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ContinuousWave: Whaler Performance
Whaler 27: MPG of 200-HP Yamaha
|Author||Topic: Whaler 27: MPG of 200-HP Yamaha|
posted 03-20-2006 12:39 PM ET (US)
I'm [in negotiations to buy a 27-foot Boston Whaler boat which is powered by 1989] 200-HP Yamaha outboard motors. [The sellers] says they run fine, but boat is out of water. The sellers says [these engines consume] 17-GPH at 30-MPH cruise. Does that sound right?
[The engines are represented as having been used for] 700 hours in saltwater. These are not the "Saltwater" versions.
I feel that the price should be negotiable based on the need to spend $30,000 to re-power in the near future.
Or just rebuild [the current motors]?
I would think a pair of [newer] injected motors would save fuel but not money in the long run. $30,000 buys a lot of gas!
posted 03-20-2006 01:04 PM ET (US)
Have the shift shafts checked out. The Yamaha's of that era used in saltwater had shift shaft failures due to corrosion. It's an expensive fix.
My 27 Whaler WD with a pair of 225 Evinrude Fichts burns about 21 GPH at a 30 MPH. I think 17 GPH for a pair of carbureted motors at 30 MPH might be a bit on the optimistic side.
posted 03-20-2006 02:39 PM ET (US)
Looks like a dollar a minute at cruise. :)
Ah, but it's all worth it.
Could be worse I guess.
Yeah, on the shift shafts, if I were to be real faithful hitting the grease fitting can they hang in there? I believe in early 1990 they went to stainless shift and drive shafts.
posted 03-21-2006 01:23 PM ET (US)
you're right with $30,000 USD is a lot of gas.
But from my point of view the real problem is the age of the outboard motors. Almost 17 years in saltwater will leave some signs. I would consider such "oldies" as a free gift with almost zero value, and I would consider to spend nothing for rebuild or repairs.
If the price for the boat is right, get it, use them until they break and the get something newer.
P.S. My 1998 Outrage 23 with twin 150-HP HPDI burns about 15/16 GPH at 30 MPH. I guess that the motors in question will burn about 22 to 24-GPH.
posted 03-21-2006 04:57 PM ET (US)
If the guy would budge on the price I'd go for it, but he acts like the motors are no issue since they are fine *now*. But that doesn't do much for me. He says they passed compression test. I say: so what?
posted 03-21-2006 07:58 PM ET (US)
From my casual observation of the used boat market I have seen many larger boats, such as this Boston Whaler 27-foot hull, which are powered with large two-stroke motors of dubious fuel efficiency and clearly near the end of their life spans. Boats like this are moderately priced, and this downward pricing pressure comes from the very substantial costs of re-powering them with modern engines.
You have to take the good with the bad. If you want a bargain on a terrific hull--and here I am assuming the Boston Whaler hull in question is in great shape--you will have to take the clunker of these two fuel-thirsty outboards that will be very expensive to replace.
Go out and price a new 27-foot boat with a pair of new outboards in order to get a sense of how much a boat like this costs. Subtract your cost for new motors, and then compare the price of the hulls. This should give you guidance about the asking price.
Traditional carburetor two-stroke motors will be burning about 1/10-th of their horsepower rating in gallons per hour. With 400-HP on the transom, those old Yamaha motors will be drinking 40-GPH at wide open. If they burn 17-GPH at cruise, that is probably 17-GPH per motor.
posted 03-22-2006 09:40 AM ET (US)
No Jim, the seller assures me it is 17 GPH total at cruise.
I'm trying to get him to knock $5,000 off for the old motors and he has told me where to go (hot place). I don't like his attitude. He says Yamahas are the Lexus of OBs. What's that supposed to mean? I drive a Buick. :)
posted 03-22-2006 10:15 AM ET (US)
Yamaha engines are great, but those (1989) are pretty old, and the hull you are talking about is one of the bulletproof classic tanks of the Dougherty era at Boston Whaler. But those 27's are heavy (7,000+), beamy (10') boats and as jimh said 17 gph sounds more like it's for each engine.
If the seller insists in those numbers, a sea trial can confirm his claim or comfirm he is wrong. And I think he is wrong. My former 27' FC w/ 1996 200 hp Evinrudes was a great boat but a thirsty, (1 mpg) boat.
Good luck, Ricky
|Tom W Clark||
posted 03-22-2006 10:19 AM ET (US)
17 GPH at 30 MPH? On a 27? Are you kidding me? That's 1.76 MPG!
posted 03-22-2006 11:28 AM ET (US)
Well, just got off the phone and the man says the Floscans (sp?)(dual) read between 8 and 9 at 28 mph. Each motor.
He got irate when I questioned him on it. Said: "You don't have to buy the boat, I have 2 others that are seriously interested".
