Who Really Wants A T-Top

A conversation among Whalers
dtmackey
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Who Really Wants A T-Top

Postby dtmackey » Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:32 am

[Moderator's note: separated from another discussion seeking a mechanical solution to a problem created by a T-Top being too tall.]

In another thread jimh wrote: A T-Top is really an affectation for boaters who think they need to have complete walk-around access to the entire boat deck while holding a large fishing rod and attempting to land an enormous pelagic ocean game fish and who use their boats in the Tropic of Cancer.
I do not share Jim's narrow opinion on t-tops and own one myself. To be completely transparent - I do not fish, so no enormous pelagic game fish clouding my desire for a t-top. I've owned boats with canvas tops and will never go back.

My reason for having a t-top over a canvas top:
- In rough weather, a canvas top moves around as the boat hits waves
- When folded down, the frame loops (or hoops) are in the way and can bounce in rough seas
- t-top allows for antennas to be placed out of the way and 6' higher
- t-top offers a place to grab hold for passengers
- t-top allows a place for a radar dome
- t-top provides a place to mount LED deck flood lights

I'd speculate that t-tops are more desirable on the ocean and not lake boaters.

jimh
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Re: Who Really Wants A T-Top

Postby jimh » Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:39 am

Among the "advantages" listed, the only significant advantage is that a T-Top creates a nice tall surface to which other gear can be attached, such as mounting bases for radio antennas or lamps. But by listing individual items to be mounted on a T-Top does not new advantages; it's just one advantage--a higher mounting position for stuff.

My lack of affection for a T-Top is based on the location in which most of my boating is done: north of Latitude 45-degrees. The water and air temperatures are generally cooler than when boating in the Tropic of Cancer, so being able to enclose the helm with weather canvas, consisting of a Flying Top, Side Curtains, Windshield, and aft Drop Curtain produces a much warmer environment for boating on many Summer days when you are closer to the North Pole than to the Equator.

Also, the angle of the sun above the horizon when farther North is never going to be overhead. About the best we can get will be on the Summer Solstice at local noon, when the Sun's elevation will be perhaps 66-degrees. Moving ahead to late August, when the air and water temperatures are warmer, the peak elevation of the sun is only 55-degrees.

I mention these Sun elevation angles because with a typical T-Top that is several feet taller than the helmsman, the shade cast by such an elevated object is likely to not be at the helm position unless the sun elevation is close to 90-degrees. To get good sun protection, the overhead object needs to be located much closer to the top of the heads of people standing under it. With my Wm. J. Mills & Co. canvas, I get great sun shade protection even with the low sun angles in the North because the canvas is only about six inches above my head.

We are boating on some big open water, not on "lakes." Lake Superior has a width of about 600-miles. Even Georgian "Bay" has a 100-mile fetch North-South. The size of the body of water really has nothing to do with why I find T-Tops not very useful.

The reason that many boats offer T-Tops is that the boat builders are almost all located in Florida, most of the small boats they make are center console boats, and because of the sun elevation a T-Top will cast much more useful shade at those latitudes. And the boaters in Florida seem to be oblivious to the threat of skin cancer from exposure to ultraviolet radiation from the sun. They all seem to want to expose as much skin to sunlight when boating as possible. A nice tan looks "healthy" but Melanoma is a real threat to your health, particularly if you are a boater, where the water seems to amplify the effects.

As for angling, I do agree that on Northern waters the fish don't grow as large as in tropical water, and there is really never any reason to need to be able to walk around the boat with rod and reel while doing battle with a panfish.

dtmackey
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Re: Who Really Wants A T-Top

Postby dtmackey » Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:29 am

jimh wrote:My lack of affection for a T-Top is based on the location in which most of my boating is done: north of Latitude 45-degrees. The water and air temperatures are generally cooler than when boating in the Tropic of Cancer, so being able to enclose the helm with weather canvas, consisting of a Flying Top, Side Curtains, Windshield, and aft Drop Curtain produces a much warmer environment for boating on many Summer days when you are closer to the North Pole than to the Equator.
You represent a very small sliver of the boat market up there.
I'm guessing latitude 42.5-degrees represents the deep south since we have a number of T-Top companies in the area with a backlog of work.

jimh
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Re: Who Really Wants A T-Top

Postby jimh » Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:06 pm

By the way, I don't have any objection to having a hardtop or a radar arch, I just do not like T-Tops.

