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Author Topic:   OMC Loop Charge 225 - hot one side
kingfish posted 06-26-2003 08:45 AM ET (US)   Profile for kingfish   Send Email to kingfish  
I have my Outrage 22 sitting on the trailer in the drive while I am doing some tweaking and testing of my 1992 Evenrude 225, trying to track down an intermittent "missing" problem at medium and high speeds. I just ran some Techron through it, running the motor on earmuffs with the cowling off, and happened to notice that one bank of the V6 was running significantly hotter to the touch than the other. After the motor ran for a while (5-10 minutes?), the starboard bank would become very hot to the touch, while the port bank would only become warm; I didn't run it for much more than 15-20 minutes at a crack, and the condition remained throughout that period.

So, Sal, Bigshot, et al, am I witnessing something that is just how it is, or is this diagnostic of something I should be concerned about?


daverdla posted 06-26-2003 09:42 AM ET (US)     Profile for daverdla  Send Email to daverdla     
Does your motor have dual thermostats, one per side? My 92 evinrude 100 V4 does. If so, you can check their operation after removal by placing them in a pot of cool water. Heat the water and verify that they open at the correct temperation. Don't put them in hot water, it's important to verify that they open at the correct temperature. I just replaced mine with new. The old ones were two years old. If you're unsure of the age, replace them. You'll need new gaskets and gasket goop.

Could be also blockage on one side of the block.

daverdla posted 06-26-2003 09:45 AM ET (US)     Profile for daverdla  Send Email to daverdla     
I should have mentioned that the old ones did operate correctly. After two seasons in salt water, I figure it's cheap insurance to replace them. I also checked the operation of the new ones before I installed them. They're not difficult to replace, just a pain to get to the bolts.
lhg posted 06-26-2003 03:29 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
John - As you know I know nothing about OMC's, but I do know about stators in general, both from a friend who had a pair of your engines, and my 1989 Mercs.

Your problem sounds like the beginning of high speed stator trouble. Just a hunch. As for the cooling problem, not a clue!

Sal DiMercurio posted 06-26-2003 08:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
John, the over heat can only be 1 of 2 things.
Either bad "T" stats or clogged water passage.
If your water pump were bad, both sides would heat up.
Try running the engine again with that thermostat removed, if it continues to get hot you water jacket is clogged up.
Sometimes you can clear it with a long stiff wire.
You may need to bring her in & have a tech tear into her if it's really plugged.
Do "NOT" run the engine over 2,000 rpms on the hose or while in neutral anywhere.
You might remove that particular t stat & put the cap back on & take her a fast ride, but be sure to watch that head dosen't get to hot.
You can also run a fairly high preasure water hose in her without the "t" stats in & the engine off & just might break whatever it is blocking it loose.
kingfish posted 06-26-2003 09:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     
Dave, Larry, Sal - thanks for the replies-

I'm on the project of checking out the starboard t-stat and/or blockage; once I get that licked I'll almost be back to where I'm trying to track down the intermittent missing problem. First thing I've got to do though is replace my VRO tank; I took it too far apart out of curiosity when I was making sure of the tightness of all my fuel and oil line connections, screwed up an electrical connection in the sending unit, and now the low oil horn beeps every time after I've run the motor for a few minutes.

Trader Bill's in Hot Springs Arkansas sent me a new old stock replacement VRO tank with all fittings and lines that has never been used for 45 bucks. Recommend them highly, lots of OMC stuff, helpful and quick!

So hopefully I'm close to getting back to the original problem...


daverdla posted 06-27-2003 07:07 AM ET (US)     Profile for daverdla  Send Email to daverdla     
As I recall, the low oil and high temp alarms on my evinrude have the same audible signal, constant tone. The only difference is when the high temp alarm goes off, the max rpm's are limited. You may be getting a high temp alarm. It would only take a few minutes with a stuck thermostat. You'll know for sure after you replace your VRO. Heed Sal's warning, don't try to verify by running at high RPM's on earmuffs.
kingfish posted 06-27-2003 08:49 AM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     
Thanks Dave and Sal re: not running on muffs at high RPM-

It took me a while to get it through my thick scull why Sal had made that point; finally dawned on me that it was in response to my description of trying to run down a problem I was having at medium and high RPM. (Duh!)

