Boating Newbie

A conversation among Whalers
Echo4Hotel
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:34 pm

Boating Newbie

Postby Echo4Hotel » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:07 pm

Good evening and glad to have found the forum. I'm a native of Texas, Houston to be precise, and I'm looking at purchasing my first boat. Given that no matter how old you get your parents always have influence over you, I was guided towards a Boston Whaler by my dad. He has always wanted a Montauk 170 for fishing in the bay as well as near shore in the Gulf.

From all of the research I have done, I don't think he has steered me wrong with the brand suggestion, but I am considering something a little larger. I would like to be able to take at least 8 people comfortably and I would like to be able to go a little further offshore than my dad is comfortable with. My girlfriend prefers the front seating configured more in a V so that the occupants can face one another. She also prefers a hire side to the boat to lean against if landing a larger fish.

I have considered a 190/210 Montauk as well as a 230 Outrage or anything near those. My concerns with the V hull of the Outrage are the stability when anchored and the ability to get into the more shallow waters along the coast, but I feel that the V hull and the size of the boat would lend itself to fishing a little further out. The modified V of the Montauk will allow me to get to the skinny water, but might be a little rough to go out further.

Seeing as this is my first boat, I don't yet have a good feel for how big is too big or how small would be too small. I want to trailer the boat and make sure that I can safely tow (safe is relative in Houston traffic) and launch the boat as a newbie. However, I don't want to go so small that I outgrow the boat too quickly.

I am comfortable on the water, with land navigation, and with radio usage due to my military background, just new to captaining a boat.

Any thoughts are welcome as I sit here and day dream about this purchase.

Ridge Runner
Posts: 191
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:12 pm
Location: Matawan NJ / Punta Gorda FL

Re: Boating Newbie

Postby Ridge Runner » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:41 pm

Echo - Welcome to the forum! and enjoy your boat buying experience. There is a large difference between a 170 Montauk and 210 Montauk and a 230 Outrage from price to size and weight. Is your budget that flexible? A new 170 Montauk is around ~35k and a 230 Outrage about ~120k. A 230 Outrage can weight in about 7,000lbs, can your tow vehicle handle the weight?

I have owned a 170 Montauk (passed on to my son) and currently own a 210 Montauk. These are pretty utilitarian boats, easy to maintain - hose and go, and a bit of jack of all trades. I love my 210 Montauk but it's no Outrage, the hull will pound in a heavy chop. I consider it a very good in-shore boat with the ability to venture a few miles off-shore on nice days. It's a great all around boat for fishing, water sports and cruising around.

As for having eight people on-board, that would be really pushing it in anything less that a 25 foot boat. I know that the 230 Outrage spec's are for up to 10 people but that's creating a situation that I wouldn't be comfortable with - the exception being 4 adults and 4 children. There is just not that much room to move around. My 210 Montauk is spec'd at 9 people. Taking 6 adults out for a short cruise is ok but on an all day fishing trip I won't take more than 5 adults, typically two fishing the bow and two fishing the stern - with myself at the helm.

Your best bet is to start your search at a Boston Whaler dealership where you can talk to a knowledgeable sales person and walk through each model in the lines that interest you, Montauk, Outrage, Dauntless, etc...
Member since 2005
2005 170 Montauk, 2010 E-TEC 115 H.O.
2016 210 Montauk, 2017 E-TEC G2 200 H.O.

"Red sky at night, sailor’s delight - Red sky in the morning, sailor’s warning”

Tacky79
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 1:49 pm

Re: Boating Newbie

Postby Tacky79 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:06 am

230 Vantage sounds about right for you, but it's $150k and can't quite get into the shallow waters that the Montauk can, but we are only talking a difference of inches, so that may not be of concern. It's better setup for 8 (to 10) people than a center console, in my opinion.

