Hydraulic steering capacity

Repair or modification of Boston Whaler boats, their engines, trailers, and gear
Dauntless
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Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby Dauntless » Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:40 pm

I just bought a 2006 Dauntless 180 with a Mercury Verado 150. I found a bottle of power steering fluid in the console. I was considering bleeding the system and adding Seastar fluid but now not sure I want to mix expensive fluid with maybe a combination of fluids in there now. I’m considering replacing the fluid but can’t find the capacity anywhere and need to know how much fluid to buy.

Also, haven’t found how to flush. If I open both bleed valves and keep turning the wheel will it all pretty much drain out?

jimh
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Re: Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby jimh » Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:40 pm

What sort of hydraulic steering is on the boat? Is it a Sea Star Solutions system? Or a Mercury system that is part of the engine?

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Phil T
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Re: Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby Phil T » Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:13 am

Is there a problem with the steering that you are trying to solve? If not, why mess with it when the season is not yet over.

In the meantime --

Look for the owners manual for the steering.

If you are unable to locate it, follow Jim's guidance above and once you have determined brand/model, go to the manufacturer's website and review the procedures, fluid used etc.
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Jefecinco
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Re: Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby Jefecinco » Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:49 am

I believe there is an API rating on the fluid label. Any fluid meeting the API rating can be used in the Uflex hydraulic system you are using. Capacity is difficult to determine accurately due to differing hose lengths. If you look in the console at the clear plastic hose descending from the helm you should be able to see the level in the hose. If the hose appears empty add fluid until the level is within two or three inches of the helm.

Adding fluid does not necessarily mean the system requires bleeding. Bleeding without a special bleeding tool is a PITA. I've done the job twice and would not do it again without good cause. There are numerous videos on the web demonstrating bleeding methods if you find it is necessary.

I am sure all marine hydraulic steering system fluid meets the API specified by Uflex for Verado hydraulic steering systems. To be certain check your Verado manual to determine what applies.
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Dauntless
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Re: Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby Dauntless » Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:09 pm

jimh wrote:What sort of hydraulic steering is on the boat? Is it a Sea Star Solutions system? Or a Mercury system that is part of the engine?


Not sure how to tell. I’ll look closer when I get home tomorrow to see if I can find out.

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Re: Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby jimh » Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:58 pm

My VERADO history is getting a bit cloudy. Is that 150-HP engine the inline-4 or the inline-6 cylinder model?

The bigger 6-cylinder VERADO engines have their own integral steering system, which I think uses Uflex components.

I don't recall exactly what the 4-cylinder VERADO engines use for steering.

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Phil T
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Re: Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby Phil T » Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:03 pm

It's too bad that Glen's Verado Club is offline due to a database failure. :-(

[Moderator's note: the top page of VERADOCLUB.COM says it is offline permanently. That had to hurt. On CONTINUOUSWAVE there is a great deal of VERADO information. See below for images from CETACEA PAGE 80.]
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Jefecinco
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Re: Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby Jefecinco » Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:28 pm

Jim - I believe the Gen 1 150 HP Verado was a six cylinder engine and uses a Uflex power hydraulic steering system with an electric hydraulic pump. If so, my post, above, is wrong. I failed to read the original post carefully and simply accepted that we were discussing a pure unboosted hydraulic system. Having said that, the API information is correct.
Butch

Dauntless
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Re: Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby Dauntless » Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:10 pm

I thought the 150s were hydraulic and 175 and up were Mercury power steering. I think mine is just the steering wheel pump hydraulic.

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Re: Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby Dauntless » Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:23 pm

Jefecinco wrote:Jim - I believe the Gen 1 150 HP Verado was a six cylinder engine and uses a Uflex power hydraulic steering system with an electric hydraulic pump. If so, my post, above, is wrong. I failed to read the original post carefully and simply accepted that we were discussing a pure unboosted hydraulic system. Having said that, the API information is correct.


[My VERADO 150-HP engine] is a 2006 four-cylinder.

I have the owner's manual supplement. My system is a Teleflex hydraulic. It has a little description and then says read the manual for complete info on the correct type of fluid. I don’t have nor have I ever found another manual.

So I guess I am back to where I started. I still don’t know the correct fluid or how to find the correct API info.

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Re: Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby Jefecinco » Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:01 am

Teleflex is now Uflex. Go to their web site. You should be able to find the API Spec recommended for their system. Since you have the 4 cylinder Verado I believe the information provided in my first post earlier is correct. Frankly, I would not worry about it. If your system is low you can use the Seastar fluid. The fluid does not evaporate. If it is low you have a leak somewhere, most likely at the steering cylinder end caps which are easily replaceable by DIY if necessary.

Did you check the level in the console by looking at the plastic tube descending from the helm pump?
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Re: Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby jimh » Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:12 am

Jefecinco wrote:Teleflex is now Uflex.

