1984 REVENGE 22 CUDDY Transom Drain

Repair or modification of Boston Whaler boats, their engines, trailers, and gear
dave3825us
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1984 REVENGE 22 CUDDY Transom Drain

Postby dave3825us » Thu May 26, 2022 10:17 am

I have a 1984 REVENGE 22 CUDDY. I need to replace the transom drain tube.

Is the drain tube illustrated below aftermarket or original?

Image

dave3825us
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Re: 84 Whaler Revenge Cuddy 22 transom drain

Postby dave3825us » Thu May 26, 2022 10:47 am

The illustration below shows what is left of a scupper.

Image

Are scuppers commonly mounted over transom drains that far under the water line?

LINK TO VENDOR SITE SHOWING A BALL FLOAT VALVE FOR A SCUPPER
https://www.boatoutfitters.com/flow-max ... FkQAvD_BwE

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Phil T
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Re: 84 Whaler Revenge Cuddy 22 transom drain

Postby Phil T » Thu May 26, 2022 11:37 am

Typically this drain is plugged from inside.

The broken remnant is aftermarket and does not need to be replaced.

I would inspect the O rings and drain tubes in the hull and replace if they have deteriorated.
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dave3825us
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Re: 84 Whaler Revenge Cuddy 22 transom drain

Postby dave3825us » Thu May 26, 2022 11:53 am

Thanks Phil.

The water line is high above the drain. I have never seen a scupper that low.

I am going to replace [something] with new drain tube and skip the scupper--unless anyone has a good reason to have it in the first place since it gets plugged from inside.

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Re: 1984 REVENGE 22 CUDDY Transom Drain

Postby jimh » Thu May 26, 2022 4:35 pm

dave3825us wrote:I have a 1984 REVENGE 22 CUDDY...Is the drain tube illustrated below aftermarket or original?


The OEM configuration on the classic 22-foot hull with a deep engine splash well with a drain at the bottom on center line was to HAVE A CHECK VALVE on the drain in order to PREVENT FLOW OF WATER INTO THE SPLASH WELL WHEN BACKING DOWN. See

https://continuouswave.com/whaler/refer ... elfBailing

On that basis, I would anticipate that the remains of a check valve on the deep engine splashwell drain on center line on your classic 22-foot hull was probably original equipment.

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Re: 1984 REVENGE 22 CUDDY Transom Drain

Postby Vance's Revenge » Thu May 26, 2022 6:19 pm

My 1980 Revenge 22 had a black ball scupper at both the transom drain and the transom side of the tube between the below deck fish well and deep motor well. They were original from the factory but no longer available so I replaced the one on my transom with a T-H Marine Flow Max Ball Scupper. There wasn't enough room to replace the factory ball scupper inside the deep well transom so I now use a plug inside my below deck fish well to keep it from flooding with water from the motor well. From what I can tell from your pictures the T-H Marine or similar Ball Scupper was used and your pictures only show the base plate.

The transom on the 22 Revenge and Outrage hull's are very low and water easily washes over the transom into the deep motor well. If there is not a ball scupper in the transom drain there is no way for the water to escape the motor well unless you were to install a bilge pump. Apparently the factory chose the ball scupper as a check valve to allow the deep motor well to drain.

Due to additional drainage I have installed. I now have 6 of the T-H Marine Ball Scuppers on my Revenge 22 which are going on their 4th season and drain extremely well while the boat is on plane, and allow very little water intrusion while the boat is not on plane.

Here is a link to one on Amazon: [bad link removed--please give a better URL]

Here is a picture of my 1980 Revenge 22 that shows the T-H Marine ball scuppers

Whaler pic full transom both motors and scuppers.jpg
Whaler pic full transom both motors and scuppers.jpg (121.73 KiB) Viewed 326 times



While you are working on the transom:
Be sure to change your brass through hull on the transom if it is bad. If it is bad, your drain tube between the below deck fish well and deep motor well is probably ready to be changed as well.

If you do need to change your brass drain tubes, I recommend you replace them with fiberglass tubes so you never have to change them again.
They are both 1" I.D. tubes.

