CONTINUOUSWAVE

On my recently acquired 1998 CONQUEST 21, when I turn the battery switch to ON, I hear a pump running. After looking around, I think the pump may be for the 20-gallon freshwater tank under the deck.

Q1: why would a pump start running and continue to run whenever the battery switch is moved to ON?

I have tried [operating] all [other] switches but none [of the other switches would cause the pump to] turn off.

Q2. could [some sort of mechanism that controls the pump that is always running] possibly be a pressure-actuated shut-off mechanism, [with the result that the pump I hear running] will run continuously if there is no water in the tank [that is associated with this pump]?

If [my hypothesis is] not [correct then my next] guess [for the cause of the pump continuously running [is that there is a] bad switch somewhere [that actually controls operation of the pump].

Q3: on a 1998 CONQUEST 21 what is the purpose of the 20-gallon capacity freshwater tank?

Q4: is the 20-gallon freshwater tank on a 1998 CONQUEST 21 to be used to supply freshwater for washing the deck?

The previous owner from whom I bought thiss 1998 CONQUEST 21 told me there is a raw-water washdown, but I assume that has [pump has] an overboard intake somewhere. (ASIDE: I will leave the raw water and live well systems to be figured-out another day).

If the 20-gallon freshwater tank is unnecessary, I [may try to stop the pump from running by] finding the wires and detaching them from the pump, as I doubt I have any need for the 20-gallon freshwater tank.

ASIDE: Hi everyone: I have been reading this forum and it is a wealth of information. I recently bought a 1998 Conquest 21. In the past I have two 13-foot Boston Whaler boats and other small boats, but the 1998 CONQUEST 21 is the biggest and most complicated boat I have ever owned. I bought it with the intention of getting it the way I want during the winter and putting it in a wet slip in the spring. Unfortunately, I am having some difficulty figuring out what's what.

Also, I found a hose in the stern and when I pushed a button, a little bit of water came out--very little. I assume the tank is empty, but if the tank is not empty I will look for a drain so [any water in the tank] doesn't freeze this winter. I will also have to locate the fill [for the tank]. Unfortunately, I am storing the boat at a property away from my house and only get to work on it over the weekends.

Thanks for any help.

FatherEmmett wrote:Q1: why would a [water] pump start running and continue to run whenever the battery switch is moved to ON?

The only type of water pump which is likely to self-actuate is a pump that is controlled by some sort of automatic system. Typically there are two general arrangements for pumps to be able to self-actuate:

• most older systems employ an external-to-the-pump electrical control switch that reacts to the level of water in a sump area; when the water level rises above a certain threshold, the switch completes the electrical circuit to the pump motor and the pump runs; or,
• some newer systems employ pumps that contain a self-actuating mechanism in the pump itself; the general way these pumps operate is to periodically apply power to the pump motor and then to sense the amount of electrical current that is being consumed; the automatic system then deduces from the amount of current being consumed if the pump is actually lifting water (which will consume significant current), or if the pump is just spinning dry in the air (which will consume very little electrical current).

In either of these two automatic control systems there is a possibility of failure.

In the external-switch control situation, the water-level sensing switch could be physically stuck in the high-water position or could be electrically stuck in the high-water position, and either condition will result in the pump running as long as there is power remaining in the boat battery.

In the internal-switch-pump control situation, if the electrical circuitry that implements the control mechanism fails in a particular way, the pump would always be running.

Also, another possibility is the boat was initially configured with a pump that had internal control for self actuation, and at some time later that pump was replaced with a pump that has no internal controls. This could result in the situation where the replacement pump just runs all the time. This might be the actual problem in your case, as the boat is 26-years-old and to replace a sump pump that has failed is actually quite a reasonable repair that may have occurred.

FatherEmmett wrote:Q2. could [some sort of mechanism that controls the pump that is always running] possibly be a pressure-actuated shut-off mechanism, [with the result that the pump I hear running] will run continuously if there is no water in the tank [that is associated with this pump]?

In order for a pump to be controlled by a pressure-actuated control switch, the tank that is being filled with water by the pump would have to be a sealed tank and a tank that was designed to accumulate pressure.

Typically such a tank on a 21-foot boat would seem very unusual. If there were such a water pressurizing system, it would most likely be associated with a faucet at a sink, or perhaps with a wash-down nozzle and coiled hose arrangement.

FatherEmmett wrote:Q3: on a 1998 CONQUEST 21 what is the purpose of the 20-gallon capacity freshwater tank?

Q4: is the 20-gallon freshwater tank on a 1998 CONQUEST 21 to be used to supply freshwater for washing the deck?

I cannot speak in particulars for your year, model, and length of Boston Whaler boat, but generally a freshwater tank on a boat is used to provide potable water for drinking, not for deck washing.

My guess is that the pump in question can either be raw water or fresh and has a pressure activated cut off in the pump. A sprayer nozzle or faucet is usually what stops the water flow and creates pressure. Since there is no water, there is no pressure to stop the pump. My raw water washdown pump operates in this fashion but it also has an on-off switch on the dashboard for when it is not needed.

