Losing Electrical Power to Helm Console

[islavov]

On 2004 Nantucket 190 with an Optimax 135-HP engine the electronics flickered and everything restarted (Two garmins and VHF), while boat under way cruising. Engine did not hesitate at all when it happened, the gauges (I think the one on the right) showed Fuel Level Fault. I stopped instantaneously, on neutral, and then shut off the engine. I checked all my battery connections first - two batteries, all terminals are greased and tight. Moved to the second battery, electronics started, started engine, and continued along. Shortly, it flickered again, so it is not a battery concern. I went to my primary battery, made sure caught my limit :), and headed to the dock. No failures for at least five or six restarts and during a five-mile cruise to dock. When at the dock, and it had gotten darker, i noticed electronics flicker when i raised the engine. I have this USB dongle plugged in on the dash that reads voltage, and at that point it read 6-7 volts.

I took out the boat. At home nothing would turn on when I turn the battery switch on, but i would be able to tilt the engine, I lower it to flush it. And i had to leave it in this state for the day. Two days later, I went with my volt meter, and initially could see it in the state where nothing would turn on, at that state I put the key in and turned it to hear the beep, the two Smartcraft gauges would come on and would say "Fuel Level Fault", fish finders wont start (they usually start automatically), the USB dongle was not even lid up. I measured the power on the fuse panel, and I could see the 6v reading.

I moved switch to ON OFF, and was measuring around, and it somehow went to normal state, the USB device showed 12.6v, the electronics start, and I can't get it to read the 6volts anymore. When i turn the key to beep, gauges look normal, and it shows fuel remaining.

Could a bad fuel level sensor cause this?

If battery switch is bad, and it disconnected on its own, how is my alternator not blown?
Aactually i have to check this, I have not tried starting it to measure voltage, I know when engine is running I see 14-Volts on the USB device. I can and will test this.

I ordered me a new battery switch and will try that first, will take old one (Perko 8501) apart to see its contacts. I am hoping i see rust, if not then I dont know what to do.

Give me any tips [about the source of the problem].

--Ivan

[Moderator's note; combined two threads on same topic]

[islavov]

I am dealing with [what has been inferred to mean a loss of electrical power to the helm console]. I notice a [SONAR] device and a VHF [Marine Band radio] reset while [the boat is underway at some unspecified] speed. Also I noticed a fuel level fault at the same time. [The occurrences of these resets and faults] is intermittent, and when [the electrical system is] back to normal, the fuel level fault is gone.

I have ordered a new battery switch and hoping this is the problem.

Q1: If [a intermittent connection in the primary battery power switch] was indeed [the cause of] the problem [of loss of electrical power at the helm], then while [the existing battery] switch disconnected [the battery from the engine], why was the alternator in the engine not damaged?

I did not run the engine longer [than some other period of time that is not specified] when the dash had no power, but I am sure [the duration of time that the engine was run when the dash had no power] was more than two seconds, [and] maybe [the engine ran for more] like 20 to 30 seconds. If the battery switch was open--basically cutting power--then [this disconnection of the battery] could possibly have damaged [the outboard engine's] alternator.

I don't know what to think.

Even if I install new switch, I can never be certain that [the old switch] was the problem; this bothers me.

I will break apart the old [battery switch, a] PERKO 8501, to see its contacts. I hope I see rust [on the contacts of the old battery switch]. [If I see rust on the contacts of the old battery switch] that will give me some confidence that i have fixed the problem [of losing electrical power to the helm].

[islavov]

[Citing comments made in another thread in which there was a loss of electrical power to the helm console]

Interestingly, the outboard engine has started every time [the helm console has lost electrical power].

This observation is useful information. The inference drawn from this behavior is that the electrical circuits related to the engine and the operation of the engine cranking motor are not affected when the helm power is lost. This suggests that the cause of the loss of helm power is not located in the engine start circuit.

I guess this would eliminate the battery as being the culprit, would it not?.

[jimh]

[Citing comments made in another thread in which there was a loss of electrical power to the helm console]

Interestingly, the outboard engine has started every time [the helm console has lost electrical power].