Also: Jim's post of the factory owners manual is very informative. But, the factory recommended the floor drain to be left open if you don't have a bilge pump in the floor drain sump. Time has proven that is not a good practice. If you leave your floor drain open the entire starboard rigging tunnel and fuel tank cavity will be flooded while your boat is not on plane. This will cause the foam around your fuel tank to absorb water and lead to your fuel tank corroding.


Vance

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Re: 1984 REVENGE 22 CUDDY Transom Drain

Postby jimh » Fri May 27, 2022 9:35 am

How far water will rise in the starboard aft cockpit sump when the through-hull drain is not plugged will depend on the weight on the boat and its distribution. I suspect that at the time of the original design and production of the 22-foot hull, rigging with a single outboard engine of that era would not have caused the starboard aft cockpit sump to habitually overflow when the boat was at rest in static trim. Perhaps if the engine was unusually heavy, there was a large cooler in the stern, and three or four adults gathered in the stern, then the water line would rise to the point where the aft cockpit sum would overflow and begin to fill the rigging tunnel with water, perhaps eventually rising high enough to also overflow and fill the fuel tank cavity in extreme cases.

For a c.1984 boat we are talking about a boat that is 38-years-old, and the hull may have gained weight over the years. Also, boats like a REVENGE or a CUDDY model have more weight forward, which often tends to reduce draft at the stern somewhat. There are a lot of variables.

I had a REVENGE 20 rigged with twin engines on ten-inch setback brackets--so a substantial engine weight. I could leave the aft starboard sump drain open and the seawater would only rise to about two inches in the sump--even while you and another person were standing there to look at how high the water would rise.

On my present boat, a REVENGE 22 W-T Whaler Drive, I usually keep the aft starboard cockpit sump plugged when the boat is in the water, just to keep the sump dry. I generally remove the plug if the boat is going to sit outdoors on the trailer for a long time unattended. That keeps the sump pump from discharging the boat battery if there is a lot of rain.

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Re: 1984 REVENGE 22 CUDDY Transom Drain

Postby Vance's Revenge » Fri May 27, 2022 10:48 am

jimh wrote:How far water will rise in the starboard aft cockpit sump when the through-hull drain is not plugged will depend on the weight on the boat and its distribution. I suspect that at the time of the original design and production of the 22-foot hull, rigging with a single outboard engine of that era would not have caused the starboard aft cockpit sump to habitually overflow when the boat was at rest in static trim. Perhaps if the engine was unusually heavy, there was a large cooler in the stern, and three or four adults gathered in the stern, then the water line would rise to the point where the aft cockpit sum would overflow and begin to fill the rigging tunnel with water, perhaps eventually rising high enough to also overflow and fill the fuel tank cavity in extreme cases.

For a c.1984 boat we are talking about a boat that is 38-years-old, and the hull may have gained weight over the years. Also, boats like a REVENGE or a CUDDY model have more weight forward, which often tends to reduce draft at the stern somewhat. There are a lot of variables.

I had a REVENGE 20 rigged with twin engines on ten-inch setback brackets--so a substantial engine weight. I could leave the aft starboard sump drain open and the seawater would only rise to about two inches in the sump--even while you and another person were standing there to look at how high the water would rise.

On my present boat, a REVENGE 22 W-T Whaler Drive, I usually keep the aft starboard cockpit sump plugged when the boat is in the water, just to keep the sump dry. I generally remove the plug if the boat is going to sit outdoors on the trailer for a long time unattended. That keeps the sump pump from discharging the boat battery if there is a lot of rain.


I suspect each boats static balance will differ as you described above. I never weighed my hull to try and figure out how much water it has absorbed.
I let the boat sit in California (Hot Summers) for 3 years with all drain tubes removed trying to dry the foam as much as possible. When I drilled the 2" hole through the bottom of my fish well approximately 6" to the port side of the Keel the foam was damp, but it was not possible to squeeze water out of the foam. This still really isn't a gauge that has any value as to how much water weight my boat has added.

I don't remember the numbers but when I figured how much weight I was adding to the stern of my boat it was comparable to the twin 115's the hull was designed to handle. The weight figure was derived with the 225 Evinrude two stroke, the Yamaha T 9.9 High Thrust extra long shaft kicker, the 5" Jacking Plate, 1/4" aluminum plate on both sides of the transom and the 1" solid Aluminum plate used to mount and raise the Yamaha Kicker five inches higher than the transom.

