Search found 116 matches

by Vance's Revenge
Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:10 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: Fuel Tank Fastening System Retrospective
Replies: 10
Views: 3015

Re: Fuel Tank Fastening System Retrospective

Phil, If I were to [redo the installation of a new fuel tank] again. I would foam-in the tank and [apply a sealing top coat] over the top [of the foam] using fiberglass [resin and cloth]. It was a tremendous amount of work to prevent water from accessing the fuel tank cavity from all directions inte...
by Vance's Revenge
Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:42 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: 1979 SPORT 15 Full Refit
Replies: 17
Views: 2274

Re: 1979 SPORT 15 Full Refit

Very nice!
by Vance's Revenge
Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:31 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: 1986 Johnson 90 Makes Knocking Noise
Replies: 38
Views: 6771

Re: 1986 Johnson 90 Makes Knocking Noise

I never hit a rev limiter or even know what the limit is set on a 90hp OMC motor from those years. Is it possible he hit the rev limit and the shutdown caused his knocking sound?
by Vance's Revenge
Wed Aug 03, 2022 2:49 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: Hard Polyurethane Self-centering Keel Rollers; Gel Coat Damage
Replies: 2
Views: 1396

Re: Hard Polyurethane Self-centering Keel Rollers; Gel Coat Damage

I have used the self-centering rollers, and they do work well. But, they aren't as strong as non-centering and can crack on larger boats. Most brands are junk for anything other than very light boats; through trial and error I found that the Stoltz brand rollers hold up the best. Don't try to use ro...
by Vance's Revenge
Tue Aug 02, 2022 6:34 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: 1986 Johnson 90 Makes Knocking Noise
Replies: 38
Views: 6771

Re: 1986 Johnson 90 Makes Knocking Noise

Again thanks for all the input... Kend--I want to make sure that you realize how serious this is. If that VRO isn't oiling correctly when you switch to raw gas you can be ruining that motor for good. There is no second chance on damage due to lack of lubrication. And, 5-ounces to 5-gallons is not n...
by Vance's Revenge
Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:26 am
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: 1986 Johnson 90 Makes Knocking Noise
Replies: 38
Views: 6771

Re: 1986 Johnson 90 Makes Knocking Noise

All the replies were helpful, to answer a few questions, the vro was rebuilt at the time the engine was rebuilt, the noise or knocking sounded like a Diesel engine starting but stopped as soon as the engine came back to a lower rpm , I ran it agin for about 5 minutes at a high speed but not all out...
by Vance's Revenge
Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:17 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: 1986 Johnson 90 Makes Knocking Noise
Replies: 38
Views: 6771

Re: 1986 Johnson 90 Makes Knocking Noise

VRO systems were also not the best... Absolutely agree about VRO Systems not being the best. Some say VRO's got a bad rap and if maintained correctly they were good. I say there is no reason to take a chance on ruining your outboard engine. I bought my 1992 Johnson GT 200 new and disconnected the V...
by Vance's Revenge
Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:17 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: Fuel Tank Fastening System Retrospective
Replies: 10
Views: 3015

Re: Fuel Tank Fastening System Retrospective

When I've replaced tanks, I always foam them in. Foam locks the tank in place and also support the bottom and sides, foam also removes any space where gas vapors can collect. Water will eventually get into a tank cavity (cavity where the tank is placed). However, on the Whaler outrage models, the d...
by Vance's Revenge
Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:24 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: Fuel Tank Fastening System Retrospective
Replies: 10
Views: 3015

Fuel Tank Fastening System Retrospective

FUEL TANK FASTENING SYSTEM I wanted something incredibly strong to hold in place the new fuel tank I was installing on my REVENGE 22 because I was not going to foam-in-place the new fuel tank. I didn't have a way to weld aluminum so I needed to utilize stainless screws, nuts, and bolts to construct ...
by Vance's Revenge
Sun Jun 19, 2022 9:53 am
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: Tips on Applying Paint
Replies: 5
Views: 1525

Re: Paint vs Gel Coat

I used Awlgrip on my 1980 Revenge 22 restoration because the gelcoat was in horrible condition. I use my boat in harsh sandy salt water environments and after four years of service the Awlgrip has held up tremendously well. As a comparison, the person I bought the boat from had painted it with singl...
by Vance's Revenge
Sun Jun 05, 2022 2:00 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: Hull Drains: Using Fiberglass Tubes to Replace Brass Tubes
Replies: 16
Views: 4036

