1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Optimizing the performance of Boston Whaler boats
suede
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1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby suede » Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:04 am

I'm getting ready to re-power my 1988 OUTRAGE 22 Whaler Drive. I have a deposit down for a Yamaha F300. Give me recommendations for a propeller. I would greatly appreciate any input. Here is some data about the boat performance with its current engine:
  • engine: 2006 E-TEC 200 H.O. about 1,400-hours; I hate this engine
  • boat has a T-TOP, 40 Bait tank, 77 gallon fuel tank, very rough bottom paint
  • REBEL 15-1/2 x 17 3 blade. WOT RPM 5000, about 42-MPH, maybe a little more
  • REVOLUTION4, 4-blade, WOT 6000 RPM, about 42-MPH; I'm currently running this one and it's a vast improvement in ride from the REBEL
  • Average fuel economy: 1.6 to 1.7-MPG witheither propeller—really sucks and primary driver for the re-power
  • rated boat maximum 400-HP.
  • the boat is heavy based on what I have read.

ASIDE ABOUT THE BOAT:
I assume the boat was intended for twin 200's. Interestingly, there is a double binnacle, but no indication on the WD that twins were ever installed. There are NO extra holes. The binnacle was even rigged for twin throttle and shift cables, and trim switch wires, and dual keys--strange. I believe I'm the third owner. My boat-partner and I replaced the original fuel tank about six years ago. The new tank came from the place that did the original tank—cannot recall their name—a place in Florida.We repaired a few rotted spots on deck when I had the deck out for replacement of fuel tank. We rewired everything and pulled out and trashed 300-feet of wire and rigging. We added a 40-gallon bait tank half under the leaning post with plumbing running under the deck. We added a LOWRANCE HDS Gen 3 and recently added the LOWRANCE PilotDrive Autopilot. I love it. We refinished the teak gunwales and rear hatches with varnish—which surprisingly gets a lot of compliments. The console wood is yet to be done.

jimh
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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby jimh » Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:19 am

What was the pitch of the REVOLUTION4 propeller? You did not give that information in your performance data.

Re the Yamaha F300: please tell us the following information about this engine:
  • what is the maximum propeller diameter aperture?
  • what is the gear ratio?
  • what is the recommended full throttle operating engine speed in RPM?
  • what is the engine weight and how much more does it weight than the E-TEC?
  • what is the F300 engine true power output?

My recommendation for propeller brand would lean toward the engine manufacturer, as generally engine-maker branded propellers are premium propellers, have been designed specifically for the engine, and are usually excellent performers.

We can make a rough estimate of the new boat speed based on the horsepower change. I would use 225-HP for the E-TEC. I don't know much about the F300. Does the F300 really make 300-HP? Or is it more like a 285-HP?

The new engine is certain to be heavier, so we have to reduce speed based on more weight. Once we know the weight difference between new and old engine, we can apply that factor to the new speed estimate.

ASIDE ABOUT THE 225 H.O.:
I am surprised that the E-TEC 200 H.O. gets such bad fuel economy. I have a very similar boat, a REVENGE 22 W-T Whaler Drive, and a very similar engine, E-TEC 225, and my average fuel economy is about 3.0-MPH. The H.O. series E-TEC engines were designed for high-speed and light boats. The gear case design was for high speed and the gear ratio was for higher propeller shaft speed. The 200 H.O. was probably not the right choice--as your experience has shown--for a heavy and slower boat.

suede
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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby suede » Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:07 am

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the reply. Please see my answers below:

Oops...missed that on the Rev 4 prop. It's a 14-5/8" x 15p

Re the Yamaha F300: please tell us the following information about this engine:
What is the maximum propeller diameter aperture?

HMM...CAN'T LOCATE THIS INFO. BUT IT'S YAMAHA'S 4.2L V6. I'D EXPECT ITS SOMETHING SIMILAR ALL THE COMPETITION IN THIS CLASS. THE 4.2L HAS A 225, 250, & 300HP MODELS AND NO DIFFERENCES IN DIMENSIONS. I LOOKED AT THE YAM PROP SELECTOR AND THE LARGEST THEY OFFER IN THE SALTWATER SERIES II IS 15-3/4" WHICH IS THE SERIES I EXPECT WOULD BE USED.
What is the gear ratio?
1.75:1
What is the recommended full throttle operating engine speed in RPM?
5000-6000 RPM
What is the engine weight and how much more does it weight than the E-TEC?
DRY WEIGHT = 562 LBS (DIGITAL CONTROLS VERSION), WEIGHT DIFF. = 38 LBS (ETEC SERVICE MANUAL SAYS 524 BUT DOES NOT SPECIFY WET OR DRY, BUT I ASSUME DRY)
What is the F300 engine true power output?
HMM...CAN'T FIND THIS INFO EITHER. DATA SHEET SAYS: PROP SHAFT HP: 300HP @ 5500 RPM. JUST BROWSING THE NET, UNOFFICIAL IS 282PSHP FROM AN EMISSIONS REPORT BUT IT'S NOT CONFIRMED.