A hardtop set at the appropriate height would create as much shade as good canvas. But I would be careful about adding too much weight aloft. If I did get a hardtop, I would want it made with a wood frame and a thin top--too thin to support a person's weight. With a hardtop there could be removable canvas side curtains, a windshield curtain, and a drop curtain. The drawback is the fixed height increase when trailering. However, now that I am into my 70's I can see that my days of 4,800-mile trips towing my boat to the Pacific Coast and back from Michigan are over. A long trailer trip now is about 150-miles. So I can afford to drive more slowly to mitigate the increased wind loading.

This is one thing that astonishes me: I have been passed on the highway by guys towing a center console boat with a T-Top going 70-MPH into a 20-knot headwind. That's over 90-MPH wind on the T-Top; it better be built to that sort of wind loading or it won't last long.

A radar arch would be good, too, but it should be hinged so it can lowered for trailering.

By the way, the solution proposed above to allow the T-Top to be lifted off every time the boat is to be parked under a low-clearance car port is going to make mounting devices on the T-Top that need a wired connection (like radio antennas or lamps, or horns) to the console quite a tedious process. Using a hinged connection and having all the cables routed with some extra cable at the hinge point will make the process of reducing the vertical draft of the boat much simpler.

Also complaints about canvas being in the way when stowed can be mitigated by stowing the canvas with the frame still up.

jimh
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Re: Who Really Wants A T-Top

Postby jimh » Sat Jul 02, 2022 5:25 pm

dtmackey wrote:
jimh wrote:You represent a very small sliver of the boat market up there.
The population of boaters whose boating in the Great Lakes is always north of latitude 45-degrees and who are cruising in outboard engine boats less that 24-feet long and who sleeping aboard is actually rather small, so I may be more representative than you might think. A lot of boats used up here have cabins or pilot houses. The guys with open-cockpit T-Top boats are seldom seen where we usually go cruising.

As I said, the T-Top center console boat is fine for the Tropic of Cancer, which is rather ironically named with regard to the prevalence of Melanoma.

Masbama
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Re: Who Really Wants A T-Top

Postby Masbama » Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:25 pm

I own a 2003 190 Nantucket. I bought it in 2017. It came with a T-top that was well made and looks nice. The T-Top is useful as something to grab when needed but I find it more of a hindrance than help. It creates shade only when you are directly under it and when boating in cool temperatures I wish it wasn’t there so I can receive the warmth of the sun. It makes it hard to cast a rod and reel while fishing and putting on the boat cover is quite a chore. I also worry about hitting low hanging tree branches while towing.

My previous boat was a 1999 Dauntless 18. It came with a foldable Bimini top. I could raise it and lower it as needed and it created shade over most of the boat. It also stored neatly and out of the way.

I guess [choosing between canvas and a T-Top] is a matter of personal preference.

padrefigure
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Re: Who Really Wants A T-Top

Postby padrefigure » Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:53 am

I am confused by the reference to the Tropic of Cancer (23⁰ 26’ North Latitude.) The only US State located below this latitude is Hawaii. Is this the only locale appropriate for T-top installation? Apparently many thousands of boaters make irrational choices and hundreds of boat manufacturers contine to offer more sophisticated designs to imporove comfort, convenience and safety. The evolution from the enclose boat perspective (cabin to pilot house to curtained enclosure) or the open boat school (open cockpit to bimini, radar arch, K-top, T-top, hardotp) seems to converge with the current state of the art Hard Top. Thank goodness innovation reigns supreme and we have the choice to adopt or ignore as we see fit. As a bonus, we can comment on other's choices hopefully get invited along for a ride occaisionally to experience first hand what value innovation brings.

jimh
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Re: Who Really Wants A T-Top

Postby jimh » Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:06 pm

The Tropic of Cancer is the region on the Earth beginning at the equator and extending north where the sun can reach a 90-degree elevation to observers on the ground at some day and time.