THANKS
Thanks for the help. Thanks again, everyone. I appreciate the help. Thanks for the information.

LEARNING
I am not from a boating family so I am figuring things out as I go.

SOLUTION TO CONTINUOUSLY RUNNING PUMP
I will probably remove the wiring [to the pump that runs continuously] if he pump [that is running continuously] turns out to be [the pump that is associated with a 20-gallon water tank].

ELECTRICAL CONFUSION
I am really at a loss for why the switches don’t seem to shut off [the pump that runs continuously]. I would have thought a bad switch would have kept [whatever electrical load it controls] from turning on, not the other way around. I’ll try to figure it out this weekend.

NEW TOPIC: DRINKING WATER
I have no need for a potable water tank. I bring water bottles.

NEW TOPIC: ENTHUSIASM FOR THE NEW BOAT
I am starting to regret the purchase.

NEW TOPIC: FILLING HOLES
I noticed initially that the [SONAR] transducers were mounted on the wrong side: the port side. I removed the SONAR transducers because I don’t like holes in the transom. I filled the holes with thickened epoxy resin.

NEW TOPIC: DISCOVERY THAT ENGINE IS COUNTER-ROTATING
When I looked closely, I noticed I have a counter-rotating engine. I gather from this that the engine is probably not the original the boat was sold with. Maybe the old one died or the original owner wanted more power with the 225 hp. Either way, it was somewhat unexpected but probably not a big deal.

NEW TOPIC: EFFECT OF COUNTER-ROTATING ENGINE ON SONAR TRANSDUCER LOCATION
As a result [of the engine being counter-rotating, I will put new SONAR transducer on the port side of the [transom].

NEW TOPIC: NEW ELECTRONICS
I have a new Garmin SV106. [Perhaps means a GARMIN ECHOMAP SV 106 Ultra, a discontinued product] I want to figure out its wiring before I install it.

NEW TOPIC: WHERE TO INSTALL DISPLAYS AT HELM
An odd thing with this boat is both the old chart plotter with SONAR and a second SONAR were mounted on the port side [of the forward cockpit bulkhead] instead of at starboard side at the helm. I assume it was because there is little room at the helm. I am going to mount the GARMIN ECHOMAP SV 106 Ultra on the port side where the old [chart plotter with SONAR and SONAR-only units] were, but I will use GARMIN ECHOMAP SV 106 Ultra mostly as a SONAR.

NEW TOPIC: UNEXPECTED ELECTRONICS
I found an unopened GARMIN [box] in the cabin that [contains something] similar to [a GARMIN ECHOMAP SV 106 Ultra] but has an eight-inch display screen. I may mount [this new-in-the box GARMIN eight-inch display] at the helm but not attach a transducer. I would use [this new-in-the-box GARMIN] for navigation and use the other [i.e. the GARMIN ECHOMAP SV 106 Ultra] to look for bottom structure.

NEW TOPIC: OPERATING SONAR WITH NO TRANSDUCER
Q5: is using an GARMIN SONAR device without attaching a transducer wrong?

NEW TOPIC: OTHER CONFIGURATIONS OF DISPLAYS
Another option [I have] is to re-mount the Garmin I just removed and use that for navigation.

NEW TOPIC: HOW TO DISPOSE OF UNUSED CHART PLOTTERS AND SONARS
I may sell the unused GARMIN device on eBay.

Father Emmett wrote:I am starting to regret the purchase.

Not to add to your misery, but in your two recent illustrations (Figures 1 and 2 above) the boat seems to be sitting on a floppy-roller trailer. Use of a floppy-roller trailer with a Boston Whaler Unibond hull boat is not recommended. This may be the most concerning aspect of this boat.

Father Emmett wrote:Q5: is using an GARMIN device without attaching a transducer wrong?

Check the GARMIN device to determine if the configuration settings include an option to stop the SONAR from operating. If you do not manually shut off the SONAR, it will probably continue to try to operate without a transducer attached, and that could cause damage to the device.

ASIDE: All GARMIN devices are described by the people who buy them and use them as being "intuitive" to operate, so based on that characteristic of all GARMIN devices, the configuration option that shuts off the SONAR should be very easy to find because you will intuitively know where to look for it. But if you cannot find it, you can contact GARMIN support for help.

I don't know where you are getting the advice about which side of the transom to mount the SONAR transducers, but you need to recognize that you have a boat with an outboard engine. You may have read advice about where to mount SONAR transducers on the transom of boats that are powered by an inboard engine with a propeller shaft that locates the propeller forward of the transom.

With outboard engine boats, any concern for the stream of water coming off the propeller and having bubbles which might interfere with a SONAR is very much mitigated by the location of the propeller several feet AFT of the transom. A SONAR transducer on the transom which is two feet forward of the propeller will not be affected by any bubbles in the stream of accelerated and possibly aerated water coming off the propeller, unless you are making sternway.