A little additional info:
E-TEC is mounted second to last hole up (e.g. it can go only one hole higher),

Boat is used in Southern California ocean only, inshore and offshore fishing (although inshore is deep, not like east coast. Rarely gets shallower than 15-20 ft).

I have never had complaints about the power, getting out of the hole, or speed. It's usually too choppy to run very fast, and WOT is extremely rare. With the increase in hp, I expect my cruise speed will increase which I have no complaints about. BTW, current cruise (sorry, this is off memory), in decent conditions is ~27 mph, ~4100 rpm, 1.7-1.8 mpg.

The REVOLUTION4 made a big difference in trim angle which really improved the hull re-entry angle into the water, softening things up. I hoped for improved mileage when I got it, but the improvement in ride was worth it. I give up on fuel mileage. I've read a lot of stuff you've written on this site regarding your boat and jaw drop when I see the mileage you get. I just don't get it, but it is what it is.

ASIDE: off topic, my rigging channel pump and fish hold pump (center floor hold) both pump into my bilge, and an automatic pump pumps it out thru a small thru-hull. Is this how you have yours set up? I don't like how mine is and am looking for ideas. Maybe do the same as the thru hull for bilge but I don't particularly want to core out the foam like the one there is done (e.g. the inner hull layer, and foam have been removed so the thru hull clamps on only the outer skin of the hull, I presume it's the same on yours).

Thanks.

jimh
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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby jimh » Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:00 am

Re increase in speed. I will estimate as follows:

The horsepower will increase to 282 from 225. This is a ratio of 282/225 = 1.25

The engine weight difference is marginal, only 40-lbs on a boat that weights over 4,000-lbs. This is a ratio of 4040/4000=1.01

The net change in power to weight ratio is then 1.25/1.01=1.24.

The boat speed will change by a factor of 1.24^0.5 = 1.11

If the present top speed is 42-MPH, expect the top speed with the F300 to increase to 42 x 1.11 = 46.5-MPH

Assuming the F300 can accelerate to the upper range of its recommended operating range, I will use 5,700-RPM as a target engine speed.

There is now enough information to compute a target propeller pitch using a propeller calculator:

RPM = 5700
RATIO = 1.75
PITCH = to be calculated
SLIP = 10 (assumed)
MPH = 46.5 (estimated target)

PITCH calculates to 16.75.

This suggests a first-trial propeller for testing should be a three-blade propeller with diameter near the maximum permitted in the propeller aperture and a pitch of 17-inches.

If the maximum propeller aperture on the F300 is limited to 16-inches, then you should try the MIRAGEplus 17-pitch and the REVOLUTION4 15-pitch. A new FLO-TORQ hub kit will probably be needed to fit these Mercury propeller to the Yamaha propeller shaft.

The REVOLUTION4 propeller takes a lot of horsepower to turn. The 15-pitch may work very nicely with the F300.

jimh
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Re: Pump Arrangement on REVENGE 22 W-T WD

Postby jimh » Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:05 am

ASIDE on pumps:

There are only two pumps on my REVENGE 22 W-T WD boat. There is the standard RULE centrifugal pump in the Starboard cockpit sump. This pump exhausts overboard via a through-hull fitting above the water line. For the aft cockpit fish well I have installed a small RULE centrifugal pump. This pump exhausts overboard by having its output hose routed into the 4-inch-diameter through-hull drain in the transom that exits aft toward the Whaler Drive. I keep the aft cockpit fish well drain plugged. The pump is almost never used. Water accumulates in the aft cockpit fish well only due to heavy rains that might eventually saturate the cockpit cover, or if it happens to rain hard while the boat is in the water. I installed the pump after one particularly rainy night that we were spending aboard. In the morning I awoke to find the aft cockpit fish well was filled to the brim with rain water that flowed in from the cockpit deck. Since that event, all gear stored in the well is stored in waterproof boxes or is gear that can get wet, like boat fenders.

jcush87
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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby jcush87 » Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:52 am

Curious why you hate your 1400 hour E-ETEC? is it the engine itself having trouble, or was it a poor match to the hull?

Its pretty odd that you are getting such a huge difference in MPG compared to jimh. I would expect the opposite result. Do you carry a large amount of weight? Is the hull dirty/rough? Is the hull bottom straight? Have you tried moving the motor all the way up? Do you trim the motor up and see any differences in efficiency? Are the numbers you have provided pushing through rough waters with the bow down (motor trim and possibly trim tabs?)

The E-TEC should be a fairly efficient motor, it is likely that the Yamaha would have similar MPG problems if an underlying problem isn't found.

biggiefl
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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby biggiefl » Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:14 am

You better tend to that "rough bottom" or you are just throwing away money on fuel.
On my 24th Whaler. Currently in the stable: 86 18' Outrage, 81 13' Sport(original owner), 87 11' Sport, 69 Squall(for sale cheap).

suede
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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby suede » Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:31 pm

jcush87 wrote:Curious why you hate your 1400 hour E-ETEC?

