BRP Announces $300-million Investment in Electric Power

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Don SSDD
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BRP Announces $300-million Investment in Electric Power

Postby Don SSDD » Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:47 am

BRP announced they are investing $300 million into development of electric power for their Ski Doo and motorcycle businesses. It is a modular power development so it seems like the battery power will be usable in their various product lines.

Maybe this is the direction [BRP] will take Evinrude if they chose to get back into outboards.

Electric is the in-thing and may work well on pontoon boats if a big solar canopy were installed.

The press release lacks details:

http://ir.brp.com/news-releases/news-re ... end-2026-0
1986 Outrage 18 with 2001 Honda 130 HP
Former Owner 1991 Guardian 19 with 1994 Evinrude V4 140HP
Former owner 1987 Montauk with 1998 Mercury 90HP
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jimh
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Re: BRP Announces $300-million Investment in Electric Power

Postby jimh » Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:26 am

Don SSDD wrote:Maybe [electrical propulsion] is the direction [BRP] will take Evinrude if they chose to get back into outboards.


Based the complete omission from the press release of the terms "Evinrude" and "outboard", any hint or speculation that Evinrude could be making a comeback in marine propulsion with electric motors seems to be a stretch.

Don SSDD wrote:Electric is the in thing and may work well on pontoon boats if a big solar canopy were installed.

Use of electric motors for propulsion is feasible for easily-driven hulls at displacement speed and has already been demonstrated.

Storage of electrical energy in large capacity batteries has already been demonstrated, but the size, weight, and especially the cost of those batteries limits the application of them to propulsion of smaller boats that are light and have easily driven hulls.

The most significant roadblock for growth in electric propulsion of vehicles and a similar headwind for boats is the ability to recharge the storage battery in a rapid manner. The current state-of-the-art in battery recharging is the so-called Fast DC Charger. These chargers use charging voltages of 500-Volts DC and provide currents of 50-Amperes to even 100-Amperes--that is 50,000-Watts of power. The possibility of generating 50,000-Watts of electrical energy from a photovoltaic array that could be carried on a 20-foot boat is completely unlikely.

Further, the notion of attaching cords that carry 500-Volts DC with current delivery of 100-Amperes to a boat in the water at a dock is extremely worrisome.

An additional problem is the need to supply the Fast DC Charger with a huge amount of utility power, usually necessitating an industrial three-phase 208-VAC power connection. You cannot generate 50,000-Watts of DC power unless you consume even more AC power from the utility line. A typical home built in the last few decades is provided with 240-VAC power at perhaps 200-Amperes. That is 48,000-Watts, but the unfortunate aspect is that the power is generally provided on a distributed bus shared with many other homes. One home might be able to draw that much power from the bus, but not if all the other homes were consuming similar amounts of power.

Don SSDD
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Re: BRP Announces $300-million Investment in Electric Power

Postby Don SSDD » Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:22 pm

My speculation on BRP and electric was based on earlier articles posted here where it seemed BRP were working on something secret in the way of a marine propulsion system for power boats. Since BRP have given up on [two-stroke-power-cycle low emission EPA-compliant outboard engines] and [four-stroke-power-cycle EPA-compliant outboard engines] are well supplied by Yamaha, Mercury, Suzuki, Honda, etc, I am speculating BRP could only be moving into electric [marine propulsion engines].

Combined with [BRP] using their other Rotax snowmobile and motorcycle engines in an Evinrude product, it seems logical to speculate this electric move in those products may lead to an electric outboard.

ASIDE: I recently viewed an informative video by an auto shop in California where they repaired a bad cell in a Tesla 3 battery pack. The [defect in the battery pack] was speculated to have been caused by rust from salt air from the car being used near the Pacific Ocean.

[The auto repair shop] took apart the battery pack—quite a job. The bolt heads on the outside of the pack were rusted off enough that they couldn’t use the correct wrench. If salt air in California caused this much damage [then a conclusion that might be inferred is the battery pack should be thought of as a] scary technology for use in saltwater.