The reason I mention this area: it is the region where a T-Top will cast the most effective shade onto the helm of an open center console boat during the Spring and Summer.

jimh
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Re: Who Really Wants A T-Top

Postby jimh » Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:32 pm

Masbama wrote:The T-Top is useful as something to grab when needed...
The design of classic center console open boats usually includes a strong railing around the center console windshield and extending downward on the side of the center console, and side railings on the gunwales. All those railings are often used as "something to grab when needed." On that basis, I think it is quite possible to have a open cockpit center console boat without a T-Top and still have "something to grab when needed."

dtmackey
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Re: Who Really Wants A T-Top

Postby dtmackey » Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:45 am

jimh wrote:The design of classic center console open boats usually includes a strong railing around the center console windshield and extending downward on the side of the center console, and side railings on the gunwales. All those railings are often used as "something to grab when needed." On that basis, I think it is quite possible to have a open cockpit center console boat without a T-Top and still have "something to grab when needed."


I wouldn't put a Boston Whaler boat in this category as everyone I've owned, the railings rattle themselves loose with the wave action. The pieced railings should have been welded for better strength and vibration resistance.

dockthedog
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Re: Who Really Wants A T-Top

Postby dockthedog » Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:47 am

dtmackey wrote:My reason for having a t-top over a canvas top:
- In rough weather, a canvas top moves around as the boat hits waves
- When folded down, the frame loops (or hoops) are in the way and can bounce in rough seas
- t-top allows for antennas to be placed out of the way and 6' higher
- t-top offers a place to grab hold for passengers
- t-top allows a place for a radar dome
- t-top provides a place to mount LED deck flood lights


I do not agree with points first, second, or fourth claimed advantage of a T-Top compared to a canvas top, at least in the instance of a well designed Bimini top:
  1. my Bimini top is rock solid in rough weather
  2. my Bimini top does not bounce or shake when folded down, either on the water or on the trailer, and I frequently leave it down; the caveat is that I had to build a simple seat for stowing which I explain below.
  3. Agree
  4. though not as sturdy as a T-top my Bimini top is stiff enough when deployed to make an excellent grab-hold. In any event, most originally Bimini top equipped boats come with excellent railing around the console which is just as easy to grab as a T-top frame would be
  5. Agree
  6. Agree

On the other hand a T-top:
  • does not provide as much shade as a Bimini top
  • increases bridge clearance
  • increases drag when trailing, and
  • acts as a sail in wind which makes handling more difficult.


The Bimini that comes today on new Boston Whaler boats has tube [support] struts on the front, straps to the aft railing, and (crucially) bracing straps that secure it to the console handrailing. The front tube struts in combination with the bracing straps makes the Bimini solid when deployed. This design largely mitigates the OP's points first, second, and fourth points.

When I first purchased my boat I did find that when stowed the Bimini top bounced quite a bit while trailering or operating in rough seas. So I used some [pressure treated] wood to make a seat (for lack of a better term) that the Bimini rests on, and is tied to, when stowed. I also tie the sides of the bimini frame to the the rails using the rear bimini strap eyes to to restrain the bimini side to side. When I deploy the bimini I simply store the "seat" in the console or the back of my truck.

dtmackey
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Re: Who Really Wants A T-Top

Postby dtmackey » Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:06 am

jimh wrote:As for angling, I do agree that on Northern waters the fish don't grow as large as in tropical water, and there is really never any reason to need to be able to walk around the boat with rod and reel while doing battle with a panfish.


I need to keep you honest Jim. Fish in the north do get quite large and 800-lbw is not uncommon up into the 45th parallel. You aren't hauling one of these aboard your boat with a bimini top. Center console boats attach a block and tackle to the T-top and haul them aboard. I'm guessing your comment was geared toward lake fishing.

Image

I'll be out tuna stalking this weekend.

D-

dtmackey
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Re: Who Really Wants A T-Top

Postby dtmackey » Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:14 am

dockthedog wrote:...I do not agree with points first, second, or fourth claimed advantage of a T-Top compared to a canvas top...
Everyone seeks different things out of their boats. What works for me, may not work for you. I owned several boats with canvas bimini covers (both Whaler and other boat makes) and will never go back to a canvas top. It just doesn't work for me and my use of the boat.

I've also felt that Whaler with their thin skins leave a lot to be desired for firmly securing a t-top to the deck. Anyone else have the console on their Montauk 17' rip out of the deck due to rough water? Scared the death out of me when it happened and it required extensive reinforcement of the deck to fix. The rough ride in wasn't fun with a console that was no longer secured to the deck.

