270 Dauntless: Trolling Motor; Single v. Twin Engines; More

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Divin'Ivan
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270 Dauntless: Trolling Motor; Single v. Twin Engines; More

Postby Divin'Ivan » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:53 pm

I'm looking at the 270 Dauntless as our next boat. My wife and I really like the layout, and that forward storage compartment under the lounge seat is amazing. Also, the swim door/patio is pretty cool, especially for our family that dives. I have some questions about this boat that I hope I can get an answer to here.

I want to do some back country fishing in the Florida Keys, but most of these boats don't come with a trolling motor. I was looking at a 2018 model that has a windlass, I put my head inside the compartment where the windlass is in and noticed that there are what appear to be rigging tubes. Can someone tell me where these tubes go? I'm wondering if they go all the way back where the batteries are located or if they go midship to the center console.

I'm leaning towards the single Verado 350 instead of twin 225s. I've never owned a boat with twin engines before, I wonder if the much higher cost and added weight are worth it. Other than added redundancy and higher total HP, are there any other benefits to the twin setup over the single engine?

Any other information as well as any real life experience with this boat will be greatly appreciated.
Current boat - 2018 270 Dauntless, Twin Mercury 225 Verado
Previous boat - 2013 190 Outrage, Mercury 150 EFI - SOLD

jimh
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Re: 270 Dauntless: Trolling Motor; Single v. Twin Engines; More

Postby jimh » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:52 am

A 27-foot boat with a single 350-HP engine is a recent phenomenon. Before outboard engines grew in power to 300-HP or more, a boat this size would have always been rigged with twin engines.

A boat with 450-HP will be faster than the same boat with 350-HP. As for the value of the added few MPH that will be obtained versus the cost, only you can decide.

The twin engine rig will probably give better handling overall. Docking and slow speed maneuvering MAY be better, but, because of the very small offset of the engines from keel centerline, it won’t be fantastically better. Running on plane in bigger seas should be better due to the wider thrust of two propellers; it tends to reduce yaw.

Having run a boat with twin outboard engines for several years and then switching back to a single engine, I do not miss the twin engines much—if at all. The only time I get a fondness for twin engines is when very far offshore in very big water and running alone. By far out I mean 50-miles from shore. By big water I mean the ocean or a freshwater lake like Lake Superior (600 mile width). By alone I mean no buddy boat and no other boats anywhere within 30-miles. If you will be in those situation most of the time you use the boat, then consider twin engines

msirof2001
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Re: 270 Dauntless: Trolling Motor; Single v. Twin Engines; More

Postby msirof2001 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:31 pm

I had an OUTRAGE 21 from 1994-2017 with a single Yamaha 200 two-stroke-power-cycle engine from 1994 to 2013, and a single Yamaha F200XB engine from 2013 to 2017. And now an Everglades 295CC for a year with twin Yamaha F300 engines. My observations:

--the two-stroke-power-cycle engine was much less expensive to maintain

--four-stroke-power-cycle engine 100-hour maintenance was almost twice the money.

Now with the Everglades, I've doubled that cost.

I can't speak for Mercury or the pricing at your local service centers but twins will cost a lot more to maintain. It won't be a 2-to-1 but a little better. The performance will be noticeable. I also think you will get better fuel economy with a single outboard.

Jimh's comment about safety relative to the type of usage is very important. With my OUTRAGE 21, I'd come back after being out over 50 miles in the ocean feeling like I yet again survived another barrel-ride over Niagara Falls. With the twins on the Everglades, the piece of mind is significant. Luck isn't always there. Get a satellite phone and Tow BoatUS!
Current: 2017 Everglades 295cc, Previous1: 1995 Boston Whaler Outrage 21, Previous2: 1974 Sevylor Caravelle 3-man liferaft.

Divin'Ivan
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Re: 270 Dauntless: Trolling Motor; Single v. Twin Engines; More

Postby Divin'Ivan » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:45 pm

Regarding the twin vs single, currently most of my boating is within 20 miles from shore, within radio or cell phone range from other boats and towing services. Actually, here in southeast Florida it's hard to be more than 50-miles from any land due to our proximity to the Bahamas to our east. Having said that, any Bahamas crossing will be done with other boats.

According to data from Boston Whaler, top end is only 2-MPH difference with the twin 225 v. the single 350. Biggest difference I could tell was the time to plane of 3.7-seconds for the twins v. 5.4-seconds for the 350. The difference in price new is around $23,000 USD, plus of course double the cost of maintenance each year. I just don't know if the benefits warrant the cost.