I agree the difference in fuel economy is drastic. I've posted questions on here and elsewhere wondering if my hull is waterlogged or something making it super heavy, but based on feedback based on info I supplied, such as top speed, folks don't agree I'm waterlogged.

I am the second owner of the E-TEC.

I hate the poor fuel mileage.

Since I got it, I have had to deal with quite a few additional problems. Granted, some were problems that Evinrude addressed like the Injector deflector pins, which caused stalling at idle rpm. That was solved after quite some time but there have been other things. Things I've dealt with or still dealing with:

--replaced fuel pump lift pump,
--replaced trim/tilt actuator,
--third EMM on the engine.

About the first two problems I am not sure [of the cause].

The third [problem, th EMM appears to have been caused by] a short in the wiring harness that shorted to the engine block.

Other problems:

0verheating at low RPM--still dealing with this. I have replaced [the water pump] impeller many times, replaced thermostats two times, replaced the [Pressure Release Valve] with a newer Evinrude re-design. But I can't find the problem. [Engine overheating at low speed] and it takes out the possibility of trolling while fishing,

--I hate the rough running and heavy vibration at the about 1800-RPM where the EMM does something.

--[speculates there are or were even more problems with the E-TEC that cannot be recalled]

In regards to your comment about switching to Yamaha but may have similar MPG problems, I somewhat concur. But I think it's something with the engine. The fuel economy has sort of made me obsessive watching. I can read my fuel consumption as it comes directly from the EMM via NMEA-2000 to my display. I'm constantly playing with trim to optimize [fuel economy]. I'll tell you I've NEVER even seen it bounce off 2-MPG at cruise. Best is 1.9-MPG, but only momentarily bounces off that, and runs at an average of 1.7-MPG at cruise

Engine mounting height has been adjusted where the top of the anti-[ventilation] plate is visible while running. Engine height [was described ambiguously--possibly meant two-holes-up]. The hull bottom is straight. The bottom paint is admittedly terrible but based on what I've read, it can't be affecting MPG by 60-percent or more.

suede
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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby suede » Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:34 pm

I in fact hate this motor so much that my repower will be with the grey Yamaha because their White reminds me too much of the E-TEC.

Don SSDD
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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby Don SSDD » Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:15 am

We’ll be curious to see your results when you repower.

I have always said everyone makes a lemon once in a while, many boat owners love their etecs, you likely have a lemon by the sounds of things.
1986 Outrage 18 with 2001 Honda 130 HP
Former Owner 1991 Guardian 19 with 1994 Evinrude V4 140HP
Former owner 1987 Montauk with 1998 Mercury 90HP
Nova Scotia

jimh
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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby jimh » Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:33 am

ASIDE ON THE NEW TOPIC OF E-TEC ENGINE FUEL ECONOMY AND GENERAL UTILITY:

Owning a c.2006 E-TEC is much like owning a first-generation c.2004 VERADO—you got an early engine which in later production received many improvements.

Mercury came out with second-generation VERADO engines with improved fuel economy, dry sump oiling, revised spark plug coils, new fuel-vapor and fuel pumps, and other tweaks based on problems with their earlier engines in c.2007. Fuel economy was still a major complaint so Mercury developed special propellers just for the VERADO (the ENERTIA and ENERTIA ECO).

The 3.3-liter V6 E-TEC 200 H.O.engine in model year 2006 was a very early model in that block size and horsepower range. During its later production many changes were made to the 3.3 and 3.4-liter V6 E-TEC engines. I wouldn’t draw inferences from a 2006 model year and apply them to all 3.3-liter or 3.4-liter E-TEC engines.

Overall fuel economy depends upon the engine speed ranges. At lower throttle settings an E-TEC may have the best fuel economic of any engine due to the stratified charge design of the combustion. At low speed operation my E-TEC delivers 10-MPG fuel economy. An engine HISTORY REPORT will show the engine speed ranges and durations. For my engine over half the running time is below 2,000-RPM. Literally NO TIME is spent in the engine speed range between 1,500 and 2,000-RPM. That engine speed range only occurs when the engine is accelerating as the boat speed increases to planing speed. The E-TEC engine shifts to homogenous charge from stratified charge in that range. For most boats the engine will never run in that range.

I am sure if a first-generation VERADO 200 were running solo on an OUTRAGE 22 Whaler Drive there would be complaints about fuel economy.

biggiefl
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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby biggiefl » Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:51 am

I thought the 22 WD was rated for 300hp with the standard transom @ 240.
On my 24th Whaler. Currently in the stable: 86 18' Outrage, 81 13' Sport(original owner), 87 11' Sport, 69 Squall(for sale cheap).

jimh
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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby jimh » Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:48 pm

jcush87 wrote:...odd that you are getting such a huge difference in MPG compared to jimh.


