170 MONTAUK Stern Cleat Screws
170 MONTAUK Stern Cleat Screws
Hi. I am upgrading my 2003 170 Montauk with Atwood 8-inch stern cleats, but I'm uncertain as to the correct screws to use, beyond the 1/4-inch called for by Atwood. From the wood locating diagram I once downloaded for my Montauk, I understand wood is there. But when looking at the online construction diagrams for newer years which show the stern cleats ( the 2003 construction diagrams do not), the parts list calls for 1/4-20 x 1.25 machine screws. I triple checked this. But that seems unintuitive given there is wood beneath and no room of course for any receiving bolt. Since I only want to do this once, and do it correctly, I would appreciate anyone's knowledge on this topic. Thanks!
Re: 170 MONTAUK Stern Cleat Screws
If the assembly drawings and parts list call for a machine screw fastener, the assumption is the backing plate has been pre-drilled and threaded for a machine screw. The use of wood for the backing plate is not intrinsic. The backing plate may be made from metal or from melamine, and both can be tapped for machine screw threads.
I looked at the drawings available, but I did not find a "wood locating diagram" for the 2003 170 MONTAUK, and the assembly diagrams do not show any stern cleats. Where are you seeing the stern cleat details in a Boston Whaler engineering drawing? Give a URL to the drawing, if you can, please.
I looked at the drawings available, but I did not find a "wood locating diagram" for the 2003 170 MONTAUK, and the assembly diagrams do not show any stern cleats. Where are you seeing the stern cleat details in a Boston Whaler engineering drawing? Give a URL to the drawing, if you can, please.
Re: 170 MONTAUK Stern Cleat Screws
If you want to add stern cleats to your 170 Montauk be careful in your cleat selection. Ensure that the cleats you choose are high quality stainless steel as good as the factory installed deck hardware on your boat. I think 316 grade stainless steel is normally used by Boston Whaler. You should confirm this. The cleat bases should also be well designed for the cleat size providing ample spacing for the expected loads. The mounting screw steel grade should be the same as the cleat steel grade.
When you select a location for the cleats be careful they not interfere with the day to day use of the boat.
When you select a location for the cleats be careful they not interfere with the day to day use of the boat.
Butch
Re: 170 MONTAUK Stern Cleat Screws
Thanks for both responses thus far. First to Butch; yes I am using the Attwood 8 inch 316 stainless, which I purchased directly from the local BW dealer(Chesapeake, in Grasonville, MD). It is supposed to be and looks identical to those cleats in production boats on their yard. The location I want to use is the exact same location I see on newer boats, centered beneath the side rail, with the aft set of cleat holes centered 5.5 inches forward of the forward-most point of the aft, side rail base. (I hope that reads clearly;I am trying to place them onto the exact same position BW would have done then, or now.)
Jim, as to the drawings. According to BW's web page, the closest year drawing is under the 2002/170 Montauk page. It is drawing # 1689605, with revisions dated May and June of 2002 (attached). It shows several pieces of item "K", which is a 3/8", 3X10 piece of phenolic (is that whaler board?). The only other years I could find similar 'wood locating diagrams' was for 2008 and 2010. In all three cases, the 3x10 phenolic boards, in the locations one would first assume are meant to back the side rails and the stern cleats, are identical. So at first glance it would seem that phenolic boards are what I am dealt. This would leave me with the impression that I could simply look at the screws used on my boat's forward cleat, and/or those used to secure the side rails, but not so fast.........
When looking again at the boat just now and also looking at the hull assembly diagrams (attached), I found that the previously mentioned (5.5 inches above) stern cleat location I made from measuring a dealer's 2017 170, is consistent with the Hull Outfit drawing (the aft pair of screws centered 18 inches from the interior of the transom). This also looks right when you 'eyeball' the stern cleat location with the bilge (as a reference point), both on my boat, and on the drawings (the cleats appear pretty much centered with the bilge). OK, so all is good. BUT, when I then look back at the 'wood locating diagrams', I see three (3) "K" parts of the aforementioned 3x10 phenolic boards. Please keep in mind there are no, repeat, there are no measurements on the wood locating diagrams other than the dimensions of the boards. So from eyeballing the phenolic boards (K) on the wood locating diagram, it looks like the middle "K" phenolic board is what I am shooting for, but it just does not look right. That is, when I look at that center "k" board, it does not look like it could line up at all with the bilge, well forward of the "18" on the hull assembly.
