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whalersman posted 12-24-2002 06:38 PM ET (US)   Profile for whalersman   Send Email to whalersman  
OEM Swivel Seats Revisited

I have been doing a lot of research on the original Swivel Seats for the 1980s Outrages which would also include some of the 1980s Revenges.

Here is what I have found. If anyone has any further information, please let me know.

There were two styles of Swivel Seats used in the 1980s. One was made by Springfield for sure and the other was questionable. There have been other reports here on continuouswave stating the other chair may have been made by Todd. I sent Todd an email with a photo of a pair of the seats in question, here is their response.

Sir: We thank you for your interest in our line of products, however the
seat in question is not a Todd seat it is a Wise seat. Have a good day.

So, I have come to the conclusion from the response by Todd above, that the other seat was in fact made by Wise. Unfortunately I can find no Web Site for Wise nor any Swivel Seats made by Wise other then their folding marine chair lineup.

Here is the description and some of the differences between the two Swivel Seats.

Springfield:
1. 15 fixed height pedestal, 2 7/8 diameter post, 6 bolt hole pattern on bottom of the base, and a fairly high dome on the base itself.
2.. Swivel handle has aluminum knob with the name of Springfield and located on the starboard side. Unscrew the knob and the seat will swivel.
3. The Slider is a separate piece from the Swivel and has an 18 aluminum bar that is operated by reaching down with both hands on each side of the seat, pulling up the lever, and then sliding the seat fore or aft. The seat itself has a recess in the bottom to accommodate the slider.
4. The seat also has an aluminum fishing gimbal that is mounted on the front of the slider and in front of the seat and is screwed on with 2 screws. This gimbal I assume may not have been included in some, if not all, of the Revenges with this Springfield seat.
5. The seat itself is stamped on the bottom, Springfield, Chair Mold #3.
6. The seat itself appears to be hollow as you can almost see through it (transparent).

Wise:
1.15 fixed height pedestal, 2 1/2 diameter post, 8 bolt hole pattern on the bottom of the base and almost no dome whatsoever.
2. Swivel mechanism and slider is one piece unit. The swivel handle is an oval shaped piece of plastic and is located on the starboard side. Unscrew the handle and the seat will swivel. The handle for the slider is also an oval shaped piece of plastic and in located on the port side. Unscrew the knob and slide the chair fore or aft.
3. The fishing gimbal is made of two aluminum brackets welded onto the slider and has a plastic gimbal. The brackets cannot be removed unless you cut them off.
4. The seat itself is flat on the bottom where the Swivel/Slider is mounted and attached with 4 screws. I cannot find a name anywhere on the seat.
5. The bottom of seat itself is foam filled. I cannot see through it (not transparent). I do not know if the upper part of the chair is completely filled with foam or not.

Both chairs are very similar in size and shape with the exception of the height of the back of the seats. The Wise is approximately 1 taller. I find this to be a little more comfortable on my back.

The Good News is that the Springfield seats are still available. They are called the Yachtsman Chair package (complete with pedestal, swivel, slider, chair, and cushions), or if you just want the chair, the Yachtsman II chair (mold #3, Springfield part # 1060410-S).

The color may have changed slightly through the years. I have not mentioned the color of any of these chairs as it is hard to determine the original colors through the years of fading and use. I have also not mentioned the cushions here either as I dont know how many different variations their might have been. I do know that the cushions were fastened on with snaps, and the amount and placement of these snaps did vary.

The Bad News is that the Wise seat is no longer available that I can find.
Also, the two chair packages (chairs,swivels, sliders, and or pedestals), cannot be interchanged unless you are really creative.

Some people tend to believe that the only seat used in all 1980 Outrages was the Wise seat with the 8 bolt hole pedestal, and in the 1990s, the Springfield seat with the 6 bolt hole pedestal. I do not find this to be true. According to people I have talked to, the many photos that I have viewed, and Boston Whalers own 1988 catalog, Boston Whaler and/or the dealers, used both types of seats during the 1980s.

For those of you who have the 1988 catalog, bottom of page 30, there are two photos. One of an Outrage 18 and one of the Outrage 20. Both these photos show Swivel Seats with high the domed pedestals. These are Springfield. If you look really close at the upper left photo on the same page, of the Outrage 18, you will see a plastic oval knob on the port side of the seat, this indicates a Wise Seat. Again, both seats are being illustrated.

Same catalog, page 2 and 3 shows a photo of an Outrage 22. The seats are more easily identified here by the flatter style pedestal and plastic fishing gimbals. Also the 8 bolt hole pattern on the pedestal base, definitely Wise. On page 33 of same catalog, second photo down, the Outrage 22 has the higher domed pedestal and the aluminum knob for the swivel mechanism, definitely Springfield. Again, both seats are being illustrated.

I believe if you look close at the Revenges in this catalog, you will find the same to be true. They use both types of seats. I guess it was a matter of what the dealer had in stock, or on which part of the stock order these seats happen to come from at a particular time.