The pictured doesn't show it but I usually have 4 Scotty electric downriggers with 60" booms mounted on the Mahogany downrigger beam across the stern wall which I made even with the factory lip on the rear deep motor well. The downriggers and Mahogany beam were not figured in my weight equation because they were not mounted on the stern. I have two group 31 batteries on the Starboard side. One under the shelf beside the helm seat just behind the starboard inspection cover and the other in the helm under the cabinet.

On the port side cabinet I have a small group 22 battery that starts/operates the Yamaha T9.9 and the two port side down riggers.

With all of this weight listed above, myself and two others, along with gear and a fairly small ice chest for drinks and lunch my drain sump with the plug removed fills to just under the floor level.

As to the original topic of this thread.
Using my experience on the water. I'm very aggressive when it comes to fishing. I don't have the luxury of picking the best days for ocean conditions so I often fish on lousy water. On several occasions while reversing into swell and wind chop to hold my position and slow my drift with the weight described above and anglers at the stern; my deep motor well has filled completely to the top with water.

The factory deep motor well needs to be able to drain and the ball scupper system works terrifically. When water doesn't come over the stern there is very little water that enters past the ball scupper. That little ball in the scupper really seals well. In fact, I don't know if I have ever seen more than an inch or two of water in there while at anchor.
Last edited by Vance's Revenge on Sun May 29, 2022 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jimh
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Re: 1984 REVENGE 22 CUDDY Transom Drain

Postby jimh » Fri May 27, 2022 3:09 pm

That low transom will allow a large volume of water that came aboard from a big wave to go right back over the transom and into the sea if you accelerate and get the bow up.

These days many sailboats—the more racing sailboats—are made with no transom at all. The cockpit aft end is completely open to the sea to allow any water coming aboard to go right back to the sea. Of course, sailboats seldom make way astern, and it is almost impossible to sail upwind stern first.

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Re: 1984 REVENGE 22 CUDDY Transom Drain

Postby dave3825us » Sat May 28, 2022 10:24 am

Vance's Revenge wrote:My 1980 Revenge 22 had a black ball scupper at both the transom drain and the transom side of the tube between the below deck fish well and deep motor well. They were original from the factory but no longer available so I replaced the one on my transom with a T-H Marine Flow Max Ball Scupper.



Vance's Revenge wrote:The transom on the 22 Revenge and Outrage hull's are very low and water easily washes over the transom into the deep motor well. If there is not a ball scupper in the transom drain there is no way for the water to escape the motor well unless you were to install a bilge pump. Apparently the factory chose the ball scupper as a check valve to allow the deep motor well to drain.


I just removed the transom drain tube and it was mostly gone. Boat was sitting wrapped for last 2 years and transom is not dripping water now that the drain was removed. It is slightly damp.


Vance's Revenge wrote:Due to additional drainage I have installed. I now have 6 of the T-H Marine Ball Scuppers on my Revenge 22



I like the idea of the 2 additional scuppers above the water line thru the transom. I have taken waves over and think I will add two there also. I never ran the boat without that plug in and when I get her in the water, I am going to pull the plug and see where she sits and how high the water level is without the drain plug. Right now there's a pump back there. I always trailered but now we secured a slip in our towns marina.


Vance's Revenge wrote:If you do need to change your brass drain tubes, I recommend you replace them with fiberglass tubes so you never have to change them again.
They are both 1" I.D. tubes.


I am pulling the deck and going to inspect the tank. While I am in there I want to add a drain from fuel cavity to fish well and leave it plugged in fish well and unplug if I suspect water in the tank cavity.

I have read foam / no foam but that spot always fills with water that never drains anything below the upper drain that's there. Right now I am leaning towards installing a fiberglass tube there and foaming the tank. I do want to ask, are those fiberglass tubes smooth on the inside to work good with 1 inch plugs? And is todays foam better than the foam that was available a few years ago?

Vance's Revenge
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Re: 1984 REVENGE 22 CUDDY Transom Drain

Postby Vance's Revenge » Sat May 28, 2022 12:59 pm

I just removed the transom drain tube and it was mostly gone. Boat was sitting wrapped for last 2 years and transom is not dripping water now that the drain was removed. It is slightly damp
.