So it seems I now have two questions; the first is making sure I can attach the cleats to a phenolic board, and the second is; if so, then the best screws to use. Sorry to be so wordy but I wanted to be as clear as I could be. Thanks again for the time and thoughts.
Jim, as to the drawings. According to BW's web page, the closest year drawing is under the 2002/170 Montauk page. It is drawing # 1689605, with revisions dated May and June of 2002 (attached). It shows several pieces of item "K", which is a 3/8", 3X10 piece of phenolic (is that whaler board?). The only other years I could find similar 'wood locating diagrams' was for 2008 and 2010. In all three cases, the 3x10 phenolic boards, in the locations one would first assume are meant to back the side rails and the stern cleats, are identical. So at first glance it would seem that phenolic boards are what I am dealt. This would leave me with the impression that I could simply look at the screws used on my boat's forward cleat, and/or those used to secure the side rails, but not so fast.........
When looking again at the boat just now and also looking at the hull assembly diagrams (attached), I found that the previously mentioned (5.5 inches above) stern cleat location I made from measuring a dealer's 2017 170, is consistent with the Hull Outfit drawing (the aft pair of screws centered 18 inches from the interior of the transom). This also looks right when you 'eyeball' the stern cleat location with the bilge (as a reference point), both on my boat, and on the drawings (the cleats appear pretty much centered with the bilge). OK, so all is good. BUT, when I then look back at the 'wood locating diagrams', I see three (3) "K" parts of the aforementioned 3x10 phenolic boards. Please keep in mind there are no, repeat, there are no measurements on the wood locating diagrams other than the dimensions of the boards. So from eyeballing the phenolic boards (K) on the wood locating diagram, it looks like the middle "K" phenolic board is what I am shooting for, but it just does not look right. That is, when I look at that center "k" board, it does not look like it could line up at all with the bilge, well forward of the "18" on the hull assembly.
So it seems I now have two questions; the first is making sure I can attach the cleats to a phenolic board, and the second is; if so, then the best screws to use. Sorry to be so wordy but I wanted to be as clear as I could be. Thanks again for the time and thoughts.
- Attachments
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170-Montauk-Hull-Cutouts-and-Outfit-Assembly-and-Parts-List-2007.pdf- (240.45 KiB) Downloaded 480 times
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- 170-Montauk-Wood-Locating-Models-2002.pdf
- (94.44 KiB) Downloaded 480 times
Re: 170 MONTAUK Stern Cleat Screws
A material described as 3/8-inch thick phenolic is used for the backing plate, per the drawing and part list. Phenolic sheet is normally also described by certain grade marking, such as G-7, G-9, G-10 and G-11, and other grades. Each grade has certain material properties, such as strength, electrical insulation, ease of fabrication, and so on. A good short description is given at
http://www.boedeker.com/ilamg_p.htm
That Boston Whaler selected an appropriate grade of phenolic sheet to fabricate their backing plates is very likely a safe assumption. The term "Whaler Board" is probably not trademarked, and it likely just refers to a particular grade of phenolic board.
The drawings cited (and attached above) seem to give clear guidance about where the OEM cleat should be installed by reference to the mounting holes. Sometimes if a very strong lamp is used to backlight the hull, it is possible to visually detect where a backing plate is installed by causing the light to hit the surface at very acute angles which might permit minor surface deviations to be seen that otherwise are obscured in normal, diffused lighting.
I am not clear about your boat's present status. Does the boat have stern cleats now? Are you just going to replace them?
Or, are there no stern cleats on the boat now and you have to make the initial installation.
In either instance, you should use the recommended machine screw fastener. I don't think the phenolic board is pre-drilled and threaded before it is laminated into the hull. You could never then drill a hole in the hull with sufficient accuracy to hit the pre-drilled threaded hole in the backing plate. Instead, I would expect that the phenolic board is embedded in the hull without being drilled and tapped. Then pilot holes are drilled in the correct locations for the cleat. Then the pilot hole is enlarged slightly only in the gel coat layers so that the tap does not try to thread through the gel coat layer. The gel coat layer is brittle can can easily be cracked if you try to force a threaded fastener through it. Then the remainder of the hole down to the the phenolic is enlarged slightly so that it appropriate for the tap to be used. Then the phenolic sheet is tapped.