This observation is useful information. The inference drawn from this behavior is that the electrical circuits related to the engine and the operation of the engine cranking motor are not affected when the helm power is lost. This suggests that the cause of the loss of helm power is not located in the engine start circuit.

I guess, this would eliminate the battery as being the culprit, would not it.

In that other case, yes. The comment was made before you joined that thread and changed the topic.

[Because the topic was changed, the above articles have been separated from the original topic and made to be their own independent topic.--Moderator]

[jimh]

Q1: If [a intermittent connection in the primary battery power switch] was indeed [the cause of] the problem [of loss of electrical power at the helm], then while [the existing battery] switch disconnected [the battery from the engine], why was the alternator in the engine not damaged?

The design of the particular alternator determines if loss of a connection to the 12-Volt battery that is to be charged by the alternator represents a harmful condition.

For example, many outboard engines have an alternator which produces electrical power, but the engine operates without any battery attached to its electrical circuits. Engines with this type of alternator generally have a permanent-magnet alternator (PMA). A permanent-magnet alternator does not need to have a battery connected to it in order to generate electrical current. Another name for a PMA is magneto.

The alternative to a PMA is a field-excited alternator, which needs a battery attached to it in order to create the initial flow of electrical current in its field winding. A field-excited alternator is more like an amplifier, as it converts the mechanical energy that is rotating the rotor windings into a stronger electrical current that was flowing in the field winding. Whether or not a field-excited alternator will be harmed if there is no battery attached is not precisely known to me, as it depends on the design of the alternator.

Your narrative seems to suggest that the engine continued to operate while during the time that there was a loss of electrical power at the helm. This suggests two possibilies:

1. if the engine was also being disconnected from the battery, it was able to operate without a battery connected, so its power generation would likely be from a PMA, or
2. the engine does not have a PMA, and the fact the engine was able to keep running indicates the engine was NOT disconnected from the battery.

If we assume case A, then the engine must have a PMA.

If we assume case B, then there never was any worry about harm to the alternator because the battery was never disconnected.

In general, the electrical problem that is to be avoided by a sudden disconnection of an alternator from a battery that was being charged by the alternator is the instantaneous interruption of the battery as a load on the alternator. There will be considerable electrical energy stored in the magnetic field, and if the battery is removed, the field will collapse. Normally the battery would be connected and would represent a very low impedance (low resistance) load, which would be glad to absorb the energy of the collapsing field of the alternator windings, but with no load on the alternator, the collapsing field can generate a much higher voltage output than normal. The high-voltage spike can create a voltage so high that the diodes in the alternator cannot tolerate that much voltage, and one or more diodes will fail as a result. But whether this occurs every time and with every field-excited alternator cannot be known with completely accuracy. Again, it depends on the design of the alternator, and if the alternator can tolerate that fault condition without being damaged.

ASIDE
I had, of course, read about how a collapsing magnetic field in a coil with many turns into an open circuit could create a higher-than-normal voltage. I did have an actual experience of this phenomenom until it happend to me. I was investigating an old circuit that used 24-Volt relays that had a very large number of turns in the relay coil--actually the sort of relay used in the Bell Telephone system, where each relay was designed to not consume too much current in the coil as there would be thousands of relays involved in central office equipment. Generally I was not too concerned about getting an inadvertent electrical shock will working on this particular equipment, as the highest voltage was only 24-Volts DC. I was working on "live" equipment and trying to measure voltages with a DVM. I must have had my finger in contact with a relay coil circuit by accident, and at that instance the relay coil circuit opened. Oh my, the collapsing magnetic field of that coil gave me a shock of several hundred volts, and my arm came flying out of that cabinet. That was the moment that I understood that the electrical theory about the ability of a collapsing magnetic field in a coil with many turns could generate a significant voltage spike.

[jimh]

Even if I install new switch, I can never be certain that [the old switch] was the problem; this bothers me.

I will break apart the old [battery switch, a] PERKO 8501, to see its contacts. I hope I see rust [on the contacts of the old battery switch]. [If I see rust on the contacts of the old battery switch] that will give me some confidence that i have fixed the problem [of losing electrical power to the helm].