My other question is adding a trolling motor to the bow. Just to be clear, this will not be used for ocean trolling, but more for positioning and maneuvering while fishing the bays, back country and the canals in the ICW. I can't find rigging diagrams that show where the tubes from the bow go and where the three additional batteries will go.
Current boat - 2018 270 Dauntless, Twin Mercury 225 Verado
Previous boat - 2013 190 Outrage, Mercury 150 EFI - SOLD

jimh
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Re: 270 Dauntless: Trolling Motor; Single v. Twin Engines; More

Postby jimh » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:59 am

Call Chuck Bennett at Boston Whaler customer service to get information on the rigging tubes in the bow area of a 270 DAUNTLESS boat.

Re the single v. twin: a top speed difference of 2-MPH does not seem to be worth anything. The twin option will be primarily for peace of mind in having two engines instead of one for redundancy. The value in twin engines is greatest if the boat can be put on plane with just one engine. If a single engine of a twin-engine boat can't get the boat on plane, you would have to continue at off-plane speed in the event of a failure of one engine. You could accomplish that with a small auxiliary engine like an 8-HP.

Divin'Ivan
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Re: 270 Dauntless: Trolling Motor; Single v. Twin Engines; More

Postby Divin'Ivan » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:21 am

Thanks Jim, I also found a great article that compares both on the 270 Dauntless, although the article primarily talks about the 300 Verado, it does mention the 350 as an update in some places. Below is the link to the article for anyone that may find it useful.

https://www.boatingmag.com/single-vs-twin-outboards-0

I will contact Chuck at Boston Whaler to see if he can help me with the trolling motor question. Only reason I didn't want to go that route first is that Boston Whaler offers the pro angler as an option that includes the connection in the bow for a 36-Volt trolling motor, but the price of that option is ridiculous for what it is: they advertise it at over $12,000 for basically the connection and mounting brackets for a trolling motor and power pole, but it does not include either. It does have a porta-bracket which would be a really nice addition to this boat, but not for $12,000.
Current boat - 2018 270 Dauntless, Twin Mercury 225 Verado
Previous boat - 2013 190 Outrage, Mercury 150 EFI - SOLD

jimh
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Re: 270 Dauntless: Trolling Motor; Single v. Twin Engines; More

Postby jimh » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:16 pm

I read the linked article about the 270 DAUNTLESS testing with both single (300-HP) and twin (225-HP) engines. The article was informative.

The cost difference looks like $22,000 to upgrade to twins. The fuel economy advantage of the single engine is mentioned, but I am not sure it is particularly large and significant. Let's say you like to cruise around 27-MPH. The fuel burn rates will be

SINGLE = 11.8-GPH at 27-MPH
TWIN = about 12.4-GPH at 27-MPH interpolated from data at 22.6 and 28.7-MPH

The single is going to save about 0.6-gallons every hour you are running at 27-MPH cruise. Let's say you run 100-hours per season and half of that you are at the 27-MPH cruise, or 50-hours. The single engine will save you 30-gallons of fuel a year. At marina fuel dock price of $4.50-per-gallon, you are going to save $135 per year in fuel at cruise. I get the feeling that if you can afford a $100,000 to $125,000 boat, you are not going to worry about $135 a year in added fuel costs.

For slow speed operation, you can shut off one of the twin engines, and then the remaining twin 225-HP engine that is running should use no more fuel and perhaps less fuel than the single 300-HP engine. So I'd say the fuel economy off plane is a wash--no winner or loser.

The boat test data shows an enormous difference in top speed. The twin-engine boat hits 52.7-MPH, and the single only gets to 40.2-MPH. That is a very significant top speed difference, more than 12-MPH. That is worth something, if you need to go really fast. (But Boston Whaler data shows less difference; see below.)

Of course fuel burn at full throttle with either rig is high. The 300 burns 29-GPH at full throttle. The twin 225 engines burn 46-GPH. Let's look at brake specific fuel consumption (BSFC). We figure gasoline has a density of 6.1-lbs/gallon. The single at 300-HP has a BSFC of 0.59-lbs/HP-hour. The twins have a combined BSFC of 0.62.

I looked at the Boston Whaler test data for a 300 and twin 225. The single 300-HP boat hits 44.6-MPH; in BOATTEST's report it only reached 40.2-MPH. That is quite a difference in top speed for the 300-HP version. For the twin 225-HP version, Boston Whaler tests say 53.8-MPH for twin 225-HP engines; BOATTEST says 52.7-MPH, which is reasonably close agreement.

The 225-HP engines should be more durable than the proposed 350-HP engine, since they are both using the same displacement engine block. The 350-HP engine is getting 125-HP more from the same displacement. That is an increase of 55-percent more power. That must be harder on the engine block and its basic components. And any time on plane except full throttle, the twin engines are running at about 1,000-RPM lower engine speed. That alone means less wear on the engines. The twin 225-HP rig may likely run longer with less problems than the highly-tuned 350-HP model.