Contact Boston Whaler customer support for more details. I am sure they will have some helpful advice for you. If they tell you they do not recommend doing this and you should have an authorized dealer perform this task due to concern about the hull warranty, you can weigh that advice, as well.
http://www.boedeker.com/ilamg_p.htm
That Boston Whaler selected an appropriate grade of phenolic sheet to fabricate their backing plates is very likely a safe assumption. The term "Whaler Board" is probably not trademarked, and it likely just refers to a particular grade of phenolic board.
The drawings cited (and attached above) seem to give clear guidance about where the OEM cleat should be installed by reference to the mounting holes. Sometimes if a very strong lamp is used to backlight the hull, it is possible to visually detect where a backing plate is installed by causing the light to hit the surface at very acute angles which might permit minor surface deviations to be seen that otherwise are obscured in normal, diffused lighting.
I am not clear about your boat's present status. Does the boat have stern cleats now? Are you just going to replace them?
Or, are there no stern cleats on the boat now and you have to make the initial installation.
In either instance, you should use the recommended machine screw fastener. I don't think the phenolic board is pre-drilled and threaded before it is laminated into the hull. You could never then drill a hole in the hull with sufficient accuracy to hit the pre-drilled threaded hole in the backing plate. Instead, I would expect that the phenolic board is embedded in the hull without being drilled and tapped. Then pilot holes are drilled in the correct locations for the cleat. Then the pilot hole is enlarged slightly only in the gel coat layers so that the tap does not try to thread through the gel coat layer. The gel coat layer is brittle can can easily be cracked if you try to force a threaded fastener through it. Then the remainder of the hole down to the the phenolic is enlarged slightly so that it appropriate for the tap to be used. Then the phenolic sheet is tapped.
Contact Boston Whaler customer support for more details. I am sure they will have some helpful advice for you. If they tell you they do not recommend doing this and you should have an authorized dealer perform this task due to concern about the hull warranty, you can weigh that advice, as well.
Re: 170 MONTAUK Stern Cleat Screws
Thanks very much. I'll contact BW. And yes, these cleats will be newly added. Understand your very accurate description and again, thank you.
Re: 170 MONTAUK Stern Cleat Screws
All,
I received a very prompt and complete response from Chuck Bennett at BW. Looks like I can add the stern cleats, but AFT of the aft side rail base. There apparently is phenolic board from the transom thru to the aft aide rail base, but not forward of it (until I suppose one gets to the next side rail base). He also informed me to use the machine screws and treat the phenolic board as I would aluminum. Have to tap a hole for the ¼-20 X 1.25” PFH (phillips flat head) machine screws. So it looks like I am in business and will get to it within the next two weeks.
The only concern I have (and its a small one, given that I'll be picking up secure aft cleats over the existing rail stanchions) is if I'll be losing much in the way of a foothold for entry/exit via the stern. I do not have as many hours in the boat as many of you, so I'd be interested in any opinions by 'old hands'. Frankly, on the port side I can see some benefit as having a hand-hold (of sorts) for entry from the water. I know I am being picky on this, but on such a small and nice boat as these 170's are, I'd like to do it right.
Thanks again!
I received a very prompt and complete response from Chuck Bennett at BW. Looks like I can add the stern cleats, but AFT of the aft side rail base. There apparently is phenolic board from the transom thru to the aft aide rail base, but not forward of it (until I suppose one gets to the next side rail base). He also informed me to use the machine screws and treat the phenolic board as I would aluminum. Have to tap a hole for the ¼-20 X 1.25” PFH (phillips flat head) machine screws. So it looks like I am in business and will get to it within the next two weeks.
The only concern I have (and its a small one, given that I'll be picking up secure aft cleats over the existing rail stanchions) is if I'll be losing much in the way of a foothold for entry/exit via the stern. I do not have as many hours in the boat as many of you, so I'd be interested in any opinions by 'old hands'. Frankly, on the port side I can see some benefit as having a hand-hold (of sorts) for entry from the water. I know I am being picky on this, but on such a small and nice boat as these 170's are, I'd like to do it right.
Thanks again!