GARMIN: DSC Radio MMSI Reset and other problems

VHF Marine Band radios, protocol, radio communication theory, practical advice; AIS; DSC; MMSI; EPIRB.
porthole
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GARMIN: DSC Radio MMSI Reset and other problems

Postby porthole » Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:33 am

I have a Garmin VHF 200 radio. The only way to reset the MMSI is to send the radio to Garmin with a check for $50 (3 months ago it required a $100 check). Actually achieving that is difficult. A Garmin web support page suggests finding a dealer. Inputting your zip code brings up every vendor that ever sold a a Garmin product. That doesn't help. And following the various support links just keep sending you back to the the original page.

This Garmin VHF 200 radio came with a used boat, and [the boat] has an international MMSI. I can't transfer the number from the previous owner--Frustrating.

And I have a similar problem with a Garmin chartplotter. The plotter is semi-locked to the original owner's email address.
Last edited by porthole on Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thanks,
Duane
2016 World Cat 230DC
1999 Outrage 21, Yamaha SW Series II 200
1997 Outrage 18, Yamaha 125
1983 15 SS, Honda 50
1980 42 Post
1983 34 Luhrs 340 SF

jimh
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Re: GARMIN: DSC Radio MMSI Reset and other problems

Postby jimh » Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:23 pm

This Garmin VHF 200 radio came with a used boat, and [the radio] has an international MMSI. I can't transfer the number from the previous owner...


Generally a maritime mobile service identity (MMSI) is assigned to a boat, not to individual radios. If you bought the boat and the radio came with the boat, and the radio has the MMSI associated with that boat, then the radio does not need to be changed.

The construction of an MMSI is in accordance with Recommendation ITU-R M.585-8 "Assignment and use of identities in the maritime mobile service."

Assignment of MMSI to a ship is encoded as follows:
--the first three digits represent the "MID" or maritime identification. The MID denotes the administration having jurisdiction over the ship station so identified.
--the next six digits are referred to as the "ship station number"

All MMSI are "international", that is, they work on a global basis. When you describe the MMSI for this radio (or for the whole boat) as "international" I am not clear on your meaning. Let me inquire:

Q1: do you mean the first three digits (the MID) identify an administration jurisdiction that is not the United States of America?

You can look-up MID codes online at an ITU website:
https://www.itu.int/en/ITU-R/terrestrial/fmd/Pages/mid.aspx
Note that MID codes assigned to the USA for North America are 303 (Alaska), 358 (Puerto Rico), 366, 367, 368, and 369 (no special location), 379 (U.S. Virgin Islands)

If the radio MMSI begins 336, 337, 338, or 339, then the registration is appropriate for USA mainland, and you should be able to transfer the registration to you as the new vessel owner.

If the radio MMSI begins with another MID code, then you need to get a new MMSI for the vessel, and then, of course, enter the new MMSI into any radio on the vessel.

Q1: or, do you mean the MMSI ends in a zero?

An MMSI that ends in a zero but has a MID for a USA mainland administration is most likely an MMSI issued by the FCC which generally also almost always means there is an FCC-issued ship station license. You can transfer the registration of an FCC issued MMSI and also the FCC ship station license by filing the proper forms with the FCC. It won't be free.

Let me know the actual MMSI--well at least the first three digits and the last digit--so this problem can be made more clear.

ASIDE: And welcome back. Your participation, particularly in the SMALL BOAT ELECTRICAL forums, has been missed.

jimh
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Re: GARMIN: DSC Radio MMSI Reset and other problems

Postby jimh » Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:32 pm

porthole wrote:I have a Garmin VHF 200 radio. The only way to reset the MMSI is to send the radio to Garmin with a check for $50. Actually achieving that is difficult.


I can sympathize with you about the poor support from Garmin with regard to providing a reasonable means for reset of an MMSI in a DSC radio.

Five years ago in 2015, the Radio Technical Commission for Maritime Services (RTCM), the National Marine Electronics Association (NMEA), and the Global Maritime Distress & Safety System Task Force (GMDSS Task Force) combined to ask manufacturers of VHF Marine Band DSC fixed-mount radios to alter their policy about reset of MMSI in all marine radios.

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/gmdss/taskForce/Notice_to_Manufacturers_of_Marine_VHF_Radios_TF_version.pdf

The Standard-Horizon company is now producing DSC radios that allow the end user to change the MMSI with "advice from the manufacturer", which is actual language in the regulations that govern this function. Based on your account it appears that manufacturer GARMIN has not adopted the change requested (above) and is not providing that service.

Your situation and your account of the difficulties in trying to return the radio to a manufacturer or his authorized service center just add to the many reasons that the industry group asked for a change in 2015.

jimh
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Re: GARMIN: DSC Radio MMSI Reset and other problems

Postby jimh » Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:41 pm

porthole wrote:And I have a similar problem with a Garmin chartplotter. The plotter is semi-locked to the original owner's email address.