After 2 years I'm surprised the transom is still damp unless the wrap leaked water into your motor well. The tube in my transom drain was so bad it came out in about 3 pieces. I was fortunate that my boat was strictly used in salt water so the wood in the transom was still good.
If all of your tubes are the same age as your transom drain tube this is an indicator that most, if not all will need replacement.
If your boat has a tube between the motor well and the fish well it will most likely look similar to your transom tube. It is incredibly important to inspect that tube because the motor well during operation usually has water in the bottom of it which feeds into that tube. If the tube leaks the water goes directly into the foam core. The problem with changing that tube is access at the bottom of the motor well. That in particular is when I decided to switch from brass tube material to fiberglass. 1. I found the Fiberglas tube is much easier to install. 2. It will never corrode and need to be replaced again.

I like the idea of the 2 additional scuppers above the water line thru the transom. I have taken waves over and think I will add two there also. I never ran the boat without that plug in and when I get her in the water, I am going to pull the plug and see where she sits and how high the water level is without the drain plug. Right now there's a pump back there. I always trailered but now we secured a slip in our towns marina.



If you are going to moor your boat you definitely don't want to depend on a pump. The ball scuppers only allow drainage if they are above the water line so it is important that you place them there. If it were me, I would plug off the transom drain and fill the deep motor well full of water and then mark the water line for your drain tubes.
The two scuppers you see in my picture above are not feeding from the motor well. Those are feeding from the deck inside my boat. I have 5 drain tubes that are 1 1/4" ID inside at my deck level. Three in the middle drain to my motor well. The outside 2 drain to sea and those are the two that you see in the picture. I originally planed to add 2 similar to what your planning to do. But I don't moor my boat so I haven't found the need to do it yet.


I am pulling the deck and going to inspect the tank. While I am in there I want to add a drain from fuel cavity to fish well and leave it plugged in fish well and unplug if I suspect water in the tank cavity.


I have read foam / no foam but that spot always fills with water that never drains anything below the upper drain that's there. Right now I am leaning towards installing a fiberglass tube there and foaming the tank. I do want to ask, are those fiberglass tubes smooth on the inside to work good with 1 inch plugs? And is todays foam better than the foam that was available a few years ago?



I couldn't find fiberglass tubes when I originally started my project so I made my own. Those were smooth. When I found fiberglass tubes they are not finished well inside. I originally cleaned and coated the inside with Marine-Tex and sanded them smooth. I then thought about it and stopped doing that. The rubber plugs we use expand enough to easily fill the tube well enough to prevent leaking. Here is a link to the tubes I used. I believe McMaster-Carr has them now as well. https://mgs4u.com/product/1-14-od-round-tube/

Foam or No Foam:
As far as foam or no foam around your tank. The original design of our boats was to direct water that accesses below deck from at least four access points to the fuel tank cavity as a center piece. Because I decided not to foam in my new fuel tank, I spent a tremendous amount of time, money and effort to prevent water from accessing below deck. I was successful but if I were to do it again I would not fight the original design and foam in the tank. But, I would fix the problem of the fuel tank corroding by installing a thin layer of fiberglass over the foam and fuel tank; but below the fuel tank drain tube that drains into the starboard rigging tunnel. I have now seen pictures of this being done and water that is directed to the fuel tank cavity will still drain through and back to your starboard rigging tunnel as designed; but cannot access your foam or tank.

Hopefully your boat has the upgraded 2 piece cover over your fuel tank so you do not have to remove both cabinets under your dash.

If you have not seen this thread it will be worthwhile to read in its entirety. It has quite a few helpful pictures and explains a lot of the process you are about to begin:
https://continuouswave.com/forum/viewto ... f=6&t=6767

I completely stripped my 1980 22 Revenge and rebuilt it so I have been where you are going. If I can help in any way with information let me know. I have quite a few pictures of the process that might be helpful

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Re: 1984 REVENGE 22 CUDDY Transom Drain

Postby dave3825us » Sat Jun 04, 2022 10:23 pm

Vance's Revenge wrote:After 2 years I'm surprised the transom is still damp unless the wrap leaked water into your motor well. The tube in my transom drain was so bad it came out in about 3 pieces. I was fortunate that my boat was strictly used in salt water so the wood in the transom was still good.