Re: Hull Drains: Using Fiberglass Tubes to Replace Brass Tubes

Can fiberglass tubes be used as replacement drain tubes in saltwater with success? LONG BACK STORY I just received four feet of the [Max Gain Systems] one-inch-ID tube. I think roughing up the fiberglass tubes [and then applying a] few coats of WEST Systems epoxy would seal the tubes. If the [the f...
by Vance's Revenge
Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:13 am
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: Hull Drains: Using Fiberglass Tubes to Replace Brass Tubes
Replies: 16
Views: 4036

Re: Hull Drains: Using Fiberglass Tubes to Replace Brass Tubes

There has to be fiberglass tubes available made with epoxy that would be less expensive than carbon fiber tubes. Fiberglass tubes should not be able to cause galvanic corrosion either. Carbon Fiber tubes can cause galvanic corrosion if they contact metal. But I would think a rubber boat plug should ...
by Vance's Revenge
Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:56 am
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: Hull Drains: Using Fiberglass Tubes to Replace Brass Tubes
Replies: 16
Views: 4036

Re: Hull Drains: Using Fiberglass Tubes to Replace Brass Tubes

The brass drain tubes used by Boston Whaler in the 1980's may have been economical for the factory and acceptable in the early years of the Boston Whaler boat production, but brass tubes as drain tubes have been found by some to be a major culprit leading to water intrusion into the foam core of Un...
by Vance's Revenge
Wed Jun 01, 2022 11:03 am
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: Hull Drains: Using Fiberglass Tubes to Replace Brass Tubes
Replies: 16
Views: 4036

Re: Hull Drains: Using Fiberglass Tubes to Replace Brass Tubes

What is the permeability to water intrusion of the fiberglass tubes? The lower end of the drain tubes are typically always immersed in water. If a Unibond hull boat lives in water, is there a reasonable concern for the fiberglass tubes becoming saturated with water at their below-the-waterline end?...
by Vance's Revenge
Tue May 31, 2022 11:17 am
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: Hull Drains: Using Fiberglass Tubes to Replace Brass Tubes
Replies: 16
Views: 4036

Hull Drains: Using Fiberglass Tubes to Replace Brass Tubes

The brass drain tubes used by Boston Whaler in the 1980's may have been economical for the factory and acceptable in the early years of the Boston Whaler boat production, but brass tubes as drain tubes have been found by some to be a major culprit leading to water intrusion into the foam core of Uni...
by Vance's Revenge
Sat May 28, 2022 4:09 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: 2000 Mercury FourStroke 90 Voltage Regulator
Replies: 12
Views: 2949

Re: 2000 Mercury FourStroke 90 voltage regulator

If you are positive the part from Yamaha will work. It is worth every penny to buy Yamaha factory parts. Especially electronic parts.
by Vance's Revenge
Sat May 28, 2022 12:59 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: 1984 REVENGE 22 CUDDY Transom Drain
Replies: 11
Views: 1863

Re: 1984 REVENGE 22 CUDDY Transom Drain

I just removed the transom drain tube and it was mostly gone. Boat was sitting wrapped for last 2 years and transom is not dripping water now that the drain was removed. It is slightly damp . After 2 years I'm surprised the transom is still damp unless the wrap leaked water into your motor well. Th...
by Vance's Revenge
Fri May 27, 2022 10:48 am
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: 1984 REVENGE 22 CUDDY Transom Drain
Replies: 11
Views: 1863

Re: 1984 REVENGE 22 CUDDY Transom Drain

How far water will rise in the starboard aft cockpit sump when the through-hull drain is not plugged will depend on the weight on the boat and its distribution. I suspect that at the time of the original design and production of the 22-foot hull, rigging with a single outboard engine of that era wo...
by Vance's Revenge
Thu May 26, 2022 6:19 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: 1984 REVENGE 22 CUDDY Transom Drain
Replies: 11
Views: 1863

Re: 1984 REVENGE 22 CUDDY Transom Drain

My 1980 Revenge 22 had a black ball scupper at both the transom drain and the transom side of the tube between the below deck fish well and deep motor well. They were original from the factory but no longer available so I replaced the one on my transom with a T-H Marine Flow Max Ball Scupper. There ...
by Vance's Revenge
Thu May 26, 2022 10:21 am
Forum: The GAM
Topic: Another Reminder: UNSINKABLE Boston Whaler
Replies: 2
Views: 786