With our use of road salt in Nova Scotia, a Tesla may not be the car to buy around here.

The way the Tesla battery pack is put together looks risky for long term [use]. Tesla has had many quality and service problems. I believe TESLA does not repair battery packs—they just sell new battery packs.

To sell an electric outboard Evinrude would have to provide a good warranty.
1986 Outrage 18 with 2001 Honda 130 HP
Former Owner 1991 Guardian 19 with 1994 Evinrude V4 140HP
Former owner 1987 Montauk with 1998 Mercury 90HP
Nova Scotia

jimh
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Re: BRP Announces $300-million Investment in Electric Power

Postby jimh » Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:02 pm

Don SSDD wrote:To sell an electric outboard Evinrude would have to provide a good warranty.


At one point BRP was offering an unprecedented 10-year warranty coverage period on their gasoline-powered outboard engines. Look what that got them—no where.

Again the most electrifying content in the press release as it might apply to boating with Boston Whaler boats—which is the general topic area of THE GAM—is the complete absence of any mention of boats, of outboards, or of Evinrude by BRP in their statements.

jimh
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Re: BRP Announces $300-million Investment in Electric Power

Postby jimh » Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:31 am

DON—I am glad you mentioned the announcement from BRP (regarding their future plans for their Power Sports group of companies to begin to develop electric motors and electric energy storage assemblies) that contained no mention of Evinrude. I had not seen the announcement. As I mentioned already—perhaps twice—the most interesting content in the BRP announcement is the lack of any content about marine propulsion with electric motors.

As already discussed in other thread topics, marine propulsion with electric outboard motors is expensive, imposes significant limitations on engine run time, requires very expensive, large, and exotic storage batteries, and requires very long times for recharging unless a $150,000 Fast DC charging station is available and none are.

Of the three problems—electric motors, electric energy storage, electric recharging time—the first two are mostly solved but remain expensive, and the third has still not been solved in any practical way, particularly for watercraft which are by their nature more intensive users of propulsion energy than automobiles. That BRP has nothing to offer in this realm is no surprise.

I think the most interested readers of the press release and probably the intended target of the press release will be stockholders or prospective stock buyers or sellers. BRP wants to let investors know of its future direction, and for on-land motor sports, I think they are on the right track.

jimh
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Re: BRP Announces $300-million Investment in Electric Power

Postby jimh » Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:17 pm

In regard to electric propulsion motors for vehicles in the power-sport category, the motorcycle is a good target market for BRP as they make the CAN-AM SPYDER three-wheel motorcyle.

ASIDE: I was very impressed with the Harley-Davidson Live Wire electric motorcycles that were used by two very adventurous fellows to ride from Ushuaia in Patagonia or Tierra del Fuego at the tip of South America to Los Angeles, California, as documented in the film LONG WAY UP.

The two Harley-Davidson Live Wire electric motorcycles made the 13,000 journey without any major problems, other than one battery pack needing to be replaced, apparently due to some glitch in the built-in battery management system. The motorcycles were able to ride about 100-miles on one charge when conditions were optimum--which they seldom were considering the terrain being covered and the roads (or lack of roads) encountered

The battery on the Live Wire is 15.5-kWh capacity and supports DC Fast Charging.

Don SSDD
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Re: BRP Announces $300-million Investment in Electric Power

Postby Don SSDD » Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:46 pm

Not sure if I’m completely off topic with this but Canadian Coast Guard have committed to a diesel electric hybrid survey vessel. I believe with vessels, they use electric motors to do all the work and use diesel to produce electricity. They also use large banks of capacitors to generate large spikes of electric power. This setup reduces fuel consumption and emissions significantly.

There is also a new LNG plant on the drawing board in the Vancouver area, they have ordered tugs- new LNG electric hybrids. Some with a 70 ton bollard pull, which I guess is large. The tugs will operate most of the time on electricity and battery power and be plugged in recharging while at dockside.