Yeah, seems either squirrels or racoons as there's a bunch of little holes in the wrap that I just noticed the other day. My boat only saw one week of lake water two years ago, other than that, its always been salt water.

Vance's Revenge wrote:If all of your tubes are the same age as your transom drain tube this is an indicator that most, if not all will need replacement.
If your boat has a tube between the motor well and the fish well it will most likely look similar to your transom tube. It is incredibly important to inspect that tube because the motor well during operation usually has water in the bottom of it which feeds into that tube. If the tube leaks the water goes directly into the foam core. The problem with changing that tube is access at the bottom of the motor well. That in particular is when I decided to switch from brass tube material to fiberglass. 1. I found the Fiberglas tube is much easier to install. 2. It will never corrode and need to be replaced again.


Transom tube, sump tube at end of rigging tunnel through-hull, fish well through-hull, and fish well into motor well are all shot. Fish well to motor well brass tube seems to have a slight bend to it.

Will the fiber tube flex enough to get through [a drain path with a slight bend]?

Since seeing MGS reply about possible water intrusion [I am undecided about using fiberglass tubes].

What is the worst that can happen if a fiberglass tube is used?

If a fiberglass tube is rough up with sand paper and [the tube interior is coated with a] few layers of epoxy, water ingress should be prevented

[The drains on some unidentified boat] leak. Now I have a bunch of 1-1/4 holes to deal with.

I have seen other people say they have used fiber tubes without problems.

Besides you, twos others on other forums [are] using [fiberglass] tubes.

The transom is wood, but the other ones are foam. I read something about West epoxy reacting with foam core. [On some unidentified boat the] foam is damp.


I am pulling the deck and going to inspect the tank. While I am in there I want to add a drain from fuel tank cavity to fish well and leave it plugged in fish well and unplug if I suspect water in the tank cavity.


I pulled lid . [Something] needs some love. Fish well lid can go another year. Tank is done.

I have read foam-no-foam but that spot always fills with water that never drains anything below the upper drain that's there. Right now I am leaning towards installing a fiberglass tube there and foaming the tank. I do want to ask, are those fiberglass tubes smooth on the inside to work good with 1 inch plugs? And is todays foam better than the foam that was available a few years ago?


Vance's Revenge wrote:Foam or No Foam:
As far as foam or no foam around your tank. The original design of our boats was to direct water that accesses below deck from at least four access points to the fuel tank cavity as a center piece. Because I decided not to foam in my new fuel tank, I spent a tremendous amount of time, money and effort to prevent water from accessing below deck. I was successful but if I were to do it again I would not fight the original design and foam in the tank. But, I would fix the problem of the fuel tank corroding by installing a thin layer of fiberglass over the foam and fuel tank; but below the fuel tank drain tube that drains into the starboard rigging tunnel. I have now seen pictures of this being done and water that is directed to the fuel tank cavity will still drain through and back to your starboard rigging tunnel as designed; but cannot access your foam or tank.


I am really thinking of glassing a new tank in, as long as I can find one, and I see that drain you spoke of. Only thing I may do is add a scupper on it inside the fish well to prevent any of that water entering the fuel cavity from the fish well as we love to fish and 80 percent of the time its full. And if any water went into the fuel cavity thru the rigging tunnel, it would end up in fish well.

Vance's Revenge wrote:Hopefully your boat has the upgraded 2 piece cover over your fuel tank so you do not have to remove both cabinets under your dash.


I do not think so. I was looking at that lid and it needs some love also. Wood is in bad shape. From what I was seeing, those two cabinets will need to come out. But then I can epoxy any holes in there and seal her up. I did find an automatic pump that fits in the cabin sump. I know some Whalers came with them. Where did the water get pumped to? I was thinking since the tank is out, of running a long cpvc pipe from in there to there back somewhere.

Vance's Revenge wrote:If you have not seen this thread it will be worthwhile to read in its entirety. It has quite a few helpful pictures and explains a lot of the process you are about to begin:
https://continuouswave.com/forum/viewto ... f=6&t=6767


I saw that thread and was looking for that tube today and I do not seem to have it. I do have that useless tunnel that goes nowhere. Was thinking of glassing in a tube from there into the port side rigging tunnel or something.