Possible factors:

1) a c.2006 E-TEC was an early model and the fuel map used a richer fuel-air ratio at high engine speeds because the designers wanted to be certain the cylinders would not be running at all lean. Lean fuel-air mix leads to very rapid heating of the cylinder. Some extra fuel that is not burned helps to carry away heat. The same situation was likely occurring in the early VERADO engines. The designers wanted plenty of fuel at high throttle for the same reasons. Both Mercury and Evinrude likely changed the fuel map to become less rich at high throttle based on results in the field with their engines and also in response to customer complaints about fuel economy.

2) in Evinrude E-TEC lingo the designator H.O. refers to high-output which is elaborated to mean tuned for maximum power. E-TEC H.O. engines are intended for really fast high-speed bass boats or race boats which would typically run at speeds above 50-MPH or even higher. The typical application would not be in a boat that cruises under 30-MPH. The tuning for maximum power may also have the effect of sacrifice of fuel economy. Owners of really fast boats always tell you the boat’s top speed—they never brag about the boat’s fuel economy.

For example, at the ramp recently I was admiring a very nice 36-foot narrow, deep-Vee go-fast boat. I told the owner something like, “Hey—nice boat.”

The proud owner immediately responded by telling me the sterndrive had 675-HP, the boat went 83-MPH, and the propeller pitch was 29-inch. But not a word about fuel economy.

3) my 2010 E-TEC 225 has a different gear case that c.2006 H.O. models. My E-TEC has a straight leading edge (SLE) MAGNUM gear case. The shape of the bullet, the water pick-up locations, and the internal bearings and gears are different. And the gear ratio itself is also likely different.

Although my 225 is pushing an identical hull, the REVENGE models tend to have more weight and more weight in the bow. But the two E-TEC engines are not really identical.

suede
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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby suede » Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:11 pm

biggiefl wrote:I thought the 22 WD was rated for 300hp with the standard transom @ 240.


I’ve found several threads on this subject and the conclusion is that over the years, Boston Whalerchanges the horsepower capacity on these boats. For WD fitted boat, they went from 300 to 400 to 450-HP—or something like that. I thought mine was rated for 300-HP and was pleasantly surprised when I saw the 400-HP.

A boat parking neighbor has a 22 Guardian WD and he has a 350 Yamaha V8– big beast on the back of that thing.

Acseatsri
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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby Acseatsri » Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:42 pm

From my experience, you are probably losing 3 to 4-MPH if the bottom is as rough as you describe. You'd be amazed how much that is costing you.

The 40 gallon bait tank near the stern isn't helping any either. I had a 26 gallon bait tank in front of the console along with two batteries in the console and a big T-Top on a 1987 Outrage 22 (regular transom) with a 2006 E-TEC 225-HP. I used to get almost 3-MPG running fairly light at about 28-MPH with a 17-pitch REBEL propeller.

The engine threw a rod at 1100 hours. Of the group at my marina, I had the highest number of hours before throwing a rod. Most were between 6-800 hours.

I agree with [advice about],the 4-blade propeller.

You may also try a Powertech OFS4 prop. Quite a bit cheaper and 5/8-inch bigger in diameter. I have a 17-pitch on my 250 Honda on my 1993 23 WA. I get around 3-MPG at 28-MPH depending on load. The 23 WA boat planes at slower speeds—great when running offshore.

I've put these on two other boats at my marina (23 Regulator, 22 Grady) with similar results, not so much in the fuel mileage but the performance improvements are good.

You might also look at Suzuki 300—a little cheaper.

I have a friend with a pair that he's been running for 2 years with almost 600 hours now with absolutely no problems. They replaced two 2014 unreliable 250 Etecs with 800 hours. Either way, you can't go wrong with either brand. Expect at least a 15% improvement in fuel mileage, as both engines now have oxygen sensors.

But GET THAT BOTTOM CLEAN

suede
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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby suede » Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:59 pm

Acseatsri wrote:From my experience...



Good info. Thank you,

I plan on working on that bottom paint. Plan is to do that when we take her apart for the repower. We started chiseling the loose thick sections when we go down to the harbor and have a couple coldies. Previous owner did a lousy job and it looks like several coats were on there.


As for the propeller I'll probably stick with a Yamaha one that they say their SDS system (cushion or damper in the prop) makes shifting nice and quiet, absorbing the typical clunk.

I also want that since the Yamaha just came out with an updated Helm Master system where the binnacle has throttle control buttons (in addition to the lever) that allow you to reduce speed slower than idle by kicking in and out of gear. Yamaha claims you can slow troll down to .5 mph (in calm conditions).

The buttons also allow fine tuning of throttle in 50 rpm increments which seems like a nice feature when running long offshore and tweaking speed a bit, along with programmable trim settings dependent on rpm.