Re: Another Reminder: UNSINKABLE Boston Whaler

My personal rules before I decide to fish with someone on the ocean in their boat. Does it float upside down? Does it have two motors? I prefer a main motor and a kicker motor over twins. Often problems occur that can take out both twins while a kicker motor has the advantage of being tilted in the ...
by Vance's Revenge
Thu May 19, 2022 8:19 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: Caulk for Gunwales and Rub Rails
Replies: 3
Views: 663

Re: Caulk for Gunwales/Rub rails

Thanks Phil, I saw that guys were using OSI Quad #450 on their floor sections such as the fuel tank cover. If I ever have to re-do the floor sections I will defintely use the OSI Quad #450. I had not seen where anyone used OSI Quad #450 on the gunwales. OSI Quad #450 should work great with fiberglas...
by Vance's Revenge
Thu May 19, 2022 8:06 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: Re-doing Fuel Hose Rigging on Twin Engine Boat
Replies: 14
Views: 5437

Re: Re-doing Fuel Hose Rigging on Twin Engine Boat

If there is no corrosion the original design should be sufficient. My concern is how are the tubes sealed in the wall between the Fish Box/Well and the Drain sump? That pass through needs to be sealed well so water doesn't get around the tubes and into your foam core.
by Vance's Revenge
Thu May 19, 2022 1:39 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: Caulk for Gunwales and Rub Rails
Replies: 3
Views: 663

Caulk for Gunwales and Rub Rails

For maintenance I'm adding a couple coats of varnish to the gunwales on my 1980 Revenge 22. When I originally restored them in 2019 (three years ago) I used 3M4200 Fast Cure adhesive sealer on the rub rails, the seams, and the fuel fill because I had some left over from my restoration. The 3M4200FC ...
by Vance's Revenge
Sun May 08, 2022 10:19 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: Wood Care
Replies: 5
Views: 916

Re: Wood Care

I totally agree with everything said above. If you want to put the time in the oil based varnish's look the best. But, it takes a tremendous amount of time, effort and if it is on the outside of the boat, maintenance will take a tremendous amount of time as well. While restoring my boat I began the ...
by Vance's Revenge
Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:59 pm
Forum: The GAM
Topic: 1987 REVENGE 22 Hull Construction
Replies: 10
Views: 1973

Re: 1987 REVENGE 22 Hull Construction

...I was thinking [the four circles in the aft well] were injection points for the foam, as well. The foam is not injected. A liquid compound is poured into the space between the hull and liner. A chemical reaction very rapidly turns the liquid into an expanding foam. To insure venting of air, a nu...
by Vance's Revenge
Mon Apr 18, 2022 10:24 pm
Forum: The GAM
Topic: 1987 REVENGE 22 Hull Construction
Replies: 10
Views: 1973

Re: 1987 REVENGE 22 Hull Construction

In my 1984 Outrage 22, the circles are present. I am not sure what they are--perhaps injection points for foam that are glassed over after set up? (Not likely as they seem to have gel coat in place and are recessed into the surface of the liner.) Or just rejection pin points for the liner mold? It ...
by Vance's Revenge
Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:23 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: 1985 REVENGE 22 Replacement Fuel Tank
Replies: 2
Views: 704

Re: 1985 REVENGE 22 Replacement Fuel Tank

Florida Marine Tanks manufactured the original tank. Depending on where you are located [the cost of shipment of a new take by] freight gets crazy. Pull out the fuel tank--it is easy. Take the fuel tank to a local fabricator and have a copy made. Some fabricators do not want to make fuel tanks for r...
by Vance's Revenge
Thu Mar 24, 2022 12:19 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: 2003 MONTAUK 17 Bait Tank Location
Replies: 13
Views: 2067

Re: 2003 MONTAUK 17 Bait Tank Location

I'm considering putting about a 10-gallon bait tank on a 2003 MONTAUK 17... Adding a bait tank to the swim platform is very common here out west. The bait tanks need to drain over the side or through drain tubes, so puitting the bait tank on the swim platform makes draining easy. On a 22-foot [non-...
by Vance's Revenge
Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:10 am
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: REVENGE 22 Hull Drains
Replies: 39
Views: 30260

Re: REVENGE 22 Hull Drains

Marine-Tex is an odd epoxy. The mixing ratio of resin and hardener is done in very strange proportion. It also contains fillers. It is a hardware-store adhesive filler shortcut. I used quarts of Marine-Tex and gallons West Systems epoxy during the restoration of my 1980 Revenge 22. Both are premium...
by Vance's Revenge
Thu Mar 24, 2022 1:11 am
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: REVENGE 22 Hull Drains
Replies: 39
Views: 30260