I wasn't running the motor at high RPM on muffs though, just out in the open water. Now I will be particularly careful, and I appreciate the warning from both of you-


p.s. Dave - my warning was an intermittent horn, 1 or 2 seconds on then 1 or 2 seconds off, which I beleived was the low oil signal (as opposed to the no oil signal=constant), and the throttle didn't seem to be limited - I'll know more shortly...

kingfish posted 06-27-2003 10:53 PM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     
OK, here's what's up so far:

New VRO tank fixed the low oil beeping; took the opportunity to re-arrange the fuel line and oil line more to my liking as well as to relocate the bulbs for both in more sensible spots.

Took both t-stats out, ran motor without either one and both banks stayed cool; took the stats inside and warmed them up in a pan of water, they both opened around 170 to 180 degrees, so I put them both back in and now both banks only get warm. I think I've got (or had) a sticky stat. They're kind of goofy looking plastic things, and I think they're supposed to open closer to 160 degrees. As easy as they are to r&r and as cheap as they are to buy, I'm going to order new ones for both sides. 11 years is probably enough to expect out of them.

Ran a good slug of Techron through and let it sit over night. Now my tach is coming and going on me. I've read somewhere that weird tach readings *can* portend some electric problem or another, like stator as lhg suggested, or power pack or coil or something; can't remember what. I'm heading over to Lake Michigan in the morning and intend to pick uo a new tach on the way; hopefully that is all that's wrong, but by sometime tomorrow I'll know.

Downloaded a bunch of data on troubleshooting electric problems like failing stator, power pack, coils, etc. and intend to bone up, particularly if I find tomorrow that I've still got intermittent missing at medium and high RPM and/or the new tach doesn't give me consistent readings.

Thanks for the help-


Sal DiMercurio posted 06-28-2003 12:40 AM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
To check & see if it's the tach or rectifier, disconnect the gray wire behind the tach, attach a volt-meter to it, start the engine, & see if that gray wire has a good solid 12 volt reading, it it dosen't, your rectifier is going out, if it reads nothing, the rectifier is already gone.
This is "VERY, VERY VERY", important, do "NOT" use wing nuts to secure your battery cables to the battery, you "MUST" use s/s nuts. [ 2 on each post ] & tighten them with a wrench.
Wing nuts get loose & if that happens, theres no place for the electricity to go [ loose connection ] & there goes the rectifier.
This was a warning straight from OMC many years ago.
Your medium to high speed miss could be a number of things, but i'd certainly look at that stator & all the plug wires before replacing a pulse pack, cause they aint cheap, or even reasonable.
Good luck & think positive.
Jamie 20 outrage posted 06-28-2003 02:18 AM ET (US)     Profile for Jamie 20 outrage  Send Email to Jamie 20 outrage     
I work on a 225 all the time. I agree with all Sal says. To check the plug wires, at idle with the cover off, listen for a sharp snap. This will be an obvious plug wire finding someplace to ground out instead of the plug electrode. For the stator, believe it or not, just looking at them will usually tell you everything. As they die, the insulation melts off and makes a mess, leaving the wires to slowly short out. Recently, the owner complained of a miss. I pulled the plugs and found a drop of water on one of the plugs. I removed the head to find that the block had rotted away enough so that the head gasket wasnt being supported enough to keep a seal. I put some marinetex in the rotted spot and so far so good. Hope your repair turns out to be simple.
kingfish posted 06-28-2003 09:52 AM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     
5 Volts +/- on the gray wire on the back of the tach; red lead to gray wire (removed from tach) and black lead to ground.