I do not believe there are any USA regulations that govern registration of ownership of a chart plotter, so your remedy is likely to be entirely with GARMIN and their product support.

porthole
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Re: GARMIN: DSC Radio MMSI Reset and other problems

Postby porthole » Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:55 pm

Jim, I think the original owner had a FCC license as he used this boat to travel to the Bahamas. This is the blurb he got back from the FCC when he inquired about transferring the number.

"An administrative name change cannot be used to accomplish a change in ownership and/or corporate structure. For these actions the current license must be canceled and a new license applied for. Changes in ownership or corporate structure are subject to enforcement action."

The original owner did cancel his license per this exchange:
"So, I did delete now my license. So the MMSI is attached just to the VHF but not anymore to the FCC and my name. If you register it with the FCC again under Your Name it should work then too. Actually you should so the DSC Call can work, too"

The number currently in the radio is 367721240

On my 21 Outrage I had used BoatUS to register for the MMSI. When I sold the boat is was rather simple through BoatUS to release the number for the new owner.
Thanks,
Duane
2016 World Cat 230DC
1999 Outrage 21, Yamaha SW Series II 200
1997 Outrage 18, Yamaha 125
1983 15 SS, Honda 50
1980 42 Post
1983 34 Luhrs 340 SF

porthole
Posts: 645
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:57 pm
Location: LSD Lower Slower Delaware

Re: GARMIN: DSC Radio MMSI Reset and other problems

Postby porthole » Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:05 pm

jimh wrote:And welcome back. Your participation, particularly in the SMALL BOAT ELECTRICAL forums, has been missed.
ASIDE: Life changes. Retired, no boat for a year or so, chance to sell the house (without listing), planned on RV'ing for 6-12 months, a month later a chance to buy a house that we had looked at a couple of years earlier (and out of Jersey). Then the big move after 24 years in one house, and it doesn't get easier as you get older.

Still settling in 'LSD', Lower Slower Delaware', and they are proud of the nickname.

I had sold the 21 Outrage because I didn't know where we would end up and figured I'd just buy a boat suitable for wherever that was.

The new house isn't on the water but I have a deeded boat dock/slip, almost a straight 7 mile run to the Indian River Inlet and ocean so I started the search again. The 21 Outrage would have been perfect here but the new owner thinks it is perfect in Boca.
I found a really nice 2016 23 World Cat in Fort Myers with similar requirements of my 21 Outrage, a small boat with a head comfortable for women.

So, it's been a busy 18 months.
Thanks,
Duane
2016 World Cat 230DC
1999 Outrage 21, Yamaha SW Series II 200
1997 Outrage 18, Yamaha 125
1983 15 SS, Honda 50
1980 42 Post
1983 34 Luhrs 340 SF

jimh
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Re: GARMIN: DSC Radio MMSI Reset and other problems

Postby jimh » Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:44 am

If you apply for a ship station license with the FCC, you can also get an MMSI. I can’t say for certain, but perhaps you can get the same MMSI as the vessel previously had. The FCC can be somewhat arcane to work with. Unless they have a form, and the form has the data entry field you want, you may be out of luck. A new license will be $220 and have a ten year term.

Look up the MMSI in the ITU database to see if it is still associated with the previous owner.

https://www.itu.int/mmsapp/ShipStation/list

UPDATE: ITU ship station search for that MMSI returned “not found.” However, it could be because it was never in the database. Some older FCC issued MMSI records never made it into the ITU database. Or, it could have been in the data base and deleted when the FCC ship station license was cancelled.

Really, with the cost of a new VHF Marine Band DSC Radio now only $120, the least expensive path forward is to get a new radio and a new MMSI from a secondary agency like BoatUS. That is all you need for boating around Delaware. The closest foreign country is probably beyond your cruising range for a 23-footer.

Leave that GARMIN 200 radio at your house to read the mail on the marine band and get weather broadcasts.

porthole
Posts: 645
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:57 pm
Location: LSD Lower Slower Delaware

Re: GARMIN: DSC Radio MMSI Reset and other problems

Postby porthole » Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:52 am

jimh wrote:
porthole wrote:And I have a similar problem with a Garmin chartplotter. The plotter is semi-locked to the original owner's email address.


I do not believe there are any USA regulations that govern registration of ownership of a chart plotter, so your remedy is likely to be entirely with GARMIN and their product support.
This problem is Garmin-created. Resolution requires multiple steps, the minimum being the original owner using an app "Active Captain" has to do whatever is required on his part to remove his account, then I have to do similar to add my account.What we have not figured out yet is how to do this with the original owner in southwest Florida and the boat with a fixed mount MFD in Delaware.