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Phil T
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Re: 270 Dauntless: Trolling Motor; Single v. Twin Engines; More

Postby Phil T » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:55 pm

There are four engine options for the 270 Outrage ranging from the single 300 Verado (standard) to the 350 XL L6 DTS Verado with hydraulic power steering. Twin 200 or 225's are also options.

With the Verado line of engines, there are many high tech features. I recall reading one is troll control where the low speed can be controlled via a dial or accessory equipment other that the throttle on the binnicle.

I have read several threads that note for effective setting of troll control (TC), the paddle wheel speed sensing accessory is necessary since GPS is not sensitive enough at speeds below 8mph.

Before I consider adding the serious expense of a trolling motor, modifying the bracket or removing bow rail, batteries, switches etc. I would discuss the features of the various engine choices with a factory certified Mercury Verado rep. Note I am not recommending you talk to a salesman.
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jimh
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Re: 270 Dauntless: Trolling Motor; Single v. Twin Engines; More

Postby jimh » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:14 pm

Initially I thought the Boattest.com article tested the 350-HP Verado, but it only tested the 300-HP engine; I revised some of my calculations to reflect the 300-HP value. I also used the wrong value for gasoline density; I corrected that, too.

CXM1971
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Re: 270 Dauntless: Trolling Motor; Single v. Twin Engines; More

Postby CXM1971 » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:01 am

I would definitely go with the new 3.4 liter 200 or 225 hp V6 twin set up for the Dauntless 270, these engines are lighter, more fuel efficient and will replace the supercharger Verados going forward.

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Re: 270 Dauntless: Trolling Motor; Single v. Twin Engines; More

Postby jimh » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:46 pm

CXM--that is an interesting suggestion. But are those engines available now? A buyer might have to wait a few months to see if Boston Whaler offers the Mercury 200 FOURSTROKE not-VERADO for 2019 models.

CXM1971
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Re: 270 Dauntless: Trolling Motor; Single v. Twin Engines; More

Postby CXM1971 » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:29 pm

I believe that Boston Whaler is beginning to offer these engines. I saw a video from Marinemax in Wrightsville showcasing an Outrage 250 with the new 3.4-liter V6 outboards. I have to assume that as soon as the 2019 model year rolls out next mont) they will be available for models like the Dauntless 270.

These new engines are definitely worth the wait.

jimh
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Re: 270 Dauntless: Trolling Motor; Single v. Twin Engines; More

Postby jimh » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:20 am

CXM1971 wrote:...These new [Mercury FOURSTROKE V6 200 and 225-HP] engines are definitely worth the wait.


I suggest that acting now to buy twin FOURSTROKE VERADO 225-HP engine may be worth NOT WAITING. My reasons for that are:

--the VERADO L6 platform has been in production for about 14-years, is a mature product, has had all the bugs worked out, and is an extraordinary engine in all respects, other than its size and weight. In particular the noise, vibration, and harshness (NVH) in the L6 FOURSTROKE VERADO is unmatched by any other engine.

--the new Mercury FOURSTOKE 200 and 225 models are completely new and have no track record for performance, reliability, or NVH.

There is speculation that the FOURSTROKE VERADO L4 200-HP model and the FOURSTROKE VERADO L6 225-HP model are going out of production, to be replaced by the FOURSTROKE 200 and 225 V6 non-supercharged engines. In the near future there may no longer be a chance to buy these engines.

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Re: 270 Dauntless: Trolling Motor; Single v. Twin Engines; More

Postby jimh » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:38 am

Re the performance of the VERADO FOURSTROKE 350: I just discovered that Boston Whaler has published a performance test for this engine on the 270 DAUNTLESS. (It took me a while to figure out the very unusual user-interface on their website that revealed this report.)

The top speed with single 350-HP was 51.0-MPH and fuel burn was 30.5-GPH. The test date was February 2015. I find that date to be odd. I didn't think the non-racing 350-HP FOURSTROKE VERADO was introduced until just recently. The BSFC is 0.53-lbs/HP-hour, which is the lowest BSFC of the VERADO rigs on this hull. Compare that to the twin 225-HP engines, burning 47.7-GPH to make their 450-HP: BSFC is 0.65-lbs/HP-hour, all to get an extra 2.8-MPH.

Divin'Ivan
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Re: 270 Dauntless: Trolling Motor; Single v. Twin Engines; More

Postby Divin'Ivan » Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:49 pm

Quick update, last week I took delivery of my new 270 Dauntless. I found a leftover 2018 model that was rigged with twin 225 Verados, swim patio, windlass and bow and aft Sureshades that I wasn't crazy about but my wife loves them. I will be shopping around for a trolling motor, looking at the MotorGuide Xi5, the Minn Kota Riptide Ulterra and the Rhodan HD GPS Anchor+, all in 36v.