Re: REVENGE 22 Hull Drains

...I plan ...use 1/2" Schedule 40 PVC pipe (the white PVC pipe from HomeDepot) and use Marine-Tex to bind/seal it Stay completely away from PVC. Sealants and epoxy don't stick well to PVC, water may be able to gain access to the hull foam core. Also, PVC gets old and brittle over time. Fibergl...
by Vance's Revenge
Sat Mar 19, 2022 2:42 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: OUTRAGE 22: Converting to 122 gallon Fuel Capacity
Replies: 3
Views: 911

Re: OUTRAGE 22: Converting to 122 gallon Fuel Capacity

If you feel that you need that much fuel I'm sure it can be done. The bulkhead between the fuel tank cavity and the rear fish box will have to be cut out. The cut out area will need reinforcement with fiberglass. Figures 1, 2, and 3 shown my 1980 Revenge 22 without the foam around the tank being rep...
by Vance's Revenge
Fri Mar 18, 2022 3:54 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: Fairing compound
Replies: 1
Views: 579

Re: Fairing compound

Amazon is showing Total Fair in stock....It's good stuff!
by Vance's Revenge
Fri Mar 18, 2022 2:52 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: Guardian 18: Advice on Multiple Problems
Replies: 3
Views: 801

Re: Guardian 18 pre-inspections HELP

I totally agree with Phil about pulling all of the drain tubes and letting the hull air out as much as possible. Also, if you are painting the hull; I highly recommend you save yourself the headache of installing brass tubes and replace them with fiberglass tubing instead. Fiberglass tubes are easy ...
by Vance's Revenge
Sat Mar 05, 2022 3:47 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: REVENGE 22 Hull Drains
Replies: 39
Views: 30260

Re: REVENGE 22 Hull Drains

Jim: Your description of how “awkward” it is to access the drain plug in your drain sump due to the stern seat adds to the value of this topic relating to the classic 22’ Revenge and because they share the same hull liner the Outrage 22 models. Anyone looking to purchase or restore a Classic Boston ...
by Vance's Revenge
Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:10 pm
Forum: The GAM
Topic: Whaler Central
Replies: 10
Views: 4506

Re: Whaler Central

Bummer, I hate to see any Boston Whaler information go away.
by Vance's Revenge
Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:07 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: REVENGE 22 Hull Drains
Replies: 39
Views: 30260

Re: REVENGE 22 Hull Drains

Jim--thank you for posting the links to the original owners manual. I had never seen the manual before and only understood how the 22 Outrage and Revenge models drain from removing all the deck covers while restoring my Revenge 22. One topic I noticed in the owners' manual that is incredibly relevan...
by Vance's Revenge
Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:16 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: REVENGE 22 Hull Drains
Replies: 39
Views: 30260

Re: REVENGE 22 Hull Drains

The text below appeared in picture of a Boston Whaler owner's manual found on-line. It explains the drains on 20' and 22' hulls. [Moderator's note: the text below differs from the text in the original printed manual I have. Please see my comment below-jimh] 20 Outboard Models There are five drain tu...
by Vance's Revenge
Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:50 am
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: Re-doing Fuel Hose Rigging on Twin Engine Boat
Replies: 14
Views: 5437

Re: Re-doing Fuel Hose Rigging on Twin Engine Boat

That is a very nice boat! I sure wish we had more Classic Whalers out here on the west coast. It is very hard, or nearly impossible to find a model we want in good condition.
by Vance's Revenge
Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:16 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: REVENGE 22 Hull Drains
Replies: 39
Views: 30260

Re: REVENGE 22 Hull Drains

This topic about hull drains on the Revenge 22 which are also the same on the Outrage 22 during the same production years has some very good information for people replacing their fuel tanks. This topic explains how it is incredibly important to add a drain tube and rubber inspection plug between th...
by Vance's Revenge
Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:25 am
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: REVENGE 22 Hull Drains
Replies: 39
Views: 30260

Re: REVENGE 22 Hull Drains

Steelhead 55--you did a nice job restoring your original plastic fuel tank. I wish my boat had a plastic tank instead of aluminum. Q17: How did you pour the foam and prevent it from getting under the fuel tank? I thought about doing something similar on my Revenge 22 but couldn't think of a way to d...
by Vance's Revenge
Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:09 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: REVENGE 22 Hull Drains
Replies: 39
Views: 30260