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/garmin-activecaptain/id1116089313
Thanks,
Duane
2016 World Cat 230DC
1999 Outrage 21, Yamaha SW Series II 200
1997 Outrage 18, Yamaha 125
1983 15 SS, Honda 50
1980 42 Post
1983 34 Luhrs 340 SF

porthole
Posts: 645
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:57 pm
Location: LSD Lower Slower Delaware

Re: GARMIN: DSC Radio MMSI Reset and other problems

Postby porthole » Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:50 am

jimh wrote:If you apply for a ship station license with the FCC, you can also get an MMSI. I can’t say for certain, but perhaps you can get the same MMSI as the vessel previously had. The FCC can be somewhat arcane to work with. Unless they have a form, and the form has the data entry field you want, you may be out of luck. A new license will be $220 and have a ten year term.

Look up the MMSI in the ITU database to see if it is still associated with the previous owner.

https://www.itu.int/mmsapp/ShipStation/list

UPDATE: ITU ship station search for that MMSI returned “not found.” However, it could be because it was never in the database. Some older FCC issued MMSI records never made it into the ITU database. Or, it could have been in the data base and deleted when the FCC ship station license was cancelled.

Really, with the cost of a new VHF Marine Band DSC Radio now only $120, the least expensive path forward is to get a new radio and a new MMSI from a secondary agency like BoatUS. That is all you need for boating around Delaware. The closest foreign country is probably beyond your cruising range for a 23-footer.

Leave that GARMIN 200 radio at your house to read the mail on the marine band and get weather broadcasts.



The original owner did cancel the his ship station license and the MMSI (he traveled to the Bahamas).

Me, not getting a FCC license, no need for the effort or expense and at 64 years I'll be lucky if I'm not drooling on myself in 10 years.
Doing a web search I found a BoatUS page for transfers, not linked through any of their home pages.
I entered all the required pre and current owner data and got back this message.

MMSI Number Warning Message
MMSI number was not assigned through BoatUS. Please contact the issuing agency which assigned this MMSI to determine if it can be transferred.

MMSI beginning with 366, 367, 368, 369 or 377 are assigned by the FCC in connection with prior owner’s ship station license. Contact the FCC at: 877-480-3201 (select opt.2) to determine the status of the license. If cancelled you will be able to add the MMSI to your own ship station license or re-register the number through BoatUS if not required to be licensed.


That last part, re-register through BoatUS, there are no links for that.

As to the radio itself, it is flush mounted. I'm looking to change it anyway as the mic cord is falling apart and when I do find replacement mics they are $150.

Any replacement I buy would be with an AIS receiver. The Garmin VHF can be operated through the Garmin MFD which is nice.

I like the Standard radios so I may just end up with one. It sure would be nice to have boat shows come back on the circuit to go look at all of what is available.

And as far a house radio, just for listening of course, I still have an excellent Standard Omni VHF. IMHO one of the best consumer marine VHF's marketed.
Thanks,
Duane
2016 World Cat 230DC
1999 Outrage 21, Yamaha SW Series II 200
1997 Outrage 18, Yamaha 125
1983 15 SS, Honda 50
1980 42 Post
1983 34 Luhrs 340 SF

porthole
Posts: 645
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:57 pm
Location: LSD Lower Slower Delaware

Re: GARMIN: DSC Radio MMSI Reset and other problems

Postby porthole » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:52 am

SUCCESS !

Since the original MMSI number was issued with the previous owner's ship's station radio license and starts with 367 and ends with 0 it complicates things a bit. The Number was originally issued by the FCC.
The original owner did cancel it through the FCC.

Calling the FCC only resulted in verifying the number was canceled and not reassigned.
Although the FCC initially assigned the number they are unable to re-assign it unless I wanted to get a FCC license, then I could add the unused number to that license.

I called BoatUS and got the right person on the phone - first try.

She was able to drill down multiple BoatUS webpages and found a link that allows the transfer of ‘non BoatUS assigned, FCC canceled, unused MMSI # to a current BoatUS member.

So MMSI 367xxxxx0 number is now assigned to my boat & radio though BoatUS at no cost.

I will still be looking to upgrade the radio though. I had an VHF/AIS receiver on the 21 Outrage and I used it frequently.


If the new owner is not required to carry a Ship Station License and has confirmed that the previous owner has cancelled his ship station license, the new owner can input the FCC assigned MMSI into the BoatUS database by going to Non-BoatUS MMSI service page.
Thanks,
Duane
2016 World Cat 230DC
1999 Outrage 21, Yamaha SW Series II 200
1997 Outrage 18, Yamaha 125
1983 15 SS, Honda 50
1980 42 Post
1983 34 Luhrs 340 SF

jimh
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Location: Michigan, Lower Peninsula
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Re: GARMIN: DSC Radio MMSI Reset and other problems

Postby jimh » Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:32 am

Hey! That is a great solution. It is really not surprising that a non-governmental agency like BoatUS is better able to serve boaters to resolve problems with regulated areas like MMSI than the actual government agency that is supposed to administer those areas.

