throttle and shift and can use your current
throttle. If you have analog gages, you can probably use them as well, using the Adapter that Mercury used on the 225 EFI. Should save several thousand dollars. The only problem is that neither Yamaha or Mercury factory will give you much help figuring out what works with what.

RevengeFamily posted 09-23-2012 09:17 PM ET (US)     Profile for RevengeFamily  Send Email to RevengeFamily     
I appreciate every ones input... My first step will be locating a Yamaha dealer that I can get the boat to. I used Yamaha's site and found that most of their dealers in my neck of the woods are landlocked. I have access to a tri-axle trailer but it belongs to a friend who will need it for his own boat in a few weeks.

Norm

conch posted 09-24-2012 10:30 AM ET (US)     Profile for conch  Send Email to conch     
Norm,to do a twin v6 engine repower the dealer you select can probably pickup your boat and return it for your seatrial with the new motors installed.
Chuck
jimh posted 09-27-2012 08:10 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
This has been a great discussion, and I am glad to see the thread is still active and we're getting updates on performance.

The electronic engine monitoring gauge from Yamaha for these 4.2-liter OFFSHORE model engines is really a terrific piece of electronics. I have seen this gauge in person. It is very nicely designed, and it shows all the data you need on the engine on one screen. Kudos to Yamaha for that design. I don't know how it works with twin engines, but if like the single engine display, it ought to be grand.

JTC posted 09-27-2012 10:43 PM ET (US)     Profile for JTC  Send Email to JTC     
The Commandlink Plus has been really great. No problem displaying information from both engines plus everything else of importance. My only concern is that if the unit fails then there's zero information available -- even the fuel gauge is on the the display! Though come to think of it I believe I can connect the engine data through NMEA to my chartplotter, which I have not bothered to do.

Mambo Minnow posted 09-30-2012 08:49 AM ET (US)     Profile for Mambo Minnow  Send Email to Mambo Minnow     
I took a Yamaha demo ride yesterday in Falmouth on a Pursuit 280CC rigged with twin Yamaha 250s. The sticker price on the console was approximately $150K. My primary interest was to check out the sound levels while underway. This is my wife's number one reason to support a re power. Also onboard with us was a 1991 Grady While owner who has 200 Yamaha HPDIs.

Best performances I recall from the electronic display were 47mph for top speed and 24 gph. The electronic display on the helm was very easy to read, but we did not have any sun glare to interfere. The boat also had a T-top. The helmsman accommodated our request to put the boat through its full paces. My son thoroughly enjoyed the "e-ticket" ride. We were halfway to Martha's Vineyard. The seas on an overcast day were relatively flat. Throughout the ride we were able to carry on a casual conversation without raising our voices. At WOT, the motor had what is best described as a low, throaty rumble.

The dealer told us they have done quite a few re powers. As we returned to the harbor, I noticed all Yamaha's with the single exception of one Mercury at the docks. There are two Yamaha dealerships on either side of the harbor and he said they pretty much have locked up the local market.

I asked about maintenance costs and warranty. There is a 20 hour first service for oil and gear case change. Also intervals at 100 and 300 hours. I was curious if this second generation of four stroke still has a valve train maintenance, which the Evinrude E-tec advertisements have used as a counter selling point on low maintenance costs. They told me there is at 500 hours and the cost of this service is approximately $400.

The warranty is normally three years, but with Y.E.S. an extra fourth year is provided at zero additional cost. You must purchase at additional expense a 5th and 6th year optional extension. The extra cost surprised me for six years.
I thought the advertised six years promotion was available at no additional cost.

Overall, I was very impressed but the recent posts on the new Honda BF250 also have me interested in that motor as a repower candidate as well. I still am waiting to see if Mercury expands their new 150 Fourstroke into additional offerings in the higher horsepower range. It is nice to have options!

readyoarknot posted 08-23-2015 09:31 PM ET (US)     Profile for readyoarknot  Send Email to readyoarknot     
found this old great thread.

Do you still have the boat? are you still happy?

do you recall what props did you have on the 2-strokes?

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