About 20 years ago I had a similar intermittent problem in which there was a loss of electrical power to the engine cranking motor. And like your problem, the occurrence of this loss of power was very intermittent. I made a very careful inspection of all the wiring involved in the engine starting circuit. (I eventually wrote an article about all the possible places in an engine starting circuit where the flow of electrical current could be interrupted. See "Electrical Starting Circuits" at https://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/electricStart.html)

I also suspected the main solenoid relay as being a possible cause. At that time an OEM replacement part for the solenoid was available to me at a local boat dealer for only $24. I decided to replace the original solenoid as part of my repair. I also inspected and cleaned every connection in the circuit. Afterward, the problem of loss of engine cranking never reoccured, and the problem was solved.

I repeatedly tested the original solenoid on the bench, but there never seemed to be a problem with its internal connection. As you plan to do, I also disassembled the solenoid. The mechanism was held together by rivets, which I drilled out. I found the internal contacts of the solenoid to appear in a rather normal state. I did clean the contacts slightly, and I put the solenoid back together, retaining it as a spare. Was the solenoid the exact component in the loss of engine cranking power? I don't know for sure.

The lack of certainty about the solenoid (or in your case, the battery switch) being the cause of the circuit interruption reminds me of the same dilemma faced by David Bowmand and Dr. Frank Poole aboard the spacecraft DISCOVERY ONE, when the on-board computer system, HAL, reports that he predicts a failure of a critical component in the spacecraft antenna system will occur in the epic science fiction movie "2001; space odyssey." The component is retrieved and brought into the spacecraft for testing. There is no indication of imminent failure. The computer suggests that the device be reinstalled and then allowed to fail as he predicted. (After that decision, things go quite haywire, if you are familiar with the movie.)

Cf.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001:_A_Space_Odyssey

So you have that same option. After you replace the battery switch, and IF that prevents another occurrence of the loss of electrical power, then you could put the old switch back in service and see if the problem recurs.

[islavov]

JimH, thanks for all comments.

I did install a new switch.

The bad news for me: the old switch felt, sounded, and measured all good when I turn it. I did take apart, I had to basically destroy it to open it, and its contacts look very clean.

The old switch measured 0.6 to 0.7 Ohms, which I believe is normal for continuity for a switch.

Fig. 1. The battery switch rear panel. [Presumably, this is old switch whose function was suspected to be the cause of the intermittent electrical system drop out.]

batterySwitchRearPanel.jpg (38.88 KiB) Viewed 583 times

Fig. 2. The old battery switch after disassembly to reveal the condition of the contacts inside.

batterySwitchInteriorContacts.jpg (45.93 KiB) Viewed 583 times

I wish I had measured the new switch. At this point I have [the new switch] screwed in place.

For the sake of clarity, I will measure it and report here.

Still very confused.
I will keep this updated

[jimh]

The old switch measured 0.6 to 0.7 Ohms, which I believe is normal for continuity for a switch.

Measuring very low values of resistance can be a difficult, and often to get a really accurate measurement a rather precision meter and measuring technique is needed. However, that said, I think the resistance values you give are rather high.

The engine's cranking motor will probably draw over 100-Amperes at start and during cranking probably maintain about 100-Amperes.

The voltage drop that will occur when 100-Amperes flows across a 0.7-Ohm resistance will be 70-Volts. That could never happen in a system operating from a 12-Volt battery. With 0.7-Ohms in the switch, the most current that could flow with 12-Volts would be 17-Amperes, and that is not going to let the cranking motor turn over.

[jimh]

Now that I see the engine identified as a Mercury OptiMax, I think that engine has a field-excited alternator driven by a belt from a pulley on the engine crankshaft. You can confirm that if you take off the engine cowling and make a visual inspection, looking for an alternator. The OptiMax also has a belt-driven air compressor, so don't confuse that with the alternator.

[islavov]

I am almost certain my problem was the main [50-Amperes thermal] circuit breaker.