I don't plan on the full on helm master with joystick, just the new binnacle. It's super new but it sounds like the full up system is somewhere in the $10,000 to $15,000 price range. It will be a nice feature with my newly added autopilot.

Auto pilot was one of those upgrades that goes into the "how did i live without it" category. Love those ones.

Small skiff AP is admirable. Now when idling thru the harbor, I can walk around and secure things and such without the boat doing circles.

My bait tank is partway under the leaning post so it's decently forward I'd say. It in fact makes the boat sit slightly bow down compared to what it was based on looking at the waterline relative to the bottom paint—but just barely.

I presume the slightly heavier Yamaha will balance it out, although I will be getting rid of the oil tank in the stern hatch.

Sounds like you and your group have had a tough time with the E-TEC engines.

Acseatsri
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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby Acseatsri » Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:45 pm

The Powertech is available with a cushion-lok hub. I have it, does the same thing. But I would stay with the 4 blade due to its stern lifting properties. And I think it holds plane better at lower speeds, very desirable when running 100 plus miles offshore.

Agree with you on the AP, I have one too. A lot of my group makes 100+ mile canyon runs, sometimes several times a week during tuna time, so it's not unusual to see 2 year old motors with over 600 hours on them. Most people here are lucky to log 50 hours a year, so the Etec problems haven't reared their ugly heads yet. It's a moot point now as new Etec motors have become extinct. Most of the offshore guys have already replaced the Etecs with either yammies or zukis. I like my 250 Honda, but I wish they'd come up with a higher horsepower model.

The sweet spot on the yammie should be about 4200 rpm. My friend just replaced a 2010 F250 with 2800 hours on it with a new 300 on a 23 Parker. Got about 10% better mileage. Nothing wrong with it, just was nervous of the high hours. There are boats there with over 4000 hours on them, but that seems to be the point where things start to happen.

jimh
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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby jimh » Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:51 am

The thread seems to be collecting anecdotal bad outcomes that happened to third parties: here is another anecdotal bad outcome to a third party, in this case with the engine that is the topic of this thread, a Yamaha F300:

“We Blew up a $30,000 Yamaha 300 Motor”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zraU6e9T2EA

biggiefl
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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby biggiefl » Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:31 am

How did they blow up a $30k F300, they don't cost $30k. If they do, I can get a 300 Suzuki installed for under $20k.
On my 24th Whaler. Currently in the stable: 86 18' Outrage, 81 13' Sport(original owner), 87 11' Sport, 69 Squall(for sale cheap).

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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby jimh » Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:14 am

NICK--reach out to the youTube author of the account of the failure of the F300 for more information. Like the other third-parties who had engine problems, that engine owner is not participating in this thread. When third-party experiences are cited, there is no way to inquire with the third parties about what happened. That is the nature of throwing out random anecdotal experiences of other people who are not participating in a discussion. You cannot ask them questions.

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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby jimh » Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:28 am

suede wrote:...Things I've dealt with or still dealing with:
--replaced fuel pump lift pump...
The fuel lift pump has been in use for decades; it is very proven design. Use of fuel with high alcohol content or use of fuel treatments with various alcohols or nalthas may have damaged it;
suede wrote:replaced trim/tilt actuator...
I do not recall hearing much about problems with the power trim system. Saltwater use for 1,400-hours and 14-years can alway take a toll on them.
suede wrote:--third EMM on the engine.
This is a staggering amount of failure. Clearly whatever was causing the failure was never addressed properly. Evinrude reported that a majority of EMM's returned to them under warranty as "failed" were actually not failed and could be restored with a reload of firmware. In general, EMM failures are related to high EMM temperatures, which occur with insufficient engine cooling, or to poor installation and wiring practices, which result in momentary open circuits or short circuits.
suede wrote:The third [problem,the EMM appears to have been caused by] a short in the wiring harness that shorted to the engine block.
Poor rigging often causes abrasion in wiring harnesses. I don't think this is endemic in an E-TEC.
suede wrote:Other problems:...0verheating at low RPM...I have replaced [the water pump] impeller many times

Problems with poor water pressure at idle speed are overcome by proper procedure in installation of the water pump impeller. The proper procedure locks the impeller vertical position and creates much improved water pressure at low engine speeds. My E-TEC had a tendency to have engine temperature climb after extended low-speed operation--perhaps an hour. Refitting a new impeller with the correct installation procedure completely cured the problem.
suede wrote:replaced the [Pressure Release Valve] with a newer Evinrude re-design. But I can't find the problem. [Engine overheating at low speed] and it takes out the possibility of trolling while fishing.
The Pressure Relief Valve is available in different spring tensions so that greater water flow cooling occurs sooner, that is, at lower water pressure. But this variation is generally not needed if the water pump is working correctly. Other contributors to low water pressure are high engine mounting, failure to use larger water pick-up screens, aerated water--particularly a problem with boats like a Whaler Drive which produces a large amount of aerated water coming off the Whaler Drive. Aerated water does not provide effective cooling.
suede wrote:I hate the rough running and heavy vibration at the about 1800-RPM where the EMM does something.
The engine transitions to homogenous charge from stratified charge about that engine speed. Curiously, I was just out running in some high winds and high seas, and had to run my E-TEC at 1,800-RPM for a stretch of rough water. I did not notice any harshness or vibration.
suede wrote:[speculates there are or were even more problems with the E-TEC that cannot be recalled]
I speculate you might be exaggerating.