Conclusion:
So, according to Boston Whalers own catalog, it is apparent to me that both types of seats were used during the 1980s in both the Outrage and Revenge models.

Also from what I have seen, Boston Whaler usually did not ship their boats to the dealers with the seats already installed. Installation of the seats was left up to the dealers in most cases unless the boat was specifically ordered from the factory a certain way. In doing it this way, the dealers were able to provide their customers with the options they wanted; example; Standard Swivel Seats, Teak Reversible Pilot Seat, Leaning Post, or the Super Leaning Post with various options. Otherwise, there would be too many holes in the floor of the boat from changing out all the different seating options.

I have both types of seats in my garage ready to be installed. I havent decided which set is going to be the winner. I like the Wise as it has a taller back and is foam filled which might make better insulation during colder times. On the other hand, all the parts for the Springfield are still available( except the fishing gimbal and some of the other parts may have also been superseded), just in case anything should happen to the originals. I am leaning towards the Springfield for this reason. Also, the Springfield has less holes to drill into the floor, 12 instead of 16.

If anyone has any other input, facts, or knowledge, concerning the Original Swivel Seats from the 1980s Outrages, please post a reply here.

Dick posted 12-24-2002 06:58 PM ET (US)     Profile for Dick  Send Email to Dick     
Good research.

I was a Whaler dealer in the early to mid 80s. All of the boats did come from the factory with seating installed unless a bare hull was ordered.
I would suspect that the use of both Springfield and Wise had more to do with availability than anythig else. If you have boats coming off the line and you can't get one brand of seat you go to the other.

Need to add Garelick to the seat list now.

Dick

hauptjm posted 12-26-2002 12:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for hauptjm    
Whalersman, great insight! I have the original swivel seats in my 1985OR. I assumed these were Todd as well. Probably, because they are commonly available today. Believe it or not, I have heard of Wise, but cannot remember why. Maybe I had a boat or spent time on a boat that had them. Based on your description, I do own a boat with Wise seats now.

As far as quality and comfort, I love mine. I've always been torn between wanting an RPS and keeping my seats: the seats win for several reason. As I said, mine are original (17-18 years old) and still in perfect condition. Mechanically, all slides and controls work and are intact. The gimbals may be made of a plastic, but mine have been used quite a bit by myself and the previous owner, and they are in perfect working condition.

I'll dig around as well, and see if I can add anything to the search.

hauptjm posted 12-26-2002 02:22 PM ET (US)     Profile for hauptjm    
Whalersman, I too found the same results when trying to find recent versions on a Wise chair. Interstingly, check out West Marine's online catalog. The "West Brand" chair looks more like the chair I have than any other brand. Maybe, Wise now manufacturers them for label branding. As far as the pedestals are concerned, it looks like there are several manufacturers that you could utilize that provide a quality product.
Barry posted 12-26-2002 02:26 PM ET (US)     Profile for Barry  Send Email to Barry     
For information on Wise products you could try writing or calling them. From what I understand they don't have a web site.

The Wise Co.
472 W. 9th Street
Rector, AR 72461
800-759-5769

Tom W Clark posted 12-26-2002 02:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Joe,

That is really excellent research and well presented. I'm sure it will help clear up some confusion on the subject. But let me make a few observations.

You cannot use ther catalogs as presice way of determioning what was used when. It helps to be sure, but photos were often recycled for newer catalogs and is not surpising to find photos in one year's catalog that were taken many years before.

I went back and looked at the 1988 catalog. The photos on page 30 were probably current producton models. The phtoo on page 2 and 3 is a few years older. It is my suspicion that Whaler used Wise as their supplier up until 1986 or 1987 an then switched to Springfiel for whatever reason.

It may also true that some dealers installed Wise seats they had in inventory at theior dealerships on boats that would otherwise have has Springfield seats.

Tom W Clark posted 12-26-2002 02:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Yes, Wise is still very much alive and kicking and selling lots of seats, but they don't seem to make the small 2 1/2" pedestals anymore. I would guess that the industry has moved to a standard size of 2 7/8" and they have followed suit.

The closest Wise product I could find was this: http://www.bartswatersports.com/catalog.asp?P=5444

whalersman posted 12-28-2002 06:03 PM ET (US)     Profile for whalersman  Send Email to whalersman     
Thanks,
Dick, hauptjm, Barry, and Tom.

Tom, I have read many of your past posting about the catalogs not being up to date photo wise and I do agree.

I guess I left out a part in the Conclusion that I had added early in the post and I should not have left it out in the conclusion.

"Some people tend to believe that the only seat used in all 1980 Outrages was the Wise seat with the 8 bolt hole pedestal, and in the 1990s, the Springfield seat with the 6 bolt hole pedestal. I do not find this to be true. According to people I have talked to, the many photos that I have viewed, and Boston Whalers own 1988 catalog, Boston Whaler and/or the dealers, used both types of seats during the 1980s."