After doing a lot of thinking, I think IF the battery switch were faulty, the engine "would not have liked that", I did not dare to even try for sake of the test.

Logically, the main 50-Ampere breaker could have caused this flicker as it feeds everything on the console, while engine and alternator go straight from battery switch.

I measured the old breaker and the slightest tap on the small little test button increased the resistance and basically is opening the switch.

[If you want to watch a four-minute-long recording of what was just described in the above narrative, a recording has been made and posted to youTube at this URL]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV92r4Jekq0

Already, I was out for couple of hours and everything was fine. I hope I am not wrong [about thinking every thing is fine].

While [the engine was running] I tripped the new breaker: the engine ran fine, while the helm dashboard was without power.

The only [prior behavior that I could not replicate was] the fuel level error. I now think if I had kept the [circuit breaker in the OFF position] longer, [then the fuel level error] might have come up. I did not want to keep [the circuit breaker in the OFF] state longer, so I closed [the 50-Ampere circuit] breaker and the dash [electronics] came up; during this test the engine was running.

[islavov]

I bought the new 50-Ampere circuit breaker from Amazon so I could get it next day.

Fig. 3. The new and original circuit breakers.

twoCircuitBreakers.jpg (16.81 KiB) Viewed 474 times

I also ordered the OEM brand and might switch it when it arrives, or keep it as a spare.

[jimh]

I measured the old breaker and the slightest tap on the small little test button increased the resistance and basically is opening the switch.

The "test" button is NOT a test button. The button is intended to open the circuit breaker when pressed.

You should duplicate the test with the new circuit breaker, and report if tapping on the button on that circuit breaker begins to affect the connection.

[jimh]

While the diagnosis that the 50-Ampere circuit breaker was the cause of the momentary power outages that only affected the helm electronic is very likely correct, the association of the mechanical button on the circuit breaker being pressed causing the circuit breaker to open is not a very good test, in my opinion, because the actual purpose of the button is to cause the circuit breaker to open.

The only way the mechanical button on the circuit breaker could be pressed down during operation of the boat would be if there was some other gear stowed near the circuit breaker, and while the the boat was underway that gear could have been moved by the the movement of the boat and hit the button.

Also, if pressing the button was the cause of the momentary interruption, the onset of the power outage would need to be association with some jarring motion of the boat while underway.

Also, any jarring motion of the boat while underway could have caused some movement internally in the circuit breaker, without any other object coming in contact with the button.

A better test of the old circuit breaker would be to test for continuity while apply some jarring force to the circuit breaker to simulate the type of movement of a boat underway in some seas. For example, hold the circuit breaker a few inches above the test bench and drop it onto the bench. See if the continuity through the circuit breaker is affected.

[islavov]

Received the OEM Bussmann breaker, and did the same test. The test showed the the old breaker was away too sensitive [to any contact with the button that opens the circuit breaker]/

[ASIDE: another motion picture and sound recording of duration of about two minutes has been produced to demonstrate the test of the new and old OEM circuit breaker: https://youtu.be/DcAeS30BCJE ]

I have been out twice, probably about a total of six hours. I did not have any [problems related to loss of power at the helm console].


I have been paranoid and [continually] looking at [the battery voltage indicator]. I became concerned when I saw 12.00-Volts when the engine was idling. Then when I shifted to foward gear and increased engine speed, the battery voltage indicator went to 14.4-Volts. When this experiment was occurring, I was at the ramp and on the way out [to sea]. I will keep an eye on [the battery voltage on my next] trip. I hope [the battery voltage variation] has to do with the alternator [voltage output as a function of engine rotation speed].

[islavov]

UPDATE--The loss of electrical power at the helm console occurred again.

[Executive summary: there was a poor connection in the negative circuit between the battery terminal post and the fuse panel negative bus.]

NARRATIVE

Since this power loss began to occur, I have been carrying a voltmeter on my boat. At this most recent occurrence of power loss at the helm console, I measured 11.0-Volts between the fuse box positive and the ground (negative battery circuit) at the console. My inference from this [lower than normal voltage] was the console clearly was not getting the 12.6 or 12.7-Volts available at the battery.