From my readings, the Dauntless is in-between the Montauk and Outrage when it comes to handling heavier seas, so venturing a little further out on a Dauntless probably gives a better ride than the Montauk. Maybe a 210 or 240 Dauntless fits the bill?
2017 Boston Whaler Montauk 190 w/ 150 Merc/Fish Pkg/Bowrail delete/aft seating
1979 Boston Whaler Harpoon 5.2 sailboat with sails and a tiller :D

User avatar
Dutchman
Posts: 641
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:48 am
Location: Kalamazoo, MI (South Haven)
Contact:

Re: Boating Newbie

Postby Dutchman » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:50 am

Start with a budget, and the forum can then recommend your best options. But as mentioned a $100,000-difference in 17' to 23' boats makes a difference in what to recommend.
EJO
"Clumsy Cleat"look up what it means
50th edition 2008 Montauk 150, w/60HP Mercury Bigfoot

Divin'Ivan
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 12:00 pm

Re: Boating Newbie

Postby Divin'Ivan » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:18 am

My 190 Outrage is rated for 8 passengers, can handle seas very well and has a 12-inch draft. I have taken eight passengers on my boat when going on a cruise up the Intercostal for dinner or hang at the sandbar, and on rare occasions to go snorkeling near shore on a calm day. For fishing I cap it at four, mainly to keep out of each other's way

I think [the Boston Whaler 190 OUTRAGE boat] is a true jack of all trades. It gives you the stability and assurance to head out even in rougher seas with the deeper V-hull, yet can go pretty skinny when you want to fish the shallows.
Current boat - 2018 270 Dauntless, Twin Mercury 225 Verado
Previous boat - 2013 190 Outrage, Mercury 150 EFI - SOLD

PATXBill
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:33 am

Re: Boating Newbie

Postby PATXBill » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:44 am

As most have mentioned, a bit more information would be helpful and we can guide you better after we know your budget, storage options, where you live and boat, etc. Here's my $.02.

I lived in Houston (west side, just off Westheimer between Beltway 8 and Highway 6) for 15 years. I fished all the upper coast bays, but primarily the Galveston bay complex. I started with a 1974 17 foot Aquasport (great little boat) and then moved up to a 1984 Outrage 22. IMHO, the Outrage 22 is the best all around classic for the upper TX coast. Trailerable, easy to launch, Doesn't draw too much water (can get in close to anchor and wade) and can run the beachfront for tarpon or offshore for snapper, dorado, kings, ling, etc. There's a reason the Silver King guide guys all ran classic 22s-25s or their guardian equivalents.

If you can afford to buy new, committed to boating and fishing the upper TX coast, then allow me to spend your money by telling you to look at the 2 boats I would consider ideal for what you described, and that I would buy if I still lived in Houston and wanted new:
1. The 210 Montauk
2. The 240 Dauntless

You may also consider the 190 Montauk, the 210 Dauntless, and the Outrage family (190 or 230). These will not be inexpensive, but price is in the eye of the beholder.

If looking used, you might find a classic 22 or 25 Outrage or the Van Lacker 24 Outrage (an underrated gem, in my opinion) or a used 220 Dauntless that is in good shape and reasonably priced. But know that Whalers on the upper TX coast tend to go for a premium in my experience.

Good luck, provide more info, and you'll get good advice here.

--Bill

User avatar
Acassidy
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:25 pm
Location: Galveston, Texas

Re: Boating Newbie

Postby Acassidy » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:17 am

I live in Dickinson south of Houston.

Are you planning to boat ride and swim or fish with people on the boat?

Are you planning to go to the lakes or out in the Galveston bay with the boat?

Where you plan to launch and go will help you decide what boat.

Things to consider:

--Launch and handling a larger boat as a newbie is much more challenging than a smaller boat. There is a big difference from a 19 and a 23 Whaler. I own a 24 Outrage and it is much more challenging to trailer, launch and maneuver on the water than a smaller boat. Smaller is better for a newbie to learn on and I would hate for your first experience with a boat to be aggravating. If you're planning to fish from the boat, then three or four is the maximum crew you would want to take out at a time. Split up your eight-person group for different trips.

--I have owned in order 1979 Montauk 17, 1984 Outrage 22, 1977 Lo-Pro 19, and now my 1995 24 Outrage. I am talking from experience. I have been boating my whole life and have owned nine boats boats and am 48 years old. The Lo-Pro is around the same size as the 190 Montauk and was easy to launch and handle. The Montauk 17 is small for the bay but is very doable.

--If you go out in the main Galveston Bay, or East By, most of it is not shallow and a bigger boat is fine--you do not need a shallow-draft boat. West bay is much shallower and is a challenge to navigate.

--Watch the wind (windalert app) because if it picks up the bay can be a bear. For Galveston bay most people run a 20 to 22-foot-boat minimum. But I fished the bay with a Montauk 17 for years and just watched the wind and fished protected areas. Most people fish center console so that you can stand while it is rough in the bay.