Don't know who to believe.......
posted 03-22-2006 11:47 AM ET (US)
Those 2.6L carbureted motors will be turning close to or above 4000 RPM to get to 30 MPH on the 27 Whaler hull if it has the Whaler Drive. Yamaha's performance reports for the 150 HP version of the 2.6L V6 show consumption at about 9.5 GPH at 4000 RPM. A 200 will be a bit higher than that.
|Tom W Clark||
posted 03-22-2006 11:52 AM ET (US)
I suspect he has the Floscans mis-calibrated. Like a Tachometer, the Floscan has an adjustment on the back of the instrument to calibrate it to the particular transducer used in a given application.
When I bought my Revenge last year I couldn't believe the fuel economy I was getting (according to my Floscan)...until I ran out of gas one night!
I think this is a common error.
A sea trial would probably straighten out this confusion. Let the owner fill the tank before the sea trail, then you offer to refill the fuel tank after the sea trial and compare the amount of fuel added relative to what the totalizer on the Floscan says. The answer to this question will become very apparent.
posted 03-22-2006 11:59 AM ET (US)
The broker tells me that to sea trial he would need a 10% deposit on an *accepted* offer. Plus a 4 page sale agreement would have to be signed.
How can I make an offer before a sea trial??? Seems backwards, esp. considering the age of the motors.
I'm ready to tell them to take a hike......
|Tom W Clark||
posted 03-22-2006 12:11 PM ET (US)
I do not think that is unusual or that terrible. It is much like real estate.
The fact is that your offer would be contingent on a satisfactory (to YOU) sea trail. If you don't like it it, for ANY reason, renegotiate the price down or walk.
posted 03-22-2006 12:15 PM ET (US)
That's a pretty typical arrangement with brokers to weed out the serious offers from the people who are just looking to go for a boat ride. I would make any offer contingent upon a sea trial to your satisfaction as well as a survey of the boat to your satisfaction. If you don't like the way the boat rides, handles, etc. from the sea trial, you should be able to walk from the deal with your money back.
The boat survey should go first then the sea trial. That signals to the seller that you are serious.
If you are sweating a 1 or 2 GPH discrepancy at cruise, maybe the 27 isn't the right boat for you. They like fuel, lots of it.
posted 03-22-2006 01:37 PM ET (US)
Well it's fuel usage on top of the need to repower.
What I would like to do is get 3-5 yrs out of the Yams that are on it then look at repowering. Like to stay with the Yams since the gauges, control are all there (digital) vs. switching to Mercs. Verados would be nice though.
At least the boats pretty much last "forever".
|The Machinery Killer||
posted 03-25-2006 09:32 PM ET (US)
Hey nothing better then dealing with a person who is not bashful so count me in as a one also. So numnuts wants to sell his boat or tell you to take a trip to a warm place. Well, Well, Well sweet pea I didn't think ya cared? So here is the game plan and either numnuts realizes your are serious and he is bluffing.
Stick to your guns, you want him to sell and you want to buy so lets see what happens when we do the sea trial. Peter, you go guy, keep Pete's idea, and have him top off the fuel tanks prior to launch or light offs depending on where it is located. You top off the tank after the sea trial and this MUST BE PERFORMED on a known or measured distance. Keep your times from start to finish along with how much was used and distance traveled.
Anyone worth the salt in the 30' and up market knows that a sea trial is not out of the question. Secondly, after working as crew in several predicted log-racing championships including the nationals it is not cost effective to have a vessel transported to the location of the competition. The hosting yacht club asks for a few members to allow use of their vessel for the competition in exchange for food, fuel, and similar pleasantries.
Chances are the seller in this case may be a fraud or a self-important pain in the @*%!
Additionally, anyone doing a restoration properly does it at a 100% or does not do it at all since they would loose their tail in the process. Which brings up the final point of keeping an eye out for a similar vessel with newer engines and instrumentation. Also Honda Marine does have complete gauge packages that are not cheap but do give the coxswain the information necessary to know if there is a problem. Mercury is known for leaving the little guy hung out to dry on technical support and parts issues but they have a large percentage of the market. It should be about time manufacturers that do not properly support the repair shops large and small, little guys who work with the end users who hope to become repair shops, be called on the carpet and turned in to Christians. Let me start the process.
posted 03-29-2006 02:29 PM ET (US)
Since I have had this basic boat in the Pacific for over sevens years and thousands of hours, let's see:
1987 Whaler27 - center console, cuddy, 1988 Yamaha CR200's, with 4 blade tuned SS props, HP trim tabs, and T-top.
On average in a 200 mile fishing trip we got 1.3 - 1.35 in 2-4 foot seas. A little less in rougher water.