As the second-owner, you probably are not aware of exactly how the original owner installed or ran the engine.

I am confused if the purpose of this thread is get advice on a propeller or to indulge in a slagging of the E-TEC. The E-TEC seems to be an engine that people love to bash. Since you cannot buy any new ones now, maybe the bashers will finally give up and celebrate victory.

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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby Acseatsri » Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:44 am

I wasn't a third party when my 225 Etec threw a rod at 1100 hours. I have quite a few friends whose Etecs have thrown rods at far less hours. Just recently an Etec 135HO at my dock threw a rod at 780 hours. The service shop where it's at has four of them waiting for new powerheads. So yes, I have firsthand knowledge of quite a few Etecs blowing up at relatively low hours. Most of the offshore guys I know log well over 200 plus hours a year, so the problems show their ugly heads at a relatively young age. How many hours do you have on your Etec, Jim?

No engine is perfect. 2003-2007 Yamaha 225's had corrosion problems, to the point of the bottom of the crankcase rotting out. Yamaha did nothing other than sell parts at their cost. The F350's have to change the flywheel at a certain number of hours at a specific rpm, otherwise they're in danger of the flywheel letting go. My Honda eats a $300 oxygen sensor every 150 hours or so, just had to buy the first one myself as the warranty has run out. My mechanic swears by Suzuki, hasn't seen any major problems, other than the 350.

Best advice I can give (from my mechanic) is if you want an engine to last, keep the rpms under 4500 as much as you can.

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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby Acseatsri » Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:47 am

biggiefl wrote:How did they blow up a $30k F300, they don't cost $30k. If they do, I can get a 300 Suzuki installed for under $20k.

Actually, they do cost pretty close to 30k. My friend's repower cost $27k last year without new controls. Add sales tax and you're close to 30k.

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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby biggiefl » Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:58 pm

"Best advice I can give (from my mechanic) is if you want an engine to last, keep the rpms under 4500 as much as you can."

I have always read that for best longevity of an outboard is to keep the rpms at 75% or less at cruise. With a 6k redline(probably the most common) 4500rpm is 75%.

My friend put a white 30" 2017 DF300 Suzuki on his 23 sea Craft with drive by wire controls, SS prop, gauges, wiring harness, key switch, and installation for just over $17k+ tax. No way is a Yamagucci worth a $10k premium in my eyes, especially with their lack of recall support.
On my 24th Whaler. Currently in the stable: 86 18' Outrage, 81 13' Sport(original owner), 87 11' Sport, 69 Squall(for sale cheap).

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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby suede » Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:20 pm

Jim,

I appreciate your defending of the E-TEC but it's just not for me (and apparently a lot of other people). I presume if they were better, they would still be making them.


jimh wrote:
suede wrote:...Things I've dealt with or still dealing with:
--replaced fuel pump lift pump...
The fuel lift pump has been in use for decades; it is very proven design. Use of fuel with high alcohol content or use of fuel treatments with various alcohols or nalthas may have damaged it;

Maybe those things damaged it but that's all conjecture. Lots of gas have those things and bad on Evinrude for making something that can't handle pump gas if that's the case. The pump died at around 600 hrs.

suede wrote:replaced trim/tilt actuator...
I do not recall hearing much about problems with the power trim system. Saltwater use for 1,400-hours and 14-years can alway take a toll on them.

Died at about 700hrs, around circa 2012.

suede wrote:--third EMM on the engine.
This is a staggering amount of failure. Clearly whatever was causing the failure was never addressed properly. Evinrude reported that a majority of EMM's returned to them under warranty as "failed" were actually not failed and could be restored with a reload of firmware. In general, EMM failures are related to high EMM temperatures, which occur with insufficient engine cooling, or to poor installation and wiring practices, which result in momentary open circuits or short circuits.
suede wrote:The third [problem,the EMM appears to have been caused by] a short in the wiring harness that shorted to the engine block.
Poor rigging often causes abrasion in wiring harnesses. I don't think this is endemic in an E-TEC.