Are your sure? I thought Teleflex was now Sea Star Solutions since 2017.

See
Teleflex Marine Becomes SeaStar Solutions
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2044

Uflex is not part of Sea Star Solutions, as far as I can tell from their website:

http://uflexusa.ultraflexgroup.com/en/news-10/company.html

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Re: Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby Jefecinco » Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:31 pm

No, I'm not sure. I've been making assumptions throughout this thread based upon the boat being powered with Verados and the standard Boston Whaler supplied steering systems with Verado engines were all Uflex which is a new name. My mistake for forgetting assumptions can get one in trouble. The old saying that to assume will make an "ass" of "u" and "me" applies.

Regardless of all that, I am sure the fluids are compatible having mixed them before after checking the API ratings.
Butch

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Re: Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby Dauntless » Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:39 am

Jefecinco wrote:Did you check the level in the console by looking at the plastic tube descending from the helm pump?
Yes I checked. There is some fluid in the hose. When I saw the power steering fluid bottle in the console I just figured it had a mix of fluids, wasn’t right, and that I would be better off with it full of the correct fluid. There must be a reason why they make hydraulic steering fluid instead of just $2 bottle of power steering fluid from Autozone. Maybe I should just not worry about it.

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Re: Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby jimh » Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:49 am

Jefecinco wrote:No, I'm not sure [about Teleflex being part of Uflex or vice versa].

I am quite sure that Uflex is not part of SeaStar Solutions, and that Teleflex is part of SeaStar Solution. I think Uflex and SeaStar Solutions are competitors. I think Mercury went with Uflex steering components for their VERADO.

What is still unclear to me is how the smaller, now obsolete, in-line four-cylinder VERADO engines were rigged on Boston Whaler boats for steering.

Q1: what type of steering actuator is used at the engine on the four-cylinder VERADO?

I can answer this myself: I think the four-cylinder VERADO used a convention engine mount with a standard tilt-tube. I presume the actuator is external to the engine, and is probably a center mount actuator that moves on its own sliding shaft. On CETACEA Page 80 I found a good image of a four-cylinder VERADO 150 (although dressed in MARINER color scheme) that shows the steering actuator is external, there is a standard tilt tube, and judging from the appearance, the actuator looks like a Uflex:

Image
From CETACEA Page 80. Original caption says: The new 150-HP Verado was also shown in the MARINER brand trim. This is the overseas marketing brand for Mercury. After all, it is the "international" boat show! Note that the engine mounting bracket is more conventional. All of these new Verado engines are equipped with the Mercury Universal Steering Cylinder seen here. This provides manual hydraulic steering. This should simplify rigging and reduce pricing on these mid-range models. An electric boost pump can be integrated as an option to provide power steering, as found on the larger Verado engines. PhotoCredit: Paul Mucciolo

Q2: is power steering using an external electric boost pump used on the four-cylinder VERADO? Maybe it was an option--Yes, the caption answers that question, too.

Here is another view:

Image
Original caption: The top-rated four cylinder Verado cranks 175-HP from 1.7-liters of displacement. It looks like the hydraulic steering cylinder is a balanced design which moves back and forth on that fixed rod. This means the steering cables will slew around with the engine. Although the sign covers most of it, the mounting bracket looks like the conventional split design with the hydraulic trim and tilt cylinders open and set between the bracket. These two conventional designs should help to control costs on these models. No mention of price has been heard yet. PhotoCredit: Paul Mucciolo

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Re: Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby Jefecinco » Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:25 am

I absolutely don't advocate the use of common automotive power steering fluid in marine hydraulic steering systems unless the API Specifications match those used in a marine environment. I do believe Uflex, Seastar, Teleflex, etc. hydraulic system branded fluids are from the same source and have matching API specifications. I believe aircraft fluid uses the same specification but I can't swear to that. I've read that marina shops often buy aircraft fluid as it is available in larger containers and costs less.

As an owner you would be wise to learn as much as you can about the systems on your boat. If you lack the references needed it would be useful for you to do the research needed to acquire them. Local dealers and the internet are useful sources.

When I operated our boat with hydraulic steering I kept a bottle aboard in case a leak developed while we were on an outing. This was due to a lesson learned when a large leak developed and we had no fluid. Perhaps the previous owner of your boat kept some fluid aboard just in case.

In an emergency fresh water can be used to get you home but that would necessitate flushing and refilling the system. I would rather pay for a towing service than to use salt water in the system to limp home.
Butch

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Re: Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby Jefecinco » Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:09 pm

Per West Marine Technical Advisor all recreational marine hydraulic steering fluids meet the same Military Performance Requirment spec, MIL-PRF-5606. They are all the same mineral oil based fluids and are interchangeable. A newer, more fire resistant spec, primarily for aircraft is based on the 5606 spec. It is MIL-PRF-83282 and is required for use on military aircraft.