I can now speculate (with absolutely no evidence to support my theory) that Evinrude may be working on a hybrid electric outboard, using gasoline, diesel, or natural gas as the power for production of electricity?
1986 Outrage 18 with 2001 Honda 130 HP
Former Owner 1991 Guardian 19 with 1994 Evinrude V4 140HP
Former owner 1987 Montauk with 1998 Mercury 90HP
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jimh
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Re: BRP Announces $300-million Investment in Electric Power

Postby jimh » Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:59 pm

Diesel generating units to make electricity for electric propulsion motors has been the top-of-the-line method for large ship propulsion for decades. But you are still burning carbon fuel to make the power. I don't think that is what BRP would have in mind.

P.S. The icebreaker USCGC MACKINAW built in the 1940's had diesel electric propulsion. Zero-center Ammeters with scales of plus or minus 2,000-Amperes monitored the power consumption to the 900-Volt motors:

Image
Photo credit: Jim Hebert, from my tour of the USCGC MACKINAW in 1998.

2,000-Amperes at 900-Volts is 1.8-MegaWatt.

Don SSDD
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Re: BRP Announces $300-million Investment in Electric Power

Postby Don SSDD » Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:19 pm

The company here in Prince Edward Island that builds the hybrids designed a system for a new offshore drill rig. It reduced diesel consumption by 14%, it launched in 2019 and the rig is owned by Transocean. It recaptures the energy from the anchoring chain system used to maintain positioning while drilling, storing the energy in some kind of lithium battery. Previously, they used energy to pull on the chains only, their system gathers energy from the release of the chain.

The new hybrid tugs eliminate many of the Diesel engines as they had to be running all the time, even when full hp is not needed. These systems are much improved over prior diesel electrics from years gone by.

CP Rail have a hydrogen powered locomotive in process from Ballard Power.

Lots of new energy options. Apparently Enbridge will eventually ship hydrogen via their pipelines, maybe even in the Upper Peninsula. :-)
1986 Outrage 18 with 2001 Honda 130 HP
Former Owner 1991 Guardian 19 with 1994 Evinrude V4 140HP
Former owner 1987 Montauk with 1998 Mercury 90HP
Nova Scotia

Jefecinco
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Re: BRP Announces $300-million Investment in Electric Power

Postby Jefecinco » Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:54 am

Off shore oil rigs in the Gulf of Mexico generally have multiple generators to ensure redundancy. This allows generators to be shut down for maintenance without interrupting operations. It also allows rotation of generators for greater longevity. Generator controls adjust fuel supply to cylinders depending upon the load imposed. As loads approach a predetermined percentage of output capacity another generator starts and comes on-line to share the load. This tends to optimize the load for engine life and fuel economy.

This all leads me to assume the investment in a large lithium battery bank and the complex controls necessary to make it play nicely with the diesel power plant must be somewhat offset by government participation.
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Don SSDD
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Re: BRP Announces $300-million Investment in Electric Power

Postby Don SSDD » Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:37 am

No government money involved, I believe transocean funded the cost of the drill rig and the energy savings come from a reduction in diesel consumption. I believe they reduced the number of diesels engines by 50-70%. It takes a lot of power to tighten the anchor chains of these drills operating in water a mile or 2 deep. What this rig does is captures the energy that happens , previously lost, when the chains move in the other direction. A brand new invention.
1986 Outrage 18 with 2001 Honda 130 HP
Former Owner 1991 Guardian 19 with 1994 Evinrude V4 140HP
Former owner 1987 Montauk with 1998 Mercury 90HP
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Jefecinco
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Re: BRP Announces $300-million Investment in Electric Power

Postby Jefecinco » Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:15 am

Given the tidal range in the North Atlantic coastal areas I imagine taking up the slack in anchor chains a mile or so long as tides lower requires tremendous power due to the weight of the chains. Reversing power flow as the tide rises in a highly efficient electrical system would possibly recover as much as 70% of more of the power used. I am surprised to learn there is space for the lithium battery bank required to store the power generated as the tide rises. The platform must be quite large.