Well the EMM was dead as tested by my local Evinrude shop and also the factory as the sent it back. As for the poor rigging, the chafed, shorted wire was part of the engine wiring harness under the cowling that comes off the EMM on one of the connectors. This wiring was all done by Evinrude, it wasn't separate rigging. So I'd say it was an Evinrude problem.

suede wrote:Other problems:...0verheating at low RPM...I have replaced [the water pump] impeller many times

Problems with poor water pressure at idle speed are overcome by proper procedure in installation of the water pump impeller. The proper procedure locks the impeller vertical position and creates much improved water pressure at low engine speeds. My E-TEC had a tendency to have engine temperature climb after extended low-speed operation--perhaps an hour. Refitting a new impeller with the correct installation procedure completely cured the problem.

Evinrude recommends servicing the water pump at 300 hrs. I was doing it about every 80 hours. Always replaced the entire assembly, not just the impeller. I've done it myself with help from the Service Manual, and also I've paid an Evinrude master tech to do it at a recognized shop. No improvement.

suede wrote:replaced the [Pressure Release Valve] with a newer Evinrude re-design. But I can't find the problem. [Engine overheating at low speed] and it takes out the possibility of trolling while fishing.
The Pressure Relief Valve is available in different spring tensions so that greater water flow cooling occurs sooner, that is, at lower water pressure. But this variation is generally not needed if the water pump is working correctly. Other contributors to low water pressure are high engine mounting, failure to use larger water pick-up screens, aerated water--particularly a problem with boats like a Whaler Drive which produces a large amount of aerated water coming off the Whaler Drive. Aerated water does not provide effective cooling.

Why would I or Evinrude require to use a different pickup screen? That would be ridiculous for a manufacturer to design a motor like that. In regards to the aerated water and whaler drive, you have a WD, do you see any problems? I think I'm set at the same hole height as you if I recall correctly. But also, the overheating occurs at low RPM, not while on plane. The only air is the exhaust coming thru the prop at that speed.

suede wrote:I hate the rough running and heavy vibration at the about 1800-RPM where the EMM does something.
The engine transitions to homogenous charge from stratified charge about that engine speed. Curiously, I was just out running in some high winds and high seas, and had to run my E-TEC at 1,800-RPM for a stretch of rough water. I did not notice any harshness or vibration.

It's quite apparent in my motor. Not sure what else can be said. I guess it's all subjective.

suede wrote:[speculates there are or were even more problems with the E-TEC that cannot be recalled]
I speculate you might be exaggerating.

No speculation...I have also had to replace 2 injectors and a crank position sensor.

As the second-owner, you probably are not aware of exactly how the original owner installed or ran the engine.

I can see all the rigging. I got a nice, up close look at all of it when I replaced the fuel tank and re-wired the boat. Nothing all that complicated. A harness comes out of the motor and connects to the gauges. And then the throttle/shift cables. Couple of battery cables, fuel line, oil line. So I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here. What do you suppose could be done that would cause this much grief?

I am confused if the purpose of this thread is get advice on a propeller or to indulge in a slagging of the E-TEC. The E-TEC seems to be an engine that people love to bash. Since you cannot buy any new ones now, maybe the bashers will finally give up and celebrate victory.


It was for the prop but I do find value in hearing about others with problems, solidifying my thoughts on the motor. I'm in debate of selling it when I take it off or just sending it to the junkyard so as to not put anyone else thru the pain of an E-TEC. It might be worth the mental comfort to do that rather than the $2000 or so I think I might be able to get for it. :)
Last edited by suede on Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby suede » Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:22 pm

jimh wrote:The thread seems to be collecting anecdotal bad outcomes that happened to third parties: here is another anecdotal bad outcome to a third party, in this case with the engine that is the topic of this thread, a Yamaha F300:

“We Blew up a $30,000 Yamaha 300 Motor”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zraU6e9T2EA



The video shows it was something with the lower unit, at under a year old is what I think I heard. At least it was under warranty and a failure so early tells me it was a freak thing. As far as I know, Yamaha's have a very good reputation for reliability.

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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby Duckmanreno » Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:32 pm

Negative information seems to come out first .
I see it on a duck hunting site I belong to. A problem with a expensive jacket, gun etc. A large number of people have good success/happy with something but the focus is on the negative. Human nature I guess.
1974 Montuak
2021 Yamaha F70

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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby jimh » Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:36 pm

suede wrote:The video shows it was something with the lower unit, at under a year old is what I think I heard. At least it was under warranty and a failure so early tells me it was a freak thing. As far as I know, Yamaha's have a very good reputation for reliability.


It is too bad the E-TEC problems took years and hundreds of hours to show up. If the E-TEC problems had occurred right away you could have used the same logic you just applied to the F300 to dismiss them as “a freak thing.”

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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby suede » Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:12 pm

jimh wrote:
suede wrote:The video shows it was something with the lower unit, at under a year old is what I think I heard. At least it was under warranty and a failure so early tells me it was a freak thing. As far as I know, Yamaha's have a very good reputation for reliability.


It is too bad the E-TEC problems took years and hundreds of hours to show up. If the E-TEC problems had occurred right away you could have used the same logic you just applied to the F300 to dismiss them as “a freak thing.”