If anyone is interested in canvas, I'll be listing a set of orginal Mills canvas for an Outrage 18 for sale in the next several weeks. Those who love canvas are welcome to it. No use for it.


D-
Last edited by dtmackey on Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

jimh
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Re: Who Really Wants A T-Top

Postby jimh » Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:19 am

In some old publicity photographs, Dick Fisher showed a MONTAUK 17 angling for large pelagics in the Atlantic Ocean. The boat did not have a T-Top.

In the photograph above, it is clear that protection from the sun and UV radiation was not necessary on that particular day. So in the case of heading out in foul weather into a stormy ocean to angle for large pelagics, the T-Top with sufficient structure to act as crane to lift 800-lbs fish aboard is a very compelling argument for having one.

I concede this point: the stainless steel frame that supports the Bimini top on my boat could not be utilized as an attachment point for block-and-tackle to lift 800-lbs aboard, and especially not a large fish probably fighting against it.

Ironically, this example illustrates precisely the situation I posited as being one where a T-Top was appropriate, when I commented initially:

A T-Top is really an affectation for boaters who think they need to have complete walk-around access to the entire boat deck while holding a large fishing rod and attempting to land an enormous pelagic ocean game fish...


When I called a T-Top an "affectation", I did so was because I believe the vast majority of people who have a boat with a T-Top will NOT ever be trying to land an 800-lbs pelagic ocean game fish with a block and tackle attached to their T-Top. And I still believe that now. One picture of one boat (and not a Boston Whaler boat) has not changed my mind.

Also, the boat pictured is not really a center console with a T-Top. It has a somewhat open pilot house that has been designed to be enclosed with weather canvas. The "T-Top" is a much larger structure than found on most center console boats

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Re: Who Really Wants A T-Top

Postby jimh » Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:33 am

dtmackey wrote:...[on every Boston Whaler boat] I've owned, the railings rattle themselves loose with the wave action. The pieced railings should have been welded for better strength and vibration resistance.
Yes, before c.1990 the railings were not welded, but since c.1990 the railings on Boston Whaler boats have typically been all-welded construction and firmly attached.

If talking about Boston Whaler boats prior to 1990, then NONE of them will EVER be suitable for adding a T-Top because there are no suitable points of attachment on those hulls where the base support tubes of a T-Top could be fastened to the hull with enough rigidity and strength to tolerate the enormous forces produced by the wind resistance of the T-Top and its frame.

When a Boston Whaler boat today is offered with a T-Top option, the hull has been designed to have sufficient attachment points of proper strength. Also the T-Top frame has been designed with the specific boat in mind, and, even more significant, the T-Top support strength is designed to have some flexing that matches the hull flexing. It the T-Top cannot flex and the hull does, or vice versa, the the attachment points tend to be overstressed or the hull is overstressed or the frame is overstressed, which all result in cracking of the frame or the hull. Boston Whaler uses careful analysis of hull and frame strength and flexibility to prevent cracking from one part trying to flex and the other part resisting the flex.

(ASIDE: this is demonstrated by the boat I mentioned earlier in an aside; when the frame for the towing arch was damage and repaired with a reinforced weldment, the increased stiffness in that part of the frame cause a different part of the frame to be overstressed and crack.)

So the basis for the argument that a c.1980's boat's railings won't be strong enough to use as grab-handles must be a condition that SUPPORTS an argument for installing a T-Top is not true. There is no way a T-Top could ever be installed on an older Boston Whaler boat because there won't be proper support for attaching it.

jimh
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Re: Who Really Wants A T-Top

Postby jimh » Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:41 am

dtmackey wrote:I've also felt that Whaler with their thin skins leave a lot to be desired for firmly securing a T-top to the deck.
I agree, and that is why only recent Boston Whaler boats that were specifically designed and manufactured for the option of a T-Top have had that option.

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Re: Who Really Wants A T-Top

Postby jimh » Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:53 am

dtmackey wrote:
jimh wrote: I'm guessing your comment was geared toward lake fishing.
About the largest species in the Great Lakes might be the Sturgeon, which once could grow to 100-lbs or more. But there is hardly any fishery for them. Actually most of the Sturgeon left are in a few deep lakes in northern Michigan. The "season" for them begins on a particular day on a particular lake at a particular time, and is closely monitored by the DNR. On one lake known to produce sturgeon, the last season lasted only 35-minutes before the collective limit on fish caught on that lake was reached.