The only disadvantage to your otherwise very good solution: the MMSI probably won't be in the international data base of ship stations.

ASIDE: since my boating often involves operating in Canadian water, visiting Canadian ports, and making radio calls to Canadian shore stations (like marinas), I actually to have an FCC ship station license, and FCC callsign, an FCC MMSI, and an FCC radio operator's license. I think my ship station license is going to expire soon, and I will have to ponder the value of it for its $220 cost. Right now, Canada won't let recreational boats visit their waters due to the pandemic. And who knows when that will change--but that is another topic.

I may take the same option as you have when my FCC ship station license expires: keep my FCC ends-in-a-zero MMSI and transfer registration over to BoatUS.

porthole
Posts: 645
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:57 pm
Location: LSD Lower Slower Delaware

Re: GARMIN: DSC Radio MMSI Reset and other problems

Postby porthole » Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:04 pm

If nothing else, maybe the above link will save someone from having to R&R and send out a radio at a cost.

And I presume that if I ever do decide I need a license to visit foreign ports, I will be able to assign the existing '0" number to a new license.
Thanks,
Duane
2016 World Cat 230DC
1999 Outrage 21, Yamaha SW Series II 200
1997 Outrage 18, Yamaha 125
1983 15 SS, Honda 50
1980 42 Post
1983 34 Luhrs 340 SF

jimh
Posts: 11670
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:25 pm
Location: Michigan, Lower Peninsula
Contact:

Re: GARMIN: DSC Radio MMSI Reset and other problems

Postby jimh » Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:52 pm

The requirements for using a VHF Marine Band radio in a foreign port do not include any demand for MMSI-capabilities or that the MMSI have a special characteristic. What is actually going on is a cooperative arrangement between nations of "reciprocal licensing."

Reciprocal licensing means that if a ship has a valid ship station license in its own home country, then that authorization is recognized in foreign countries who are members of some group, probably the international maritime organization (IMO) or something similar. Or it may be a treaty agreement on this topic with many signatory countries. This is a courtesy so that a ship that visits foreign ports does not need to get a new radio license from every foreign country it visits.

The same reciprocity is accorded the operators of the ship radio; if they have an operator's license in their own country then they can operate the ship station in the foreign country that recognizes reciprocal licensing.

In the USA, all voluntarily equipped boats, mainly recreational boats, who do not sail to foreign ports, do not contact foreign shore stations, and to not make international voyages, are not individually licensed but are deemed to be LICENSED-BY-RULE. But since those boats do not have an individual ship station license, an individual callsign, they are not covered by reciprocal ship station license agreements.

And in the USA no operator license or permit is needed for a voluntarily-equipped ship radio, as long as operated only in the USA. Again, since the operator has no license, he cannot get reciprocal licensing in a foreign country.

The above is the basis for needing a ship station license from the FCC and a marine radio operator's permit from the FCC if you want to legally use the radio in a foreign waters.

Back to the MMSI: the principal advantage of having an FCC-issued MMSI is that the FCC will pass along information about the vessel and its registered owner to a database maintained by the ITU. There is an assumption that all other seafaring nations will have access to the database and will contribute their ships' MMSI information to the database. Thus having your ship MMSI in the international database would be beneficial, for example, if your boat were in the waters of a foreign country and you sent a DSC Distress Alert message. A rescue agency in the foreign country would be able to look-up details about your boat and who owned it and how to contact the owner in the ITU database.

There has never been a good reason offered--at least not one that I can find--why MMSI data about vessels registered with a non-governmental agency like BoatUS could not also be sent to the international data base. Maybe that will happen someday. Or at least be shared with Canada.

The MMSI registrations issued by the FCC always end in a zero. This is a way of making the MMSI retro-fit prior ship identification and radio calling methods that pre-date digital selective calling. Some older systems supported ship identities with fewer digits. Thus an MMSI that ends in a zero has, in effect, one less digit than an MMSI that ends in digits 1-thru-9. As you can see, if an MMSI is only nine digits, and three are identifiers for the country of registration, that leaves only six digits for the ship station number. If the last digit is a zero and will be ignored in some radio polling system, that leaves only five digits for the ship station number, so the possible total number of ship station numbers for ends-in-zero is then 00000 to 99999, or 100,000 ships (for each MID prefix). The MMSI ship station numbers that can end in 1-thru-9 are then another 900,000 ships. Looking at this for the USA, it makes some sense because:

--most USA recreational boats won't ever be outside of USA waters
--no recreational boats need five-digit ship identity because they do not have legacy radio polling systems trying to call them
--and the scarce five-digit ship identity numbers are conserved for ships that really need them