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Current boat - 2018 270 Dauntless, Twin Mercury 225 Verado
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Jefecinco
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Re: 270 Dauntless: Trolling Motor; Single v. Twin Engines; More

Postby Jefecinco » Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:34 am

That's a beautiful Dauntless. I didn't know they were available with a "diving door". Is that what is meant by "swim patio"? That will be a very useful feature when landing a large fish.
Butch

jimh
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Re: 270 Dauntless: Trolling Motor; Single v. Twin Engines; More

Postby jimh » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:06 pm

Nice boat—actually extremely nice boat.

After you get through the VERADO engine break-in period, I bet it will be fun to hit 55-MPH.

Also, to learn if one engine can get the boat on plane and get above 20-MPH will be interesting to know.

Divin'Ivan
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Re: 270 Dauntless: Trolling Motor; Single v. Twin Engines; More

Postby Divin'Ivan » Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:04 pm

Jefecinco wrote:That's a beautiful Dauntless. I didn't know they were available with a "diving door". Is that what is meant by "swim patio"? That will be a very useful feature when landing a large fish.


Its not really a door per se, its more like a platform that opens down and lays just above the waterline, it comes with a ladder that you attach which makes boarding very easy. The first time my wife saw it she fell in love with it and from then on every boat we looked at, and we looked at a lot of them, fell short because they didn't have this platform. In fact, the 270 Dauntless had 2 features that no other boat in its class had, one being this platform and the other the forward seating area including a huge storage compartment in front of the console that forms a double lounge seat with arm rests.

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Current boat - 2018 270 Dauntless, Twin Mercury 225 Verado
Previous boat - 2013 190 Outrage, Mercury 150 EFI - SOLD

Divin'Ivan
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Re: 270 Dauntless: Trolling Motor; Single v. Twin Engines; More

Postby Divin'Ivan » Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:12 pm

jimh wrote:Nice boat—actually extremely nice boat.

After you get through the VERADO engine break-in period, I bet it will be fun to hit 55-MPH.

Also, to learn if one engine can get the boat on plane and get above 20-MPH will be interesting to know.


I was told that these Verados don't require a break-in period, regardless I am old fashioned in that I always do a proper break-in be it on cars or boats.

I will find the day soon when I can test the time to plane on one engine but being OCD I will have to do the exact test using the other engine so as to keep the engine hours the same.
Current boat - 2018 270 Dauntless, Twin Mercury 225 Verado
Previous boat - 2013 190 Outrage, Mercury 150 EFI - SOLD

Tacky79
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Re: 270 Dauntless: Trolling Motor; Single v. Twin Engines; More

Postby Tacky79 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:10 pm

That 270 Dauntless is a nice boat!

The 270 Dauntless is our grail boat, but we're going to stick with our Montauk for a few more years. More pics, please.
2017 Boston Whaler Montauk 190 w/ 150 Merc/Fish Pkg/Bowrail delete/aft seating
1979 Boston Whaler Harpoon 5.2 sailboat with sails and a tiller :D

thammer
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Re: 270 Dauntless: Trolling Motor; Single v. Twin Engines; More

Postby thammer » Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:29 pm

Thanks for all of your comments above. Found a leftover 270 at Gull Lake that they made me a great deal on. Twin 225’s (docking and offshore piece of mind) I had a 220 outrage previously and have also had a 315 conquest. Was looking for the perfect keys fun, fish and travel boat. My wife loved the seating area and storage and at the end of the day I couldn’t justify another $90,000 to get a 280 outrage.

Looking forward to the keys and heading out to the Dry Tortugas for some camping and the marquesses for some fishing.
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Tacky79
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Re: 270 Dauntless: Trolling Motor; Single v. Twin Engines; More

Postby Tacky79 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:00 pm

Perfect boat:
--retractable sun shade; check.
--Ski pole: check.
--twin 225s: check

Beefy looking trailer, too--is it aluminum?

Congrats
2017 Boston Whaler Montauk 190 w/ 150 Merc/Fish Pkg/Bowrail delete/aft seating
1979 Boston Whaler Harpoon 5.2 sailboat with sails and a tiller :D

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Dutchman
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Re: 270 Dauntless: Trolling Motor; Single v. Twin Engines; More

Postby Dutchman » Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:21 pm

thammer wrote:Found a leftover 270 at Gull Lake .

Are you located here in West Michigan? Or, are you traveling a distance to get the boat from Gull Lake Marine?
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