Cf.: https://www.foodandwine.com/news/michig ... 35-minutes

dtmackey
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Re: Who Really Wants A T-Top

Postby dtmackey » Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:43 am

jimh wrote:Also, the boat pictured is not really a center console with a T-Top. It has a somewhat open pilot house that has been designed to be enclosed with weather canvas. The "T-Top" is a much larger structure than found on most center console boats


Around here on the ocean that's called a t-top with curtains. A pilot house is a rigid structure and I'm not sure there is a boat manufacturer that considers the addition of curtains a pilot house. The boat is 29' and the the t-top is sized the same as boats from Regualtor, Southport and a host of other manfucturers. I'd need the definition of "most" center console boats because that generalization doesn't fit most boats in my area.

D-

dtmackey
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Re: Who Really Wants A T-Top

Postby dtmackey » Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:26 pm

A good friend of mine built his own hardtop and it was quite the process. First he had to make a mold so he could make a plug to cast the inner and outer portions of the hardtop.

Making the molds
Image

Mold plug built
Image

Laying up the inner skin on the plug.
Image

Installed all the chase tubes for speakers, lights, antennas and other items to be mounted when finished.
Image

Popping the top cap
Image

Adding blocks to maintain the separation between inner and outer skins
Image

Skins back in the inner and outer molds and clamped for foaming, in this case he used the speaker openings for his "spruce holes". Let's call this "backyard Unibonding"
Image

Painted and ready to install. The pic has some weird color reflections.
Image

Installing the hardtop.
Image

The rear will have supports that attach to the leaning post and allow for curtains to be added.

D-

jimh
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Re: Who Really Wants A T-Top

Postby jimh » Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:58 am

To see the homebrew construction of a hard top was very interesting. And a lot of work.

I have idle thoughts about making a hard top, but with simpler construction. I'd use a Divinycell foam with some wood cross beams and thin plywood, going for least weight. But, being serious, I'll never get around to this. I just don't have the drive to take on a big project like that.

The metal work of the frame shown is probably more impressive than the molded top. Your friend is quite a craftsman--if he indeed fabricated that complex tubing structure.

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Re: Who Really Wants A T-Top

Postby jimh » Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:50 am

I was finally able to get on the water recently, but with the fuel cost at my marina now at $6.50-per-gallon, we just spent two hours at idle speed cruising around Northport Bay and the BIght in the Bay of Northport Bay on Grand Traverse Bay on Lake Michigan. And with this discussion of T-Tops on my mind, I happened to notice a boat along the shore on a nice lift with a T-Top. I was immediately struck by how small the T-Top was, and that the T-top did not extend far enough aft from the console to even cover the very nice upholstered helm seat. There were many rod holders on the aft edge of the T-Top and they were located forward of the helm seat (and there were no poles in them--the usual situation I see even on boats underway with T-Tops). Unless that boat were on a southern heading, it T-Top would never create any shade for the helmsman.

Another problem created with the T-Top is the interference with awnings on boat lifts. Keeping the sun off the boat while it is on a boat lift at a dock is often done with a canvas sun awning. On some boat lifts these awnings even extend downward to keep the sun off the hull sides--remember up North we always have relatively low sun elevation angles--usually on high-gloss varnish hulls of wooden boats. Having the boat at your dock under an awning makes for the best situation: no boat covers to remove to go boating; no boat covers to put on after boating. The boat lift with sun awning is the next best thing to having a complete boat house. The height of a T-Top generally prevents use of the sun awnings.

There is a very nice modern boat just south of my location with an impressive hardtop. But that hardtop is a favorite spots for birds to roost. I have seen the owner out there, standing on the hard top while the boat was in its lift--putting him about 15-feet in the air--scrubbing and rinsing the bird residue off the hard top.

Again, I am focused on the ability to create shade. Shade for the helmsman when the boat in in use, and shade for the boat itself when it is not in use.

I am sure that if the boat is primarily used for angling and carries multiple fishing rods, then having six or eight rod holders on the T-Top is a nice benefit. But I think in a some cases--maybe many cases--the rod holders are more for show than for go.