--The ride on a bow-rider in the bay can be rough on your back and body.

--[By standing at the helm] you see better in rough water.

--If you are planning only fresh water than you want a lower sided boat like the Dauntless line or Montauk line. If bay add Outrage line.

Of all the boats I have owned the Montauk 17 is the most fun boat. Super easy to launch and a blast to boat ride in. Super easy to store and trailer. I could take out four people for boat riding. Cheap to maintain and at the fuel pump. Next boat I loved was the 19 Lo-Pro and I regret selling it. The 24-footer is not fun to trailer and launch, but once in the water in Galveston Bay the boat gets small fast and drives like a Cadillac. It is a great boat,

Good luck
Archie

User avatar
Acassidy
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:25 pm
Location: Galveston, Texas

Re: Boating Newbie

Postby Acassidy » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:02 pm

Let me add.
Anchoring the 24' and fishing it is a very stable boat while at anchor. I cannot stress the importance of watching the wind forecast and the wind direction if you are planning to go off shore or in the bay. If you are new to boating and plan to go offshore, it can get hairy out there. Also look where you will be launching. I launch under the Kemah bridge on the Seabrook side and fish the bay complex for Specks and Reds. North jetty this time of year is great and you can find a protected side. Most people out here who go off shore cancel trips because of wind.

Nice thing about the bay is that you can run though rough water and fish protected water that you find, example fish south shore if strong south wind, fish west shore lines if west wind. Fishing in rough water sucks for everyone and running offshore in high winds is outright dangerous. Get a good GPS and learn the bay and off shore. Hotspots map at Academy is perfect. I have seen so many boats run aground at high speed in middle of the bay on shallow reefs. Plus there are well and piping out there. One time I saw a super fast boat during a poker run aground hard on April fools reef. Funny to watch but sucked for them. Blindly running the bay can be expensive.

Archie

Echo4Hotel
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:34 pm

Re: Boating Newbie

Postby Echo4Hotel » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:16 pm

So many thoughtful questions and great advice, thank you all. I'll do my best to reply to most of the inquiries.

  • The budget is not that broad, so the bigger the boat I would probably go with a used boat near the end of the season or in the winter when I suspect I might be able to find a decent deal on a used.
  • When I say 8, I think it would primarily be 2-4 adults (especially if fishing) and then a few kids. I'm 45 so most of my friends have kids ranging from 10 - 20.
  • I have towed large livestock trailers, but never a boat bigger than a jonboat. My truck is rated for 11k pounds. So I believe I have the equipment for a larger tow, but if towing a boat is different then maybe I'm more confident than I should be.
  • I intend to store the boat near my house in SW Houston and will launch from multiple places. One of my buddies has a slip at bal harbor marina on clear lake so I imagine I will be near there often.

How does draft affect the engine?

Does 12" draft as the 210 Montauk [affect the engine more than] the 18" draft of the 230 Outrage?

I imagine [the draft listed in a boat’s specifications] is non-loaded draft. Is sitting still instead of moving a factor in draft?

[Deleted new topic on electronic navigation: use the forum SMALL BOAT ELECTRICAL for that topic. Threads that are organized around a single topic are far more interesting to read, and contain far more valuable data. If you wish to discuss electronics, start a new thread in an electronics forum like SMALL BOAT ELECTRICAL—jimh, moderator]

User avatar
Dutchman
Posts: 641
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:48 am
Location: Kalamazoo, MI (South Haven)
Contact:

Re: Boating Newbie

Postby Dutchman » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:03 pm

Draft mentioned is with engine up (trimmed out of water) and static load. Four crew in the back gives you deeper draft than one to two crew at the center console.

If you are used pulling large trailers, a larger boat will be easier to pull, and your truck with 11,000-lbs-rated-capacity has the capacity to pull any model you are looking at.
EJO
"Clumsy Cleat"look up what it means
50th edition 2008 Montauk 150, w/60HP Mercury Bigfoot

jimh
Posts: 6642
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:25 pm
Location: Michigan, Lower Peninsula
Contact:

Re: Boating Newbie

Postby jimh » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:48 am

The outboard engine gear case will project below the bottom of the hull, and the useable draft will be the hull rated draft plus two feet—at least.

A boat on plane may have less draft than the hull’s static draft, but the transition onto plane will require even more draft than the static draft.