I am surprised to learn fewer generators are required as the day to day power requirement must remain constant and there must be sufficient redundancy to take up anchor chain slack in the case of interruption of the new generation system. Perhaps an array of solar panels is part of the design though it would also require significant space for installation.

The concept is interesting as 99.999% reliability is difficult to achieve. Less reliability may be required on the rig but I would think taught anchor chains would be vital when drilling.
Butch

Don SSDD
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Re: BRP Announces $300-million Investment in Electric Power

Postby Don SSDD » Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:35 pm

I’m no electrical expert at all but how do large capacitors enter into the picture? They supply capacitors in a large rack, a bit bigger that a refrigerator. Each capacitor was about 5 inches by 5 inches by say 20-25 inches.

I’m guessing the tolerance for positioning a rig over a hole is fairly small, like 3-6 cubic ft maybe? I have no idea.
1986 Outrage 18 with 2001 Honda 130 HP
Former Owner 1991 Guardian 19 with 1994 Evinrude V4 140HP
Former owner 1987 Montauk with 1998 Mercury 90HP
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Jefecinco
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Re: BRP Announces $300-million Investment in Electric Power

Postby Jefecinco » Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:52 am

I will claim ignorance of capacitors. In the 1980s we used them in the military when a strong surge of power was needed. An experimental laser weapon was under development for use on aircraft. The device required a lot of power to fire and a generator of sufficient output had too much mass for the aircraft. Ultimately the weapon was successfully fired using power from a capacitor bank which was slowly charged by a relatively small on-board generator.

Using more recent technology it may be possible to more gradually discharge a capacitor bank to provide a discharge over a longer interval. Discharging capacitors in a bank a few at a time in a series of events should be easy to manage with modern computer technology.
Butch

jimh
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Re: BRP Announces $300-million Investment in Electric Power

Postby jimh » Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:54 am

Don SSDD wrote:I’m no electrical expert at all but how do large capacitors enter into the picture?


A capacitor can store electric energy, but generally the cannot store very much energy for a reasonable size.

Here is an example: the thermostat for the furnace at my cabin up north was a fancy model. It used a “mega-capacitor” to supply current to keep the stored setting of the fancy electronics alive if there was a power outage. After about three years of service the mega-capacitor failed. There was a power outage. The cabin has a generator that jumps on-line if the utility power fails. It takes less than a minute for the generator to start, spin up to full speed, and operate a whole-house transfer switch to take over and put the power back on to the cabin. So the mega-capacitor only has to maintain the memory in the thermostat for about a minute.

Last winter there was a utility power outage. The thermostat lost its mind. When the power was restored it came up in the default mode: OFF. I had to drive 270-miles up north in the dead of winter to see what was wrong.

With a little testing I found the three-year old thermostat with mega-capacitor (instead of the usual, simpler, more reliable two AA batteries to sustain the memory with power loss) could not tolerate even a one-second power loss. The on-board mega-capacitor that was supposed to handle little outages and relieve me from having to change the battery once a year had failed. So much for storing electricity on capacitors.

I got a very simple thermostat with two AA batteries for memory keep-alive during power loss. The fancy model with mega-capacitor is in a box, a $300 piece of junk.

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Re: BRP Announces $300-million Investment in Electric Power

Postby dtmackey » Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:14 pm

SkiDoo already uses a capacitor instead of a battery to start the motor, only thing is the capacitor doesn't hold the charge more than a day, so you first must pull start the snowmobile and once it charges up, you can use the SHOT system (capacitor start). I find it highly unlikely that capcitors will be of benefit as significant power sources on today's technology.

As for boat propultion power requirements, charge density of current battery cells and weight, I don't see electric power being viable in the boating world. Yes, there are diesel electric systems in ships, but remember the true source of power is diesel or bunker fuel.

The BRP electric announcement is a new direction, but I feel the direction is best in their CanAm devision of wheeled vehicles and see this being less viable in snowmobiles and PWC.

D-