Certainly true. But when’s there 10 “freak things”, I start to reconsider how “freak” they are. And as a second owner, I got the problems right off the bat. Example, the first two EMM’s were done by the previous owner. I only learned that when the 3rd went out under my watch, so something was up with it. And to be honest, I don’t even know the real hours on the motor because the EMM was so fried. The factory couldn’t get that data off it so they reset the new one to the hours that were on it on the previous EMM replacement which I know there is AT LEAST a 400 hours difference. Probably more like 600 hrs. I tried to tell the tech to put a number into it that was my best guesstimate but he didn’t. I can “technically” sell this motor as an 800 hr motor, but I wouldn’t. Bad juju. Now that I think about it, I wonder how many etec’s are out there with fudged hours. Who knows what the previous owner dealt with. But I appreciate your input.

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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby Acseatsri » Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:14 pm

""It was for the prop but I do find value in hearing about others with problems, solidifying my thoughts on the motor. I'm in debate of selling it when I take it off or just sending it to the junkyard so as to not put anyone else thru the pain of an E-TEC. It might be worth the mental comfort to do that rather than the $2000 or so I think I might be able to get for it. :)""

It's probably worth that much in parts. And parts are really hard to get right now, not just Etec, but pretty much every manufacturer. Those used parts will help some poor soul whose summer has been ruined waiting for parts. The trim sensor on my Honda(circa 2013) just went away, 3 week back order, but at least they had the oxygen sensor in stock.

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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby Acseatsri » Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:13 pm

suede wrote:
jimh wrote:
suede wrote:The video shows it was something with the lower unit, at under a year old is what I think I heard. At least it was under warranty and a failure so early tells me it was a freak thing. As far as I know, Yamaha's have a very good reputation for reliability.


It is too bad the E-TEC problems took years and hundreds of hours to show up. If the E-TEC problems had occurred right away you could have used the same logic you just applied to the F300 to dismiss them as “a freak thing.”


Not completely true. All the high hour offshore guys knew. My mechanic knew years ago by the number of powerheads he replaced. I would think that if Bombardier had thoroughly tested these motors, they should have seen the same thing. Maybe they took a calculated risk. No one will ever know.

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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby jimh » Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:04 am

If all E-TEC engines went through three EMM assemblies, continually over-heated at idle speed operation, had defective fuel lift pumps, needed water pump service at 80-hour intervals, had power trim and tilt failures, and generally caused their owners to have extreme anxiety every time they left the dock until the engine catastrophically failed by sending a connecting rod through the aluminum block casting, then that Evinrude could make such a lousy product for 17-years and perpetually deceive the boating public is amazing.

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Re: 1988 Outrage 22 WD Re-power Yamaha F300

Postby jimh » Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:09 pm

suede wrote:I appreciate your defending of the E-TEC but it's just not for me...


I am just commenting about the problems you have described and my general knowledge of their causes. To me the fundamentals problem you have had with the E-TEC seems to have been poor cooling. Apparently this was never resolved.

With the 3.3-liter E-TEC the overboard confidence stream orifice MUST be in place. If the orifice is removed for attaching a flush hose and not reinstalled, the engine cooling system will be completely screwed up, far too much water will be lost overboard, and the engine will overheat. This $9 plastic nozzle is absolutely essential to proper cooling. Something like this could be the root cause of all your cooling problems.

When engines run too warm bad things happen. All engines dislike running overheated—not just ones made by Evinrude.

The EMM depends on water cooling. Lack of water cooling means the EMM runs too hot. All electronic devices hate running too hot, not just ones made by Evinrude.

Your report that the on-engine wiring harness as installed by Evinrude was chafed and abraded seems very odd. It may be related to the harsh vibrations and rough running you also report. All wires can be damaged if subjected to vibrations and abrasions. As far as I know there has never been a service bulletin published about factory on-engine wiring harnesses failing due to vibrations and causing direct shorts to the engine block. I would put your engine’s occurrence into the “freak” category.

I would not say that an early 3.3-liter E-TEC (c.2006) was perfect. There were many production changes over the years, which I am sure were a result of experience in the field in varying conditions. I have a 2010 model year 3.3-liter and there were some significant changes that Evinrude made in 2011 and newer models that I would have liked to have on my engine.

Another big difference in our experience is I got a new engine, not a used engine. My engine was installed by an expert dealer. The dealer and I collaborated on the rigging. The fuel used has always been top grade. The oil used has always been XD100—the premium lubricant. The engine has always had timely service by expert trained and experienced technicians.

My E-TEC In in its 12th season and has about 575-hours, averaging about 50-hours a season. I have published a comprehensive history of all maintenance work done on it, almost entirely routine other than one exhaust passage part which seems to run too hot, which I attribute to the very high engine mounting height on the Whaler Drive and all the aerated water created by the stepped-hull design that results from the Whaler Drive.