The trip however was never starring at the tach and gps and saying what am I getting now!!!
It is a fishing boat, so we run out at night from 12-20 knots under heavey load: 4 fisherman, 400lbs ice in holds, 220 gals fuel, 180 quart chest with food, drinks, ice, 85 gal bait tank, enough tackle to sink a ship!
We troll all day, usually on one motor. We run from spot to spot @ 25-40 knots, home in the afternoon or evening at 30-40 knots. When I get home, time and time again, the fuel is right around 1.3.
When I have the Yamaha 3 blade props, it was 1.1 - 1.2.
I have no doubt that if I cruised at 35 knots in decent seas all day, I would get better numbers. BTW, my boat did 30 knots all day long at 3800-3850 rpm, 4000 rpm you had better hang on, because your heading to 35 knots easily.
No my brothers 1991 27' walkaround with whalerdrive and twin 225 johnsons was a pig at .9 -1.0 at best.
BTW my Whaler25 has a pair of twin Yamaha 175's from 1984 with more than 5000 hours and still rocking!
posted 03-29-2006 04:20 PM ET (US)
Well this is all a mute point in that we don't know what he is asking for the boat and what kind of condition it is in. Sure it will cost close to $30k to repower but if you are paying $20k for the boat...no brainer. Now if you are gonna pay $50k for the boat....again no brainer. I iwll tell you that my bud's 23' SeaCraft with twin 130 Yammies burned almost 15gph at 4k, my 225 burned about 14gph @4k, no way a 200 carbed is gonna burn 8-9. More like 11-12 each. I believe 8-9gph PER TANK, not while cruising.
posted 03-30-2006 02:38 PM ET (US)
Asking 39K. I offered 28K. (verbal) Haven't heard back.
Says the powerheads were rebuilt 2 yrs ago and with water pumps.
Broker says that it is priced with others on the market but I disagree. Most others have newer power.
posted 03-30-2006 04:00 PM ET (US)
Mine was super clean, you could rearch the archives here to see it, and the motors were much fresher, basically ground-up resto Yamaha's.
There was also 15K in brand new RayMarine electronincs, and very clean 15K, triple axel galvy trailer.
The boat sold here for around 30K, then resold again in about a year for much less. So the reality is, the brokers price seems too high, imho. Keep grinding... I picked up my Vigilant32 in showroom condition for a steal, but it took three years of grinding on the broker!
posted 03-31-2006 02:00 PM ET (US)
I hate for feel sorry for a broker but he is in a hard place. Trying to do what the owner wants but trying to sell the thing. He won't admit anything such as the fact that the motors are a hindrance to the sale, even though he knows it to be true......The owner would not like it.....
but hey he signed up to be a broker without a conscience. :)
I guess if the boat could have some on it's own merits then he wouldn't have needed a broker.....
posted 03-31-2006 02:09 PM ET (US)
Wait till Memorial day and ffer him $27k. Then on the 4th of July offer $25k, you'll get some action, it aint gonna sell for $39k. Also does he have the paperwork for the rebuilds? If not that is hearsay and worth about $1.
posted 03-31-2006 03:48 PM ET (US)
Says he has the receipts but I haven't seen them. When he says new powerheads what exactly is that? Entire block/heads? Maybe shift shafts replaced with stainless at that time?
Probably not "new" just rebuilt.
posted 04-04-2006 10:03 AM ET (US)
Turns out his wife wants outta hurricane country but he wants to stay and keep his boat. Thus the firm price.......
posted 04-07-2006 03:05 PM ET (US)
Hi - I was/am in exactly your situation - 1989 27 Whaler Center Console Cuddy with fuel-guzzling Johnson 300HP V8 outboards, and I've hung onto it a couple years, and am now repowering. I paid $28K for the boat, and the engines have been terrible since day one. I'm REALLY looking forward to getting modern power on board. Should have just bucked up and done it the day I bought it, but the big four-strokes and HPDI's were just coming out, Ficht's were blowing up everywhere, Optimax wasn't looking great, etc.
Now I've got lots of great choices for repower, and my big problem is which excellent engines to choose.
I think your price is right on, that carb'd 200's going for 17GPH is a joke on this boat (I'll bet money he can't run 350 miles on a single 200gal tank of gas), and that if you buy and repower, you'll be a very happy guy - it's a great hull.
posted 04-07-2006 11:41 PM ET (US)
To dispel any doubts about the Boston Whaler 27-foot hull, you should get a DVD copy of the movie STRIKING DISTANCE. The credits list Bruce Willis and Sarah Jessica Parker as the stars, but a Boston Whaler 27-footer is on screen about as often as either of those actors. It is a very attractive boat. Sarah Jessica looks good onboard, too.
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