Can a failing rectifier cause intermittent medium and high RPM missing?? (Say, "yes".)


Sal DiMercurio posted 06-28-2003 11:27 AM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Sorry Kingfish, even if your rectifier goes out, it wont effect the performance of the engine.
I don't understand your last post, 5 volts ???
Another easy way to check if your plug & coil wires are shot is.
Wait until a nice dark night, remove the hood off the engine, start her up & if anything is bad, it will give you a light show, arcing to ground.
kingfish posted 06-28-2003 04:56 PM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     

Didn't mean to be obtuse - I attached the red lead of a voltage tester to the terminal on the end of the gray wire once I removed it from the back of the tach, and attached the black lead to ground, then started the motor; the volt meter read 5 volts and change. I presumed that meant the rectifier was going bad, so I ordered a new one.

I did then take the boat over to Lake Michigan for a test run (with an extra battery considering my presumption that I'm not getting good charge from the rectifier/regulator), and strangely enough, it ran real well as I started it and idled about a mile down the river to the lake and ran real well for a couple of miles at about half throttle. Then it overheated (first time this has *ever* happened). I wound up removing the thermostats to get back to the ramp. I had reinstalled them exactly as I found them when I inspected them yesterday, so I'm not ready to believe I had them in wrong in some way. It's like they both just chose now to quit working, but I can't believe the coincidemce. The motor was showing a good telltale stream and good pressure (above 20# at half-throttle) on the pressure gauge.

It seems really weird that a seeming host of things are happening all at once like this...


Sal DiMercurio posted 06-28-2003 11:51 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
John, water will go past the t stats & give a good tell tail but not enough to keep the temp down.
Just change em every 3 - 4 years.
kingfish posted 06-29-2003 06:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     
Sal, Jamie, Larry, Dave et al-

Well, I think I’m on to something-

I bought a gear puller and a 1-7/16 socket (that I had to grind down because the OD was too big to fit down inside the recess in the flywheel), and pulled the flywheel.

Two little pieces of beat up sheet metal fell out when I took the flywheel off. (I’m thinking, “Hmm; I’ll bet that’s not a good deal…”) For the life of me, I couldn’t find where they might have come from or where they belonged.

I don’t know what a bright shiny new stator looks like, but this one doesn’t really look burned up, it just looks, well, kind of worn and cruddy. After disconnecting the leads from the terminal strip under the power pack cover, and cutting a half dozen cable ties that I don’t know how OMC *ever* installed, and even more to the point, I know even less about how I’m going to reinstall new ones in their place, I got the stator off and was able to take a good look at it. VOILA!! I found where the little sheet metal pieces once belonged.

My stator has one power coil and two charge coils; all three of these look basically the same except for the number and color of wires coming from them. Looking at these coils from the radial side, each one has a vertically oriented laminated metal contact that the flywheel magnets spin around, and each one has about a 1-1/2” h x 2” w sheet metal “shield” that surrounds the contact and is kind of bent slightly back towards the crankshaft on each side, and the “contact” protrudes through these shields. When you look at the top or bottom of the coils, it turns out that these “shields” are actually three separate, thin, individual pieces of sheet metal, glued together or something. Well on one of the two charge coils, right in line with one edge of the laminated contact, about 1/3 of the outermost layer of the “shield” had snapped off and broken away somehow and had been turned into the two beat up pieces of sheet metal that fell out when I removed the flywheel. I have to presume that’s not good...

I’m going to attempt to test the stator, if I have the right kind of multimeters and if the stator can be comprehensively tested. Any and all input would be more than welcome here…

Additionally, if I find like I think I will that this stator is shongo (credit: Bigshot), is it possible that the low voltage in the gray wire going to the tach, and the erratic tach behavior could be caused by something here in the stator?? That could mean that I only have to replace the stator and not the stator and the rectifier??