I then next moved the the negative lead of the voltmeter to the battery negative, and read 12.6 or 12.7-Volts. This his immediately indicated to me that the small [negative circuit] cable from battery terminal to fuse panel [negative bus] had a defect.

I pressed down on the negative circuit cable connection and saw the voltmeter reading increase to 12.6-Volts, and then decrease to 11.0-Volts when I released my press on the cable--a clear indication of a problem in the negative circuit.

The [wire] itself was not the cause. I cleaned a connector with a wire brush, added grease at the battery negative terminal, and cleaned the connection of the negative circuit cable at the console fuse panel. The connections had oxidation.

I now think the problem of loss of electrical power at the helm console is solved, and I hope this will be my last post on this thread.

ADVICE
Check all [electrical power distribution wiring], clean [all connections] with a wire brush, and use battery terminal grease.

[jimh]

Thanks for the update. To discover that in a 12-Volt power distribution wiring there is a connection that looks good but is actually not good is quite common, particularly on boats where water and oxidation are always likely to infiltrate a connection.

Check all [electrical power distribution wiring], clean [all connections] with a wire brush…

I strongly disagree with using a wire brush on connections. You should never do that. A wire brush will make scratches on the terminal and connector, which will reduce the contact area and made a place for oxidation to start. Terminal connectors are usually coated with tin over the bare copper. Using a wire brush risks removing the tin and revealing the bare copper.

See my further remarks at

Restoring Electrical Connections
https://continuouswave.com/forum/viewto ... f=9&t=8748

If a terminal needs to be cleaned, use fine sand paper, 400-grit, and use WD40 as a wetting agent to wet-sand the terminal.

...and use battery terminal grease.

I strongly disagree. Applying a grease only serves to attract dirt onto the grease. The grease will typically be an excellent insulator, and it should never be applied on any part of the surface of a terminal or a connector that are supposed to be in contact. The connection should be made with clean and completely dry connections, and only after this connection is made should any product be applied to the connection. Instead of grease, use an aerosol spray and cover the terminal and connector with a coating of a product designed for this exact use, such as BoeShield T9 or CRC Battery Terminal Protector or Evinrude DPL. None of those products are a grease, and they will dry to a protective coating.

The ONLY place a grease is called for is if there is a rubber covering, for example as seen on spark plug rubber boot connections. In those situations use a dielectric grease--which means the grease is a super insulator and can tolerate very high voltages. For spark plug rubber boots do not use excessive grease or you will reduce the friction of the rubber boot holding itself in place. Use just a thin coating of grease so that no water can get between the rubber boot and the spark plug ceramic surface.

Another place where a very small amount of dielectric grease can be used is on connectors that have built-in flexible sealing surfaces--but only if the connector manufacturer calls for use of grease on those seals. Check the connector manufacturer literature to see if grease is suggested to be used on the sealing surfaces--and only on those surfaces, never on the actual electrical contacts.

See my further remarks at

Restoring Electrical Connections
https://continuouswave.com/forum/viewto ... f=9&t=8748

ASIDE: for situations where you don't have the time to disassemble a connection and carefully clean the contact surface, you can often restore an electrical connection by loosening the retaining nut or fastener, spraying WD40 on the contact and terminal post, manipulating the contact back and forth, and then re-tightening the retaining nut or fastener. The “WD” in WD40 stands for “water displacement.”

[Phil T]

A handful of owners have reported a failure of the OEM circuit breaker, similar to the one in the photograph, on Montauk 170 I's over the last few years.
Apparently they don't hold up very well.

There are many manufacturers of this style of breaker. Quality counts.

[jimh]

There are many manufacturers of this style of breaker. Quality counts.

PHIL T makes a good point. Buying the no-brand cheapest stuff may not pay off in the long run. A good vendor to use is Blue Sea Systems and their 285-series, which sells for about $40 on Amazon. See the manufacturer's listing of circuit breakers for surface mounting at

https://www.bluesea.com/products/catego ... face_Mount

and see Amazon vendors of them at

https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems ... V7AA/?th=1