Re: REVENGE 22 Hull Drains

In my opinion, your modification is useful. I presume that the lowest point in the fuel tank cavity must be slighter higher than the lowest point in the aft cockpit live well, and that facilitates the water draining out of the fuel tank cavity and into the live well. Due to the modifications I made...
by Vance's Revenge
Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:10 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: REVENGE 22 Hull Drains
Replies: 39
Views: 30260

Re: REVENGE 22 Hull Drains

VANCE--in Figure 6 is that drain between the fuel tank cavity and the [aft cockpit live well] at the bottom of each something you added? When I replaced the fuel tank I didn't foam-in-place the tank. That is why you see the extreme bracing along the top and on each end of the fuel tank. Without the...
by Vance's Revenge
Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:25 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: REVENGE 22 Hull Drains
Replies: 39
Views: 30260

Re: REVENGE 22 Hull Drains

Another through hull tube I wonder if I need it is the brass tube between the live well and the transom well. The end of this tube on the transom well has a ball inside a housing. I think the ball is allowing water to go from live well to the transom well but not from transom well to live well. Q9:...
by Vance's Revenge
Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:51 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: REVENGE 22 Hull Drains
Replies: 39
Views: 30260

Re: REVENGE 22 Hull Drains

On my 1987 REVENGE 22 there are (basically) three through-hull pipes in this topic. ⋅ the "mysterious one" you see in [Figure 1--please refer to image by their figure number], at the fuel-fill and cabin area, which I will call pipe-1. ⋅ another one at the end of the po...
by Vance's Revenge
Mon Nov 08, 2021 4:24 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: Fuel Tank: Removal without damage to Foam; Test PSI
Replies: 9
Views: 3386

Re: Fuel Tank: Removal without damage to Foam; Test PSI

It is sad that I have to get rid of those foam on an unsinkable boat. The reserve buoyancy of the hull with the cockpit is flooded is listed by Boston Whaler as the SWAMPED CAPACITY in lbs. For the 22-foot hull as a REVENGE, the swamped capacity is 5,000-lbs. By removing a few cubic feet in foam vo...
by Vance's Revenge
Mon Nov 08, 2021 4:01 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: Fuel Tank: Removal without damage to Foam; Test PSI
Replies: 9
Views: 3386

Re: Fuel Tank: Removal without damage to Foam; Test PSI

Thanks everyone for valuable opinions. It is sad that I have to get rid of those foam on an unsinkable boat. I probably get a camera to see the inside and pressure test first and go from there. Thanks again. I have to say I highly recommend that you remove and inspect the tank. Even fresh water in ...
by Vance's Revenge
Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:45 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: REVENGE 22 Hull Drains
Replies: 39
Views: 30260

Re: REVENGE 22 Hull Drains

It is possible to be critical of the design of the REVENGE, but I don't find that water in the fuel tank cavity is a big problem. The foam is generally not susceptible to becoming totally saturated with water. In the very rare instance I have seen water sitting atop the foam, it has only been in a ...
by Vance's Revenge
Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:26 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: REVENGE 22 Hull Drains
Replies: 39
Views: 30260

Re: REVENGE 22 Hull Drains

I completely stripped my 1980 Revenge 22 during my rebuild and have been where you are now. You ask very good questions about Boston Whaler's design to drain water under the deck. The answer is all water that runs under the deck on the port side is eventually directed to the top of the fuel tank. Th...
by Vance's Revenge
Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:54 am
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: 1985 Outrage 18 Purpose of small rope
Replies: 6
Views: 2927

Re: 1985 Outrage 18 Purpose of small rope

Although a different hull. My 1980 Revenge 22 had a rope in the starboard rigging tunnel similar to yours which looked factory installed. The rope might have been a good idea for rigging. But the way it was installed was a horrible idea. The rope simply passed through a hole drilled at the end of th...
by Vance's Revenge
Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:20 pm
Forum: REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS
Topic: Seafoam Testimonials
Replies: 2
Views: 3484

Re: Seafoam Testimonials

My river boat has a 1992 Johnson GT 200 on it that I bought new. As soon as the warranty ran out I disconnected the VRO and began premixing my fuel. I run a jet on this motor the majority of each year and guided Salmon with it until 2008 so it has been run hard. Jets are so inefficient they work the...