Jamie 20 outrage posted 06-30-2003 01:04 AM ET (US)     Profile for Jamie 20 outrage  Send Email to Jamie 20 outrage     
Have you figured out what made those pieces of metal come loose? One possibility is that one or more of your magnets have come loose. Take a look at your flywheel and check to see that all your magnets are spaced evenly, also grab them one at a time with your fingers and see if you can move them. Any two part epoxy will hold them after you sand off the rust. Even if your stator passes an ohm check, it could be bad. And yes, since the spark voltage starts at the stator/magnet, they will effect all the voltage readings after it.
kingfish posted 06-30-2003 09:27 AM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     
No, I haven't yet figured out what caused that piece of sheet metal to come loose from the coil - the flywheel magnets seemed to be appropriately located, just a little rusty or tarnished, but I did not inspect them closely nor did I handle each one to assure it was still properly adhered to the flywheel. I'll do those things tonight.

There is hard "pinkish" looking stuff around the three coils on the stator; I take it that is OK and that is not evidence that the potting compound is or has been leaking? I have read references to the potting compound appearing like "honey" if it is showing up where it shouldn't be; is that an accurate description? There is evedence of stuff that looks like varnish on the stator, but again, not knowing what a bright shiny new stator looks like, I don't know if this is a bad thing or not.



lhg posted 06-30-2003 04:14 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
John: What's this giving credit to Nick for the stator suggestion!!

All kidding aside, I believe tach problems are usually rectifier problems. Also, as JimH taught me, fiddle with the pole selector on the back of the tach.
They can get corroded up a little and need to be rotated a couple of times. This worked for me just recently.

However, I had a bad tach signal about 2 years ago on one of my EFI's. So the Mercury mechanic replaced the rectifier.
Tach still erratic. Finally found it to be a stator, even though engine was running fine. Go figure.

You're a lot braver than I would be tackling that big 'ole V-6. For me, it would be off to the dealer, since I would not trust my own work! All I do is change plugs and gear oil.

Hope you get her up and running again soon.

prj posted 06-30-2003 04:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for prj  Send Email to prj     
Fine technical thread Gents!

Larry, I think Bigshot is actually getting credit for the "shongo" usage, whose root word I'm still attempting to decipher. Feels like a military thing similar to fubar or somesuch.

kingfish posted 06-30-2003 04:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     

Right you are about the "shongo" credit - there is something about the feel of that word and the condition it denotes that just rubs me the right way...


Thanks for the words of encouragement - I have, at the suggestion of the local OMC dealer, fiddled with the pole selector, but the big deal is that there's only 5 volts getting to the tach via the gray wire when there should be 12. Everything else being equal, I guess that would indicate a bad rectifier/regulator. My dilemma now though is that my stator may be bad, and my rectifier may not be, but at the moment I haven't yet developed a strategy to determine whether one or both of them are bad, and if only one, which one. $200 for one and $300 for the other; my front mount Teleflex cylinder budget is currently in negative territory.

kingfish posted 06-30-2003 07:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     
Jamie and Sal-

I've just sent you a couple of digital photos of the charge coils on my stator, in hopes that you can diagnose whether they look like they should, or if that "pink" stuff is a bummer...



rsgwynn1 posted 06-30-2003 07:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for rsgwynn1  Send Email to rsgwynn1     
I bought a 1989 225 Evinrude that has been sitting up for several years. After finding low compression on one cylinder, I decided to pull the heads and check for scratches in the cylinder walls. I didn't find any, but there was significant carbon build-up, so I decarbed. More relevant to your question would be the heads themselves. The water channels were heavily corroded, and I cleaned them out by hand. If you run in saltwater, it might be a good idea to check this. A set of head gaskets doesn't cost very much, and pulling the heads is a low-tech job.
Sal DiMercurio posted 06-30-2003 11:33 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Kingfish, sorry to tell you, but thats the gell that comes out of the stator when it bites the dust,....gotta get a new one.

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