I've given some thought of possible substitutes for hydraulic fluid in an emergency. A light weight SAE 10W or multigrade SAE 10W-30 could be used. Certainly it would be preferable to water and could be flushed and replaced at seasons end rather than immediately.
Butch

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Re: Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby Dauntless » Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:06 pm

This [topic was] started because I didn’t want regular automotive power steering fluid in the system.

I have a quart of [SeaStar Solutions] hydraulic fluid. I assume I will need more if I drain and start over.

[Has a boat hydraulic steering system ever been drained and re-filled by a reader of this topic] ?

Give me a good estimate of how much [hydraulic fluid] I will be needed.

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Re: Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby jimh » Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:29 am

To learn the fluid volume capacity of your hydraulic steering system, consult the manufacturer’s installation instructions for details on the helm pump and steering actuator.

A rough estimate: expect at least two quarts will be needed, and have three quarts on hand.

The process of bleeding air from the system can result in some waste of fluid if the process is not done effectively. In some instances recovery of fluid expelled during air bleeding may be possible. Follow the manufacturer’s advice on the air bleed technique and re-use of fluid run through the helm, hoses, and actuator.

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Re: Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby Dauntless » Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:47 pm

jimh wrote:...have three quarts on hand
Three quarts—thank you.

I will search YouTube for how to drain.

I was thinking maybe I could use an air compressor through the fill tube and then the bleed valves. Then fill with new fluid.

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Re: Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby jimh » Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:49 am

Drain the fluid at the lowest point by gravity. Forcing pressurized air INTO the systems sounds counter-productive. Follow the manufacturer's advice.

At the helm pump there are check valves that close the system when the wheel is not turning. Fluid only circulates when the wheel is turned. You may want to gain a better understanding of hydraulic controls systems before connecting air compressors to them.

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Re: Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby jimh » Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:02 am

What is the original problem that is trying to be remedied?

Dauntless
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Re: Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby Dauntless » Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:01 pm

jimh wrote:What is the original problem that is trying to be remedied?


I found a bottle of regular automotive power steering fluid in the console that was not full. I surmised some of it was in my steering system and that I have a mix of different fluids. Since I have not seen regular automotive power steering fluid recommended anywhere I wanted to replace with the correct fluid.

Dauntless
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Re: Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby Dauntless » Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:11 pm

jimh wrote:What is the original problem that is trying to be remedied?


When I search Teleflex Seastar comes up a lot. Their directions say, “any non approved fluid may cause irreparable damage.”

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Re: Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby jimh » Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:10 am

I would call the manufacturer of your steering and seek their advice on recommended fluid.

I don’t know who made the steering on your boat.

Do you know who made the steering on your boat?

I concur with your worry about finding a bottle of automotive power steering fluid on the boat and making an inference that the wrong fluid may have been used in the hydraulic steering.

Check with a local shop to see if they have a power-bleeder accessory. I had the hydraulic steering on my boat—30-year-old Teleflex gear—purged of air with a power-bleed accessory pump made by Teleflex at my dealer. The steering has zero slop and works beautifully. If your local shop has that device, ask for an estimate to have them drain, refill, and purge air from the system.

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Re: Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby Dauntless » Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:32 am

My manual says it’s a Teleflex. Then I think became Seastar and now Dometic. I did speak to a real nice guy there a couple days ago. Says I was correct in thinking I should change fluid to get rid of any PS fluid. Recommended running ATF through until I see it come out of the bleed screws. Then use a mil spec 5606 to flush that. And then the proper Seastar fluid.

I live in a smaller town. Turns out no one seemed to know what milspec 5606 or aviation hydraulic fluid was. Had to drive an hour each way to get a gallon for $32. I’ll order another quart online and give this approach a shot.

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Re: Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby jimh » Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:36 am

Dauntless wrote:My manual says it’s a Teleflex. Then I think became Seastar and now Dometic.
Thank you for mentioning that. I updated another thread on SeaStar Solutions to reflect that change:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2044&p=34081#p34081

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Re: Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby jimh » Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:38 am

Dauntless wrote:....I was correct in thinking I should change fluid to get rid of any PS fluid. [Manufacturer] recommended running ATF through until I see it come out of the bleed screws. Then use a mil spec 5606 to flush that. And then the proper Seastar fluid.

I live in a smaller town. Turns out no one seemed to know what milspec 5606 or aviation hydraulic fluid was. Had to drive an hour each way to get a gallon for $32. I’ll order another quart online and give this approach a shot.


That price for a gallon of aviation grade hydraulic fluid sounds very good. The TeleFlex-SeaStar branded fluid sells by the quart for about that price or more.

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Re: Hydraulic steering capacity

Postby Dauntless » Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:39 pm

I bought the gallon of aviation for $32 and then another quart of Seastar from Defender for $24.

Guess that’s why a lot of people just use the aviation. I will flush well with that and then replace with the Seastar as they recommend.