If you want a towable boat for eight people to enjoy and use in shallow water get a pontoon boat, not a Boston Whaler. You’d need a 35-foot, $500,000 Boston Whaler to be comfortable for eight.

Most “family” boats are a hit with the wife and kids for a year or two, then dad’s out fishing with his brother after that.

Tacky79
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 1:49 pm

Re: Boating Newbie

Postby Tacky79 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:47 pm

jimh wrote:Most “family” boats are a hit with the wife and kids for a year or two, then dad’s out fishing with his brother after that.


Good point, and I think that's where the Vantage makes good sense. Decent for fishing, yet VERY family friendly with the cushions and head, etc.

If I ever budget $150k for a boat, my money is going to a Vantage.
2017 Boston Whaler Montauk 190 w/ 150 Merc/Fish Pkg/Bowrail delete/aft seating
1979 Boston Whaler Harpoon 5.2 sailboat with sails and a tiller :D

jimh
Posts: 6642
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:25 pm
Location: Michigan, Lower Peninsula
Contact:

Re: Boating Newbie

Postby jimh » Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:10 pm

Re learning to boat with small boates compared to larger boats:

Small boats are often preferred for new boaters to learn with because of their weight. A 1,100-lbs boat floating in the water can be easily controlled by hand; you can pull it where you want it to go with a line. You can stop it by grabbing a dock piling. If the boat does collide with something, the forces involved are much smaller. The material strength is the same as larger boats, so a hard bang against the dock won't cause a problem.

If you are learning to boat with a boat that weighs 5,000-lbs, you have to be in control. You can't just grab a line and stop a 5,000-lbs boat with some way on from hitting a dock piling. And don't put your foot out there to stop it, either.

But once away from the launch ramp, off the trailer, and underway, larger boats can almost be easier to learn on because they don't react as fast to any input from the helm or throttle. A small boat responds like a sports car--you give it some throttle and it leaps into motion. Larger boats are more sluggish and can forgive a bit of error--assuming you correct it right away.

As for trailering larger or small, my opinion: if the trailer is properly set up and the ramp is sufficiently long and deep, launching or loading a 24-footer should not be particularly more difficult than a 17-footer, except for the magnitude of the forces. Again, if you let the boat come flying off the trailer, you aren't going to be able to have your wife haul it in if it weighs 5,000-lbs--it will drag her off the pier.

I have been launching and loading my REVENGE 22 W-T Whaler Drive, which is almost 30-feet long overall if you measure from the bow pulpit to the back of the outboard engine and when fully loaded for cruising weighs over 4,400-lbs, and the launch or load is generally not a panic or high drama to accomplish. But if you do screw up something, the bigger boats are going to be bigger problems.

Also re being a trailer boater: in order to have a successful day you need THREE things to work perfectly:

--the tow vehicle
--the boat trailer
--the boat

Any problem with any of the three and the day is ruined. You have to keep three mechanical-electrical complex devices in excellent working order. The guy rides his bicycle to the marina and hops on his boat in a slip only has to really worry about the boat.

Finally, boating is a complicated recreation. I have been running boats since I was about eight-years-old. I am now almost 68. I have been in all kinds of boats, in all kinds of water. From a 9-foot Kayak to a 550-foot square rigger underway with full sail to a classic ocean liner of 1053-feet and 35-foot draft meant to cross the Atlantic in four days, plus all kinds of outboard and inboard boats, and every time I am out in a boat I LEARN SOMETHING NEW. I am not kidding. You are not going to master all aspects of boating in a week or two. But it is great fun when things go well, the weather is nice, the company is nice, and you are out there almost alone in beautiful places.

jimh
Posts: 6642
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:25 pm
Location: Michigan, Lower Peninsula
Contact:

Re: Boating Newbie

Postby jimh » Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:26 pm

If you really want a boat that is suitable for going out in Galveston Bay in bad weather, go down to the port and look around for the pilot boat GALVESTON. It should look something like this:

Image
The pilot boat GALVESTON. About 70-feet and powered by twin 1,300-HP diesel jet-drives.

User avatar
Acassidy
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:25 pm
Location: Galveston, Texas

Re: Boating Newbie

Postby Acassidy » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:57 pm

Jimh great information here and you crack me up.
Archie

Echo4Hotel
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:34 pm

Re: Boating Newbie

Postby Echo4Hotel » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:08 pm

Thank you all for taking the time to provide the advice. I appreciate it.