Sorry I was unclear in my Conclusion as my Conclusion was based on everything I have learned from other people, photos I have seen, "AND" Boston Whalers own catalogs.

Thanks again everyone....
Joe

doobee posted 12-29-2002 09:29 PM ET (US)     Profile for doobee  Send Email to doobee     
when i worked at Whaler there was a problem with the design of some Springfield pedestal seats that caused them to fail prematurely. It was eventually corrected but Whaler had to go to another vendor and they didn't go back to springfield. i thought todd was the substitute vendor. pompanette was a vendor for a while, but i think that was prior to springfield. it was common for Whaler to have several different vendors for key items so they would not get stuck in the event of a shortage.
Shadowcatcher posted 01-03-2003 03:44 AM ET (US)     Profile for Shadowcatcher  Send Email to Shadowcatcher     
I have an all OEM 1989 Outrage 18 -- not sure which seats I have, but they are the weak link on the boat.

Because they are completely hallow, the bottom has completely cracked out. Also, the plastic insert between the post and swivel mechanism didn't last. This boat only has 350 hours of use on the original engine.

I am looking for something just as compact, but of better quality. The Garelick Ultimate Helmsan seat looks good, but not cheap at $300 each. Has anyone tried this or another brand with good results?

Thanks, --Brian

whalersman posted 01-03-2003 01:31 PM ET (US)     Profile for whalersman  Send Email to whalersman     
Shadowcatcher,

From my description above, you should be able to tell which seats you have. I assume your boat is in stoarge under shrink wrap for the winter..

However, from your description of the plastic bushing between the pedestal post and swivel, you have the Springfield seat, Mold No. 3.

I did not mention this bushing before so I will do it now. The Wise seat had no bushing. It was a metal to metal installation. The Springfield seat had a 2 7/8" black plastic bushing. Springfield is in the process of revising their Web page so they do not have this bushing listed at this time. They did however have it listed several weeks ago but I did not get the part number at that time.

There is an outfit called eders.com that stocks these bushings at $7.96 each:
www.eders.com/catalog/showdetl.cfm?&DID=9&User_ID=759698&st=5588&st2=-69539033&st3=60837119&Product_ID=6430&CATID=14809
They also sel l the Yachtsman II Chair for $79.61 each:
www.eders.com/catalog/showdetl.cfm?&DID=9&Product_ID=6486&CATID=14812

Cabela's sells this same chair for $59.99 but you have to call their specail order department and order this chair under Springfields part # 1060410-S which you can verify on Springfields Web page:
www.springfieldgrp.com/productdetail.php?prodid=93&subcat1=Rotational%20Molded%20Chairs

As doobee mentioned above, maybe your boat received a pair of the problem seats during that vintage. You should not have a problem with a replacement chair from Springfield. If you still have the original cushions and they are in good condition, I think it would be cheaper for you just to replace the Springfield seat and the bushings and thus keeping your boat in the original tradition.

Whatever you decide, Good Luck and I hope this helped.

Shadowcatcher posted 01-04-2003 02:00 AM ET (US)     Profile for Shadowcatcher  Send Email to Shadowcatcher     
Thanks for the info Whalersman! I had written the seats off. My seat cushions are in excellent shape, so I'm happy to keep them and replace the seat.

My boat also came with the rod holders which are permanently stored in the basement because they were totally obnoxious in such a tight seating configuration.

One of these days I will get photos of the boat -- on the water -- to Jim for Cetacia...

--Brian

Warren H posted 01-04-2003 08:13 AM ET (US)     Profile for Warren H  Send Email to Warren H     
Whalersman:

I have a 1993 21' Walkaround with two white plastic swivel seats. While someone was leaning on the edge of the port one, we crashed into a wave and the seat broke. Does your research relate to the early 90's boats?

Thanks:
Warren H.

whalersman posted 01-04-2003 12:31 PM ET (US)     Profile for whalersman  Send Email to whalersman     
Warren H,

Many Springfield seats were used on the Revenge too. Especially from 1990 to around 1995.

Look on the bottom of the Seat and you should see embossed in the plastic somewhere,
"Springfield, Chair Mold #3". You should also see a date stamp which is contained in 3 small circles.
If it does not say Springfield anywhere, then you obviously have another brand of chair.

Let us know what you find out.

Ventura16 posted 01-04-2003 12:41 PM ET (US)     Profile for Ventura16  Send Email to Ventura16     
I just received the 2003 Bass Pro Shops Master Catalog and it has a variey of Wise pedestal seats in it. They are quite similar to the Garelick seats which came in my Whaler.

Tom

Kingsteven18 posted 01-05-2003 10:10 AM ET (US)     Profile for Kingsteven18  Send Email to Kingsteven18     
If you are lucky enough to find some of the oldest Pompanette bucket seats, they are made of fiberglass and coated with gelcoat. They are probably the best you'll ever find, and are as good now as the day they were made. I have 4 of them tucked away and it would take a fortune to pry a pair from me. Steve

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