Perhaps more important on outboard-powered boats is the effect of any hull strakes or chines on the flow of water coming off the transom. The SONAR transducer may not work properly if mounted in-line with a hull strake or chine.

Regarding the engine being a counter-rotating engine: finding a counter-rotating engine on a single engine boat is probably an indicator that the engine was purchased at some sort of discounted price. A single counter-rotating engine in stock at a dealership that was not paired with a matching standard rotation engine of the same year, model, and power would be somewhat difficult to sell, as generally all single engine installations use a standard rotation engine. This generally reduces the value of trying to sell a single counter-rotating engine without a matched standard-rotation engine.

Other than the drawback of the non-standard set-up for your single engine boat, the other negatives of having a single counter-rotating engine are:

• there are fewer propeller choices for left-hand propellers compared to right-hand propellers, and much fewer used propellers in left-hand configurations; and
• the gear case for a counter-rotating engine is built differently than a standard rotation engine in order to make the opposite propeller shaft rotation able to handle the significant forces exerted by the propeller shaft onto the bearings; this also makes finding replacement gear cases (should the need arise) much more difficult.

Father Emmett wrote:If the 20-gallon freshwater tank is unnecessary, I [may try to stop the pump from running by] finding the wires and detaching them from the pump, as I doubt I have any need for the 20-gallon freshwater tank.

Father Emmett wrote:I will probably remove the wiring [to the pump that runs continuously] if he pump [that is running continuously] turns out to be [the pump that is associated with a 20-gallon water tank].

That seems like a brute-force solution to the problem of the pump running continuously. A better solution will be to investigate this further and find the actual circut element that causes the pump to run continuosly.

As we are repeating this discussion, I will repeat my earlier reply, in case you did not notice my remarks:

FatherEmmett wrote:Q1: why would a [water] pump start running and continue to run whenever the battery switch is moved to ON?

The only type of water pump which is likely to self-actuate is a pump that is controlled by some sort of automatic system. Typically there are two general arrangements for pumps to be able to self-actuate:

• most older systems employ an external-to-the-pump electrical control switch that reacts to the level of water in a sump area; when the water level rises above a certain threshold, the switch completes the electrical circuit to the pump motor and the pump runs; or,
• some newer systems employ pumps that contain a self-actuating mechanism in the pump itself; the general way these pumps operate is to periodically apply power to the pump motor and then to sense the amount of electrical current that is being consumed; the automatic system then deduces from the amount of current being consumed if the pump is actually lifting water (which will consume significant current), or if the pump is just spinning dry in the air (which will consume very little electrical current).

In either of these two automatic control systems there is a possibility of failure.

In the external-switch control situation, the water-level sensing switch could be physically stuck in the high-water position or could be electrically stuck in the high-water position, and either condition will result in the pump running as long as there is power remaining in the boat battery.

In the internal-switch-pump control situation, if the electrical circuitry that implements the control mechanism fails in a particular way, the pump would always be running.

Also, another possibility is the boat was initially configured with a pump that had internal control for self actuation, and at some time later that pump was replaced with a pump that has no internal controls. This could result in the situation where the replacement pump just runs all the time. This might be the actual problem in your case, as the boat is 26-years-old and to replace a sump pump that has failed is actually quite a reasonable repair that may have occurred.

Also I will report another earlier comment with a recommendation regarding the cause of the continually running pump:

fno wrote:My guess is that the pump in question can either be raw water or fresh and has a pressure activated cut off in the pump. A sprayer nozzle or faucet is usually what stops the water flow and creates pressure. Since there is no water, there is no pressure to stop the pump. My raw water washdown pump operates in this fashion but it also has an on-off switch on the dashboard for when it is not needed.

Father Emmett wrote:ELECTRICAL CONFUSION
I am really at a loss for why the switches don’t seem to shut off [the pump that runs continuously]. I would have thought a bad switch would have kept [whatever electrical load it controls] from turning on, not the other way around. I’ll try to figure it out this weekend.

When the electrical current to loads that involve an electrical motor are interrupted by a mechanical electrical contact opening, there is often an arc created. Over time the effect of the arc can be to create a weld between the fixed contact and the moving contact, which results in the electrical circuit being closed all the time.

Interesting point about the trailer. I guess I should be using a bunk trailer. If so, I guess I may try to convert it. I am not going to do anything right now. The damage may have already been done. When I put the boat in a slip this spring, I will either convert it or sell the trailer and buy a bunk trailer. I am starting to wish I bought a Parker.

As far as the SONAR, I ended up buying one with 2-D imaging. I'll mount the transducer and see if I can use both. The two transducers may create interference but I'll deal with that when I get to it. I imagine I could adjust the transducer frequency if necessary.

Moderator's note: upon the introduction of the 13th different topic in this thread, this thread is now closed. The latest new topic added to the thread is now its own thread.

Threads which undertake multiple disparate topics of discussion become unwieldy. The general organization of the forum is that each thread concentrates on a particular topic. To have a thread that discusses more than a dozen topics simultaneously is completely outside the usual organization of the forum.